Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Diggs246]

Many NI fans incl myself actively want a new anthem, while many more wouldn't object to one. Can't tell whether between us we constitute a majority or not, but even if we should, the IFA isn't likely to opt for change any time soon, at least while the England team retains it. This is because they know just what a sh1tshow people outside the football community would kick up, flag/bonfire style.

Er, how many do we actually lose when they reach adulthood these days? McClean and Duffy were well over a decade ago, while Gibson was as much a case of falling out with an individual(s) at the IFA as anything else. Meanwhile contemporaries of theirs such as Baird and Ferguson were actively approached by the FAI but declined. (Paddy McNair was another on your radar, much to the amusement of all who know him!)

And since then, the likes of Sykes is very much the exception for an adult deciding to switch these days.

Sorry, but I can only assume you know very little about rugby and the circumstances behind all that.

However I shall refrain from elaborating further, for fear of being accused of being the one who is dragging this thread away from ROI-eligible players and onto Rugby, Anthems, politics and the like.

Just Google the history of "Ireland's call "and stop being a fanny.

[EalingGreen]

Just Google the history of "Ireland's call "and stop being a fanny.I don't need to.

Nor have I the time (or inclination) just now to explain my remarks.

But in the meantime, you may google "Fig Leaf", "window dressing" or "gesture".

Have a good evening.

[Eirambler]

In recent years the whole direction of travel at FIFA has been towards loosening the restrictions which prevent players from switching, not tightening them.

In which case, it doesn't make any difference whether a youngster opts first for ROI, knowing that he can still switch to NI at a later date, or vice versa.

Of course it makes a difference, that you're suggesting otherwise confirms what most of us here know anyway - that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Player A from nationalist background in the north is 16 and hasn't played any competitive international football. The FAI can approach him and say "we think you have potential with us, come and play for Ireland and if it doesn't work out you still have the fallback position that you can go and play for the north if you end up falling short with us.

Player B from a nationalist background in the north is 17 and has featured in yet another unsuccessful Euro Under 17s qualification campaign for the north, a competition they haven't qualified for in over two decades. If the FAI approach him he can still switch, but in doing so will tie himself to a stronger nation that he might not be good enough for in the longer term, costing himself an international career in the process. So already, at 17, the pragmatic call is to stay put.

It's a huge difference, and that's why most of those lads will be where they are. Sorry, but you're deluding yourself if you think it's out of any loyalty to the team, the flag or the "country". The reality is that in most cases it's the correct call, as the vast majority won't be good enough to play for us. But the odd one here and there will be, and it's a shame that we're not doing more to give them an option at an earlier age, before the call either way requires a difficult decision that could restrict a player's career prospects down the line.

[Diggs246]

I don't need to.

Nor have I the time (or inclination) just now to explain my remarks.

But in the meantime, you may google "Fig Leaf", "window dressing" or "gesture".

Have a good evening.

There's two doors.. one with a big "P" for the past on it and another with a big "F" for the future on it

Try the second door, just have a peek.

[Olé Olé]

Sorry lads, what am I missing here? It is becoming fairly clear to me that most young lads from CNR backgrounds in the 6 counties are more than happy to play underage and senior international football for Northern Ireland.

I don't think Sean Moore had much involvement with NI but it seems to me that all the young lads in their system are happy to stay, regardless of how many Ireland shirts they have or amount of GAA they have played. And that goes for the lads that are of the best quality like Chris Atherton and Conor Bradley. Not just the lads you think are doing well to get into an NI set up and "settle" for them like Eoin Toal or Conor McMenamin.

19 year old Ruairi Mcconville sounded fairly delighted with his recent debut, praising the fans and looking forward to a long career in the shirt.

And it's not just Belfast that we are not reaching. There are loads of lads from Tyrone and Armagh in the set up. Bradley, Forbes, McMullan, Devlin. Patrick Kelly and Aaron Donnelly are from Derry. What about Daithi bloody McCallion?

