Stadium Updates (All Clubs)

[disgruntled]

Latest from the Gerry Matthews (previous Dundalk owner) saga is, he is considering demolishing the Youth Dev Centre and salvaging it for scrap as its clear DFC have no interest in it. Still no progress on the lease and he has been alleging abusive phone calls being made to his house!

Without the lease Dundalk cannot proceed with any ground improvements.

Is there any chance Dundalk might leave Oriel ?
Start their own project on a greenfield site.
Invest the proceeds from their success into something for the future.
This plus any grants available would surely get the club well on its way.

As to receiving abusive phone calls ?
I'm sure he is but I would doubt it has anything to do with anyone connected to the football club.
It is no doubt some individuals venting their frustration on the matter dragging on & on.

[oriel]

I think if the current owners of DFC cannot get hold of the lease in the next few years, they might consider moving. Without the lease, only grants below 20k can be applied for I think. They have also made it clear they won't make any upgrades apart from very limited safety items, unless they get hold of the lease.

DKIT has been mentioned, but they will still need over 2 million possibly 3m to put towards it and let's be honest that is very unlikely they can raise that amount.

The first choice would appear to redevelop oriel park, but that's back to the lease issue. It might come to a head that GM will just get so frustrated he will hand it over, (unlikely but not impossible) it's clear the current owners do not see why they have to pay for it, and consider the terms of the buy out when they took over as covering the lease. He also can't sell it on to anyone else as terms of conditions means the ground can only be used for football. DFC are also in a very good relationship with the actual owner Des Casey. The club are in effect sub leasing a lease, which is owned by a 3rd party (GM). The stand off continues.

[disgruntled]

I think if the current owners of DFC cannot get hold of the lease in the next few years, they might consider moving. Without the lease, only grants below 20k can be applied for I think. They have also made it clear they won't make any upgrades apart from very limited safety items, unless they get hold of the lease.

DKIT has been mentioned, but they will still need over 2 million possibly 3m to put towards it and let's be honest that is very unlikely they can raise that amount.

The first choice would appear to redevelop oriel park, but that's back to the lease issue. It might come to a head that GM will just get so frustrated he will hand it over, (unlikely but not impossible) it's clear the current owners do not see why they have to pay for it, and consider the terms of the buy out when they took over as covering the lease. He also can't sell it on to anyone else as terms of conditions means the ground can only be used for football. DFC are also in a very good relationship with the actual owner Des Casey. The club are in effect sub leasing a lease, which is owned by a 3rd party (GM). The stand off continues.


Does anyone know how long the lease is that GM has on Oriel ?

When the current owners took over the club what did they take over ?
If they believe they took over the lease on Oriel as well as the club Dundalk FC then why are they sub leasing anything ?
It all sounds very complicated.

Is that the same Des Casey who was involved with Drogheda & was a UEFA delegate or on some UEFA committee ?

[Nesta99]

72 years left or something like that. Des Casey, yes VP of UEFA and pushed Jack Charlton to the Ireland job, I doubt he was ever involved with Drogheda though, you may be thinking of Jim Malone.

The rest is complicated and it is disputed on what was agreed during the takeover by GM in particular.

[Ezeikial]

It might come to a head that GM will just get so frustrated he will hand it over, (unlikely but not impossible) it's clear the current owners do not see why they have to pay for it, and consider the terms of the buy out when they took over as covering the lease.

The latter part of that sentence may give an incorrect impression. Hence.....



If they believe they took over the lease on Oriel as well as the club Dundalk FC then why are they sub leasing anything ?


The current owners have recognised that they have not acquired the lease on Oriel Park (which is why the club cannot access major Capital Sports Grants). The contention is that the terms of the takeover agreement provides a sufficient legal basis to satisfy FAI licencing requirements (that relate to a guarantee of the use of Oriel Park for the relevant season)

This has been accepted by the Independent Club Licencing Committee (I can't type the Independent bit without laughing) for each licencing season since the takeover (2013/2014/2015/2016) - so it is unlikely to be reversed in any future ICLC deliberations.

The issue cannot drag on indefinitely as soon or later, without upgrading the pitch will fail its annual test - there is a major piece of brinkmanship going on here that may end in tears.

[disgruntled]

72 years left or something like that. Des Casey, yes VP of UEFA and pushed Jack Charlton to the Ireland job, I doubt he was ever involved with Drogheda though, you may be thinking of Jim Malone.

The rest is complicated and it is disputed on what was agreed during the takeover by GM in particular.

