Eligibility Rules, Okay

[gastric]

Agreed, at present it will make no discernible difference to supporter numbers. That will only be seen in the long-term, with future generations.

Fly, I completely agree with you. One of my frustrations is that if Nationalists are to feel that NI could possibly be an option for them in the future, the work has to start now. You commented before that I am naive and you could certainly be right, but I believe that National Sporting Organisations should try to build bridges between communities and should be proactive and transparent in doing this. Leadership is also needed, and NB, this is why I have shown such an interest in the NI team as I feel much more could be done now.

[Not Brazil]

Leadership is also needed, and NB, this is why I have shown such an interest in the NI team as I feel much more could be done now.

Like what?

If you give me specifics, at least I can raise them.

[Not Brazil]

Ignoring the morality of it, of what rule would it have fallen foul though?

geysir's credability really has taken a battering over the past 24 hours...go easy on him.

[DannyInvincible]

Therein lies the thrust of the rumblings I'm hearing - couched with cries of "equality".

Ah, I think I get you now. So some deluded bright spark in the IFA seeks FIFA not to apply their 2007 proposal, but to deem Irish nationality a shared nationality so that article 6 would then apply in respect of it, thus effectively granting the IFA unique and special treatment? That'd be downright bizarre (not to mention diplomatically contentious) considering FIFA have never proposed anything of the sort. Who thought of this masterplan? Same guy who thought going to CAS over Kearns was a good idea?

[Not Brazil]

Ah, I think I get you now. So some deluded bright spark in the IFA seeks FIFA not to apply their 2007 proposal, but to deem Irish nationality a shared nationality so that article 6 would then apply in respect of it, thus effectively granting the IFA unique and special treatment? That'd be downright bizarre (not to mention diplomatically contentious) considering FIFA have never proposed anything of the sort. Who thought of this masterplan? Same guy who thought going to CAS over Kearns was a good idea?

Not sure where the idea came from.

But, at face value, it's a lot more joined up than what has gone before.

A test on Article 6.

Ultimately, very dangerous for the IFA.

[Closed Account]

I'd like to see the IFA approach them with whatever sort of proposal they think FIFA initially suggested or possibly with a brand new proposal. They'd be made laughing stocks of.

[DannyInvincible]

Not sure where the idea came from.

But, at face value, it's a lot more joined up than what has gone before.

A test on Article 6.

Ultimately, very dangerous.

It's an interesting tack but I'm not sure how one would go about convincing FIFA (or anyone for that matter) that Irish nationality is or should be a shared nationality. It's not, nor can it be, considering it is dispensed by the Irish state and not the British state. That's pretty straightforward, isn't it?

Why do you say it's dangerous exactly? Dangerous for the IFA as in potentially self-destructive or something?

[Closed Account]

Not sure where the idea came from.

But, at face value, it's a lot more joined up than what has gone before.

A test on Article 6.

Ultimately, very dangerous.
But it's not joined up at all? There are 2 different ways of looking at it, and both are massively flawed.

[Not Brazil]

I'd like to see the IFA approach them with whatever sort of proposal they think FIFA initially suggested or possibly with a brand new proposal. They'd be made laughing stocks of.

Why's that Joe?

[Not Brazil]

But it's not joined up at all? There are 2 different ways of looking at it, and both are massively flawed.

Yeah - that's why I think it would be a dangerous stategy.

[ArdeeBhoy]

If the IFA 'screw up' in the way suggested, then surely it would be more by accident than design.

Unless they've taken a certain person on as a consultant, wouldn't credit them with having the intellectual means to do so...

[CraftyToePoke]

It would certainly raise some eyebrows from afar in that regard.

A one team situation is off the agenda now, given that the current rules allow anyone born in Northern Ireland to have a choice.

That right of choice must be upheld.

I don't think you would have go too afar for the raised eyebrows, not a step further than the core support I'd imagine.

[The Fly]

Fly, I completely agree with you. One of my frustrations is that if Nationalists are to feel that NI could possibly be an option for them in the future, the work has to start now.

Agreed. Although many do at present anyway, and will no doubt continue to do so in the future. I couldn't tell you exactly how many are in the current senior squad, but I'm sure NB would know.



