Eligibility Rules, Okay

[bwagner]

No Rory Donnelly:

Ross Glendinning
Linfield
18.05.93
5

Connor Brennan
Kilmarnock

2

Defenders

Luke McCullough
Doncaster Rovers
15.02.94
1

Rhys Sharpe
Derby County
17.10.94
2

Adam Thompson
Watford / Southend
28.09.92
10

Rory McKeown
Kilmarnock
08.04.93
9

Jamie Sendles-White
QPR
10.04.94
3

Liam Donnelly
Fulham
07.03.96
2

Midfielders

Carl Winchester
Oldham Athletic
12.04.93
7

Josh Carson
York City
03.06.93
9

David Morgan
Notts Forest
04.07.94
2

Greg Tempest
Notts County
28.12.93
2

Kirk Millar
Oldham Athletic
07.07.92
5

Ryan Brobbell
Middlesbrough / York City
05.03.93
3

Jonny Gorman
Leyton Orient
26.10.92
3

Paul McElroy
Hull City
07.07.94
1

Seanan Clucas
Bristol Rovers
08.11.92
9

Forwards

Shay McCartan
Burnley
18.05.94
--

James Gray
Accrington Stanley
26.06.92
7

Jamie Reid
Exeter City
15.07.94
2

Michael Duffy
Derry City
28.07.94
--

[ArdeeBhoy]

The North's U-21 squad?
:confused:

Are the one's born in Britain 'eligible' for us too...
:rolleyes:

[DannyInvincible]

Did this actually happen though?

I had a quick look and did a word-search through the PDF document (Regulations for the Status and Transfer of Players) mentioned in geysir's post but it doesn't refer to the Montenegro matter at all. I can't see any reference to a window of opportunity permitting declaration for Montenegro by Montenegrin players otherwise already tied to an association, be that to Serbia or an other. There doesn't appear to be any mention of a general rule to cover such a situation either. The only eligibility-related content in that document appears to be a re-iteration of the regulation governing eligibility to play for associations sharing a common nationality.

[geysir]

Did this actually happen though?
Of course it happened, previously capped players declared for Montenegro.
You only suppose there was a restriction. There's absolutely no proof there were any restrictions, not a dickeybird, not even the teenienst weeniest whisper anywhere, to a FIFA/UEFA restriction. I'm sorry Charlie, but I can't put any import on a supposition which just does not make sense.

Article 18 applied as noted in the (reputable) wiki page and any capped player who qualified under article 18 was allowed to declare. It just so happens that Montenegro did not have players capped outside Serbia & Montenegro at senior level, but if they did have, there were no restrictions in place stopping them from availing of the open window as referenced also in the reputable Kosovo news report.
Inconvenient that everything isn't wrapped up in a christmas gift for you I know, but those are the cards we have to use:)

[Charlie Darwin]

Of course it happened, previously capped players declared for Montenegro.
I assumed you'd know I was referring to players capped by nations other than Serbia & Montenegro, since I have already recognised that some of those players made up the first Montenegrin side.


You only suppose there was a restriction. There's absolutely no proof there were any restrictions, not a dickeybird, not even the teenienst weeniest whisper anywhere, to a FIFA/UEFA restriction. I'm sorry Charlie, but I can't put any import on a supposition which just does not make sense.
I suppose nothing except that FIFA would apply the same rules it applies across the board, which state that any player who has represented a member association in a competitive international is not entitled to represent another.


There is a linked reference to a FIFA pdf document on the status transfer of players, maybe there is something more in that document.
But I'm satisfied enough not to pursue it any further :)
Aha, perhaps that is enough to satisfy you, but luckily I am not content to settle for mere easy answers and unsupported statements in wikipedia articles.

Alas, if we dig deeper we find that the document linked in the "reputable" makes no reference whatsoever to an open window of any sort. In fact, it does nothing except restate the existing Rule 18, which we know binds a player to the first association he's represented at the threshhold level.

If we dig deeper still further, and in my lust for truth I have done just that, we discover through the (reputable) New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/sports/soccer/kosovo-wants-a-national-soccer-team-and-to-call-its-players-home.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) that Sepp Blatter has explicitly stated that players like Xherdan Shaqiri would be unable to switch allegiances were a Kosovar team officially recognised. More digging enlightens us to the fact that Sepp Blatter made this claim directly (https://twitter.com/JamesPiotr/status/386822996209725440) to (reputable) New York Times journalist James Montague.

