Stadium Updates (All Clubs)

[EalingGreen]

Save Tolka Park campaign launched last night. I can't see it going anywhere but good luck to them. Here is their plans.

https://savetolkapark.com/proposal/
Thank you for posting this. Though I've never been to visit Tolka, it was still a treat for an old stadium nerd like me!

Two points of interest (I hope) to fellow nerds:

1. The old Main Stand has what is known in the trade as a "Belfast Roof" (i.e. barrel-shaped). This passage from a feature on the old Railway Stand at Windsor Park explains further:
"The roof of the stand is known worldwide throughout the construction industry as the ‘Belfast Roof’. Prior to the advent of cheap steel systems this type of roof was the most economical way of providing a clear span roofing of sheds and warehouses. So there you have it – the railway viewing area was no more than a shed in those days."
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/belfast-national-football-stadium-at-windsor-park-20-000.1198933/

As I understand it, this design used to be pretty popular in football grounds in Britain and Ireland, but if Tolka may not now be unique in retaining one, they must be very few and far between these days.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F15%2F6 d%2Fb7%2F156db7f234e67b481d1d89f5939baa0b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
(Railway Stand, Windsor)

2. Eamonn Dunphy states that Tolka staged the first floodlit match in Ireland. That honour goes instead to Distillery FC, who staged a game at their old Grosvenor Raod ground a little earlier:

“Distillery had lights in Belfast. We went up to Belfast – my dad, my brother and I – to see Distillery play (in a friendly against Burnley). They were the first team in the North to have floodlights and then we followed them down here.”

On St Patrick’s Day 1953, Sam Prole announced that Drumcondra would take on St Mirren in a friendly under those newly constructed floodlights on Monday, March 30th. The first competitive League of Ireland match under lights would follow a month later when Drums took on Dundalk."
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/when-dublin-lit-up-the-day-tolka-park-led-the-way-ahead-of-wembley-1.3413130

Though when I say "floodlights", I should perhaps say permanent floodlights. For Cliftonville appear to have pioneered playing under lights strung out over the pitch over 60 years earlier!

As reported in the Belfast Newsletter of the day;
"It seems to be incredible, but it is a fact that in 1891 two matches were played under electric lights at Cliftonville: Distillery defeated the Reds 4–2 and the Black Watch held Cliftonville to 2–2 draw. Kick-off in each case was at 8 pm with lights suspended across the pitch. These were dismantled later with the announcement that spectators found it difficult to follow the action and that "the player seemed to have all the fun in the middle". It had been a bold experience, but not a highly successful one with the public skeptical, almost contemptuous of this enterprising project."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliftonville_F.C.

[Hitman]

1. The old Main Stand has what is known in the trade as a "Belfast Roof" (i.e. barrel-shaped).
...
As I understand it, this design used to be pretty popular in football grounds in Britain and Ireland, but if Tolka may not now be unique in retaining one, they must be very few and far between these days.


I'm not sure on the architectural specifics, but I think the stand in the UCC Mardyke might be one.

[EalingGreen]

I'm not sure on the architectural specifics, but I think the stand in the UCC Mardyke might be one.
Looks like you're right:

https://www.footballgroundmap.com/data/headers/UCC%20header.jpg

Well Spotted!

[nigel-harps1954]

Let's not forget Finn Park and the wonderful main stand..

[D24Saint]

We had something similar in Richmond for a long time.

C703 - 1966 St. Patrick's Athletic v Waterford at Richmond Park | Irish Photo Archive (photoshelter.com) (https://irishphotoarchive.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=29&_bqH=eJxtT11LwzAU_TXriy9TmcogD1lu3C426cjHJE9hq2Jlm NbqZPjrzS1DixrIyfnISbj25jWs3ZM6rg6futxfpPvDMbmUVB3 ml1fz8.mUdkaMYAXrn.vmpU0PZ9223xcYLXAnJ7OFUpMZsJEBQ AbAyAp5kUlntuXvqvxblf9XBbowfOZyTERUXjsTItqKZGVQ6px hpUmijUaWklsJJ7kea1sZxwzXd8UwY.Qa2Hvm3koTEZin.Ztud _2xW7Wdb3O0QeM8LyNfSi0CXSqiWETMD.fqifpvam5_qCLKhWN vj9u.borN0F4OKAi_AOp.dWA-&GI_ID=)

[Dalymountrower]

Great photo.I was in that old stand in Richmond, first time I was there, when the pitch sloped down to the Camac!