You commented before that I am naive and you could certainly be right, but I believe that National Sporting Organisations should try to build bridges between communities and should be proactive and transparent in doing this. Leadership is also needed, and NB, this is why I have shown such an interest in the NI team as I feel much more could be done now.

A little naive perhaps regarding NI matters. I wouldn't worry about it though - ignorance can be bliss on that count.

Your point pertaining to the overall aim of any sporting organisation is correct, but by the same token they are not public bodies. Of course the IFA should institute that final change regarding the flag and anthem, I think every rational person can agree with that. But the benefits of such a change, as I stated earlier, will only be seen in the long term, and even then this issue will still apply.

[Closed Account]

Why's that Joe?Well they are either
A) Going back to the initial offer by FIFA, to have everyone born on Ireland eligible for NI. This was approved by FAI, so we have to assume necessary provisions would be put in place RE article 6. This would be pointless now for the same reason it was then.

B)
The IFA go to FIFA with their own 'island of ireland' idea, thus impacting article 6 and bringing about what you've alluded to. Why would FIFA ever agree to this and what reasons would the IFA even suggest it?

[DannyInvincible]

The IFA already attempted to argue to CAS that Irish nationality was a shared nationality but failed to establish a sufficient factual or legal basis for their argument (see paragraph 79 of Kearns). Why do they think they might be able to argue it more convincingly now? :confused:

I'm baffled. It's simply not possible. It doesn't make sense; it defies not just the notion of national sovereignty, but also logic. That's why it took me so long to actually comprehend exactly what NB was talking about. It's difficult to comprehend such anti-logic (not on your part, NB). But not only that, if the IFA were to somehow convince FIFA to regard Irish nationality as a shared nationality, it would spark uproar within the nationalist community. Does someone at the IFA think this would be a good way of encouraging nationalists to take an interest in NI/the IFA? After how dragging Kearns to CAS made them look? ****ing hell...

[The Fly]

I'm baffled. It's simply not possible. It doesn't make sense; it defies not just the notion of national sovereignty, but also logic.

It's difficult to comprehend such anti-logic.

You have to enter here first...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y

[SkStu]

Pa-palm... I'm pretty sure someone has earned it... :)

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/pope_face_palm.jpg

[geysir]

Ignoring the morality of it, of what rule would it have fallen foul though?
The anti-discrimination is in the statutes under Article 3
“Discrimination of any kind against a country, private person or group of people on account of ethnic origin, gender, language, religion, politics or any other reason is strictly prohibited and punishable by suspension or expulsion.”

FIFA's goal is to abolish all form of discrimination in football. There is little doubt that an Association bringing in a racial quota would incur sanctions. But I presume the questionable deed (racial quotas) would have to be done. The French Federation were possibly just at a proposal stage by the time it leaked out into the public. Perhaps some inside the FFF thought that an association could whatever they wanted in their selection policy for weeding out a proportion of kids who were more likely to be disloyal.
Are there not claims that the IFA ignored the merits of some Derry kids? That's a hard one to prove concretely and then you face counter charges of being a mope. Probably you have to add IFA incompetence into it as well. It's difficult to escape the incompetence factor. When you have IFA incompetence combined with a IFA selection policy in an area with a past history of discrimination with a proportion of it institutionalised, it's quite rational to ponder about the IFA's ability to get itself into another mess.

[Not Brazil]

Agreed. Although many do at present anyway, and will no doubt continue to do so in the future. I couldn't tell you exactly how many are in the current senior squad, but I'm sure NB would know.

I don't know how many Nationalists are in the squad.

Bwagner offered a figure of how many Catholics are in the squad though in post #3628.

Not sure how he/she knows that.

[ifk101]

The anti-discrimination is in the statutes under Article 3
“Discrimination of any kind against a country, private person or group of people on account of ethnic origin, gender, language, religion, politics or any other reason is strictly prohibited and punishable by suspension or expulsion.”

