Cork City denied a licence; club to be wound up; FORAS to enter First Division

[Ronnie]

Would not be an adiviasble thing to do. Need a clear break with the old, and be sure that no one can come after you for old stuff.

[razor]

its the exact same situation, fans have money for the club but wont hand it over, cause they built a demoracy and now dont like the person that they voted in and accepted, What rubbish?
The Examiner appointed Coughlan, nobody voted him in or accepted him.

[Ezeikial]

When Arkaga bailed out the damage was done, the debts were so large that saving the club was beyond the means of fans.

AFAIK your own club isn't members owned or controlled so there's nothing to stop the same thing happening in Dundalk.

The implication here is that a member-owned club is a guarantee of sensible and prudent financial management- clearly not, as the current Bohs debacle illustrates.



There has to be an earlier warning system put in place. This notion of penalties only applying if you're over 65% at the year's end isn't enough. Coughlan not meeting his repayment requirements to Revenue should have been the signal for the FAI to get involved, be it with a transfer embargo or a points deduction or something. It's been shown time and again (Dublin City, Drogheda, Shels, Bohs, Cork) that licencing doesn't work as a deterrent or as a detector, and I think the FAI need to take their share of the blame there (obviously Coughlan has to take most of the blame).

Echo most of what's been said about Cork fans thus far, including mocking don ramo.


It must be crystal clear at this stage that the "rope is too long", and while the 65% rule is a step in the right direction it is insufficient in itself. Apart from unequivocal implementation of the sanctions for breaching this rule, the FAI need to introduce further "early warning" measures with appropriate penalaties for clubs - defaulting on Revenue payments is a consistent indicator of impending financial implosion. Ultimately the mindset of those running clubs needs to change, but all the available evidence is that this will not happen without stringent regulation by the governing body.

[OneRedArmy]

The implication here is that a member-owned club is a guarantee of sensible and prudent financial management- clearly not, as the current Bohs debacle illustrates. No, that's your implication.

What being a members owned club does it take away the opportunity that one person, or a small number of people, can do something stupid.

It doesn't solve all ills, but it's the best form of organisation for fans, as proved all around the world.

[Ronnie]

It must be crystal clear at this stage that the "rope is too long", and while the 65% rule is a step in the right direction it is insufficient in itself. Apart from unequivocal implementation of the sanctions for breaching this rule, the FAI need to introduce further "early warning" measures with appropriate penalaties for clubs - defaulting on Revenue payments is a consistent indicator of impending financial implosion. Ultimately the mindset of those running clubs needs to change, but all the available evidence is that this will not happen without stringent regulation by the governing body.[/QUOTE]

But is the Cork scenario not the ultimate test. I'm no great fan of the process, but the clubs were against the 65%, esp the big ones (or that seasons big ones, Drogs, Shels, Cork, as it was restrictive!!!!.)
We have had clubs relegated, Shels, deducted points, Drogs, Rovers, Longford, Cork. In all those case, bar Cork, the lessons seemed to have been learned. Looks like the next to be punished will be Bohs and remains to be seen whther they will learn or not. The lesson? In our league paying wages of 2million a year is nuts!

[sheao]

Absolutly gutted that it has come to this,but you could see it happening as to be honest we were like a financial time bomb waiting to explode over the last year and yesterday's news left my hartbroken last night. Life without this club for me is unthinkable

[pineapple stu]

I don't really agree with that. There has to be an earlier warning system put in place. This notion of penalties only applying if you're over 65% at the year's end isn't enough.
Actually, isn't there a bit in the licence agreement that states a club has to be solvent (defined here as having more assets than liabilities) to get a licence? There's several clubs this clearly doesn't apply to. So the FAI are flouting their own rules in this regard.

[Ezeikial]

AFAIK your own club isn't members owned or controlled so there's nothing to stop the same thing happening in Dundalk.



[QUOTE=Ezeikial;1200556]The implication here is that a member-owned club is a guarantee of sensible and prudent financial management- clearly not, as the current Bohs debacle illustrates.
QUOTE]


No, that's your implication.



It seems to me a reasonable interpretation of your original statement - if you mean something different, please clarify.



What being a members owned club does it take away the opportunity that one person, or a small number of people, can do something stupid.