No doubt common sense suggests that it would only be right and fair that all Kosovar expatriates would be given a window of opportunity to declare for their nation. However, relying on FIFA to bring common sense to bear is a fool's errand at the best of times :)

[DannyInvincible]

Isn't it article 6 (formerly 16), and not the old article 18, that is mentioned in the PDF document cited? There is nothing else in the document relating to international eligibility, as far as I can see. That article wouldn't even have applied to the Montenegrin situation as it applies only to associations sharing a common nationality, such as the British associations.

[geysir]

I assumed you'd know I was referring to players capped by nations other than Serbia & Montenegro, since I have already recognised that some of those players made up the first Montenegrin side.


I suppose nothing except that FIFA would apply the same rules it applies across the board, which state that any player who has represented a member association in a competitive international is not entitled to represent another.


Aha, perhaps that is enough to satisfy you, but luckily I am not content to settle for mere easy answers and unsupported statements in wikipedia articles.

Alas, if we dig deeper we find that the document linked in the "reputable" makes no reference whatsoever to an open window of any sort. In fact, it does nothing except restate the existing Rule 18, which we know binds a player to the first association he's represented at the threshhold level.

If we dig deeper still further, and in my lust for truth I have done just that, we discover through the (reputable) New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/sports/soccer/kosovo-wants-a-national-soccer-team-and-to-call-its-players-home.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) that Sepp Blatter has explicitly stated that players like Xherdan Shaqiri would be unable to switch allegiances were a Kosovar team officially recognised. More digging enlightens us to the fact that Sepp Blatter made this claim directly (https://twitter.com/JamesPiotr/status/386822996209725440) to (reputable) New York Times journalist James Montague.

No doubt common sense suggests that it would only be right and fair that all Kosovar expatriates would be given a window of opportunity to declare for their nation. However, relying on FIFA to bring common sense to bear is a fool's errand at the best of times :)
I do appreciate that it's with a heavy heart that you quote from the soccer column in a US newspaper and the disreputable Sepp Blatter, with saying that the Swiss Kosovars would not be allowed.
No matter what others may think, there's no total loss of credibility with using a handy quote from Sepp.
However, what does it take to trump Sepp? a quote from a source in the Daily Sun perhaps? or a Daily Mirror rumour mill piece?:)
In Sporting intelligence (original thinking, informed comment, no froth no spin) (http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2012/12/17/half-the-uns-members-recognise-kosovo-but-its-footballers-remain-in-limbo0171201/)

"FIFA and UEFA have both agreed that players such as Shaqiri and Lazio’s Lorik Cana, who plays for Albania, can play for Kosovo. This would not go down well with the national associations in Albania or Switzerland, who face losing a swathe of top players and the latest inexplicable decision smacks of suiting everyone else bar the isolated Kosovans."

The writer of the piece is Steve Menary the author of ‘Outcasts! The Lands That FIFA Forgot’. Credibility personified.

But of course who knows, maybe you caught the only truthful sentence Sepp has said in the last 5 years :)

The Wiki statement stands, but maybe you can find proof that FIFA issued a restrictive window amnesty. I certainly found no proof of any. I'd say it was not an issue at all before 2002 as the parent / grand parent connections were not used that much by football nations before the East Europe split and even later. But it's easy to see that the Kosovo situation is more complicated than others, considering that the vast majority of their players turned their back on Serbia, the usual situation (a mere splitting of the player resources) doesn't apply.

[Charlie Darwin]

Sepp utters plenty of truthful statements. One of my particular favourites is "the situation is such that all Northern Irish footballers could opt to play for both teams, given that they have a birthright to an Irish passport." :)

Blatter might not be a reputable character but I'd say he has a pretty firm grasp on what the organising committee's views on the subject would be, being as they are his own views to begin with. FIFA might create an exception to the rules for Kosovo but, seeing as no precedent has yet been established, we can only speculate at this juncture.

What we can be sure if is that FIFA statutes only allow for one instance in which a player can represent two separate national associations in competitive A internationals:
. If a Player who has been fi elded by his Association in an international match in accordance with art. 5 par. 2 permanently loses the nationality
of that country without his consent or against his will due to a decision
by a government authority, he may request permission to play for another
Association whose nationality he already has or has acquired.