FIFA's goal is to abolish all form of discrimination in football. There is little doubt that an Association bringing in a racial quota would incur sanctions. But I presume the questionable deed (racial quotas) would have to be done. The French Federation were possibly just at a proposal stage by the time it leaked out into the public. Perhaps some inside the FFF thought that an association could whatever they wanted in their selection policy for weeding out a proportion of kids who were more likely to be disloyal.
Are there not claims that the IFA ignored the merits of some Derry kids? That's a hard one to prove concretely and then you face counter charges of being a mope. Probably you have to add IFA incompetence into it as well. It's difficult to escape the incompetence factor. When you have IFA incompetence combined with a IFA selection policy in an area with a past history of discrimination with a proportion of it institutionalised, it's quite rational to ponder about the IFA's ability to get itself into another mess.

There isn't "discrimination of any kind" in NB's proposal for the Northern Ireland FA. It's a pointless exercise but not discriminatory in its nature.

[Not Brazil]

if the IFA were to somehow convince FIFA to regard Irish nationality as a shared nationality, it would spark uproar within the nationalist community.

But is it not a shared Nationality, in practice?

A Nationality from birth available to people in two jurisdictions - two territories in FIFA speak.

Why should Republic of Ireland Nationals be treated any differently to anyone else?

[Not Brazil]

Are there not claims that the IFA ignored the merits of some Derry kids? That's a hard one to prove concretely and then you face counter charges of being a mope. Probably you have to add IFA incompetence into it as well. It's difficult to escape the incompetence factor. When you have IFA incompetence combined with a IFA selection policy in an area with a past history of discrimination with a proportion of it institutionalised, it's quite rational to ponder about the IFA's ability to get itself into another mess.

Such mopery.

[geysir]

Well they are either
A) Going back to the initial offer by FIFA, to have everyone born on Ireland eligible for NI. This was approved by FAI, so we have to assume necessary provisions would be put in place RE article 6. This would be pointless now for the same reason it was then.

B)
The IFA go to FIFA with their own 'island of ireland' idea, thus impacting article 6 and bringing about what you've alluded to. Why would FIFA ever agree to this and what reasons would the IFA even suggest it?

There were 2 compromises offered by FIFA way back in 2007. The first compromise contained restrictions similar to article 18, the FAI rejected that.
The 2nd compromise was the 2 way open eligibility with the requirement that the 2 associations work out the details. The FAI accepted that compromise offer by FIFA but there is no indication what criteria for eligibility the FAI would accept. Based on their blank rejection of the first compromise, the FAI most probably would not have agreed to the eligibility restrictions contained in article 16 or article 18, being contained in the 2nd compromise.
We can only speculate what eligibility criteria the FAI would have accepted for the 2nd compromise but I suspect nothing less than a fundamental born on the island of Ireland eligibility and it follows that there most probably would have to be a new eligibility statute.

[Not Brazil]

There isn't "discrimination of any kind" in NB's proposal for the Northern Ireland FA. It's a pointless exercise but not discriminatory in its nature.

Being honest with with yourself and true to your beliefs is never pointless.

Removing shysters akin to McClean from our development squads from Under19 upwards is a key objective.

If people want to be dishonest with themselves, that'll be on their shoulders.

[geysir]

There isn't "discrimination of any kind" in NB's proposal for the Northern Ireland FA. It's a pointless exercise but not discriminatory in its nature.
I have no defined opinion on what the proposal is. There is a degree of discrimination in it but I have not claimed that that discrimination is unjust or prejudicial.
My first point made a few days ago in relation to this proposal was that the IFA would be very likely to balls it up for the reasons I have repeated.

[Not Brazil]

I have no defined opinion on what the proposal is. There is a degree of discrimination in it but I have not claimed that that discrimination is unjust or prejudicial.
My first point made a few days ago in relation to this proposal was that the IFA would be very likely to balls it up for the reasons I have repeated.

Ethnic cleansing I think you referred to, mo chara.

[ifk101]

Being honest with with yourself and true to your beliefs is never pointless.

Removing shysters akin to McClean from our development squads from Under19 upwards is a key objective.

If people want to be dishonest with themselves, that'll be on their shoulders.

But ....


A player choosing to go down the FAI road at Under 19, can switch to the IFA if things change for him or don't work out with the FAI at a later date.