[D24Saint]

Think it was there until early nineties. It was demolished for our return to Richmond.

[Nesta99]

Save Tolka Park campaign launched last night. I can't see it going anywhere but good luck to them. Here is their plans.

https://savetolkapark.com/proposal/

Plans always look great. I can understand the reasons Shels fans would want to retain Tolka, its a ground I always liked going to over the years with some fond memories. As with many urban centre grounds it is severely landlocked. It's could be a fine ground if refurbished but issues on traffic management, parking etc. local residents' objections, that tend to be exempted for existing grounds come but come back in to play when work is proposed that would change, even reduce, capacity. There is some scope to deal with such issues with the Dalymount redevelopment. That said any sort of high density apartments or the like should that may end up on Tolka should also be held to similar scrutiny.

[D24Saint]

First time I’ve seen that campaign. They seem to have put a lot of work into it. I thought Tolka going was a done deal with the redevelopment of Dalymount Park.

[pineapple stu]

Who owns Tolka these days?

Ollie sold it to Ossie back in the day and spent the money on a 0-0 draw with Depor. Googling online doesn't really reveal much more. Does he (or his company) still own it? Was there something about the deal being subject to finding Shels somewhere suitable to play (eg Dalyer)? Did it end up in NAMA?

[D24Saint]

I thought the city council owned it, be interesting to find out.

[Mr A]

Pretty sure it's the City Council yeah

[EalingGreen]

Let's not forget Finn Park and the wonderful main stand..

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ffootballtripper.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2Ffinn-park.jpg&f=1&nofb=1


We had something similar in Richmond for a long time.

C703 - 1966 St. Patrick's Athletic v Waterford at Richmond Park | Irish Photo Archive (photoshelter.com) (https://irishphotoarchive.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=29&_bqH=eJxtT11LwzAU_TXriy9TmcogD1lu3C426cjHJE9hq2Jlm NbqZPjrzS1DixrIyfnISbj25jWs3ZM6rg6futxfpPvDMbmUVB3 ml1fz8.mUdkaMYAXrn.vmpU0PZ9223xcYLXAnJ7OFUpMZsJEBQ AbAyAp5kUlntuXvqvxblf9XBbowfOZyTERUXjsTItqKZGVQ6px hpUmijUaWklsJJ7kea1sZxwzXd8UwY.Qa2Hvm3koTEZin.Ztud _2xW7Wdb3O0QeM8LyNfSi0CXSqiWETMD.fqifpvam5_qCLKhWN vj9u.borN0F4OKAi_AOp.dWA-&GI_ID=)
Cracking Photo!

The only remaining Belfast Roof I can find in NI is at Bangor FC (though there may be one or two more below the top two divisions?)

https://footballgroundguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/ards-clandeboye-park-south-stand-1465040988.jpg

Tbh, it looks to be held together more by rust than anything else, but in any event I think that that stand will be the one to be replaced when Bangor build a new stand very soon:

https://i2-prod.belfastlive.co.uk/incoming/article20737446.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_stand3.jpg
https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bangor-fc-reveal-ambitious-plans-20737425

[NeverFeltBetter]

Who owns Tolka these days?

Ollie sold it to Ossie back in the day and spent the money on a 0-0 draw with Depor. Googling online doesn't really reveal much more. Does he (or his company) still own it? Was there something about the deal being subject to finding Shels somewhere suitable to play (eg Dalyer)? Did it end up in NAMA?

DCC is said to "have control" of the site in this report: https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0612/1227708-campaigners-defiant-to-keep-shelbourne-at-tolka-park/

Slightly vague wording, but they're the ones trying to sell it.

[Nesta99]

I vaguely remember talk of the lease on Tolka when the Donnelly family were involved. Question was asked about the family/business putting money in to Tolka and ownership of the lease or the type of lease was one of the reasons mentioned. Be interesting to know the provenance of Tolka to DCC with the lease, ownership or control over it and whether there are conditions attached. Its certainly possible that it is on the basis of providing Shels with an alternative 'new' home or even that DCC have to transfer the land to developers in lieu of funding toward Dalymount? Regardless ye feel its fighting a losing battle to keep Shels in Tolka and have it redeveloped without it being a privately funded project. Would delays on final decisions on Dalymount be to do with complexty of Tolka ownership?

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, you're right on the lease. Here's a 2004 article (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/shelbourne-club-to-seek-rezoning-of-grounds-for-housing-1.1143832) noting that Shels had over 100 years left on their lease from the Council. So presumably it was the lease they sold to Kilkenny, which I suppose would explain why they didn't get anything like the €45m the article values the grounds at. Though what value the lease was to anyone else, or what it means if Kilkenny still has the lease, I don't know.

