Stadium Updates (All Clubs)

[DCWA]

banned outright by who… fifa or FAI?
You couldn’t expect teams in the far north to have natural grass. Good luck with a grass pitch in somewhere like Bodo Glimt or Rovoniemi. They’re inside the arctic circle!

I don’t know the answer to that question. What I have based that statement on is other associations banning them at a professional level (i.e the Netherlands). My thinking (perhaps wrongly) is that this something thay may spread rendering them essentially banned… perhaps there will be exceptions as you point out or perhaps I have just jumped the gun… either way my main concern was here in Ireland. Get rid of them all ASAP.

[Shinkicker]

I don’t know the answer to that question. What I have based that statement on is other associations banning them at a professional level (i.e the Netherlands). My thinking (perhaps wrongly) is that this something thay may spread rendering them essentially banned… perhaps there will be exceptions as you point out or perhaps I have just jumped the gun… either way my main concern was here in Ireland. Get rid of them all ASAP.

Larne's pitch in probably the best artificial pitch in the province. It's about 4 years old and now not up to standard required for champions league qualifiers. Derry and Dundalk will probably have to play at alternative venues unless the standard isn't as high for the lesser competitions.

[pineapple stu]

Would have thought the requirements would be the same in both? Tends to just get tighter as you progress through the rounds

[brendy_éire]

Planning permission for the new terrace in the Brandywell has been lodged.

It'll be a covered, 2.5k capacity terrace, allowable for European matches.
It will involve taking away part of the Southend Stand, that's block A and half of B, where the away fans usually go.
Away fans will be moved to the opposite end of the stand, Blocks K/L/M.

Assuming permission is granted, construction is due to start in October.

[EatYerGreens]

It is no worse than Brandywell/Oriel and with any luck both of those will be turned down also as much as it might be a short term pain in the backside it might put nail in coffin for these pitches once and for all as surely no club would be stupid enough to put another one in knowing the tide has very much turned against them and they could be outright banned soon anyway.

The pitch has been ruled out because it's had too much usage, and its life span said it would need replacing round about now anyway. UEFA haven't just decided on a whim that they don't like it.

So long as Oriel and Brandywell surfaces aren't similalrly worn out before their recomennded life span, they will be passed to play on. More clubs continue to install plastic pitches all the time, including in Ireland (e.g Coleraine). Something like half the Irish League clubs (?) have artifical grass now.

[Philosophizer]

Planning permission for the new terrace in the Brandywell has been lodged.

It'll be a covered, 2.5k capacity terrace, allowable for European matches.
It will involve taking away part of the Southend Stand, that's block A and half of B, where the away fans usually go.
Away fans will be moved to the opposite end of the stand, Blocks K/L/M.

Assuming permission is granted, construction is due to start in October.
Fantastic to hear this. Fair play to the club (and POD who I’m sure must be bankrolling it) for moving ahead with development while the other stand expansion is still caught up in red tape.

[EatYerGreens]

Planning permission for the new terrace in the Brandywell has been lodged.

It'll be a covered, 2.5k capacity terrace, allowable for European matches.
It will involve taking away part of the Southend Stand, that's block A and half of B, where the away fans usually go.
Away fans will be moved to the opposite end of the stand, Blocks K/L/M.

Assuming permission is granted, construction is due to start in October.

Wow! That's a big terrace for behind a goals! Great to hear this. Are there drawings for it anywhere?

What will the net increase in capacity be once those existing blocks are removed to make way for it?

[DCWA]

The pitch has been ruled out because it's had too much usage, and its life span said it would need replacing round about now anyway. UEFA haven't just decided on a whim that they don't like it.


I am very aware of all that, my comment on it being no worse than the Brandywell or Oriel is in relation to their current states. Larne have the exact same pitch as Derry and installed at the same time. The pitch in Inver was in no worse condition in terms of wear etc than the Brandywell definitely from what I seen of it a few months ago. This is obviously to the naked eye so hardly scientific but I imagine Derry at least must be very concerned now.