Why would this be acceptable? Is this not a case of players being dishonest with themselves and not true to their beliefs? If they are willingness to play for the Northern Ireland FA after to failing to make the grade with the association that is true to their beliefs, is this not simply a case of career enhancing in the same manner as a player that agrees to your proposal but decides to switch at a later date?

[ArdeeBhoy]

And he still hasn't mastered 'Multi-quote'...



Not to mention inventing a storm in a teacup.

[geysir]

Ethnic cleansing I think you referred to, mo chara.
As I wrote I have no defined opinion on this proposal.
Some time ago I wrote on how such a proposal could be perceived if it were put into practice.
'This pledging your allegiance to NI plan at the age of 18 could well be regarded as ethnic cleansing, cleaning out the players who are not yet decided as to where their first choice lies. A meritocracy being trumped by an exhibition of servility.'

A speculation about a possible perception based on a conditional is not a defined opinion. However, judging by your tendency to personalise your replies in a self righteous haughty manner, I suspect the chances of that happening with the IFA are high.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha ha, classic last sentence there geysir.

For all your other 'faults'. As defined by our mutual friend.

[Not Brazil]

As I wrote I have no defined opinion on this proposal.
Some time ago I wrote on how such a proposal could be perceived if it were put into practice.
'This pledging your allegiance to NI plan at the age of 18 could well be regarded as ethnic cleansing, cleaning out the players who are not yet decided as to where their first choice lies. A meritocracy being trumped by an exhibition of servility.'



It coould only be construed as "ethnic cleansing" by idiotic people.

Having a preference to select and develop players, at aged 18 and upwards, who have expressed a clear ambition to represent the Association at Senior International level is not, by any rational stretch of even the most vivid of imaginations, "ethnic cleansing".




Why would this be acceptable? Is this not a case of players being dishonest with themselves and not true to their beliefs? If they are willingness to play for the Northern Ireland FA after to failing to make the grade with the association that is true to their beliefs, is this not simply a case of career enhancing in the same manner as a player that agrees to your proposal but decides to switch at a later date?

Seriously, have you problems with reading?

Of course it's acceptable - the player will have chased his boyhood dream with the south, before commiting to the Irish Football Association.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ah, the dreams thing. Though the atlas is still desperately needed.

It has been a while I suppose.

[ifk101]

Seriously, have you problems with reading?

Seriously ....


Of course it's acceptable - the player will have chased his boyhood dream with the south, before commiting to the Irish Football Association.

But by switching to Ireland, the player makes his honourable choice by seeking to represent the association true to his beliefs. By subsequently returning to the Northern Ireland FA fold after failing to make the grade, is the player not "dishonest" to himself? Should the player not continue to endeavour for the rest of his playing career to make the Ireland team, rather than falling back on the Northern Ireland FA who are not true to his beliefs?

[DannyInvincible]

The anti-discrimination is in the statutes under Article 3
“Discrimination of any kind against a country, private person or group of people on account of ethnic origin, gender, language, religion, politics or any other reason is strictly prohibited and punishable by suspension or expulsion.”

FIFA's goal is to abolish all form of discrimination in football. There is little doubt that an Association bringing in a racial quota would incur sanctions. But I presume the questionable deed (racial quotas) would have to be done. The French Federation were possibly just at a proposal stage by the time it leaked out into the public. Perhaps some inside the FFF thought that an association could whatever they wanted in their selection policy for weeding out a proportion of kids who were more likely to be disloyal.

Whilst not breaching any of the specific eligibility statutes, what you say is probably true. However, as you highlight, actually proving discrimination would be nigh impossible, especially if the association's strategy was informal and confidential. Then, would NB's proposal actually be discriminatory? Certainly, to use the word in its most neutral sense, selecting players and not selecting others is, by definition, discriminatory. But associations are entitled to select who they wish, or to engage in that form of discrimination, if you will. How does one prove they're engaging in the malign or proscribed form of discrimination where the players' (non-)selections are based on something beyond just the abilities of the players concerned? Could NB's proposal be interpreted as engaging in this malign form of discrimination?