And now they are seeing Ronan Hale switching back. Although he should be an example to the rest of them!

Anyway, I think it's become clear from what I am reading and seeing that these lads are getting plenty fulfillment from playing for NI. Are they just thinking "is it really worth the hassle..."

I'm wondering whether the demographic of the supporters is changing or has changed in the years since we reaped most from the 6 counties with Wilson, Gibson, McClean, Duffy etc?

[Eirambler]

There's definitely a pragmatic element to it. The nationalist community in the north is nothing if not pragmatic, they've had to be at times down the decades just to survive. The tensions up there obviously aren't at the same level they once were either. And the relative similarity of performance in the last 10 years at senior level will be contributing too, despite being a much harder team to get into in terms of depth of playing pool, we haven't really done any better than the north in the last 10 years. But longer term, that's unlikely to remain the case, the same way us being as good as England in the late 80s and early 90s was something that couldn't last forever either.

But the problems for the nationalist players remain, especially once they get to the senior team and are playing in front of bigger crowds at Windsor. The flag doesn't represent them, they have to bow their heads in a sort of self-shaming silence during the anthem and they have to accept that their own community aren't in the stands supporting them (other than their own families and close friends perhaps), because ultimately nationalists by and large don't go out and support the team. In the stands it very much remains a unionist team for a unionist support base (but hey, if they can get a few taigs in to improve results and they don't rock the boat then what's the harm).

So yes, there are still huge issues, and as long as the IFA don't change the flag and anthem that will remain the case. But, as I have posted previously, the key to us taking advantage of the IFA's bigotry is to identify the stronger nationalist players that we would actually want (i.e. the Bradley types) at a younger age, and get them on board early before it necessitates a switch that, as you say, can be seen as more hassle tham it's worth.

[third policeman]

The key is following the example of rugby, cricket, hockey, boxing, golf, common sense and history and having one team. I respect EG’s position, but even the majority of people in NI seem to think it’s a good idea. Football is (excluding the Commonwealth Games) the only sporting context in which the ‘country’ of NI actually has a sporting team. It’s an anomaly, a relic, a quirk of history. Even EG has previously conceded that most people in NI would support a combined team, but he thinks that the NI football supporting community should somehow be able to veto it. Now where have we heard that argument before?

[The Fly]

Really?
Yep. The operative word is talented, and Bradley is very much the exception to the rule in recent times.

The default, or at least majority communal position for said players isn't a support for/desire to play for NI remember.


Not so much "one swallow" as a whole colony...
You've listed various NI youth sides but only time will tell if any of those players turn out to have significant potential and then go on to represent the NI senior side.

[EalingGreen]

Sorry lads, what am I missing here? It is becoming fairly clear to me that most young lads from CNR backgrounds in the 6 counties are more than happy to play underage and senior international football for Northern Ireland.

I don't think Sean Moore had much involvement with NI but it seems to me that all the young lads in their system are happy to stay, regardless of how many Ireland shirts they have or amount of GAA they have played. And that goes for the lads that are of the best quality like Chris Atherton and Conor Bradley. Not just the lads you think are doing well to get into an NI set up and "settle" for them like Eoin Toal or Conor McMenamin.

19 year old Ruairi Mcconville sounded fairly delighted with his recent debut, praising the fans and looking forward to a long career in the shirt.

And it's not just Belfast that we are not reaching. There are loads of lads from Tyrone and Armagh in the set up. Bradley, Forbes, McMullan, Devlin. Patrick Kelly and Aaron Donnelly are from Derry. What about Daithi bloody McCallion?

And now they are seeing Ronan Hale switching back. Although he should be an example to the rest of them!

Anyway, I think it's become clear from what I am reading and seeing that these lads are getting plenty fulfillment from playing for NI. Are they just thinking "is it really worth the hassle..."