There is obviously a special instance here, and it is when a new association is formed on the former territory of another association. It seems to be consistent with the aforementioned rules that any new association that is formed would be entitled to cap previous representatives of the former association, provided they had permanent nationality and fulfilled any territorial requirement to be eligible for the breakaway association. There is no such clarity when a player tied to a third, unrelated association should decide they would like to change associations.

[geysir]

Sepp utters plenty of truthful statements. One of my particular favourites is "the situation is such that all Northern Irish footballers could opt to play for both teams, given that they have a birthright to an Irish passport." :)
You will note, I said
the only truthful sentence Sepp has said in the last 5 years
I did remember those wise words from Sepp around 2008.

But since then, sadly Sepp has not hit the same heights of clarity,profoundity and truthfulness.

[Charlie Darwin]

I thought he was bang on with the Ronaldo-slavery issue.

[geysir]

I'd give him the women in shorts one, if it came from anybody else but but a sweaty, plump, elderly, panting man who's smaller than Danny DeVito.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Anyway, anyone care to put even The Guarniad out of their misery...
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/poll/2013/oct/07/should-england-pick-foreign-born-players-adnan-januzaj?CMP=twt_gu

Never mind 'Fatter', you all missed the chance to correct various eejits on the previous link and now even "Ingerland's finest" has waded in...
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/08/jack-wilshere-januzaj-england?CMP=twt_gu

[DannyInvincible]

What we can be sure if is that FIFA statutes only allow for one instance in which a player can represent two separate national associations in competitive A internationals:

There is obviously a special instance here, and it is when a new association is formed on the former territory of another association. It seems to be consistent with the aforementioned rules that any new association that is formed would be entitled to cap previous representatives of the former association, provided they had permanent nationality and fulfilled any territorial requirement to be eligible for the breakaway association. There is no such clarity when a player tied to a third, unrelated association should decide they would like to change associations.

Does article 8.2 definitely cover the situation of a new state/nationality or states/nationalities being formed from the splitting up of a former state? Did Montenegrins (without heritage or territorial ties to Serbia) automatically lose any right to post-split Serbian citizenship (assuming the pre-split citizenship was not continuous) when Serbia & Montenegro was divided into two?

What situation exactly does "without his consent or against his will due to a decision by a government authority" cover and does the phrase create strict criteria? Did Montenegrins lose their former citizenship without their consent or against their will, for example?

[geysir]

Never mind 'Fatter', you all missed the chance to correct various eejits on the previous link and now even "Ingerland's finest" has waded in...
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/08/jack-wilshere-januzaj-england?CMP=twt_gu
I suppose the English FA, can if they want, opt out of the UK agreement in order to pick a few free willing resident players in their middle to late 20's, forgotten by the country of their birth.
ATM, they assume any player would willingly wait 5 years, just dying to don the 3 lions shirt, that no player in their right mind would give a fiddler's fart for a backwoods place like Albania and it's completely out of the equation that the kid would ever consider a move (inside the 5 years) to a club in another country, because of his pure love for England.
Didn't this (eliminating residency from the criteria) part of the UK agreement come about because the other 3 FA's were concerned about the FA scooping up their best players?
Does the dog wag the tail in this UK agreement thing, or does the tail (sfa wfa ifa) wag the dog (FA) in the form of a democratic vote?
The English FA could get fed up with puny, servile, annoying whiny accented mini brits like the IFA, telling them what's what.

[Charlie Darwin]

Does article 8.2 definitely cover the situation of a new state/nationality or states/nationalities being formed from the splitting up of a former state? Did Montenegrins (without heritage or territorial ties to Serbia) automatically lose any right to post-split Serbian citizenship (assuming the pre-split citizenship was not continuous) when Serbia & Montenegro was divided into two?

What situation exactly does "without his consent or against his will due to a decision by a government authority" cover and does the phrase create strict criteria? Did Montenegrins lose their former citizenship without their consent or against their will, for example?
I don't know the situation with the break-up of Serbia and Montenegro, whether people from the latter were offered citizenship of Serbia. I can't see that article being complete enough to cover all instances though.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't know the situation with the break-up of Serbia and Montenegro, whether people from the latter were offered citizenship of Serbia. I can't see that article being complete enough to cover all instances though.

