View Full Version : Cork City denied a licence; club to be wound up; FORAS to enter First Division
Mr_Parker
25/10/2009, 1:48 PM
Cork 'farce' leaves bitter taste among rival clubs
By SEN RYAN
Sunday October 25 2009
BARRING a calamitous collapse in their last two games, Cork City's players appear to have secured a place in next year's Europa League for the club, but not everybody in League of Ireland circles is happy with this development.
For Cork City to be in Europe next year, according to St Patrick's Athletic CEO Richard Sadlier, "would be absolutely farcical". And Sadlier is merely expressing a view which has general currency within the League.
As Bray Wanderers' official Eddie Cox put it: "Nobody wishes Cork City any harm, but there has been obvious mis-management, the FAI brought in rules and they don't appear to be abiding by them. The general consensus is that if it wasn't Cork, the FAI wouldn't be helping them to the extent they have been. I doubt very much that they would do the same for us."
In the past number of months, Cork City have been in the news for all the wrong reasons. A short list reveals:
* Twice they have, at the last minute, avoided winding-up orders in the High Court
* They have been repeatedly late in paying the players' wages
* Twice they have averted a players' strike within hours of having to forfeit matches
* Settlements to former staff dismissed by the present owners have not been paid
Every week, there seems to be another bad news story emanating from the Leeside club, but the low point was reached, according to Cox and Sadlier, when a photograph appeared in national newspapers of players in a car boot thumbing for a lift before their trip to play St Patrick's Athletic on September 25 last. The bus company hired to transport them refused to travel until a bank draft for monies owed had been secured.
"That set us back years in terms of credibility, not only with football people but also with those on the periphery who we are trying to interest in the League," said Sadlier. "Those stories are so, so damaging."
Despite this, the FAI appear to have gone out of their way to keep Cork City afloat, mindful, perhaps, that a winding-up order would result in the matches they played this season being expunged from the records and thus causing chaos.
This doesn't go down well with other clubs who have cut their cloth according to their measure, and find themselves at a disadvantage.
"We feel very aggrieved," said Cox. "The FAI brought in club licensing, we have abided by the regulations and Cork haven't, yet it would appear that the FAI have helped to bail them out and we think that is unfair.
"We cut our budget by 60 per cent to meet their requirements, and we send in monthly accounts, but if Cork City did the same -- as they are supposed to do -- how did they end up owing the Revenue €400,000?"
What bothers Sadlier is that, at the end of last season, the clubs had a frank discussion with FAI officials and were told there would be harsh penalties for clubs failing to adhere to the regulations.
"The feeling was that a line was drawn," he says, "and that they would come down heavily on those guilty of doing X, Y and Z. Yet Cork are being treated the same way as Bray and Sligo who have done everything right. The tough decisions we (at St Pat's) made at the start of the season were to avoid the situation that Cork find themselves in, and that made us less competitive.
"It's a repeat of last season. Then Pete Mahon felt that UCD didn't overspend and got relegated. Drogheda and Cork ran into trouble and weren't relegated. So what's the advantage of acting in a correct manner? If you run up a huge list of creditors you can't pay, what are the consequences? We felt the FAI would come down hard on anyone getting into that situation, but there is no evidence that is the case.
"I'd be disappointed if a club the size of Cork dropped a division or went out of business, but there is a responsibility on those who run the League to see that the clubs who abide by the rules are protected. It shouldn't be of benefit to clubs to operate an over-spending regime."
There have been suggestions that if Cork are not relegated for their misdemeanours, one of the clubs who go down might take the FAI to court, but Cox says it won't be Bray: "We haven't the money for a court case, so we are waiting to see what the FAI are going to do."
The Cork City saga is unlikely to have a happy ending, and Sadlier says: "I don't envy the FAI, as it's a difficult issue to address. I assume there is a lot going on behind the scenes, but there has been no communication from them."
To ensure the bad news is kept to a minimum next season, the FAI may have no option but to make an example of Cork City. If that means dropping down a division, going part-time or even amateur, as former manager Dave Barry suggested, then so be it. At least the FAI will have made their point.
- SEN RYAN
Sunday Independent.....
Good article,its not just the club officals who want action taken its many fans too.You feel sorry for Bray,Sligo,Dundalk,Pats amoung others who have kept to tight budgets.