I'm wondering whether the demographic of the supporters is changing or has changed in the years since we reaped most from the 6 counties with Wilson, Gibson, McClean, Duffy etc?Thank you, Ole - at least one poster on this thread who tries to view the situation as it is, rather than what they hope it is like, or (worse still) what they demand it should be, based on their own, tired and outdated prejudices etc.

Anyhow, you at least might be interested in this post from an NI fans' website the other day:

Well, for me, my first memory of international football is, I think Mexico 86, when I was 10 and I have been a Northern Ireland fan since.
I’m not a block booker or anything, but have been to matches home and away and am a member of the London NISC.
Looking on Facebook, or meeting people from [my old Catholic] school, I’d say East / South Belfast Catholics are probably a 50:50 split supporting NI or ROI. I went to school with the COO of the IFA.
I lived in Dublin for 8 years and the odd time someone will say 'what do you support them for?' And I always say 'that’s a tough one, but I guess it’s because I was born there and grew up there'.
I’m passionately cross-community and there’s only one choice then."

Incidentally, that COO referred to is Graham Fitzgerald, who himself succeeded Sean Murphy (left to join Bank of Ireland). When you consider that the CEO is an English-born Catholic, of Irish stock from both sides of the border; the manager is Catholic; half the coaches and players in the various teams are Catholic, as are many of the IFA staff behind the scenes, then it says far more about the poster who earlier referred to the "bigoted IFA" than it does about the target of his bile:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-football-association/about-the-ifa/irish-fa-staff
(The above web page isn't quite up-to-date, while you can't always go by names. Nonetheless the picture of diversity at all levels which it represents is undeniable, to all but the most irredeemably prejudiced)

[The Fly]

Thank you, Ole - at least one poster on this thread who tries to view the situation as it is, rather than what they hope it is like, or (worse still) what they demand it should be, based on their own, tired and outdated prejudices etc.
I really do appreciate your posts EG, but you’re guilty of that yourself.



Anyhow, you at least might be interested in this post from an NI fans' website the other day:

Well, for me, my first memory of international football is, I think Mexico 86, when I was 10 and I have been a Northern Ireland fan since.
I’m not a block booker or anything, but have been to matches home and away and am a member of the London NISC.
Looking on Facebook, or meeting people from [my old Catholic] school, I’d say East / South Belfast Catholics are probably a 50:50 split supporting NI or ROI. I went to school with the COO of the IFA.
I lived in Dublin for 8 years and the odd time someone will say 'what do you support them for?' And I always say 'that’s a tough one, but I guess it’s because I was born there and grew up there'.
I’m passionately cross-community and there’s only one choice then."
This is very much a minority view amongst the CNR community up here.

I also can’t help but notice that he dresses up his choice as the only one available for someone who’s passionately cross-community. Get real mate!



Incidentally, that COO referred to is Graham Fitzgerald, who himself succeeded Sean Murphy (left to join Bank of Ireland). When you consider that the CEO is an English-born Catholic, of Irish stock from both sides of the border; the manager is Catholic; half the coaches and players in the various teams are Catholic, as are many of the IFA staff behind the scenes, then it says far more about the poster who earlier referred to the "bigoted IFA" than it does about the target of his bile:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-football-association/about-the-ifa/irish-fa-staff
(The above web page isn't quite up-to-date, while you can't always go by names. Nonetheless the picture of diversity at all levels which it represents is undeniable, to all but the most irredeemably prejudiced)
All of which are welcome developments. More power to them.

[Eirambler]

it says far more about the poster who earlier referred to the "bigoted IFA" than it does about the target of his bile:



Not as long as the current flag and the current anthem are the flag and the anthem it doesn't. They could change them. They choose not to. You need to get real, it's a team that caters to a protestant/unionist support base and that won't be changing any time soon.