Can we be certain its purpose is to cover such a situation at all? Wasn't the split democratic, consensual and willing (by and large)?

[Crosby87]

Yeah would people of the later want citizenship to Serbia?

[Charlie Darwin]

Can we be certain its purpose is to cover such a situation at all? Wasn't the split democratic, consensual and willing (by and large)?
I don't think its intention is to cover that at all, and I suspect the lack of a formal rule for such cases is down to FIFA not wanting to encourage breakaway associations.


Yeah would people of the later want citizenship to Serbia?
There's a Serb minority in Montenegro like everywhere else in the former Yugoslavia. There are a few Kosovan Serbs in the current Serbia set-up.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't think its intention is to cover that at all, and I suspect the lack of a formal rule for such cases is down to FIFA not wanting to encourage breakaway associations.

But you do still maintain that it covers such a break-up situation though (even if unintentionally)? Unless I've misunderstood, isn't that what you were arguing in post #5758 (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1714816&viewfull=1#post1714816)? I'm not so sure if it does at all.

[Charlie Darwin]

But you do still maintain that it covers such a break-up situation though (even if unintentionally)? Unless I've misunderstood, isn't that what you were arguing in post #5758 (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1714816&viewfull=1#post1714816)? I'm not so sure if it does at all.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was saying that's the only situation FIFA statutes cover formally and breakaway associations is a separate case that's not covered in the statutes but nevertheless occurs.

[Stuttgart88]

I suspect the lack of a formal rule for such cases is down to FIFA not wanting to encourage breakaway associations. That's my view too.

[Stuttgart88]

Never mind 'Fatter', you all missed the chance to correct various eejits on the previous link and now even "Ingerland's finest" has waded in...
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/08/jack-wilshere-januzaj-england?CMP=twt_guI think young Jack has his eye on this job vacancy

http://news.sky.com/story/1151663/tommy-robinson-stands-down-from-the-edl

[geysir]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was saying that's the only situation FIFA statutes cover formally and breakaway associations is a separate case that's not covered in the statutes but nevertheless occurs.
I think FIFA are actually more supportive and proactive in this area, ready to do a deal (if the price is right).

The rule was always there, that a parent association had to approve of a split/separation, like with Catalonia or Basque country, if they wanted to go solo. Naturally there's no question of the parent association's permission mattering, if a separated region has won independence and gained recognition.
The problem Kosovo has, is more to do with the UN status being used as the criteria for acceptance. As it currently stands, the UN does not deserve that status because of the power and the exercise of the veto.
It should be, that if a region has a majority of UN members in favour of recognition, then after 3 or 5 years period, it automatically becomes a member, regardless of Russia or China or US opposition. Kosovo independence is supported by the vast majority of European countries, not Russia or Serbia.

It's UEFA who are the thorn in Kosova's cause to be recognised. It was UEFA who pulled back FIFA after FIFA gave Kosovo permission to play intl friendlies. It's Platini in particular who has a bee in his bonnet about Kosovo.

[Charlie Darwin]

That's a mere supposition, geysir, based on no existing evidence. On the other hand, we have the FIFA statutes which clearly forbid a player from representing two separate associations at competitive A level and we have the word of the reputable anti-slavery campaigner Herr Blatter.

[geysir]

The thread has evolved to a better place Charlie, keep pace with your own theory. :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha,
http://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/q71/s720x720/1379797_655157937837858_694182262_n.jpg
http://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/q71/s720x720/1379797_655157937837858_694182262_n.jpg

[liamoo11]

Watched Mclaughlin playing on the left of a front three for liverpool 21s on Monday. Serious footballer, scored, won peno, brought a couple of good saves from keeper and some nice crossing. Hopefully he comes into the fold. He looks ready for first team football. Tottenhams irish winger was there best player very light though very hard to see him playing premiership football.

[Bungle]

McLaughlin is supposed to be terrific and a lot of Pool fans reckon he will get game time this year, though it might depend on whether Liverpool remain challenging for the Champions League places.

I've been very impressed with McEvoy. Hope you're wrong about him not making it though!!

[DannyInvincible]

Tottenhams irish winger was there best player very light though very hard to see him playing premiership football.

Due to his physique? He could always bulk up, like his doppelgänger did.

[gastric]

The London Indo has compiled a list of English sporting individuals who would not have been able to represent England under Wilshere's theory of eligibility. It would be interesting if we listed our own list as I think it would pretty long too!