You mean there's nothing in writing ?
Des Casey must be pretty old now I think ?
That's must be the same Casey who said that Cork Celtic be thrown out of the League when they were in financial trouble back in the 70's
A lovely man I'm sure.


The latter part of that sentence may give an incorrect impression. Hence.....



The current owners have recognised that they have not acquired the lease on Oriel Park (which is why the club cannot access major Capital Sports Grants). The contention is that the terms of the takeover agreement provides a sufficient legal basis to satisfy FAI licencing requirements (that relate to a guarantee of the use of Oriel Park for the relevant season)

This has been accepted by the Independent Club Licencing Committee (I can't type the Independent bit without laughing) for each licencing season since the takeover (2013/2014/2015/2016) - so it is unlikely to be reversed in any future ICLC deliberations.

The issue cannot drag on indefinitely as soon or later, without upgrading the pitch will fail its annual test - there is a major piece of brinkmanship going on here that may end in tears.

Yea I like the independent piece as well :rolleyes:
"major piece of brinkmanship"
If Dundalk were to say they were leaving at a certain time & go on the lookout for suitable sites it would have the effect of knocking heads together. A community type stadium complex may be the way to go & let Oriel be buried in history along with all the old dinosaurs as well.

It would be a terrible shame if nothing solid was to come out of the present success the club is enjoying on the field of play. I'm sure a lot of us can remember successful clubs down through the ages who when success waned had nothing to show for it except memories.

[mcgonigle]

Can't see us leaving Oriel unless we are getting a stadium built for us like Tallaght or Dalymount. People keep talking about our recent success and the money we're making but when you take out our running costs you're probably only taking about tens of thousands left over if at all. It would cost millions to build a new stadium and that's before you buy a site! Where's the money coming from?

[White Horse]

Can't see us leaving Oriel unless we are getting a stadium built for us like Tallaght or Dalymount. People keep talking about our recent success and the money we're making but when you take out our running costs you're probably only taking about tens of thousands left over if at all. It would cost millions to build a new stadium and that's before you buy a site! Where's the money coming from?

Quite true. The councils in Dublin seem to have have millions to spend on football grounds. Fair play to them if they have so much money, but that is not the case in Louth.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think if the current owners of DFC cannot get hold of the lease in the next few years, they might consider moving. Without the lease, only grants below 20k can be applied for I think. They have also made it clear they won't make any upgrades apart from very limited safety items, unless they get hold of the lease.

DKIT has been mentioned, but they will still need over 2 million possibly 3m to put towards it and let's be honest that is very unlikely they can raise that amount.
Get Roddy in, I'm sure he can attract some investors.

[disgruntled]

Get Roddy in, I'm sure he can attract some investors.

Yea he'd attract something all right.
Not sure what it would be though.:rolleyes:

[oriel]

When the current owners took over the club what did they take over ?
If they believe they took over the lease on Oriel as well as the club Dundalk FC then why are they sub leasing anything ?
It all sounds very complicated.

Is that the same Des Casey who was involved with Drogheda & was a UEFA delegate or on some UEFA committee ?

Well in terms of the take over back in 2012, I think the current owners bought the entity and probably what they understood was that the lease would automatically be included as has been the case in any previous take over with DFC. GM has retained this though, the current owners pay a (nominal) lease to Des Casey (owner) direct, but as the actual lease is physically still held by GM, they are in effect 'sub leasing'. There can be no doubt that GM only went looking for payment for it as he thinks the club is cash rich. On that, it appears they are not as much as people think, wages are not moderate plus waiting long periods for the actual prize money often sees a lot of it spent before it arrives, this would be the same for most clubs.

It is very confusing, but the core issue still remains, regardless of the current arrangement, until the current owners get the lease passed over into their name in terms of owning it, they cannot proceed with any redevelopments.

[ThePrisoner]

It is very confusing, but the core issue still remains, regardless of the current arrangement, until the current owners get the lease passed over into their name in terms of owning it, they cannot proceed with any redevelopments.

That's the last thing you do. The operator of the club should not hold the lease.

Follow the Sligo Rovers model with the Showgrounds. This was set up when the Showgrounds was purchased in 1968.

Get say 20+ supporters who bleed black and white and form a trust. Put the lease into the trust and set it up so that the lease can never be transferred to any other party with the exception of the owner of OP on surrender. Set it up so that the lease can never be used as security for a loan, be sold, assigned or anything else other than for the exclusive use of the entity that holds the FAI Licence to operate Dundalk FC in the LOI.