[Shinkicker]

I am very aware of all that, my comment on it being no worse than the Brandywell or Oriel is in relation to their current states. Larne have the exact same pitch as Derry and installed at the same time. The pitch in Inver was in no worse condition in terms of wear etc than the Brandywell definitely from what I seen of it a few months ago. This is obviously to the naked eye so hardly scientific but I imagine Derry at least must be very concerned now.
Derry and Larne are full time, so we asume they train on the pitches daily. As far as I know Larne don't ground share but Derry do with institute. It also depends if the clubs academies and underage teams also use the pitches.
There could be a Dear John letter on its was to Derry. Don't know about Dundalk pitch usage.

[EatYerGreens]

Derry and Larne are full time, so we asume they train on the pitches daily. As far as I know Larne don't ground share but Derry do with institute. It also depends if the clubs academies and underage teams also use the pitches.
There could be a Dear John letter on its was to Derry. Don't know about Dundalk pitch usage.

I would guess it's the frequent/non-stop community usage on both pitches that is the issue, rather than underage teams training there a couple of times a week. Both pitches seem to be rented out/used by the community a lot, so presumably even if the underage teams weren't using it that slot would be rented to someone else instead anyway.

This puts a question mark over the whole model of cluhs installing artifical pitches to raise income by renting them out (and often securing capital grants to install them by portraying them as community hubs).

[brendy_éire]

Wow! That's a big terrace for behind a goals! Great to hear this. Are there drawings for it anywhere?

What will the net increase in capacity be once those existing blocks are removed to make way for it?

No drawings yet, no.

Not sure what new capacity would be, but probably something around the 6k mark.
There is another phase still to come for the newer stand too, just waiting on money to be released for it.

[Philosophizer]

What will the net increase in capacity be once those existing blocks are removed to make way for it?
Losing block A and half of block B will mean they’ll lose about 300-ish seats.
So net increase would be 2200.
Current capacity is 3700, so the new terrace would bring total capacity up to 5900.
When the Mark Farren stand is extended at both ends that would then add another 1300 or so, bringing the total to around 7200.

[EatYerGreens]

Losing block A and half of block B will mean they’ll lose about 300-ish seats.
So net increase would be 2200.
Current capacity is 3700, so the new terrace would bring total capacity up to 5900.
When the Mark Farren stand is extended at both ends that would then add another 1300 or so, bringing the total to around 7200.

Very interesting, thanks.

With that new stand being terracing, the stadium wouldn't meet the requirements for UEFA Category 4 games (min 8,000 seats). So if Derry ever do a Dundalk/Rovers and reach the last qualifying round before the Conference group stages (?), you'll presumably be on the road to Tallaght to fulfil the fixture. Either that or find somewhere to aqueeze another 3,000+ seats into the Brandywell ?

[Shinkicker]

I would guess it's the frequent/non-stop community usage on both pitches that is the issue, rather than underage teams training there a couple of times a week. Both pitches seem to be rented out/used by the community a lot, so presumably even if the underage teams weren't using it that slot would be rented to someone else instead anyway.

This puts a question mark over the whole model of cluhs installing artifical pitches to raise income by renting them out (and often securing capital grants to install them by portraying them as community hubs).
I wasn't sure if they allowed use by other community groups/clubs. Larne is a private pitch owned by the club, while Derry is council owned

[nigel-harps1954]

Very interesting, thanks.

With that new stand being terracing, the stadium wouldn't meet the requirements for UEFA Category 4 games (min 8,000 seats). So if Derry ever do a Dundalk/Rovers and reach the last qualifying round before the Conference group stages (?), you'll presumably be on the road to Tallaght to fulfil the fixture. Either that or find somewhere to aqueeze another 3,000+ seats into the Brandywell ?

You're never realistically going to fit 8,000 seats into the space available at the Brandywell without building a two tier stand anyway, and planning permission probably wouldn't allow for that.

[EatYerGreens]

No drawings yet, no.

If this has been put in for planning permission, then there will obviously have to be drawings as part of that.

[brendy_éire]

You're never realistically going to fit 8,000 seats into the space available at the Brandywell without building a two tier stand anyway, and planning permission probably wouldn't allow for that.