A face
25/10/2009, 2:06 PM
If it wasn't two clubs that could possibly get the chop then i'd say something. I'm not saying they are wrong, its just it could be taken with a pinch of salt considering the two clubs involved.
Bray are gone, and this could definitely be seen as a last ditch attempt to stay up.
Bray stuck to rules which the clubs were told about at that meeting at the start of the season.They then took the FAI at their word that clubs would be punished and made sure their own house was in order to avoid any punishments.Cork clearly havent their house in order nor did they make any real attempt to(a mass cull of their squad etc) and are NOT being punished.Bray and other clubs have every right to be angry.
CSFShels
25/10/2009, 2:46 PM
Just to clarify, never mind Bohs hitting 65%, Cork must be miles away from it right?
tiktok
25/10/2009, 2:51 PM
If it wasn't two clubs that could possibly get the chop then i'd say something. I'm not saying they are wrong, its just it could be taken with a pinch of salt considering the two clubs involved.
Bray are gone, and this could definitely be seen as a last ditch attempt to stay up.
Pinch of salt my hole, they're absolutely spot on.
Ezeikial
25/10/2009, 2:54 PM
If it wasn't two clubs that could possibly get the chop then i'd say something. I'm not saying they are wrong, its just it could be taken with a pinch of salt considering the two clubs involved.
Bray are gone, and this could definitely be seen as a last ditch attempt to stay up.
You're way off beam here.
Of course the views of Bray and St Pats are highly relevant here, precisely because they "could possibly get the chop". Any club that has played by the rules and faces the ultimate penalty of relegation as a consequence of that (and others not complying) has every right to be mighty agrieved about the prospects of a FAI fudge.
It is also natural for the journalist to seek the views of those who potentially face relegation (in the circumstances Drogheda would probably not have a lot to say publically), but Bray, St Pats, Sligo, and Galway certainly would have every right to be asking the questions of the FAI.
Similarly Shamrock Rovers (league title) and to a lesser extend Dundalk (Europa qualification) all have a vested interest in the FAI living up to there stated intentions regarding sanctions and licensing.
But above all else there is the moral imperative - if the FAI fudge this they lose all credibility as a regulatory body
superfrank
25/10/2009, 3:09 PM
If it wasn't two clubs that could possibly get the chop then i'd say something. I'm not saying they are wrong, its just it could be taken with a pinch of salt considering the two clubs involved.
The thing is if Cork and Derry had cut their cloth to fit their measure, their squads wouldn't be as strong and it is conceivable that we (and Pats) would've got more points off them this season had they had weaker squads.
I'm not going to go on and on about it because Bray did something similar last year. We had to cut both the wages and the budget last season in September/October, after bringing in players in July and, arguably, strengthening the squad when we should have been trimming it as we couldn't afford it. In the end, we stayed up ahead of UCD even though they stuck to their budget. Had we been punished for overspending (be it a points deduction or a transfer embargo in July that year), we might've gone down instead of UCD.
Celdrog
25/10/2009, 3:35 PM
(in the circumstances Drogheda would probably not have a lot to say publicallyWhy???
Both clubs were in examinership last year. We both got a big points deduction.
Then one club continued to act the maggot, the other club took stock, learned the hard lessons, went part time, pared costs back to the bone and have done nothing wrong this season (like signing players in the summer and asking them to take a pay cut a few weeks later :rolleyes:).
Going by your logic, Shelbourne should keep quiet, and they suffered more than anyone, by dropping down a division and giving up European and Setanta football.
But above all else there is the moral imperative - if the FAI fudge this they lose all credibility as a regulatory body You are assuming they have some credibility.
if you pick through the licensing manual half the clubs should not have a licence, never mind a premier one, including us.
Portadown submitted their application an hour late last year and the IFA relegated them - that's maybe extreme but its also proper regulation.
Mr_Parker
25/10/2009, 4:07 PM
Portadown submitted their application an hour late last year and the IFA relegated them - that's maybe extreme but its also proper regulation.
For clarification. The IFA did not relegate them. The application Portadown submitted was not for their Domestic Licence but a one off application to join the new league. They were 29 minutes late with their application.
Ezeikial
25/10/2009, 4:18 PM
Why???