But it also opens up the possibility that a large number of people, led by a few, can also do something stupid. You don't need to search hard for the current evidence of this.




It doesn't solve all ills, but it's the best form of organisation for fans, as proved all around the world.

It's understandable that you would be in favour of a members-owned solution, given recent history at Cork City. A new FORAS-owned club, is probably the best (maybe the only) road forward for Cork, and I fervently wish that this succeeds - I hope that other Cork City supporters are also mindfull of your point that it doesn't solve all ills.

[pineapple stu]

if you mean something different, please clarify.
In fairness, I think his post already clarified for you, and comes to the same conclusions you did, more or less.

[adamd164]

With the revenue now only accepting the full amount or nothing by Friday, it really is the end of any hope that might have lingered there. Club will fold.

[blue til i die]

Terrible news, but dont see how they can come up with that money now.

I know some of our fans dont seem to care, but because of the crap we took from cork the last time we were in trouble.

Personally, i loved the matches we played against them, munster derby's were always the best. Good club with a good support!

Sympathy to all the Cork City fans though, and all the players and staff who will lose their jobs. Sad times!

[Real ale Madrid]

With the revenue now only accepting the full amount or nothing by Friday, it really is the end of any hope that might have lingered there. Club will fold.

When did this come about? The requirement of the full amount by Friday?

[micls]

When did this come about? The requirement of the full amount by Friday?

Today, after they met tom. He confirmed it on 96fm.

[Real ale Madrid]

Today, after they met tom. He confirmed it on 96fm.

Well then thats certainly the final nail in the coffin.

Lets hope FORAS can save the club name and lets start again next year.

[adamd164]

Talking about it on Liveline now.

[passerrby]

firstly i have the utmost sympthy for all conected with CCFC however Cork city have been on a roller coaster of a ride for a number of years that could only end in tears, and should now serve as an example to all clubs on how not to do buisness (but alas this lesson will not be learned)
As somebody who supports a small club that has been sneared at because of its size and "because it is holding back the league" and while i personally feel sad at the demise of a LOI club i cannot help but feel a certain amount of contentment. (maybe not the right word)
finnally don you are wrong on so many levels foras should stand back and let the ship sink then try and save as many souls as possible before launching a new vessal

[don ramo]

What rubbish?
The Examiner appointed Coughlan, nobody voted him in or accepted him.

fair enought not voted, but i know a good few city fans, who were delighted when couglan arrived to save the club, everyone in cobh knew he was a pure chancer, hes well known and it was said, and the city fans defended him for the first 2 months, untill they saw who this guy was, moving the club shop to his building in the city center and moving the clubs offices to his hotel in cobh, and chargeing rent, hes probably a creditor of CCFC,

i believe from what ive heard that couglan actually has money and is capable of saving the club, but refurses to invest hes personal wealth, i dont understand this logic, why buy a club you dont want to invest in,

[steno]

It was a cork city fan (who sometimes posts on here as well) that got me into irish domestic soccer when I was in college down there, so for me personally this is a very sad and dark day in domestic irish soccer history.
I found the Cork City supporters a great bunch and I enjoyed the atmosphere and being in the old shed. The league needs a team from Cork, the interest is clearly there so heres hoping that there will be some involvement in the league from there. The supporters, players and management are the real loosers here i feel particularly the supporters.

[OneRedArmy]

[QUOTE]




It seems to me a reasonable interpretation of your original statement - if you mean something different, please clarify.



But it also opens up the possibility that a large number of people, led by a few, can also do something stupid. You don't need to search hard for the current evidence of this.




It's understandable that you would be in favour of a members-owned solution, given recent history at Cork City. A new FORAS-owned club, is probably the best (maybe the only) road forward for Cork, and I fervently wish that this succeeds - I hope that other Cork City supporters are also mindfull of your point that it doesn't solve all ills.I'm not a Cork fan :confused: but yes, I'm strongly in favour of member-owned clubs.

Your Bohs example is valid but not entirely representative.

[don ramo]

[QUOTE=Ezeikial;1200711]I'm not a Cork fan :confused: but yes, I'm strongly in favour of member-owned clubs.