[Nesta99]

Yeah, you're right on the lease. Here's a 2004 article (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/shelbourne-club-to-seek-rezoning-of-grounds-for-housing-1.1143832) noting that Shels had over 100 years left on their lease from the Council. So presumably it was the lease they sold to Kilkenny, which I suppose would explain why they didn't get anything like the €45m the article values the grounds at. Though what value the lease was to anyone else, or what it means if Kilkenny still has the lease, I don't know.

If DCC are the owners of Tolka but someone (Kilkenny) has x number of years left on on the lease, it makes sense that DCC's way out of it is the permanent transfer of the property to leaseholder for whatever fee is agreed.

[D24Saint]

Unfortunately I cant see the campaign getting far. Its a bit like our plans for Inchicore the current housing crisis trumps everything at the moment. The council will have to get the balance right as you don't want a city in the future with no public amenities. When Tolka gets demolished then Richmond Road is another road in the city but they need housing fast and cant see them not using a site in that part of the city.

[Nesta99]

In the link PS posted, the issues that were given as a reason to move out of Tolka remain as obstacles for staying or redevelopment. They are problems for any old ground in an urban area, they are arguably reasons for exemptions in the planning process, some pragmatism from planners. Unless clubs move to greenfield sites outside a town it could cost a fortune to overcome such planning restraints. Imo its at odds with trying to revitalise some urban areas, increase footfall for areas impacted by moving the life of urban centres to greenfield sites eg retail parks. I know there is barely a mile between Dalymount and Tolka so not quite the same for Drumcondra/Phibsborough - potentially 2 premier league standard grounds in proximity doesnt make a whole lot of sense if public funding is involved.

[Martinho II]

There was a good article on Tolka park movement on RTE website today. Shane Dawson ex setanta sports commentator was on one of the podcasts LOI Central recently chatting about it . Whether its too late is another days story. The timings weird why did they not do this in the first place?

[Dalymountrower]

Yep, love Tolka, grew up less than a mile away from it. Too late for a campaign to save it though.Once the Archdiocese and the GAA did a three card trick on the land bank south of the Tolka, the stadiums fate was sealed.Grace Park Road will now continue through what was the Ballybough end across the river to access the new development.Even if the shels fans throw up as many obstacles as they can( and good luck to them) DCC will CPO the remainder of the lease for the stadium for the road and for the promised social housing.

[EatYerGreens]

Unfortunately I cant see the campaign getting far. Its a bit like our plans for Inchicore the current housing crisis trumps everything at the moment. The council will have to get the balance right as you don't want a city in the future with no public amenities. When Tolka gets demolished then Richmond Road is another road in the city but they need housing fast and cant see them not using a site in that part of the city.

The State declared its intention in Project Ireland 2040 of ensuring that 80% of population growth over the next 20yrs takes place outside of Greater Dublin. There is always a degree of disconnect between what governments say they want to do and their actions via short-term decisions, policies and budgets, so it's easy to be cynical about that ambition. Though if they can make some of the proposed infrastructure projects happen in places like Cork then they will have some chance of delivering better population spread/balance.

So all being well, in 5-10yrs time the housing pressure on Dublin will have started to ease. Which could open up opportunities for a Pats project again ?

[EatYerGreens]

There was a good article on Tolka park movement on RTE website today. Shane Dawson ex setanta sports commentator was on one of the podcasts LOI Central recently chatting about it . Whether its too late is another days story. The timings weird why did they not do this in the first place?

I don't know anything about this, but it could have just been something as basic as the right people not being involved/around/available prior to now ?

[littlebray]

We had something similar in Richmond for a long time.
C703 - 1966 St. Patrick's Athletic v Waterford at Richmond Park | Irish Photo Archive (photoshelter.com)

Not forgetting the Shed in the Carlisle Grounds (demolished 2006), also a Belfast Truss Roof.

I have a nice pic, but it doesn't seem to want to let me post it.

[EalingGreen]

Not forgetting the Shed in the Carlisle Grounds (demolished 2006), also a Belfast Truss Roof.

I have a nice pic, but it doesn't seem to want to let me post it.
I assume this is the one:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbraywanderersfc.ie%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F02%2Fshed03.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

(From the club's website: https://braywanderersfc.ie/carlisle-grounds/ )

[D24Saint]

Not forgetting the Shed in the Carlisle Grounds (demolished 2006), also a Belfast Truss Roof.