Perhaps I was incorrectly giving the Drogheda board credit for having the smarts to let other clubs do the complaining, while still getting the benefit of any impact of that pressure on the FAI. By complaining themselves about the FAI not enforcing proper sanctions, this could be seen by many as being extremely hypocritical (as you appear to recognise in relation to Drogheda being granted a license this season)
But if you are suggesting that Drogheda are not that astute, I'll take you at your word.
... the other club took stock, learned the hard lessons, went part time, pared costs back to the bone and have done nothing wrong this season (like signing players in the summer and asking them to take a pay cut a few weeks later :rolleyes:).
I guess this is a weak wumming attempt. In the unlikely event that it is not, you can get clarification on the specifics here -
http://blackandwhitetown.squarespace.com/home/2009/9/25/gerry-matthews-interview.html
tiktok
25/10/2009, 5:55 PM
Any chance you all could put your wee willies back in your pants and take the wee county wee-wee contest somewhere else?
Celdrog
25/10/2009, 6:02 PM
Any chance you all could put your wee willies back in your pants and take the wee county wee-wee contest somewhere else?You are right Tiktok - lets get back to the langer bashing:D
Do you think TNB should be sanctioned by the FAI and at what level?
You are right Tiktok - lets get back to the langer bashing:D
Do you think TNB should be sanctioned by the FAI and at what level?
Personally I think public execution would be fair but Id settle for them ensuring he does not run a club in the league next year.
tiktok
25/10/2009, 6:26 PM
You are right Tiktok - lets get back to the langer bashing:D
Do you think TNB should be sanctioned by the FAI and at what level?
Under no circumstances should he receive a licence, while I obviously want Cork City to stay in the premier I fully expect that we won't be, possibly the 65% rule will do it, but IMO there's a variety of ways the FAI could relegate us if they have the balls.
CSFShels
25/10/2009, 6:45 PM
Which we already know they don't. Its a win-win situation for the FAI, they know that the typical LOI fan already knows what they're like, and can do nothing. And they know the LOI outsiders remain blissfully ignorant about licensing, so they can really do what they want, and do.
Which we already know they don't. Its a win-win situation for the FAI, they know that the typical LOI fan already knows what they're like, and can do nothing. And they know the LOI outsiders remain blissfully ignorant about licensing, so they can really do what they want, and do.
True, but if they give Tom Coughlan a license next season ive no doubt there will be a widespread boycott of the club and the club wont reach the end of the season meaning theyl have a Dublin City-esque mess to clean up midseason.
They avoided that this season, just. Im sure they dont want that happening next year.
CSFShels
25/10/2009, 6:49 PM
True, but if they give Tom Coughlan a license next season ive no doubt there will be a widespread boycott of the club and the club wont reach the end of the season meaning theyl have a Dublin City-esque mess to clean up midseason.
They avoided that this season, just. Im sure they dont want that happening next year.
The club will be run by someone other than Coughlan next year, but will still be granted a Premier licence next year, which will be nothing short of a complete disgrace.
The club will be run by someone other than Coughlan next year, .
Can I ask what your basing this on?
A face
25/10/2009, 7:20 PM
Pinch of salt my hole, they're absolutely spot on.
They might be, but its not like i'm going to admit it am i ;):p
CSFShels
25/10/2009, 9:35 PM
Can I ask what your basing this on?
No evidence at all. I just can't see a situation where he is left in charge next year. And if he isn't I'm sure the FAI will be more than happy to give a FORAS led Cork a Premier Licence, and its just wrong, because this is 2 seasons in a row where theres no way they've been compliant with the 65% rule.
No evidence at all. I just can't see a situation where he is left in charge next year. And if he isn't I'm sure the FAI will be more than happy to give a FORAS led Cork a Premier Licence, and its just wrong, because this is 2 seasons in a row where theres no way they've been compliant with the 65% rule.
Unfortunately its a lot more complicated getting to the situation where thats even a possibility.
Coughlan wont leave without a payoff, the debts are growing on a constant basis and the club is ridiculously unsustainable. The leap from now to the same company being owned by FORAS for next season is just too big imo. We simply dont have enough money for that.
