Stadium Updates (All Clubs)

[D24Saint]

Yes just on the news the DCC are ‘talking’ with - downside is that utter useless ex failed minister and chancer Finian McGrath is on the Shels board and currently being interviewed on RTE

Anyway no doubt the giant SF magic money tree will offer to provide the financing for Shels and also magically commit to building houses on the Tolka Park site

People who worked in politics know how the system works so I’d say his involvement has helped their cause. As for the rest let’s not turn Foot.ie into politics.ie and restrict our opinions to football matters.

[EatYerGreens]

If Tolka Park isn't used for flats then that would leave DCC with a hole in both their budget for Dalymount and their housing targets. And it's hard to see how selling the stadium would do much financially to bridge either of thse gaps. No doubt a political call will have to be made on this at some point - which is probably all that could save Tolka - but the Council will be mindful that the cost of it could be high to them.

Has there been any flood alleviation work done to the Tolka River btw ?

[Calcio Jack]

You don't work for RTÉ by any chance do you Calcio? Or maybe your involved with FF/FG?
You can't seem to post something without making reference to Sinn Féin-worried much😊?

No don’t work for RTE - as for SF comments not worried about them or any other party - just being sarcastic which I’m happy to do in relation to all parties- and as mentioned ( and rightly so )in a subsequent post by D24Saint this is not a political forum so apologies to all for going down that route and will try to refrain in future

[D24Saint]

If Tolka Park isn't used for flats then that would leave DCC with a hole in both their budget for Dalymount and their housing targets. And it's hard to see how selling the stadium would do much financially to bridge either of thse gaps. No doubt a political call will have to be made on this at some point - which is probably all that could save Tolka - but the Council will be mindful that the cost of it could be high to them.

Has there been any flood alleviation work done to the Tolka River btw ?

Afaik work was done on the tolka a good few years back.

[Longfordian]

The DCC statement said there would be no financial impact on them or the State under the proposal but it'll be interesting to see the details in due course

[Martinho II]

The DCC statement said there would be no financial impact on them or the State under the proposal but it'll be interesting to see the details in due course

Yeah heard great news for Shels on Game On. Fair play to you. I think the Shels crew have done a blinder with Save Tolka Park movement. Its getting more and more PR every week. I for one dont want it to go!

[placid casual]

Hopefully Shels can get Tolka done up into a decent, habitable stadium. It would be good for the league to have one on the northside.

[D24Saint]

Fair play to the Save Tolka Park campaign. When they started I thought I was too little too late. The campaign has really gathered pace and now has a chance to achieve its goal. It would be a shame imo to remove a cultural icon from the city to be replaced by a block of generic apartment buildings.

[bohsmug]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/shelbourne-fc-seek-to-purchase-tolka-park-from-dublin-council-1.4806289?


Contrary to media reports, Shelbourne are adamant that they have not pulled out of the ground-sharing agreement with Bohemians while Dalymount Park is being redeveloped into a 6,000-capacity arena.

The situation is clear as mud. Although I'm not sure who at Shelbourne is "adamant that they have not pulled out" as it doesn't seem to be attributed to a person or statement that I can see. Is Tolka Park still prone to flooding and/or pools of water around the Ballybough End and Riverside Stand? I have zero knowledge when it comes to floodplains but it could make a modest but effective redevelopment unrealistic. You'd imagine access would have to be improved too. I know STP had suggestions around that.

[Philosophizer]

Fair play to them, but when you remove emotion from this situation it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to have 2 football stadiums only a couple of km apart, when both of them are idle for most days of the year. And that's before you even think about the housing crisis and the homeless crisis.

[total hoofball]

Sunday Times reporting Shels are receiving a substantial 7 figure investment from a US consortium, Shels taking back Tolka looking very realistic now

[D24Saint]

Sunday Times reporting Shels are receiving a substantial 7 figure investment from a US consortium, Shels taking back Tolka looking very realistic now

The indo has the story aswell.