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/100-sports-stars-who-would-have-failed-jack-wilsheres-england-test-8877328.html?action=gallery&ino=50

[BonnieShels]

In fairness to Jack it';s a shame that English Cricket and Rugby have such grubby paws.

[Fixer82]

That list is very dubious. Many of those players have English blood but were just not born in England.

Where, let's be honest, the young lad at United has no English connection whatsoever.
I kind of agree with him on the residency thing. I'm not sure someone should qualify for a country because they have lived there for 5 years

[DannyInvincible]

Just on Januzaj, if it is indeed the case that he's holding out for recognition of Kosovo, perhaps that is indicative of an understanding on his part that opting for one of the nations for which he's currently eligible would rule him out of being able to play for Kosovo in the future? (Besides Serbia, of course, but playing for them is very unlikely to appeal to an ethnic Albanian anyway.)

[Stuttgart88]

I think the Monty Hall Problem is easier to understand than that! (see other thread)

[DannyInvincible]

An interesting piece about Brussels club FC Kosova Schaerbeek, for whom Januzaj's father and uncle once played: http://www.rferl.org/content/fc_kosova_schaerbeek_a_small_brussels_football_tea m_with_big_dreams/24355272.html


...

It might be just an amateur soccer club, playing six divisions below the national Belgian Premier League, but don't tell that to the fans of FC Kosova.

For them, it's a lot more than just a sports team. It's part of their identity, a second family. Fans point out that the club existed long before Kosovo itself gained broad international recognition as a country and opened an embassy in Brussels.

There are almost 200 fans watching the match -- a remarkable number if one considers that there are plenty of better soccer clubs in the city.

But there is more to FC Kosova than just the standard of football.

"Firstly, we are part of the Muslim community of Brussels," says Avni Bakalli, one of the club's fans. "And it represents everything that Albanians want from a football club: discipline, the will to win, brotherhood, and, in particular, mutual trust."

"We have suffered a lot in history but now we have a club among us where we meet with friends, grab a drink, talk about everything and nothing, but primarily about football," says another fan, whose son, nephew and cousin play for the club.

The president of FC Kosova, Abazi Xhevat, was a player when the club was created 20 years ago. He believes that there would be even more people watching if they had a proper stadium.

"The supporters are always here," he says. "We have always had supporters and they are always there. You saw it today and it is magnificent."

The team is currently confined to playing their home games at a fenced-in AstroTurf pitch in the gritty, multiethnic Brussels municipality of Schaerbeek, where a majority of the city's 40,000 ethnic Albanians live.

Previously, the team shared a rundown arena with two other neighboring clubs but they all had to move out due to construction work.

A Family Club

When Xhevat was still a player, the club consisted of a senior team full of immigrants from Kosovo at the very bottom of the football league system in Belgium. Today, it has already climbed up a division and is topping another table. What's more, FC Kosova now has 140 players and a team at each underage-level from ages 6 to 21.

The club's secretary, Afrim Kas, tells RFE/RL that the club is now becoming much more multiethnic with players from Turkey, Morocco, and several African countries, both in the senior squad and at youth level.

"In the beginning when the club was created it was a nice little family club that represented the Albanian community," he says. "But it has developed a little bit into a club for the whole of Brussels and in the surrounding region of Brabant."

Most of the senior team's starting 11, however, still hail from Kosovo, but on the bench orders are barked in French.

The coach of the team is Christophe Schoenjans, an ethnic Belgian who was the club's senior goalkeeper for five years before an injury forced him to hang up his gloves.

Even though the team still has a strong ethnic identity, Schoenjans sees no difficulty as an outsider coming in to give instructions.

"They are not Kosovars, they are players," he says. "For me they are players and it doesn't really matter if they are Kosovars, Spaniards, Belgians, or Swedes. It is the same thing."

A Vehicle For Integration

Yet, the pride of putting on the red and black shirt with the Albanian double-headed eagle emblazoned on their chests is obvious for most of the players.

Club captain Ledio Kertusha maintains that he is playing for his country and his people, but he points out that FC Kosova Schaerbeek is also an important vehicle for integration in Belgium.