Ideally, the members of the trust should all hate each other and then they'll never agree to anything so the lease will just sit, gathering dust in a secure safe or where ever and Dundalk FC will never have to worry about their tenure in OP.

Sligo Rovers got a couple of €100k recently (2014?) to upgrade the astro pitch and grass training pitches in the Showgrounds. So the trust clearly works.

[disgruntled]

Well in terms of the take over back in 2012, I think the current owners bought the entity and probably what they understood was that the lease would automatically be included as has been the case in any previous take over with DFC. GM has retained this though, the current owners pay a (nominal) lease to Des Casey (owner) direct, but as the actual lease is physically still held by GM, they are in effect 'sub leasing'. There can be no doubt that GM only went looking for payment for it as he thinks the club is cash rich. On that, it appears they are not as much as people think, wages are not moderate plus waiting long periods for the actual prize money often sees a lot of it spent before it arrives, this would be the same for most clubs.

It is very confusing, but the core issue still remains, regardless of the current arrangement, until the current owners get the lease passed over into their name in terms of owning it, they cannot proceed with any redevelopments.

That would have been down to their legal team to make sure everything was included.
Looks like someone didn't do due diligence & now its come back to bite.
I thought this matter was due in court for sorting ?
What seems to be the delay ?

[Ezeikial]

Well in terms of the take over back in 2012, I think the current owners bought the entity and probably what they understood was that the lease would automatically be included as has been the case in any previous take over with DFC.

Oriel - do you really believe that the current owners thought they had acquired the lease and then found that this was not the case?

That would be bizarre and incredibly naive and absolutely could not be the case. The complications surrounding the lease were well known and publicly acknowledged in the protracted discussions leading up to the takeover.

The issues are complicated enough without adding further layers of confusion.

[oriel]

No, I was incorrect to suggest that.

I obviously wasn't party to the takeover terms but not ensuring the lease for the pitch was included (forget about the YDC) was a real shame as this was never going to go away. In all previous take overs with DFC the lease was included. This was obviously not the case when GM sold out to the current owners.

[oriel]

New electronic scoreboard used for the first time in Oriel Park last night, I can't post a photo, someone might be able to post it up, it looked well. Over the shed.

[patrickccfc]

[QUOTE=oriel;1862479]New electronic scoreboard used for the first time in Oriel Park last night, I can't post a photo,
someone might be able to post it up, it looked well. Over the shed.[/QUOTE

https://mobile.twitter.com/Woodsy_9/status/710967870021353472

[disgruntled]

Looks excellent.

[Ezeikial]

No, I was incorrect to suggest that.

I obviously wasn't party to the takeover terms but not ensuring the lease for the pitch was included (forget about the YDC) was a real shame as this was never going to go away. In all previous take overs with DFC the lease was included. This was obviously not the case when GM sold out to the current owners.

It beggars belief that this lease issue was not hammered out and resolved at the time of the takeover - it was in the interests of both parties to find a solution at that time.



There can be no doubt that GM only went looking for payment for it as he thinks the club is cash rich.


In simple terms:
1) GM was always looking for a payment to hand over the YDC.
2) Des Casey was unwilling to separate the YDC on to another lease, so therefore the keys to the YDC always remained invested in the lease to the ground.
3) The new owners declined to acquire the lease on the terms GM sought.

The clubs strategy to acquire the lease without a payment to GM is not clear, other then perhaps relying on Des Casey being successful in a legal action to void the original lease

[oriel]

[QUOTE=oriel;1862479]New electronic scoreboard used for the first time in Oriel Park last night, I can't post a photo,
someone might be able to post it up, it looked well. Over the shed.[/QUOTE

https://mobile.twitter.com/Woodsy_9/status/710967870021353472

Thanks for posting. I bet you had a few good looks at the score Patrick, makes nice reading from your perspective!

[patrickccfc]

[QUOTE=patrickccfc;1862480]

Thanks for posting. I bet you had a few good looks at the score Patrick, makes nice reading from your perspective!

Apologies that the only picture I seen just so happened to show the final score. Makes for good reading alright, but also good to see stadiums getting electronic scoreboards, little improvements. Turners cross had one for an Ireland u21 friendly before, pity it wasn't a permanent thing.

[Sean South]

Would it not have been better placed behind one of the goals whee no one stands? Half the ground won't be able to view it.

[Real ale Madrid]

Would it not have been better placed behind one of the goals whee no one stands? Half the ground won't be able to view it.

Just get out of here with your "logic" please.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Does anybody know what the story is with Dundalk's pitch? i thought last season was the last one before it was going to have to be ripped up and replaced?