Behind the Showgrounds goal could be used, though it would be a squeeze alright.
With the change in UEFA regulations about the use of terracing, can a terrace count towards the 8k capacity, or is is specifically seats?

I think this talk is all premature, but if we were required to change our ground for a European match, I'd hoenstly like us to consider Windsor instead of Tallaght.

[brendy_éire]

If this has been put in for planning permission, then there will obviously have to be drawings as part of that.

Yeah, but it's just that they're not up on the planning portal yet. The application will have to be validated and the like before it'll be made public.

[EatYerGreens]

Behind the Showgrounds goal could be used, though it would be a squeeze alright.
With the change in UEFA regulations about the use of terracing, can a terrace count towards the 8k capacity, or is is specifically seats?

I think this talk is all premature, but if we were required to change our ground for a European match, I'd hoenstly like us to consider Windsor instead of Tallaght.

Windsor would be an interesting one :D I think it's much more difficult to use/nominate a ground that's outsde of your jurisdiction than it is one within. It's not impossible, and has obviously happened before (e.g. Shels played Rangers at Tranmere), but I think you need a good reason for it (which in Shes' case was security). The fact that other suitable stadia are available within the FAI's remit - and that we're not talking vast distances here - could well make it difficult to try to play in Windsor.

[outspoken]

Windsor would be an interesting one :D I think it's much more difficult to use/nominate a ground that's outsde of your jurisdiction than it is one within. It's not impossible, and has obviously happened before (e.g. Shels played Rangers at Tranmere), but I think you need a good reason for it (which in Shes' case was security). The fact that other suitable stadia are available within the FAI's remit - and that we're not talking vast distances here - could well make it difficult to try to play in Windsor.

Dundalk were looking at windsor during the crazy P6 era so it can be done.

[refjohn]

Planning Permission being submitted for 2900 capacity stand behind goal in Brandywell. Seems the area where away fans sit to be demolished as part of plan

https://www.derrystrabane.com/ryanmcbridebrandywellstadium


Will take capacity to 6,242

[EalingGreen]

I think this talk is all premature, but if we were required to change our ground for a European match, I'd hoenstly like us to consider Windsor instead of Tallaght.Even if WP was acceptable to both UEFA and DCFC, it might not be available on the match dates, since it could clash with Linfield's European games, and possibly Larne, should they request it.

[brendy_éire]

Planning Permission being submitted for 2900 capacity stand behind goal in Brandywell. Seems the area where away fans sit to be demolished as part of plan

https://www.derrystrabane.com/ryanmcbridebrandywellstadium


Will take capacity to 6,242

Application up on the Planning Portal now.

https://pp2niprsa.blob.core.windows.net/la11-2023-1667-f/f3722-ow1-zz-xx-dr-ar-sk11%20proposed%20north%20stand%20-%201-250%20copy.pdf?sv=2020-04-08&se=2023-05-25T19%3A52%3A03Z&sr=b&sp=r&sig=n4yxU%2FxPRVmCWfKfwPsF%2FwjSJK71gG9EMyTzSjtK%2 Fu4%3D

That shows the drawings of the new terrace. Also useful as a guide to where the planned Phase 2 of the Mark Darren stand will go, on either side of the existing stand.

[brendy_éire]

The Brandywell pitch has got it's approval from UEFA for the next year.

[EatYerGreens]

The Brandywell pitch has got it's approval from UEFA for the next year.

Presumably that means you'll be stuck with it for at least the 2024 season now then.

[brendy_éire]

Presumably that means you'll be stuck with it for at least the 2024 season now then.

Don't know. If we were going to replace it, the off-season is the only option, bar moving back to Maginn Park for a while.
Of course, that would involve moving Institute to somewhere else, which isn't ideal either, but easier to deal with, you'd imagine. They played in Limavady before.

[EatYerGreens]

Don't know. If we were going to replace it, the off-season is the only option, bar moving back to Maginn Park for a while.
Of course, that would involve moving Institute to somewhere else, which isn't ideal either, but easier to deal with, you'd imagine. They played in Limavady before.