"It is good for us because it will integrate us even more and do so in a better way," he says. "And it will show everyone that we have a place in this society"

The team still plays a distinctly Balkan style of soccer characterized by a fondness for silky skills such as backheels, step-overs, flicks, and nutmegs mixed with fiery temperaments, angry gestures toward the referee, and the occasional theatrical simulation near the opponent's penalty area.

Kas believes that the club's credo is to play entertaining football and for the players, both old and young, to have fun. "It's a spectacle," he says. "The kids who come here want to entertain themselves. That is the most important thing for the club: the entertainment. When they join the club, it's because they want to have fun."

...

[DannyInvincible]

I was just reading through the Wikipedia article of Southampton's Dani Osvaldo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dani_Osvaldo) (born in Argentina, of course, but he plays internationally for Italy) and came across this snippet:


Osvaldo qualified for Italian citizenship through a great-grandfather who was born in Filottrano, Marche and emigrated to Argentina in the 19th century. On 5 October 2011, due to the injuries that caused the withdrawal of regular strikers Mario Balotelli and Giampaolo Pazzini, Osvaldo received his first call-up to play for the Italian national team for UEFA Euro 2012 qualifying matches against Serbia and Northern Ireland.

I recall we discussed the eligibility of some Argentina-born Italian internationals with Italy-born great-grandfathers before in this thread, but had we come to any conclusion as to under which eligibility regulation they qualified to play for Italy?

The Wiki article on oriundi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriundo) has the following to say on the matter, but it's not all that insightful, nor do I see how it could be correct in Dani Osvaldo's case (if he indeed qualifies through an Italy-born great-grandfather only):


Some oriundi have played for the Italian or Spanish national football teams in international competition; among these are some who had previously represented their native country. FIFA requires international footballers to have either citizenship of a country or close ancestral ties to it. Oriundi may qualify under the latter heading; in addition, they can acquire citizenship more easily than immigrants not of native extraction, owing to jus sanguinis.

[Charlie Darwin]

As far as I can see, it can only be due to his having the entitlement to permanent nationality not dependent on residence from the time of his birth, for which his parent or grandparent would have to have been citizens at the time of his birth, at the very least. Either that, or the fact he hadn't represented Argentina at U19 level meant strictly speaking he wasn't "acquiring a new nationality" at all.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's more of a cultural thing in that quite a few Spanish/Italian-born players have played for Argentina presumably largely on residency grounds, and in the main, no-one seemed that bothered.

[Charlie Darwin]

That's more of a cultural thing in that quite a few Spanish/Italian-born players have played for Argentina presumably largely on residency grounds, and in the main, no-one seemed that bothered.
Seems as much the other way in recent years with the likes of Cambiasso and Camoranesi calling on Italian ancestry to play for their national team. I think Danny's more interested in the legal mechanism that makes Osvaldo eligible though, in light of the fact his ancestry goes further than the grandparentage FIFA's statutes stipulate for a change of nationality.

[geysir]

He could have qualified because of residency. He arrived to Italy in 2006 when he turned 20
He only had to live in Italy for 2 years in order to be eligible. He played for the u21's but maybe those were not competitive games.
The 5 year residency requirement came in 2008.

He wasn't selected for the seniors until 2011, he would have fulfilled the 5 year residency requirement by then.

[Stuttgart88]

So, the Brazilian bloke that has just declared for Spain: his Spanish dual nationality was only confirmed in July this year.

Before that he had represented Brazil in a non-binding fixture.

Does that not rule him out for Spain on the old Article 18.1(a) grounds, i.e,., that at the time he represented country A (even in a friendly) he must also have had country B nationality (or its requirements)?

[geysir]

So, the Brazilian bloke that has just declared for Spain: his Spanish dual nationality was only confirmed in July this year.

Before that he had represented Brazil in a non-binding fixture.

Does that not rule him out for Spain on the old Article 18.1(a) grounds, i.e,., that at the time he represented country A (even in a friendly) he must also have had country B nationality (or its requirements)?
If he's just declared for Spain then he has to have satisfied the current wording of article 8, which is different to what you write,
senior friendlies don't count.
But if he had played competitive underage for Brazil, then he would have to have had the Spanish citizenship before that game.

[DannyInvincible]

He could have qualified because of residency. He arrived to Italy in 2006 when he turned 20
He only had to live in Italy for 2 years in order to be eligible. He played for the u21's but maybe those were not competitive games.
The 5 year residency requirement came in 2008.