[wonder88]

Had my first visit to the Markets Field on Saturday. Decent crowd there and a good friendly vibe around the place. They have an excellent electric score board behind one of the goals. (The one in Terryland seems to be out of order most of the time now). Any Limerick fan could tell if there is any food included when one buys a ticket for the corporate stand(20e), the view of the pitch from there should be good anyway. I decided on a terrace ticket; 12euro and used the saving to purchase a programme, which at 4 euro wasn't great value. Been to 3 different grounds for LoI games in Limerick in the last 3 years, and don't know the city well, but is this the best location wise?

[thomas72]

Had my first visit to the Markets Field on Saturday. Decent crowd there and a good friendly vibe around the place. They have an excellent electric score board behind one of the goals. (The one in Terryland seems to be out of order most of the time now). Any Limerick fan could tell if there is any food included when one buys a ticket for the corporate stand(20e), the view of the pitch from there should be good anyway. I decided on a terrace ticket; 12euro and used the saving to purchase a programme, which at 4 euro wasn't great value. Been to 3 different grounds for LoI games in Limerick in the last 3 years, and don't know the city well, but is this the best location wise?

Yes there is tea/coffee with sandwiches at HT plus a reserved seat out in the stand or you can watch it inside if you wish.
Location wise def without a doubt the best we had crowds are massively up excellent facilities the thing I noticed most there are alot of families going to games everybody going to games seems to be wearing the clubs colours the clubs commercial side looks to be doing very well jackets scarfs jerseys seems to be flying off the shelves.

I bought a scarf last week the girl inside said there onto there second bag of a 100 already thst has been unheard of in Limerick fc LOI before soccer finally seems to be taken off in the city huge potential if Limerick get it right and there on the right road.

[Lim till i die]

It's a similar distance to the city centre to Jackman Park but better location. Thomond Park is in the middle of nowhere. Narrow streets around Markets Field actually help with athmosphere. It's the fifth place iv watched Us play and it's the first where you actually feel like your going to and from a match.

Biggest change to our crowds is you now see women and children at games. It might just be my perception aswell but there seems to be a lot more country people around. There was always a bit of interest out the county but seems to be a lot of interest now.

I'd love a covered terrace on the popular side but I can't see anything being done in there for years to be honest.

[wonder88]

Yes, very noticeable the profile of the crowd; a lot of families and youngish fans. Also saw how busy the club merchandise shop was and as you mentioned many wearing the teams colours. If we get a good summer the embankment would not be a bad place to watch a game either, small fault is that the view is slightly blocked by the dugouts.
Do any club have dugouts that are actually dug into the ground anymore?

[wonder88]

" Narrow streets around Markets Field actually help with athmosphere. It's the fifth place iv watched Us play and it's the first where you actually feel like your going to and from a match". Agree with this. Reminded me a bit of going to 2nd/3rd division games over in England back in the day.

[CraftyToePoke]

It might just be my perception aswell but there seems to be a lot more country people around. There was always a bit of interest out the county but seems to be a lot of interest now.

Fair play, and out of curiosity LTID, more than anything, tell us what do you look for when profiling the demographic in the MF for these country people?

A gammy walk, or squinting up at the floodlights or rocks under their nails or what ?



My first MF game as well the other night and very impressed, also the fifth place I have seen the club play and it's definitely a cut above. Agreed, some sprucing of the popular side would set it off well but already a premier level facility with by the looks of it a team out there who would be just fine a division above also.

[Lim till i die]

Fair play, and out of curiosity LTID, more than anything, tell us what do you look for when profiling the demographic in the MF for these country people?

A gammy walk, or squinting up at the floodlights or rocks under their nails or what ?.

Mainly I speak to them in the pub or at the game.

Both my parents are from deepest, darkest west Limerick, you'll find no prejudice here!

[osarusan]

The thing that annoys me about the scoreboard in the Markets Field is the extra zero in the scores.

Limerick 06 01 Cobh.

Surely that can be disabled somehow. Even if it is just by taking the bulbs out? Ot just cover it in black tape? Something, anything.

[Charlie Darwin]

The thing that annoys me about the scoreboard in the Markets Field is the extra zero in the scores.

Limerick 06 01 Cobh.

Surely that can be disabled somehow. Even if it is just by taking the bulbs out? Ot just cover it in black tape? Something, anything.
Clearly just planning for when First Division Champions Limerick FC's goals scored figure tips into double figures. Agree you could cover the first digit in the away team's score, or possibly even both.