Are there not claims that the IFA ignored the merits of some Derry kids?

There are many people in Derry who perceive an anti-Derry bias within the IFA. That's a bit unfair on the IFA, however; what they're also failing to highlight are the other anti-Derry biases within the FAI, UEFA, FIFA, the Stormont government, the UK government and the EU. :p

[Predator]

But by switching to Ireland, the player makes his honourable choice by seeking to represent the association true to his beliefs. By subsequently returning to the Northern Ireland FA fold after failing to make the grade, is the player not "dishonest" to himself? Should the player not continue to endeavour for the rest of his playing career to make the Ireland team, rather than falling back on the Northern Ireland FA who are not true to his beliefs?It doesn't matter if the player is dishonest as long as he's committed to playing for the IFA and no one else. The dishonesty and integrity gambit is therefore a bit inconsistent.

[Predator]

Here's an idea: The football association of the north east of Ireland could accept the situation, shut up and get on with things. Is it possible that the IFA would face a significant political and social backlash as a result of the pursuit of what NB has described? You'd have to think so.

[DannyInvincible]

But is it not a shared Nationality, in practice?

Neither in theory nor in practice. They are allocated independently of one another by two separate, distinct and sovereign bodies of nationality law. One is not dependent on the other and one need not necessarily be held simultaneously with the other. A NI-born dual British and Irish citizen can renounce his British citizenship but that has no bearing on his Irish citizenship, for example.


Why should Republic of Ireland Nationals be treated any differently to anyone else?

In what sense do you mean? Every nationality is treated as distinct by FIFA in that respective nationalities confer eligibility for the various member associations.

[The Fly]

Is it possible that the IFA would face a significant political and social backlash as a result of the pursuit of what NB has described? You'd have to think so.

I sincerely doubt that.


By subsequently returning to the Northern Ireland FA fold after failing to make the grade, is the player not "dishonest" to himself? Should the player not continue to endeavour for the rest of his playing career to make the Ireland team, rather than falling back on the Northern Ireland FA who are not true to his beliefs?

In an ideal world the answer would be Yes, but back in the real world the answer is No.

But I take it you already knew that.

[DannyInvincible]

It doesn't matter if the player is dishonest as long as he's committed to playing for the IFA and no one else. The dishonesty and integrity gambit is therefore a bit inconsistent.

He can't be too honest either, like Alex Bruce was. ;)

[Predator]

I sincerely doubt that.You doubt the possibility or you doubt that there will be political/social backlash against the IFA? I think it's possible.

[DannyInvincible]

Here's an idea: The football association of the north east of Ireland could accept the situation, shut up and get on with things. Is it possible that the IFA would face a significant political and social backlash as a result of the pursuit of what NB has described? You'd have to think so.

It would be to expose as a sham their recent taking of the mature and responsible approach wherein they finally acknowledged the legitimate identity of Irish nationals born north of the border and accepted to take matters into their own hands like adults by working with that socio-political reality and recognising the onus was on them to convince rather than coerce nationalists to take an interest in them. After Kearns and everything, it's an insult that there appear to be some within the IFA still thinking along these outmoded lines.

Edit: Which pursuit are you referring to, by the way? The declaration proposal or the possible lobbying to FIFA to have Irish nationality regarded as a shared nationality? I was referring to the latter.

[Not Brazil]

But by switching to Ireland, the player makes his honourable choice by seeking to represent the association true to his beliefs. By subsequently returning to the Northern Ireland FA fold after failing to make the grade, is the player not "dishonest" to himself? Should the player not continue to endeavour for the rest of his playing career to make the Ireland team, rather than falling back on the Northern Ireland FA who are not true to his beliefs?

I'll rather have a player who chased his dream with the south and failed, than a player who didn't chase his dream to represent the Football Association of the Republic Of Ireland until after he had represented the Irish Football Association at Under 19 and above.

I believe there is a difference between those players who make choices for fooballing reasons alone, and those who make choices based on "political" reasons.


How does one prove they're engaging in the malign or proscribed form of discrimination where the players' (non-)selections are based on something beyond just the abilities of the players concerned? Could NB's proposal be interpreted as engaging in this malign form of discrimination?