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/shelbournes-bid-to-buy-back-tolka-park-receives-boost-with-seven-figure-investment-from-us-firm-41365087.html

[EatYerGreens]

Sunday Times reporting Shels are receiving a substantial 7 figure investment from a US consortium, Shels taking back Tolka looking very realistic now

Prediction : There's a high chance this will not end well for Shels. Just like Arkaga and Peak 6. People with little or no genuine interest in our league or its clubs do not turn up promising loads of money for positive reaosons. I know Shels are deperate, but this could see them end up losing Tolka anyway and/or go bust. #DangerHere

[sbgawa]

If the first thing the yanks do is buy a stadium its a fair bit more than arkaga or peak 6 ever did but at the same time I suspect it won't end well as usual when the yanks realise there is no money here in football

[Nesta99]

Irish Sea need a ground!?

[total hoofball]

Prediction : There's a high chance this will not end well for Shels. Just like Arkaga and Peak 6. People with little or no genuine interest in our league or its clubs do not turn up promising loads of money for positive reaosons. I know Shels are deperate, but this could see them end up losing Tolka anyway and/or go bust. #DangerHere
I'm always cynical about any foreign entity who becomes suddenly involved in a LOI club but I do know that Shels chairman Andrew Doyle is no idiot and with his legal background and industry reputation I would be more confident than most LOI owners that he won't screw himself by entangling the club with a bunch cowboys that would result in a block of flats being built on Tolka and Shels playing out of a DCC public park

[EatYerGreens]

I'm always cynical about any foreign entity who becomes suddenly involved in a LOI club but I do know that Shels chairman Andrew Doyle is no idiot and with his legal background and industry reputation I would be more confident than most LOI owners that he won't screw himself by entangling the club with a bunch cowboys that would result in a block of flats being built on Tolka and Shels playing out of a DCC public park

One simple question, regardless of how smart those involved with the club alleged are* =

How will these Americans get the money used to buy Tolka back ? Nevermind interest, a profit etc ?

*(A lot of supposedly 'smart' people have done very stupid things when it comes to football).

[total hoofball]

One simple question, regardless of how smart those involved with the club alleged are* =

How will these Americans get the money used to buy Tolka back ? Nevermind interest, a profit etc ?

*(A lot of supposedly 'smart' people have done very stupid things when it comes to football).
Everyone is awaiting to hear the devil of detail of how the club will fund this but the club appear to be confident going by their statement last week. As I said Doyle has built a good reputation as a corporate lawyer and businessman for two/three decades I would be confident he isn't suddenly leading or being duped into some landgrab off the council though everything around Tolka has to subject to serious scrutiny after the fallout Ollie Byrne and Ossie Kilkenny deal. I would think the publicity generated by the STP campaign will put pressure on DCC adding some condition of any buy back that Shels cannot apply for future rezoning of Tolka

[sbgawa]

doyle has gone from ucd to rovers to Shels so its not a lifelong love of shels that has him there
id expect to see a small stadium with appartments and commercial parts that makes it all add up
And what harm if shels end up with a useable stadium of their own
Dalymount if it is ever built would be another plus

[pineapple stu]

He studied in UCD but I don't think he was ever involved with the football club?

[EatYerGreens]

Everyone is awaiting to hear the devil of detail of how the club will fund this but the club appear to be confident going by their statement last week. As I said Doyle has built a good reputation as a corporate lawyer and businessman for two/three decades I would be confident he isn't suddenly leading or being duped into some landgrab off the council though everything around Tolka has to subject to serious scrutiny after the fallout Ollie Byrne and Ossie Kilkenny deal. I would think the publicity generated by the STP campaign will put pressure on DCC adding some condition of any buy back that Shels cannot apply for future rezoning of Tolka

That suggests one way in which they WON'T get their money back. But doesn't answer my question of how WILL they get it back ? They're Venture Capitalists after all, not a charity.