The only option where someone takes over this company io is an outsider coming in and taking over, possibly with FORAS involved in some form. But who would pay Coughlan what he's asking for to take on a shedload of debt? There were strong rumours that he turned down a 200k offer recently, Im surprised someone would even offer the langer that. Takeover rumours were very strong 2 weeks ago and have died off a little since so who knows really.
On the 65% thing, the only way that I can imagine we would comply with it is if Coughlan writes off the money he's claimed to put in. since he's asking for this money back though from anyone who wants to buy then I dont see how it can be counted for the cap so id imagine weve decimated it.
That said theres still a few wage bills to come, if he doesnt bother paying them do they count to teh 65%?
dcfcsteve
26/10/2009, 12:56 AM
Unfortunately its a lot more complicated getting to the situation where thats even a possibility.
Coughlan wont leave without a payoff, the debts are growing on a constant basis and the club is ridiculously unsustainable. The leap from now to the same company being owned by FORAS for next season is just too big imo. We simply dont have enough money for that.
The only option where someone takes over this company io is an outsider coming in and taking over, possibly with FORAS involved in some form. But who would pay Coughlan what he's asking for to take on a shedload of debt? There were strong rumours that he turned down a 200k offer recently, Im surprised someone would even offer the langer that. Takeover rumours were very strong 2 weeks ago and have died off a little since so who knows really.
On the 65% thing, the only way that I can imagine we would comply with it is if Coughlan writes off the money he's claimed to put in. since he's asking for this money back though from anyone who wants to buy then I dont see how it can be counted for the cap so id imagine weve decimated it.
That said theres still a few wage bills to come, if he doesnt bother paying them do they count to teh 65%?
The other option, of course, is to do a Limerick 37 : the FAI refuse Coughlan a license, and instead grant it to Foras-run Cork 84. The City players and staff, where desired, up sticks and join the new club. Coughlan is left with a financially fecked shell which he then has to put into administration. Foras then pick-up the Cork City name for a pittance from the Administrators, and switch back to City from Cork 84.
Bingo.
A face
26/10/2009, 7:14 AM
The other option, of course, is to do a Limerick 37 : the FAI refuse Coughlan a license, and instead grant it to Foras-run Cork 84. The City players and staff, where desired, up sticks and join the new club. Coughlan is left with a financially fecked shell which he then has to put into administration. Foras then pick-up the Cork City name for a pittance from the Administrators, and switch back to City from Cork 84.
Bingo.
Thats the scenario i was hoping for.
tiktok
26/10/2009, 7:41 AM
The other option, of course, is to do a Limerick 37 : the FAI refuse Coughlan a license, and instead grant it to Foras-run Cork 84. The City players and staff, where desired, up sticks and join the new club. Coughlan is left with a financially fecked shell which he then has to put into administration. Foras then pick-up the Cork City name for a pittance from the Administrators, and switch back to City from Cork 84.
Bingo.
Of course that club, at best, would be an A Championship club. Limerick just popped back in where they'd exited.
CSFShels
26/10/2009, 11:22 AM
Of course that club, at best, would be an A Championship club. Limerick just popped back in where they'd exited.
Well that was fair at the time because there was no A Championship sides or anyone looking to take the spot. This time around you'd have alot of unhappy First Division or relegated Premier Division sides, and I don't think Kildare County would be too pleased to give up their First Division place to Cork either.
dcfcsteve
26/10/2009, 11:58 AM
Of course that club, at best, would be an A Championship club. Limerick just popped back in where they'd exited.
Very true.
But what's the alternative ? No club at all ? Going pop mid-season ?
In the immortal words of the Carlsberg ads, "They're not great options".....
tiktok
26/10/2009, 3:04 PM
I've no problem with going down to the a championship, I'm just highlighting the facts before people get excited or outraged
rambler14
26/10/2009, 4:15 PM
I've no problem with going down to the a championship, I'm just highlighting the facts before people get excited or outraged
You should because it's the biggest sh!thouse of a league ever!
tiktok
26/10/2009, 4:31 PM
You should because it's the biggest sh!thouse of a league ever!
That might be the case this season, but with Cork City, Bohs and Derry there next season, It'll be the place to be!
dcfcsteve
26/10/2009, 5:17 PM
That might be the case this season, but with Cork City, Bohs and Derry there next season, It'll be the place to be!