Your Bohs example is valid but not entirely representative.

rovers would be the club to contact about that,
member clubs can be great or they can be a disaster,
personally i havent seen anything from FORAS in anyway that would say they could run a club, and if they do they should just start from scratch,

forget CCFC,
forget the crest,
foregt the players
and forget contract for the cross,

start a new club with a new name FC of Cork seems like a grand name, or Cork Rangers, design a new crest cause that one is god awful, and then go to the MFA and negotiate a better deal to play in the cross,

i think the funny thing is that a new club would most likely ascend the league rather quickly, and be back in the premier league in less than 5 years, but when it got to the top they would just GO FOR IT again,

[razor]

fair enought not voted, but i know a good few city fans, who were delighted when couglan arrived to save the club, everyone in cobh knew he was a pure chancer, hes well known and it was said, and the city fans defended him for the first 2 months, untill they saw who this guy was, moving the club shop to his building in the city center and moving the clubs offices to his hotel in cobh, and chargeing rent, hes probably a creditor of CCFC,

i believe from what ive heard that couglan actually has money and is capable of saving the club, but refurses to invest hes personal wealth, i dont understand this logic, why buy a club you dont want to invest in,

Everyone in Cork had heard all the stories about Tom also but what choice did we have? It was Kieran McCarthys call, thanks Kieran.
Tom may well have the money, personally I don't believe that Tom has put one red cent into the club but thats just my opinion.

[don ramo]

Everyone in Cork had heard all the stories about Tom also but what choice did we have? It was Kieran McCarthys call, thanks Kieran.
Tom may well have the money, personally I don't believe that Tom has put one red cent into the club but thats just my opinion.

i thought FORAS worked with the examiner as a sort of official entity to represent the clubs interests, and i thought they released a statement sayin they were satisfied the right man had taken over the club,

am i wrong or is this true

[Ezeikial]

[QUOTE=OneRedArmy;1200975
Your Bohs example is valid but not entirely representative.
[/QUOTE]

Not representative of what?

There are examples of member-owned clubs being run badly, and privately owned clubs being run well, and similarly vice versa.

While you favour member clubs, it does appear that we are both in agreement that the member-owned model is not automatically a panacea. The recent progress of Shamrock Rovers indicates what is possible, but equally Bohemains remain as the stand-out illustration of how a membership can be hoodwinked or deluded into colluding with financial recklessness.

The club being embedded in the community, and the community being embedded in the club, can occur in either scenario.

[Mr A]

I think the point is that with a fan owned club the fans can at least call a halt even in some cases quite belatedly. This seems to be beginning at Bohs.

With clubs in the hands of one person they can do whatever they like no matter what the community or supporters feel about it, like with CCFC, where everyone could see it was a train-wreck in the making but TC was the only hand on the tiller.

[Martinho II]

I think the point is that with a fan owned club the fans can at least call a halt even in some cases quite belatedly. This seems to be beginning at Bohs.

With clubs in the hands of one person they can do whatever they like no matter what the community or supporters feel about it, like with CCFC, where everyone could see it was a train-wreck in the making but TC was the only hand on the tiller.

I know last year with the talk about Roddy Collins investing in us with his cronies this was strongly opposed by our supporters club and trust.. so it shows that fan power does work as people would have withdrawn their subscriptions to the trust if Roddie was allowed near our club..

[The Lep]

I remember some Cork city fans laughing on here at Dublin city folding .
What goes around eh.

[dcfcsteve]

Actually, isn't there a bit in the licence agreement that states a club has to be solvent (defined here as having more assets than liabilities) to get a licence? There's several clubs this clearly doesn't apply to. So the FAI are flouting their own rules in this regard.

But there's a difference between getting a license and keeping one.

I'm not aware of any mechanism whereby a license can be removed mid-way through its valid period (i.e. the season). So you could meet the criteria, get your license, and then fall into a situation where you no longer match the criteria but still continue to the end of your license/the season.

[OneRedArmy]

Not representative of what?

There are examples of member-owned clubs being run badly, and privately owned clubs being run well, and similarly vice versa.

While you favour member clubs, it does appear that we are both in agreement that the member-owned model is not automatically a panacea. The recent progress of Shamrock Rovers indicates what is possible, but equally Bohemains remain as the stand-out illustration of how a membership can be hoodwinked or deluded into colluding with financial recklessness.