[EatYerGreens]

doyle has gone from ucd to rovers to Shels so its not a lifelong love of shels that has him there
id expect to see a small stadium with appartments and commercial parts that makes it all add up
And what harm if shels end up with a useable stadium of their own
Dalymount if it is ever built would be another plus

Hard to see how they could deliver all of that on a relatively small confined site in a way that would generate enough extra profit to both pay back the initial investmennt and add a significant return on top of it too. Sounds like trying to do too many things with a small site.

[bohsmug]

doyle has gone from ucd to rovers to Shels so its not a lifelong love of shels that has him there
id expect to see a small stadium with appartments and commercial parts that makes it all add up
And what harm if shels end up with a useable stadium of their own
Dalymount if it is ever built would be another plus

I suppose if that scenario were to come true it depends on how much is used for apartments. It's not a huge space.

EDIT: Didn't see EatYerGreens reply. Mine looks a bit silly under that. Like I tried to make a crapper version of the same point. :shame:

[Nesta99]

It is possible with a bit of thought, Pats toyed with the idea but FC Vozdovac in Serbia shoehorned a ground and retail in to a small site, worth a look! Whether local residents or city planners have the courage to try something different is another story. Funnily enough with the move away from poured concrete stadium structures the newer systems could have been ideal for Bohs and Dalymount where the ground could have been sold to the shopping centre, for example, while also being kept for football - its not quite selling the place twice but in the ball park.

[bohsmug]

It is possible with a bit of thought, Pats toyed with the idea but FC Vozdovac in Serbia shoehorned a ground and retail in to a small site, worth a look! Whether local residents or city planners have the courage to try something different is another story. Funnily enough with the move away from poured concrete stadium structures the newer systems could have been ideal for Bohs and Dalymount where the ground could have been sold to the shopping centre, for example, while also being kept for football - its not quite selling the place twice but in the ball park.

OK I googled. Actually think this stadium was spoken about when Pats had their plans. http://stadiumdb.com/stadiums/ser/stadion_vozdovac

[EalingGreen]

FC Vozdovac in Serbia shoehorned a ground and retail in to a small site, worth a look! Whether local residents or city planners have the courage to try something different is another story. Funnily enough with the move away from poured concrete stadium structures the newer systems could have been ideal for Bohs and Dalymount where the ground could have been sold to the shopping centre
Great spot (if you're a stadium nerd like me, at any rate!).


https://youtu.be/2FIzl3Dnq0s

The only thing is, Wiki has the stadium cost at €22m, which was in 2011/12 and at Serbian construction costs - I'd say you could be looking at least 50% more (100%?) to build in Dublin at the present time. While a shopping centre to pay for it is nowhere nearly so lucrative since Covid/online shopping etc.

And while property prices are going crazy in Dublin, I'm not sure you could build a stadium on top of blocks of flats lol.

EDIT: Just seen Bohsmug's post.

[sbgawa]

One model ive seen is 4 stands but with the corners filled in by Appartment blocks instead of wrap around seating.
Tallaght Stadium is an example of a stadium that could incorporate that type of system (might keep the wind out :) )

[EalingGreen]

One model ive seen is 4 stands but with the corners filled in by Appartment blocks instead of wrap around seating.
Tallaght Stadium is an example of a stadium that could incorporate that type of system (might keep the wind out :) )
That's basically what Leyton Orient did at Brisbane Road:

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/aerial-view-of-the-matchroom-stadium-the-home-of-leyton-orient-club-picture-id656717152?s=2048x2048

Mind you, they did have Barry Hearn behind them - the same boy could make money selling ice to Eskimos!

Also interesting pic of the ground back in the day:

https://pixels.com/featured/leyton-orient-brisbane-road-aerial-view-1-looking-south-east-legendary-football-grounds.html

[EatYerGreens]

One model ive seen is 4 stands but with the corners filled in by Appartment blocks instead of wrap around seating.
Tallaght Stadium is an example of a stadium that could incorporate that type of system (might keep the wind out :) )

Leyton Orient did something similar.