Is your problem not more that the local city council don't want to and can't afford to change the pitch? So this gives them an excuse to leave it in-situ for at least another season?

[cláirseach]

There was a story in the local press last offseason about O'Doherty being willing to fund the changeover to grass.

[nigel-harps1954]

Any change over of grass would take longer than just the off season. You'd expect Derry would have to play half a season at Maginn again to be able to put a grass surface down in the Brandywell again.

[EatYerGreens]

There was a story in the local press last offseason about O'Doherty being willing to fund the changeover to grass.

I think it's also about how much money the council makes by renting out the pitch, as well as how much it would cost them to replace it. Would O'Doherty want the pitch changed that badly that he'd cover the lost annual income from grass as well?

[Nesta99]

If Derry were given permission and were willing to spend the premium they could roll out pregrown grass turf, it would bed in over the close season esecially a mild winter and definitely if appropriate artificial lighting is used. Surprisingly not as expensive as youd think but cost is relative of course. The ground works are done for the artificial surface so no digging out everything first. Top UK clubs can have multiple pitches laid in a season and down time is minimal. I cant remember which ground but one relaid pitch was a disaster, the sod lifting in chunks, because the roots didnt take properly due to the stadium casting a shadow or blocking sunlight...could have been Wembley, seeeee fancy stadia bring their own problems.

[redobit]

I think it's also about how much money the council makes by renting out the pitch, as well as how much it would cost them to replace it. Would O'Doherty want the pitch changed that badly that he'd cover the lost annual income from grass as well?

A Derry fan might clarify but if I remember right, when they upgraded the ground and changed the main pitch to astro they also upgraded the other Brandywell pitch to grass too.
If ODoherty changed the main pitch back to grass is there a chance the other brandywel pitch might need to be changed to astro too, in order to sustain the Council revenues in the future.

[cláirseach]

Yes, I believe that was the plan.

[EalingGreen]

If Derry were given permission and were willing to spend the premium they could roll out pregrown grass turf, it would bed in over the close season esecially a mild winter and definitely if appropriate artificial lighting is used. Surprisingly not as expensive as youd think but cost is relative of course. The ground works are done for the artificial surface so no digging out everything first. Top UK clubs can have multiple pitches laid in a season and down time is minimal. I cant remember which ground but one relaid pitch was a disaster, the sod lifting in chunks, because the roots didnt take properly due to the stadium casting a shadow or blocking sunlight...could have been Wembley, seeeee fancy stadia bring their own problems.Isn't your man Philip O'Doherty a billionaire? Would be loose change for him to install a grass pitch AND an astro one, like they have at Spurs:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9kDe1eOn64

(Video is 2 mins 29 secs long, but is NFL copyright, so you have to click on it to open their link)

[EalingGreen]

OK, if you're a fellow stadium nerd, and can stand that irritating little squirt Richard Hammond for 8 minutes, there's a better video here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsQZnyCH37M

[Shearer]

Any change over of grass would take longer than just the off season. You'd expect Derry would have to play half a season at Maginn again to be able to put a grass surface down in the Brandywell again.
Maginn, like Finn Park, should not be near the Premier Division and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

[EatYerGreens]

Maginn, like Finn Park, should not be near the Premier Division and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Anyone know what the latest is with Harps' new stadium?

[joey B]

Anyone know what the latest is with Harps' new stadium?

A good question! Very little information in the last while but from what I can gather it’s waiting on the government releasing funds,others with better information can correct me if I’m wrong though……

[nigel-harps1954]

If Derry were given permission and were willing to spend the premium they could roll out pregrown grass turf, it would bed in over the close season esecially a mild winter and definitely if appropriate artificial lighting is used. Surprisingly not as expensive as youd think but cost is relative of course. The ground works are done for the artificial surface so no digging out everything first. Top UK clubs can have multiple pitches laid in a season and down time is minimal. I cant remember which ground but one relaid pitch was a disaster, the sod lifting in chunks, because the roots didnt take properly due to the stadium casting a shadow or blocking sunlight...could have been Wembley, seeeee fancy stadia bring their own problems.