Poor Shels might finally make it back into the big time next year - only to realise the big time's upped sticks and headed south in their absence.... :D
James
26/10/2009, 11:24 PM
Of course that club, at best, would be an A Championship club. Limerick just popped back in where they'd exited.
nothing wrong with that
we'd have our club back!
A face
26/10/2009, 11:28 PM
I can understand how Pats & Bray feel about us but I wonder if its a coincidence that both these clubs are in dire trouble so I take their comments with a pinch of salt. However what Ryan says in the article said is right on the ball, if it was any other club except Cork we would be dead all ready. Having said that you get punished only for what you do NOT what you nearly did. We weren't wound up so there is no punishment there, we did pay wages late so we should be punished for that along with our other discrepancies. Rovers did a knack a few years ago & they were docked 8 points which resulted in their relegation. They were not relegated for what they did,they were relegated because they didn't win enough points.
In all honesty we should be docked points as the way we have carried out our business this season is nothing short of a disgrace. However I think the FAI know that our problems are down to just one person so they may feel that to punish the club is not the way to deal with it. We should & will be docked points at the seasons end so therefore will not be in Europe next season which will be a good thing as we can't afford to go to Dublin let alone some far off distant country.
The FAI's way to deal with things will probably be to dock us points & refuse Coughlan a licence of any kind next season. However I have little faith in the way the FAI handles its business as their track record does not lend one to feel confident that they will get it right.
The League of Ireland in general is in a terrible state & if the FAI decide to punish every discrepancy there will be no Premier League next season as every club except Bray & Pats will be in the 1st Division. Maybe then Bray & Pats might actually win something. Also the idea of any relegated club taking us to court is just the journalist ****ing in the wind as its not going to happen.
This is a post from another forum, its in reply to an article and in bold above is a very good point. I know the buzzards are circling and most clubs would like to see us drop to the A but whatever punishment is given it has to be within realms of what is reasonable. People might be saying that they would like to see us dropped because the think we deserve it isn't good enough. We do deserve it, i'm not disputing that .... With TNB at the wheel we dont deserve to playing in the MSL in my opinion. But again, just because you aint happy with what is happening at city doesn't mean we should automatically be relegated.
Even though we do deserve it, i'll agree, and even though it should happen to improve the league overall, rewarding clubs who are doing it right, it still doesn't mean it will happen.
If i'm honest, City i think probably needs a year in the A Championship, to regroup and sort the whole mess out (hoping TNB id gone out of the picture)
Ezeikial
27/10/2009, 12:07 AM
I know the buzzards are circling and most clubs would like to see us drop to the A but whatever punishment is given it has to be within realms of what is reasonable. People might be saying that they would like to see us dropped because the think we deserve it isn't good enough. We do deserve it, i'm not disputing that .... With TNB at the wheel we dont deserve to playing in the MSL in my opinion
What do say that most clubs want Cork demoted to the A?
What evidence is there for that?- look again at what Richard Sadlier and Eddie Cox said.
You also recognise that being demoted to the A is deserved (so presumably within the realms of what is resonable):confused:
For Cork City to be in Europe next year, according to St Patrick's Athletic CEO Richard Sadlier, "would be absolutely farcical"..
As Bray Wanderers' official Eddie Cox put it: "Nobody wishes Cork City any harm, but there has been obvious mis-management, the FAI brought in rules and they don't appear to be abiding by them. "
fionnsci
27/10/2009, 7:40 AM
If i'm honest, City i think probably needs a year in the A Championship, to regroup and sort the whole mess out (hoping TNB id gone out of the picture)
But it's not just a year in the A Championship, it's three years at best out of the Premier Division.
gspain
27/10/2009, 7:53 AM
I don't know any football fans who want Cork out of football or down to the A championship.
I do know Pats (and most likely Bray and Drogheda) fans who feel they shouldn't be relegated because they followed the rules and you didn't.
I do think you should be docked points and not allowed into the Europa League. Ditto for Derry City.
For the record, its hardly just those clubs in relegation trouble who have been calling for the rules to be enforced.
In fact I'm fairly certain plenty of Cork fans have said that the FAI should follow the licensing rules a little closer
EalingGreen
27/10/2009, 11:35 AM
I do think you should be docked points and not allowed into the Europa League. Ditto for Derry City.But how many points? If you look at the Football League and Conference in England, the points deduction scale is so severe that it is often the same thing as relegation.