[EalingGreen]

I really do appreciate your posts EG, but you’re guilty of that yourself.We're all guilty of "confirmation bias" to some extent, but in my own defence, (a ) unlike the 'experts' on here, I've actually been to NI games, know some of the individuals involved and follow events closely, and (b ) you may have noticed that I always try to support my points with actual evidence - stats, links and quotes etc - unlike the aforementioned 'experts', who invariably rely on hoary, outdated slogans, cliched reference to (their version of) events from the last century, and outrageous claims which simply do not stand up, so that when challenged, they resort to personal insults* like "fanny" and "bigot", to cite but two recent examples from this thread.

* - Note how they get way with this sort of behaviour, while I got pulled up for eg making a "simpleton" remark, which was clearly meant to be humourous.


This is very much a minority view amongst the CNR community up here.
A minority, no doubt, but in my experience a growing one, also one which is stronger in some parts than others (hence the poster's reference to South/East Belfast). I think (hope?) it may be more than many people think, not least because his Dublin comment reveals that there is no incentive to be open* about it in certain company, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

* - I know a few NI fans from the CNR community, but thinking about it, I don't ever recall any of them wearing NI colours, at least to home games.


I also can’t help but notice that he dresses up his choice as the only one available for someone who’s passionately cross-community. Get real mate!I took it to mean one choice for him, not that others may not make a different choice.


All of which are welcome developments. More power to them.Thank you. Not that you'd believe any of that if you listened to "The Usual Suspects" on here, when they pontificate long and loud about how nothing has ever changed when, in truth, it is they who are still living in the last century.

Not that they'll ever respond to any such evidence, since it tears the arse out of their own prejudiced allegations.

[EalingGreen]

Not as long as the current flag and the current anthem are the flag and the anthem it doesn't. They could change them. They choose not to. You need to get real, it's a team that caters to a protestant/unionist support base and that won't be changing any time soon.Re the flag, as you may know, the NI flag no longer has any official status. But seeing as the only alternative is actually the Union Flag, would you prefer that they flew that? While if Stormont ever got round to agreeing a new flag, I'm sure the IFA would adopt that. I'm not holding my breath, mind.

Anyhow, the flag we use has long been identified as representing NI, throughout the (real) world, even if it doesn't register in your wee world.

As for the anthem, I've already explained why it's not likely to change any time soon, but if you choose to ignore the reason for their reluctance, and dress it up as simple "bigotry", then I don't suppose I'll ever persuade you to change a mind which is clearly already made up.

And in the meantime, you may consider this. If I could still get tickets for rugby internationals at Lansdowne Road, I would be surrounded by tricolours, while being required to stand up - twice* - for the Soldiers Song, despite this not being my anthem. But you know what? My simple response was to stand up, shut up, wait til it finished and sit down again to enjoy the real reason for my attendance (that's the game, btw).

Which is not unlike this observation by an NI fan who was at Seaview for the Euro Qualifier game between NI U-17's and ROI U-17's last month:
"On another note, there were A LOT of RoI fans/friends/family up for the game with RoI merch on. Played both Anthems before the game, 99.9% of the crowd got up for both anthems, stood quietly and respected BOTH anthems.... ... great to see this level of mutual respect."

Which further reinforces what I have long observed, which is that for all people like you like to "shout the odds" over matters like these, the majority of people on both sides, know how to concentrate on the importants things, while putting up with the unimportant.

Then again, I don't ever discern any "respect" in you, at least when it comes to matters like these.

Indeed I have no doubt that even if NI were to replace anthem and flag tomorrow, you'd still be repeating the same old prejudiced garbage that constitutes your entire contributions to this thread to date.


* - I'm told the second rendition is a Presidential Salute, though how the wee man always seems to get a ticket beats me!

[Snapshot]

Is wearing a balaclava a prerequisite for posting here?

[seanfhear]

Is wearing a balaclava a prerequisite for posting here?Yes ~ I always do anyway !

[Snapshot]

Yes ~ I always do anyway !
Proper order. How are the aul kneecaps these days?