Good luck in proving "malign discrimination" against an Association that selects it's players based, as far as possible, on those expressing a desire to represent them at senior International level - and helps players who have ambitions elsewhere to realise them.

You'd be wasting your time.


Here's an idea: The football association of the north east of Ireland could accept the situation, shut up and get on with things. Is it possible that the IFA would face a significant political and social backlash as a result of the pursuit of what NB has described? You'd have to think so.

A "significant political and social backlash" for having a selection policy centred on players with ambitions to represent the Association at senior International level, and that proactively assists players with ambitions of representing the south in realising their ambitions?

That's funny - I'd welcome that "backlash".:D

Some of you seem to be unable to accept that the IFA can select who they want, providing they are not in breach of FIFA Statutes in doing so.

[Not Brazil]

It would be to expose as a sham their recent taking of the mature and responsible approach wherein they finally acknowledged the legitimate identity of Irish nationals born north of the border and accepted to take matters into their own hands like adults by working with that socio-political reality and recognising the onus was on them to convince rather than coerce nationalists to take an interest in them.

My proposal fully recognises "the legitimate identity of" Republic Of Ireland "nationals born north of the border".

It allows for the IFA having scope to persuade nationalists to take an interest in them, and would dispel any coercion.

In fact, my proposals involve the IFA actively assisting Nationalists born in Northern Ireland to realise their international footballing ambitions upon reaching adulthood - and wishing them well - whilst leaving a return door open.

[The Fly]

You doubt the possibility or you doubt that there will be political/social backlash against the IFA? I think it's possible.

Both, specifically the latter.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Some of you seem to be unable to accept that the IFA can select who they want, providing they are not in breach of FIFA Statutes in doing so.

Like who exactly...

[DannyInvincible]

I believe there is a difference between those players who make choices for fooballing reasons alone, and those who make choices based on "political" reasons.

You prefer them to make them for what you perceive as "political" reasons (like George, presumably) rather than for what you perceive to be footballing reasons (like Bruce, presumably)?


Good luck in proving "malign discrimination" against an Association that selects it's players based, as far as possible, on those expressing a desire to represent them at senior International level - and helps players who have ambitions elsewhere to realise them.

You'd be wasting your time.

I'm not saying it would fall under any of the proscribed forms of discrimination. Even if I was able to prove your proposal as amounting to malign discrimination, I wouldn't bother wasting the time as I have no issue with it in the first place. Personally, I still think your proposal would work, anti-discrimination statutes or not.

[DannyInvincible]

My proposal fully recognises "the legitimate identity of" Republic Of Ireland "nationals born north of the border".

It allows for the IFA having scope to persuade nationalists to take an interest in them, and would dispel any coercion.

In fact, my proposals involve the IFA actively assisting Nationalists born in Northern Ireland to realise their international footballing ambitions upon reaching adulthood - and wishing them well - whilst leaving a return door open.

Don't have any problem with that. Might have been my misunderstanding, sorry; I thought Predator was referring to your mentioning of figures within the IFA considering lobbying FIFA to regard Irish nationality as a shared nationality. I know that's not something you advocate. Your personal declaration proposal is fine, as far as I'm concerned.

[The Fly]

Edit: Which pursuit are you referring to, by the way? The declaration proposal or the possible lobbying to FIFA to have Irish nationality regarded as a shared nationality? I was referring to the latter.

I was referring to the former.

[Not Brazil]

You prefer them to make them for what you perceive as "political" reasons (like George, presumably) rather than for what you perceive to be footballing reasons (like Bruce, presumably)?


I'd simply want the IFA to select and develop players from Under 19 and above who have a desire to represent the Association at Senior International level - whether that be for footballing and/or political reasons.

[Not Brazil]

I thought Predator was referring to your mentioning of figures within the IFA considering lobbying FIFA to regard Irish nationality as a shared nationality.

As I said, that is just a whisper I heard recently - could be some substance to it, could be idle talk.

I'll hopefully get a detailed and balanced insight into current IFA strategy on the issue when I'm in the Ukraine at the end of next month.