Which might seem draconian, but because it is clear-cut, no one can accuse them of "rigging" the points penalty so as to "save" some favoured clubs, but relegate other, less favoured clubs.
gspain
27/10/2009, 1:47 PM
But how many points? If you look at the Football League and Conference in England, the points deduction scale is so severe that it is often the same thing as relegation.
Which might seem draconian, but because it is clear-cut, no one can accuse them of "rigging" the points penalty so as to "save" some favoured clubs, but relegate other, less favoured clubs.
In the football league the penalties have varied from 10 points to up to 30 I believe.
Although this has meant no automatic promotion for Leeds there have been cases where it has had no real effect.
It is worse here though in that the possible deductions could happen after the season.
Even if no points deduction happens it is hard to see Cork (or indeed Derry) get a licence for next season in either the premier or first division. However they may not be the only ones.
WoodquayBoy
27/10/2009, 2:11 PM
I could be wrong, but I thought it was spelled out to clubvs at the start of the year what the penalties were, and in black and white as well - not just 'a points deduction' but from what I believe, clubs were told 'a xx points deduction'. Can anyone here clarify that? Were clubds told EXACTLY what punishments were in line for breach of licence terms?
pineapple stu
27/10/2009, 2:17 PM
There was something about a sliding scale of a points deduction for going into examinership. Along the lines of starting off with 10 points, and then an extra 3 points deducted if you paid off half your debts, going to an extra 20% if you paid none of your debts. Is that what you're thinking of?
WoodquayBoy
27/10/2009, 2:31 PM
Yeah, that was probably it, I recall ACTUAL points totals being mentioned before the start of the season, that must be them
brianw82
27/10/2009, 2:48 PM
There was something about a sliding scale of a points deduction for going into examinership. Along the lines of starting off with 10 points, and then an extra 3 points deducted if you paid off half your debts, going to an extra 20% if you paid none of your debts. Is that what you're thinking of?
No team has gone into examinership this season, though. Whereas messing around with players' wages is deemed acceptable by the FAI, so long as you've "reached an agreement" by the end of January. :rolleyes:
John83
27/10/2009, 3:04 PM
No team has gone into examinership this season, though. Whereas messing around with players' wages is deemed acceptable by the FAI, so long as you've "reached an agreement" by the end of January. :rolleyes:
Cork have been on the brink of liquidation. Their punishment, if indeed the FAI has the cojones to follow through, is going to be under the 65% wage cap. Ditto for the other clubs messing with wages. It certainly doesn't seem to be enough right now, whether because of enforcement of what.
1895ringsend
27/10/2009, 3:11 PM
Poor Shels might finally make it back into the big time next year - only to realise the big time's upped sticks and headed south in their absence.... :D
It'd be typical alright!!! :DWe're starting to feel a bit left out with all this talk of clubs going bust and not being able to pay their wages. That was our original party piece. These days bar the uncertaintly surrounding the ground we've become a boring well run club who pay their wages on time. Very unshels like;)
Schumi
27/10/2009, 4:06 PM
I don't know any football fans who want Cork out of football or down to the A championship.
I do think you should be docked points and not allowed into the Europa League. Ditto for Derry City.
That happened Cork last year and they're just as badly off again. I'd take no pleasure in Cork being denied a licence but action has to be taken eventually.
A face
27/10/2009, 5:55 PM
That happened Cork last year and they're just as badly off again. I'd take no pleasure in Cork being denied a licence but action has to be taken eventually.
But within in the rules.
Ezeikial
28/10/2009, 1:56 AM
I don't know what the league regulations state, if at all, about points deductions being a possible sanction for any possible irregularities at Cork.
But a 10 point deduction could mean absolutely nothing if this was applied to both Cork and Derry. League places unchanged, ditto European qualification, and ditto again as regards complaints from relegated teams.
Bohs however......now that would be an entirely different story
Is there a copy of the league rule book floating around anywhere? It could save a bit of conjecture!
Is there a copy of the league rule book floating around anywhere? It could save a bit of conjecture!
http://www.fai.ie/images/stories/pdf/FAI_Rule_Book_2009.pdf
See Rule 124 & 125
I love the directory 'stories' that they keep it in :D
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