It would be a very different bed underneath the artificial pitch. It would also need to be changed, even for any prerolled turf. Still takes time to bed in, and the latest you'd want to be installing any turf pitch would be September, even with any sort of mild winter and heat lamps, you'd need the right ground conditions for it to take hold.

At other clubs, premier league or other big stadia, they already have the undersoil treatment in place for a quick turnaround. I'm not sure, with all the will in the world, that POD or Derry council are willing to fork out for under soil heating and all the added extra luxuries that come with those stadia.

If they were able to relay the pitch in September, there's a chance of having it ready for March again, but there's a lot of ground work to take place in between it all.

[nigel-harps1954]

A good question! Very little information in the last while but from what I can gather it’s waiting on the government releasing funds,others with better information can correct me if I’m wrong though……

Pretty much this, as far as I'm aware. It's really frustrating, as realistically the pitch needs to be started in the new stadium in the next month or two or we're going to lose another year.

[brendy_éire]

I think it's also about how much money the council makes by renting out the pitch, as well as how much it would cost them to replace it. Would O'Doherty want the pitch changed that badly that he'd cover the lost annual income from grass as well?

The pitch will have to be relaid at some point regardless. A plastic one can be done in a week or so. If the council wants a plastic one and the club wants a grass one, it would make sense to swap the Brandywell pitches over. Maybe O'Doherty may cover the extra costs associated with that?

No idea about timelines for putting grass back into the stadium pitch if the turf is pre-grown off-site, but it'd be at least six months to grow from scratch.

[Martinho II]

Isn't your man Philip O'Doherty a billionaire? Would be loose change for him to install a grass pitch AND an astro one, like they have at Spurs:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9kDe1eOn64

(Video is 2 mins 29 secs long, but is NFL copyright, so you have to click on it to open their link)

Yeah correct POD sold his business recently!

[nigel-harps1954]

Whisper it quietly until you see a builder on site.

https://donegalnews.com/2023/06/significant-progress-on-finn-harps-new-stadium/

[EatYerGreens]

Whisper it quietly until you see a builder on site.

https://donegalnews.com/2023/06/significant-progress-on-finn-harps-new-stadium/

Has anyone been on site recently to check if the existing concrete stand structure is still usable? Looking at the photo in that article, the top of the rebar steel frame within the concrete has been left exposed for years now. That exposed steel will have been expanding and contracting constantly due to the variable Donegal weather, with the risk being that water will have been able to get into the concrete below and around it as a result. That carries the risk of concrete cancer setting in and destroying the structure from the inside.

I'm sure they're on the case for this, but a structural surveyor would need to check it out before it's deemed fit for use/completion.

[nigel-harps1954]

Has anyone been on site recently to check if the existing concrete stand structure is still usable? Looking at the photo in that article, the top of the rebar steel frame within the concrete has been left exposed for years now. That exposed steel will have been expanding and contracting constantly due to the variable Donegal weather, with the risk being that water will have been able to get into the concrete below and around it as a result. That carries the risk of concrete cancer setting in and destroying the structure from the inside.

I'm sure they're on the case for this, but a structural surveyor would need to check it out before it's deemed fit for use/completion.

Last I heard it was all passed.

[EatYerGreens]

When does the new stand at Tallaght open? Have they confirmed what game will be the first to use it?

[Buller]

When does the new stand at Tallaght open? Have they confirmed what game will be the first to use it?

September. Delayed a few months, but just in time for the group stages. :cool:

[nr637]

Last I heard it was all passed.

Passed by you mean! :confused:

[passinginterest]

I see on the front page of the Tallaght Echo this week that the North Stand will be delayed "some weeks" due to supply chain issues. It did look like there was an awful lot still to do the last time I was passing. While the overall structure looks very complete the internal structures looked a good way off.

[outspoken]

I see on the front page of the Tallaght Echo this week that the North Stand will be delayed "some weeks" due to supply chain issues. It did look like there was an awful lot still to do the last time I was passing. While the overall structure looks very complete the internal structures looked a good way off.
Would have been a miracle if an Irish project was completed on time tbf