He wasn't selected for the seniors until 2011, he would have fulfilled the 5 year residency requirement by then.

The five-year residency requirement demands that the residency has been continuous. I'm not so sure Osvaldo would have satisfied that had the current rules been in place pre-2008. That's assuming that his Wiki stat-board is correct when it says he joined Atalanta from Huracán in 2006 and left Bologna for Espanyol in 2010.

Nevertheless, he would have been eligible to play for Italy after two years of residency under the pre-2008 rules, as you point out. Do you think he would otherwise have been ineligible, despite his Italian great-grandfather?


So, the Brazilian bloke that has just declared for Spain: his Spanish dual nationality was only confirmed in July this year.

Before that he had represented Brazil in a non-binding fixture.

Does that not rule him out for Spain on the old Article 18.1(a) grounds, i.e,., that at the time he represented country A (even in a friendly) he must also have had country B nationality (or its requirements)?

As far as I can make out, friendlies are overlooked. The rules don't apply to friendly fixtures and only competitive fixtures are binding in terms of effecting switches and tying players to associations. The reason Arteta wasn't eligible to play for England was because he had played in competitive fixtures for Spain at under-age level before becoming entitled to British citizenship. If I recall correctly, two or three Everton players with Irish-sounding surnames actually played for us in a friendly at under-age level a few years ago despite not being eligible to play for us at all!

[geysir]

The five-year residency requirement demands that the residency has been continuous. I'm not so sure Osvaldo would have satisfied that had the current rules been in place pre-2008. That's assuming that his Wiki stat-board is correct when it says he joined Atalanta from Huracán in 2006 and left Bologna for Espanyol in 2010.

Nevertheless, he would have been eligible to play for Italy after two years of residency under the pre-2008 rules, as you point out. Do you think he would otherwise have been ineligible, despite his Italian great-grandfather?
I think he would have been ineligible with just the Italian great-grandfather. There is no eligibility through a great grandfather
His 2 year residency was completed on jan 2008, from that point on he would have been eligible to play underage competitive games for Italy and anything else he was selected for.
What Charlie says is valid, but only if he was automatically an Italian citizen when he was born, if he had to apply for Italian nationality - then he would have needed the 2 year residency to satisfy FIFA.
Afaiu this Oriundo thing, the descendent has to apply for citizenship, until they apply they are not Italian nationals.
Camoranesi had 2 or 3 years residency before he played for Italy.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Seems as much the other way in recent years with the likes of Cambiasso and Camoranesi calling on Italian ancestry to play for their national team. I think Danny's more interested in the legal mechanism that makes Osvaldo eligible though, in light of the fact his ancestry goes further than the grandparentage FIFA's statutes stipulate for a change of nationality.

Aye, good point tbf. knew this went 'both ways', but struggling to think of relevant examples.

[DannyInvincible]

Aye, good point tbf. knew this went 'both ways', but struggling to think of relevant examples.

There's a list of players here born outside of Italy but with Italian ancestry who've represented the Italian national team: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriundo#List_of_Italian_football_oriundi

Amauri, Cristian Ladesma, Thiago Motta, Simone Perrotta and Giuseppe Rossi are a few of the more recent examples, as well as Camoranesi.

[liamoo11]

Was watching liverpool v boro under 18s highlights. O Hanlon looked class as always. Lad called o neill hit bar for boro. Turns out there are 2 of them conor and stephen both 96s so eligible for 19s this year and next. Born in Bris Vagas must be ELIGIBLE for us.

[DannyInvincible]

"This impending appointment of Martin O'Neill as senior team manager of the Beggars is nothing but another devious and divisive ploy by the FAI to win over the hearts of young and impressionable northern Catholic lads and to strike a further blow to the very existence of the IFA. Is O'Neill even eligible?!"

- Someone on OWC earlier, probably...

[geysir]

"This impending appointment of Martin O'Neill as senior team manager of the Beggars is nothing but another devious and divisive ploy by the FAI to win over the hearts of young and impressionable northern Catholic lads and to strike a further blow to the very existence of the IFA. Is O'Neill even eligible?!"
- Someone on OWC earlier, probably...

A question mark followed by an exclamation mark?
That could be Paul.

[DannyInvincible]

A question mark followed by an exclamation mark?

I believe they call it an interrobang.