[elatedscum]

Re the flag, as you may know, the NI flag no longer has any official status. But seeing as the only alternative is actually the Union Flag, would you prefer that they flew that? While if Stormont ever got round to agreeing a new flag, I'm sure the IFA would adopt that. I'm not holding my breath, mind

I’m sure you could come up with a flag that represents both communities. Just spitballing here but green to represent the CNR crowd, orange to represent the loyalists, William of Orange etc. and maybe something else in between to represent peace and tolerance between both sides.

[seanfhear]

I’m sure you could come up with a flag that represents both communities. Just spitballing here but green to represent the CNR crowd, orange to represent the loyalists, William of Orange etc. and maybe something else in between to represent peace and tolerance between both sides.A peace gun maybe !

[Eirambler]

Re the flag, as you may know, the NI flag no longer has any official status. But seeing as the only alternative is actually the Union Flag, would you prefer that they flew that? While if Stormont ever got round to agreeing a new flag, I'm sure the IFA would adopt that. I'm not holding my breath, mind.

Anyhow, the flag we use has long been identified as representing NI, throughout the (real) world, even if it doesn't register in your wee world.

As for the anthem, I've already explained why it's not likely to change any time soon, but if you choose to ignore the reason for their reluctance, and dress it up as simple "bigotry", then I don't suppose I'll ever persuade you to change a mind which is clearly already made up.

And in the meantime, you may consider this. If I could still get tickets for rugby internationals at Lansdowne Road, I would be surrounded by tricolours, while being required to stand up - twice* - for the Soldiers Song, despite this not being my anthem. But you know what? My simple response was to stand up, shut up, wait til it finished and sit down again to enjoy the real reason for my attendance (that's the game, btw).

Which is not unlike this observation by an NI fan who was at Seaview for the Euro Qualifier game between NI U-17's and ROI U-17's last month:
"On another note, there were A LOT of RoI fans/friends/family up for the game with RoI merch on. Played both Anthems before the game, 99.9% of the crowd got up for both anthems, stood quietly and respected BOTH anthems.... ... great to see this level of mutual respect."

Which further reinforces what I have long observed, which is that for all people like you like to "shout the odds" over matters like these, the majority of people on both sides, know how to concentrate on the importants things, while putting up with the unimportant.

Then again, I don't ever discern any "respect" in you, at least when it comes to matters like these.

Indeed I have no doubt that even if NI were to replace anthem and flag tomorrow, you'd still be repeating the same old prejudiced garbage that constitutes your entire contributions to this thread to date.


* - I'm told the second rendition is a Presidential Salute, though how the wee man always seems to get a ticket beats me!

Sorry but those are ridiculous arguments looking to defend the utterly indefensible. You correctly say the flag used by the IFA has no status. So why not use another flag with no status that is inclusive of both sides of the population of the area the team purports to represent? And the flag used may have been used for a long time, but all that shows is just how ingrained the bigotry is, so ingrained that you evidently cannot see it it would seem.

And your defence of the anthem is what, that it might upset a few non-football fans if it was changed? So that justifies alienating half the community does it? It's bigotry plain and simple, and if there was any truth in your second point then it's cowardly bigotry as well.

FWIW, and I'm guessing you know this anyway, the rugby team has adopted a different flag and a different anthem to keep a small minority community across the island satisfied. Yet the area of the island the IFA covers contains a larger proportion of Catholics/Nationalists yet they make no similar effort to include them in respect of these matters. And as long as that remains the case you simply cannot credibly claim that your team represents Catholics/Nationalists in the north.

[EalingGreen]

Sorry but those are ridiculous arguments looking to defend the utterly indefensible. You correctly say the flag used by the IFA has no status. So why not use another flag with no status that is inclusive of both sides of the population of the area the team purports to represent? And the flag used may have been used for a long time, but all that shows is just how ingrained the bigotry is, so ingrained that you evidently cannot see it it would seem.
What flag do you suggest?

And while we're at it, the FAI would contend that it is open to ALL Irish-born people, North or South, Unionist or Nationalist etc. In which case, why don't they adopt a flag or anthem to which all people can adhere? (And before you jump up and down, I am not making a serious suggestion, merely pointing out the inconsistency of your own position)

P.S. Back in the day the IFA actually flew the Union Flag, but subsequently dropped it for the NI flag.