That kind of approach would work for a club developing a stadium, as it would probably generate the surplus needed to pay for the rest. The problem here with Tolka is that the site needs to be paid for, and there's also a third entity who need a return too. Which goes back to the point I made previoiusly about trying to do too much with the site. They need to generate income form Tolka to :

1) Buy the site, and cover DCC's costs-to-date.
2) Re-develop the site for football.
3) Re-develop the site for non-football uses which will return a large capital sum to pay off the costs of 1, 2 and 3 (e.g. housing)
4) Provide a profit/return for the Venture Capitalists.

If Shels already owned Tolka then I could see a redevelopment model working. But otherwise I can't see how such a confined and relatively small site can generate the revenue to cover all 4 of the above. 3 of them maybe, but not all 4.

[Nesta99]

Yup it could have been around the St Pats plan that it came to attention first. Its just an example really, with a bespoke design it could tick boxes. Residential units could be incorporated, eg a scaled down version of Southend Utd's plans. Most of the cost goes in to groundworks, foundation (so done already for a new ground level build), and the old fashioned poured concrete done away with so no need to be at ground level always for football. Current methods mean it is no more cost prohibitive to add a LoI sized ground on top of a new building than it is to build stand types like the original one in Tallaght or Stranrolar on a greenfield site. Its frustrating to see these newer methods overlooked here, a misperception that 'prefab' is always bad/temporary. Cheaper, quicker, more flexible in tight plots of land, less disruption, 'greener', UEFA accredited etc. The only real reason i can think of that that there is resistance is that grants are not allocated unless certain methods/construction companies are used which could be down to vested interests politically. Louth GAAs cost of a new stadium is ridiculous for what its to deliver and that cost, to the tax payer, is increasing by the day. The down side to any significant development to Tolka or even Dalymount is that they can never fully meet UEFA Cat 4 rating on non capacity issues. They would also probably have to have an artificial surface.

[bohsmug]

One model ive seen is 4 stands but with the corners filled in by Appartment blocks instead of wrap around seating.
Tallaght Stadium is an example of a stadium that could incorporate that type of system (might keep the wind out :) )

Have often thought that would be the best option with Tallaght. Not apartment blocks but buildings housing community facilities, council offices or something. Don't need any additional capacity, particularly once the final stand is built.

[joey B]

Brisbane road in London,Leyton Orients ground has apartment blocks in the 4 corners of the ground,the land was sold to developers to raise funds….

[ashbournebohs]

I love Tolka as a Bohs fan we won a league there etc etc.The problem I feel with any development big or small is the accessibility to it. Even now Essentially 4000 people are walking out 2 gates onto the 1 road. This issue I feel holds the site back somewhat . I'm sure there are work arounds regarding the Tolka side etc but that might increase any costs

[redarmyfaction]

any artist designs on what it will look like, sam??

The designs I seen had floating cars in them.

[Neish]

I love Tolka as a Bohs fan we won a league there etc etc.The problem I feel with any development big or small is the accessibility to it. Even now Essentially 4000 people are walking out 2 gates onto the 1 road. This issue I feel holds the site back somewhat . I'm sure there are work arounds regarding the Tolka side etc but that might increase any costs

Thought the same, been at Tolka or 3 or 4 occasions when there was large crowds and it can be a chaotic.