[GCdfc]

Does anybody know what the story is with Dundalk's pitch? i thought last season was the last one before it was going to have to be ripped up and replaced?

The only pitch in the country that consistently passes standards tests. Why rip it up when it's up to standard unlike many of the other untested pitches?

[White Horse]

The only pitch in the country that consistently passes standards tests. Why rip it up when it's up to standard unlike many of the other untested pitches?

Best pitch in the league, at the moment.

[disgruntled]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Increase the medication guys or else find a new supplier :p

[Jofspring]

Turners Cross, Tallaght Stadium, RSC and now the Markets Field all better pitches. The Astro Turfs in a few junior clubs in Limerick and the University and LIT are all better. Im sure similar around the country.

What does the test consist of? I remember Jackman park one year being like a carpet, the surroundings were obviously brutal but the pitch was immaculate but it still went down as one of the worst and Athlone Town Stadium pitch, which at the time was covered in sand, was up near the top.

[mcgonigle]

Turners Cross, Tallaght Stadium, RSC and now the Markets Field all better pitches. The Astro Turfs in a few junior clubs in Limerick and the University and LIT are all better. Im sure similar around the country.

What does the test consist of? I remember Jackman park one year being like a carpet, the surroundings were obviously brutal but the pitch was immaculate but it still went down as one of the worst and Athlone Town Stadium pitch, which at the time was covered in sand, was up near the top.

Turners Cross is poor (compared to it's usual high standard) at the moment. The argument is that the oriel pitch is consistent and allows for a passing game. Whereas some pitches are awful at this time of year and won't allow for a decent gam. I've seen Bray and Wexford so far and both were awful and will be for the foreseeable. I'm also guessing that the pitches in Finn Park, Dalymount and Derry are poor at the moment

[Dodge]

The argument is that the oriel pitch is consistent and allows for a passing game.

You would lose that argument. It is not consistent at all

[Nesta99]

Well its consistently the worst pitch in the league!

[Charlie Darwin]

Oriel is at its best this time of year before the Longford fans have showered it with minerals and crisps.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Having played on the Oriel park pitch just over a year ago it is an awful pitch. I have nothing against artificial pitches having played numerous football and rugby matches on them but they do need to be properly maintained and replaced at the end of their lifespans and Oriel park was/is not well maintained and has definitely come to the end of its lifespan.
I'd be happy for them to put down a new artificial pitch but they would need to do a better job at looking after it than they have with this one.

[mcgonigle]

You would lose that argument. It is not consistent at all

OK well my argument is that we are the best footballing team in the league whose philosophy is to play the ball on the ground. To do that you need a flat consistent surface. What's your argument and proof behind it?

[Dodge]

OK well my argument is that we are the best footballing team in the league whose philosophy is to play the ball on the ground. To do that you need a flat consistent surface. What's your argument and proof behind it?
My argument is your record away is terrific and if you had a decent pitch to play on you'd be even better

This isn't about any advantage for Dundalk, it's about a disgrace of a pitch

[Nesta99]

Isn't there a dedicated thread to the Oriel Park pitch?! There is nothing of an update to this conversation as evverrrything that can be said has already been said dozens of times........

[patrickccfc]

Isn't there a dedicated thread to the Oriel Park pitch?! There is nothing of an update to this conversation as evverrrything that can be said has already been said dozens of times........

http://foot.ie/threads/198735-Dundalk-s-pitch-and-ground-discussion-thread?highlight=oriel%20park&p=1833391#post1833391

There it is.. think everything that can be said, has been said

[oriel]

My argument is your record away is terrific and if you had a decent pitch to play on you'd be even better

This isn't about any advantage for Dundalk, it's about a disgrace of a pitch

You see this is not correct, I`m not a fan of the pitch insofar I would much prefer grass, as probably most Dundalk fans would. The look of the pitch especially on tv can give it a bad look, up close its fine and has no adverse effect on a match. If it was you would see players slipping all over the place and this doesn't happen, neither is there any un-natural bounce of a ball.

Taking all into account, I would still prefer grass but I do not see this changing anytime soon given the costs of installing and replacing it.

[nigel-harps1954]

neither is there any un-natural bounce of a ball.

You ruined any argument you had with this statement.

[oriel]

There is no issue with a bounce, if there was, there would be no way it would have passed tests to host 5 European club games since any version of the pitch was installed.

I think this season is possibly the last year of its lifespan though.

[Charlie Darwin]

I thought it was noticeable even on Soccer Republic the other day when Cork were forcing Dundalk to go more direct. They were trying to pass longer along the ground but the ball was hopping up.