And your defence of the anthem is what, that it might upset a few non-football fans if it was changed? So that justifies alienating half the community does it? It's bigotry plain and simple, and if there was any truth in your second point then it's cowardly bigotry as well."Upset a few non-football fans" is it?

Once again you demonstrate your total ignorance of how these things work in NI. Or maybe you do understand, but wilfully refuse to acknowledge it, since it doesn't suit your case?


FWIW, and I'm guessing you know this anyway, the rugby team has adopted a different flag and a different anthem to keep a small minority community across the island satisfied. Yet the area of the island the IFA covers contains a larger proportion of Catholics/Nationalists yet they make no similar effort to include them in respect of these matters. And as long as that remains the case you simply cannot credibly claim that your team represents Catholics/Nationalists in the north.So you expect Northern/Unionist rugby fans to accept/respect the Tricolour and Soldiers Song at the Aviva, but cannot require Northern/Nationalist football fans to accept/respect the Ulster Flag and GSTK at Windsor?

Speaking of which, when I used to attend rugby internationals, I had no affinity or allegiance to either Tricolour or SS whatever, but I was there for a match, not a political rally, so I was able to put up with it, if only out of respect for my fellow fans who do have such an allegiance. Going by the tone and content of your posts, I do not detect any such tolerance or accommodation in you. Nor are you able to set aside your own, narrow political prejudices for the sake of sport.

So let me ask you this simple question. Were the IFA to change both flag and anthem, would you still be happy at the existence of the NI team, passing no remarks on anyone in NI who chose to play for or support the team, in preference to ROI?

Indeed, were eg NI subsequently to qualify for a tournament finals while ROI didn't, would you then support the NI team, on the basis that they, too, are your fellow Irishmen/women?

[Joxerbrowne]

Fact is there has been one player from a RC background that would have improved our team in the last 15 years who declared for The North and that is Bradley, everyone else would of struggled to make a squad never mind get mins, so I will believe it when I see it that all these players from a RC background are good enough for us but playing for the North.

Thing is only way it's going to happen is if Michael O'Neill keeps capping young lads at 17 or 18 who haven't even made senior debuts in pro football. Next up is Coran Madden, he has scored a goal already for Cliftonville at 15 and expected to sign for Man City or Arsenal, I reckon O'Neill will have him in a NI squad in the next year or two.

[Eirambler]

What flag do you suggest?


One that fairly and agreeably represents all communities in the north.



So let me ask you this simple question. Were the IFA to change both flag and anthem, would you still be happy at the existence of the NI team, passing no remarks on anyone in NI who chose to play for or support the team, in preference to ROI?



If the team, flag, anthem etc were genuinely inclusive to all communities and the nationalist population in the north were fully behind it, then why should I have an alternative view? That's not even remotely close to the current situation though, as we all know.



Indeed, were eg NI subsequently to qualify for a tournament finals while ROI didn't, would you then support the NI team, on the basis that they, too, are your fellow Irishmen/women?

The team in question would represent the north, and I'm not from the north. I'm an Ireland supporter, not a supporter of any other representative team. So that's a straightforward no. But in this mythical alternative universe you have created where elements of the team, flag, anthem, association etc are fully inclusive of all communities, I would wish them well. Again the reality is far from that of course, no matter how much you might try to suggest otherwise.

[third policeman]

What flag do you suggest? Indeed, were eg NI subsequently to qualify for a tournament finals while ROI didn't, would you then support the NI team, on the basis that they, too, are your fellow Irishmen/women?

Of course and did in 82 and 86 as did the overwhelming majority of ROI fans and the wider population in the Republic. As a matter of interest what percentage of the NI fan base or the Unionist population in NI supported the ROI in competitions when NI didn't quality. A much smaller percentage, I'd wager. I wonder what that tells us.