See many Harps fans favouring a redevelopment of the current Finn Park over the long delayed new ground across the river in Stranorlar. And as much as I'd love to stay at there, Finn Park's location is far from ideal from hosting big crowds, anything over 2k and Navenny street is a congested nightmare. Thats not to mention complicationS of the actual development of the current Finn Park, with a fairly busy road on one side, Aldi on the opposite side. the river at one end and private property at the terraced town end

[bohsmug]

The STP group do have a suggestion for developing access behind the Ballybough End. That would feed the Riverside. Back when Tolka Park hosted FAI Cup finals the queue to get in to the Riverside would last for a while into the first half. The queue would tend to wrap around the perimeter of the pitch. I'd a friend who was caught on camera in that queue while pulling a sickie from work :D

[Glen Of Aherlow]

I totally get Shels fans wanting to stay at Tolka but the big fear would be that it all ends up with nothing happening with either Dalymount or Tolka , which is no use to either club

[oriel]

I thought the pitch at the Brandywell looked just dreadful on the tv game v Rovers, loads of white patches in both boxes, and before anyone jumps on, I am not a fan of the pitch in Dundalk, hoping grass will be installed next season.

Been to Derry on two stop overs in 2019 and had a ball, brilliant craic with the fans, and a great city, so this is not a dig, I just think that pitch doesn't get half the criticism it probably should get and it also looked terrible for our visit there last August.

[EalingGreen]

I thought the pitch at the Brandywell looked just dreadful on the tv game v Rovers, loads of white patches in both boxes...

... I just think that pitch doesn't get half the criticism it probably should get and it also looked terrible for our visit there last August.
Remember that Institute have also been playing there since their ground was flooded out, so double the number of matches, with no sign of that changing any time soon
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-47744605

On top of which, it's not just a game every week, but lately it's been two storms every week!:eek:

[oriel]

Yep - aware of that re Institute, but still looks in bad shape and not getting looked after, the pitch in oriel park had some bad seasons, but never saw it as bad as the white patches in both boxes in Brandywell.

The pitch aside, its a lovely stadium, fully seated and covered, and a great view from all seats.

[nigel-harps1954]

I don't think the pitch is properly looked after in the Brandywell. Took a walk on it after a Harps game last season and was shocked at the surface. It's really awful. Rock hard.

[Nesta99]

If it is that poor remedial work will have to be done either before or after UEFA testing. One of the benefits of annual testing is that its shows whether a pitch is deteriorating or just isnt being maintained.

[EalingGreen]

Thank you for posting this. Though I've never been to visit Tolka, it was still a treat for an old stadium nerd like me!

Two points of interest (I hope) to fellow nerds:

1. The old Main Stand has what is known in the trade as a "Belfast Roof" (i.e. barrel-shaped). This passage from a feature on the old Railway Stand at Windsor Park explains further:
"The roof of the stand is known worldwide throughout the construction industry as the ‘Belfast Roof’. Prior to the advent of cheap steel systems this type of roof was the most economical way of providing a clear span roofing of sheds and warehouses. So there you have it – the railway viewing area was no more than a shed in those days."
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/belfast-national-football-stadium-at-windsor-park-20-000.1198933/

As I understand it, this design used to be pretty popular in football grounds in Britain and Ireland, but if Tolka may not now be unique in retaining one, they must be very few and far between these days.

Forgive me for quoting my own post - and taking the thread away from new ground redevelopment etc (the nerd in me can't resist!) - but there's a new book out on the history of Windsor Park and the author's twitter page hasd a couple of great photo's of a Belfast Roof at Celtic Park (home of Belfast Celtic, which also staged greyhounds and trotting) and Solitude:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIK8YyOWYAEEawM?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIK8Yx0X0AMyAdp?format=jpg&name=small

Also one of the actual truss design, taken after a storm blew the cover off the Railway Stand (I assume) at Windsor:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIK8CIAXIAIMvPm?format=jpg&name=small

https://twitter.com/joecassells1?lang=en

[TonyD]

Forgive me for quoting my own post - and taking the thread away from new ground redevelopment etc (the nerd in me can't resist!) - but there's a new book out on the history of Windsor Park and the author's twitter page hasd a couple of great photo's of a Belfast Roof at Celtic Park (home of Belfast Celtic, which also staged greyhounds and trotting) and Solitude:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIK8YyOWYAEEawM?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIK8Yx0X0AMyAdp?format=jpg&name=small

Also one of the actual truss design, taken after a storm blew the cover off the Railway Stand (I assume) at Windsor:



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIK8CIAXIAIMvPm?format=jpg&name=small

https://twitter.com/joecassells1?lang=en

The old stand in Richmond Park used to have one of those Belfast roofs as fa as I can remember. That stand was demolished and replaced in the early 90’s when Pats moved out for a couple of seasons.