I have a nice pic, but it doesn't seem to want to let me post it.

Hard to believe it’s gone that long. I remember watching a few games in it.

[littlebray]

The same indeed, but from the front ...

[joey B]

https://www.dundalkfc.com/statement-redevelopment-group/?fbclid=IwAR1kZI1toNNd_qKmZ64HRKYbxksL6B8YuGBimdJt AVU2hWIr7s-TiTUFlFA

[nigel-harps1954]

https://www.dundalkfc.com/statement-redevelopment-group/?fbclid=IwAR1kZI1toNNd_qKmZ64HRKYbxksL6B8YuGBimdJt AVU2hWIr7s-TiTUFlFA

Well, it's a start, I suppose.

[Nesta99]

Well, it's a start, I suppose.

Where's Fitzer????:rolleyes: It is a start, and maybe further on than just the group being set up with feasibility studies already done and allegedly architect plans done up previously also or so we were told.

[CorribsideSteve]

Let's hope it actually happens, and gets built before 2030.

[ToberonaTornado]

I'm sure some of yous have seen this. I hope Dundalk fans keep putting some pressure on those involved.

https://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/home/651614/stadium-facilities-redevelopment-group-set-up-to-look-into-future-of-oriel-park.html

[Martinho II]

I'm sure some of yous have seen this. I hope Dundalk fans keep putting some pressure on those involved.

https://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/home/651614/stadium-facilities-redevelopment-group-set-up-to-look-into-future-of-oriel-park.html

Thats a bit of a coup getting Brendan Ogle in from his work in UNITE. Didnt know hes a Dundalk fan?

[Nesta99]

Thats a bit of a coup getting Brendan Ogle in from his work in UNITE. Didnt know hes a Dundalk fan?

Lifelong fan and his Dad Bobby previously also. Dont often agree with him but if he brings some bite to this committee then great.

[Yossarian]

To he honest, I think this committee is just window dressing, designed to try and appear as if some meaningful ground development is on the agenda. I don’t expect to see any significant movement on ground development in the short or medium term. I’d love to be proven wrong but decades of no investment in the ground has me very skeptical.

[ToberonaTornado]

To he honest, I think this committee is just window dressing, designed to try and appear as if some meaningful ground development is on the agenda. I don’t expect to see any significant movement on ground development in the short or medium term. I’d love to be proven wrong but decades of no investment in the ground has me very skeptical.

I'd be sceptical like yourself but i think that apart from the FC bunch there's a decent cross section of people and a lot of egos there that could actually drive this on.

[Nesta99]

To he honest, I think this committee is just window dressing, designed to try and appear as if some meaningful ground development is on the agenda. I don’t expect to see any significant movement on ground development in the short or medium term. I’d love to be proven wrong but decades of no investment in the ground has me very skeptical.

Its a start and no more, be nice to knock the skeptics back though!

[bohsmug]

To he honest, I think this committee is just window dressing, designed to try and appear as if some meaningful ground development is on the agenda. I don’t expect to see any significant movement on ground development in the short or medium term. I’d love to be proven wrong but decades of no investment in the ground has me very skeptical.

It would be great if something came to pass but I'd fear the same. It wouldn't need to be the most expensive project of all time. Something like the stands Larne have put in behind each goal would make a massive improvement. A new main stand would probably cost a bit tbf. I'd imagine it would be quite difficult to do much on the main stand side of the ground without knocking the existing structure?

[nigel-harps1954]

A renovation of the main stand in Oriel, extending out the sides, and filling in the two ends, and you've got a grand ground.

[EatYerGreens]

To he honest, I think this committee is just window dressing, designed to try and appear as if some meaningful ground development is on the agenda. I don’t expect to see any significant movement on ground development in the short or medium term. I’d love to be proven wrong but decades of no investment in the ground has me very skeptical.

I'd be minded to agree. You don't need a committee to improve a stadium, & it's not like Dundalk have a tradition of committees for everything either. It feels like that jogging-walk that players do when being subbed off whilst 1 goal up - i.e. an attempt to look like you're in a hurry when you're clearly going as slow as you can possibly get away with.

[GUFCghost]

Should the ambition not be a category 4 stadium? This is the only club in the LOI that has qualified for group stages multiple times

[Charlie Darwin]

Should the ambition not be a category 4 stadium? This is the only club in the LOI that has qualified for group stages multiple times
The ambition, like every other club, should be incremental and affordable improvement in facilities. Going for broke with a Cat 4 stadium when there's two options to play games in Dublin is questionable.