[EalingGreen]

The old stand in Richmond Park used to have one of those Belfast roofs as fa as I can remember. That stand was demolished and replaced in the early 90’s when Pats moved out for a couple of seasons.
Indeed - D24Saint referenced it in post #6705:

Click on:
https://www.irishphotoarchive.ie/gallery-image/1966-St-Patricks-Athletic-v-Waterford-at-Richmond-Park/G0000QINTd78ieU0/I0000MYiU1mF5ckc/C0000mCGvJrfO5gk

These barrel rooves must have been everywhere for a while (i.e. not just Ireland, but GB as well), but lived on longer here as grounds weren't updated so frequently (if at all!).

[punkrocket]

I wonder how come they're called Belfast roofs? They look more agricultural than industrial. Very popular design for haysheds.

[Nesta99]

The structural trusses of a Belfast roof were first designed in Belfast hence the name and were to support large roofs that hadnt support from weight bearing walls on all sides so were suitable for stands in football grounds....and hay sheds. I think we associate them more with farm yard barns because they are more about still these days (different materials but seemed to keep the old curved roof) than the original industrial buildings of that design or the old football stands in Ireland and UK. The trusses were wooden, so cheap but able to carry the weight of the roof, and probably why there are so few public use buildings of that style or design left. When steel RSJs became the standard rather than wood joists, flat rooves needed less material so were then cheaper. Nerd stuff!!

[JC_GUFC]

Forgive me for quoting my own post - and taking the thread away from new ground redevelopment etc (the nerd in me can't resist!) - but there's a new book out on the history of Windsor Park and the author's twitter page hasd a couple of great photo's of a Belfast Roof at Celtic Park (home of Belfast Celtic, which also staged greyhounds and trotting) and Solitude:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIK8Yx0X0AMyAdp?format=jpg&name=small


Is this Solitude? I wouldn't recognise it at all. I presume this is facing where the stand currently is rather than being an image of the opposite side which is closed off - it doesn't look like there was ever anything in place there.
The stand in that photo looks better than the one that is currently there.

[EalingGreen]

Is this Solitude? I wouldn't recognise it at all. I presume this is facing where the stand currently is rather than being an image of the opposite side which is closed off - it doesn't look like there was ever anything in place there.
The stand in that photo looks better than the one that is currently there.
I must confess that I 'm not absolutely certain, now you mention it.

It does look like the old Olympia Drive (North) Stand at Windsor, cigarette advertising and all except that I don't ever recall it having those support stanchions. Also you should probably be able to see the corner of the Railway Stand (behind the goal to the right of the pic), while those trees(?) behind, and the setting generally don't look anything like The Village.

And by a process of elimination, if it isn't Windsor, then I can't think what other Belfast ground it could be if not Solitude. Looking at Cliftonville's website page covering the History of Solitude, there is an old photo which indicates it may be the terraced stand on the Waterworks side i.e. opposite where the old Main Stand is now:

https://cliftonvillefc.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Solitude1024x768-768x443.jpg

https://cliftonvillefc.net/history-of-solitude/

P.S. With one of those teams playing in plain red shirts, aside from Cliftonville, only Portadown also wore that colour back in the day amongst the senior IL teams.

[Kingdom]

I must confess that I 'm not absolutely certain, now you mention it.

It does look like the old Olympia Drive (North) Stand at Windsor, cigarette advertising and all except that I don't ever recall it having those support stanchions. Also you should probably be able to see the corner of the Railway Stand (behind the goal to the right of the pic), while those trees(?) behind, and the setting generally don't look anything like The Village.



Fortwilliam church spire in the background of the colour photo?