[Buller]

The ambition, like every other club, should be incremental and affordable improvement in facilities. Going for broke with a Cat 4 stadium when there's two options to play games in Dublin is questionable.

I'd have it agree. The build it up slowly method is paying dividends now for the NI clubs, rather than the LOI cat4 moonshot plans which haven't yielded a new stand in nearly a decade.
Cat3 (4,500+ seater) can accommodate all qualifiers up to playoffs and group stages afaik.

[EatYerGreens]

I'd have it agree. The build it up slowly method is paying dividends now for the NI clubs, rather than the LOI cat4 moonshot plans which haven't yielded a new stand in nearly a decade.
Cat3 (4,500+ seater) can accommodate all qualifiers up to playoffs and group stages afaik.

Mark Farren stand at the Brandywell?

Apart from Windsor - which was a one-off case - the only new stand I can think of in that time period in the IL is Larne ? And that was courtesy of a very wealthy owner. Maybe Seaview at an absolute stretch time-wise ?

[EalingGreen]

Mark Farren stand at the Brandywell?

Apart from Windsor - which was a one-off case - the only new stand I can think of in that time period in the IL is Larne ? And that was courtesy of a very wealthy owner. Maybe Seaview at an absolute stretch time-wise ?You're right, not much to date recently, but one or two developments look to be imminent.

Eg Crues got Planning Permission in February to replace the Main Stand:
https://twitter.com/CrusadersFC/status/1362399571217948672

Bangor also hopeful:
https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bangor-fc-reveal-ambitious-plans-20737425

And I think Dundela sold some land for redevelopment and built a couple of wee stands with the proceeds:
"Wilgar Park, with its 2,500 capacity ground and tucked tightly between Dundela Crescent, Dundela Avenue and Wilgar Avenue, has been undergoing redevelopment work. Across from the social club two newly constructed stands have recently been completed."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55002513

Big talk, too, from Coleraine, though I've no idea how far they'll get beyond Phase One (3G pitch, already done):
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/northern-ireland/councillors-give-backing-to-proposed-stadium-development-at-coleraine-showgrounds-3277348

There's £36m(?) due from Stormont for sub-regional stadiium development soon, though a big chunk (£10m?) is said to have been earmarked for The Oval, after which Coleraine (above) and a whole lot of other clubs are preparing plans in the hope of getting a share, eg Larne/Carrick/Ballymena:
https://www.midandeastantrim.gov.uk/resident/sport-and-leisure/mea-united

So there should be some progress here and there, though it's impossible for them all to get what they want.

[Dalymountrower]

You're right, not much to date recently, but one or two developments look to be imminent.



And I think Dundela sold some land for redevelopment and built a couple of wee stands with the proceeds:
"Wilgar Park, with its 2,500 capacity ground and tucked tightly between Dundela Crescent, Dundela Avenue and Wilgar Avenue, has been undergoing redevelopment work. Across from the social club two newly constructed stands have recently been completed."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55002513


.

I love the look of ground in Dundela,, as you say tucked into a little hollow surrounded by neat terraced houses above it. Passed by it many times , but havent been that far east for a couple of years. Tempted to catch a game there and see how they shoehorned two new stands in there

[Longfordian]

Novel and cost effective idea from LTFC to restore the colour in the seats in the main stand. All you need is a blowtorch and gas.

https://twitter.com/JayDonnelly_93/status/1422870391303905288?s=19

[Nesta99]

Novel and cost effective idea from LTFC to restore the colour in the seats in the main stand. All you need is a blowtorch and gas.

https://twitter.com/JayDonnelly_93/status/1422870391303905288?s=19

i like that!

[oriel]

A renovation of the main stand in Oriel, extending out the sides, and filling in the two ends, and you've got a grand ground.

Always thought same myself, if we had this the covered seating could be almost 2k that side alone with a great view. Town end nothing behind to obstruct only petrol station, other side a few houses, but one is Des Casey's who's family own Oriel in trust.

Then move to behind the goals, and last part shed side.

If only so easy.......................

[nigel-harps1954]

Always thought same myself, if we had this the covered seating could be almost 2k that side alone with a great view. Town end nothing behind to obstruct only petrol station, other side a few houses, but one is Des Casey's who's family own Oriel in trust.

Then move to behind the goals, and last part shed side.

If only so easy.......................

Isn't there ~1,100 seats in that main stand already? Extending the same length out both sides, you'd easily have 3,000 seats alone at that side.