The club being embedded in the community, and the community being embedded in the club, can occur in either scenario.Maybe I need to be a bit clearer. For every member controlled club you can name thats gone to the wall, I'll name 5 traditional owner-shareholder clubs that have done the same.

The history of the League is littered with Tom Coughlan's who for various reasons ran clubs into the ground.

I'm not aware that's the case with member owned clubs.

As for why thats the case, transparent democracy generally tends to give oxygen to potential problems earlier.

[Mr A]

Slightly strange statement from the FAI (as if they would or should get involved in helping in such a situation): http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/2009/0728/1224251572071.html

[TheBoss]

This would be the 2nd time that a Cork City FC will be wound up, the last time in the 1939/40 season, they were wound up and replaced immediately by a new club, Cork United FC which took on City's results at that point.

[Raheny Red]

I remember some Cork city fans laughing on here at Dublin city folding .
What goes around eh.

That's why I'm so happy over Cork folding. They'll be careful next time surely ;)

[harry crumb]

That's why I'm so happy over Cork folding. They'll be careful next time surely ;)

Sad attitude.

The vasy majority of Cork City supporters are decent sporting fans.

Don't understand how any right minded LOI supporter could take satisfation in the loss of an important club like Cork City.

The demise of Cork City is on a totally different scale to Dublin City. We have a history and a generation that has grown up with the club. Dublin City was still in its infancy.:(

James has posted a great post on the City seciton http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=121601

[tiktok]

i thought FORAS worked with the examiner as a sort of official entity to represent the clubs interests, and i thought they released a statement sayin they were satisfied the right man had taken over the club,

am i wrong or is this true

You're wrong [no surprise there though].

[don ramo]

You're wrong [no surprise there though].

wow so your supporting an organisaition that has actually contributed NOTING to your club, you club that is now gone,

if they didnt help out during the examinership process (probably the biggest issue in CCFCs History), and they gave no support what to speak of to the club, exactly WTF do they do,

[Philly]

wow so your supporting an organisaition that has actually contributed NOTING to your club, you club that is now gone,

if they didnt help out during the examinership process (probably the biggest issue in CCFCs History), and they gave no support what to speak of to the club, exactly WTF do they do,

Your comment would have some grounding if it wasn't blatantly clear FORAS has never had a proper opportunity to actually help out. Whilst their €80000 or so they have to give might well be alot to most clubs, it's a small portion of what is needed to get the club out of the hole it is in at the moment. They could sent it to Mr Coughlan today, and the club would very likely still be history come Friday. On the other hand, they could be smart and save it to form a fan-owned A League team next season.

Anyway, hearing a Cobh fan slag off other clubs for their supporters input is a bit much considering the mess you guys let yourselves to get into.

[adamd164]

Tom Coughlan has thrown in the towel.

Today's Examiner:

"We’re in a very difficult environment as regards sponsorship. We’re doing the best we can. But we’re up against it, I’m not so sure we’ll get there at this stage to be honest."

"It’s very challenging," he admitted. "I see it as something that the community needs. Maybe I’m alone in thinking that and maybe I have to question that. There are some fantastic sporting organisations out there and maybe there isn’t room for the League of Ireland. It’s a tough learning curve but I don’t have any regrets.

"We’re doing our damndest but our damndest may not be enough. There aren’t a lot of deep pockets out there. People are in their own jams and that’s perfectly understandable. It’s going to be very difficult."

[SeanDrog]

Tom Coughlan has thrown in the towel.

Today's Examiner:

he appears completely out of touch and taking zero blame. Cork came out of examinership and should have taken a step back so to speak to steady the ship etc etc but instead he ploughed on and drove up costs - Cork are were hey are simply because of his management.

Crazy stuff from him - it looks like he actually beleives his own rubbish ..... :confused:

[redobit]

Obviously every Cork fans heart is hoping they can survive. But, is there any Cork fans who in their head is saying: A-league, supporter run, supporter owned; maybe this is the best way for the long term future of LOI in Cork?

[razor]

Obviously every Cork fans heart is hoping they can survive. But, is there any Cork fans who in their head is saying: A-league, supporter run, supporter owned; maybe this is the best way for the long term future of LOI in Cork?Most of us are.
We all want to see the club survive but no one in their right mind is going to hand over money with Coughlan still at the helm.

[Magicme]

We have a history

History doesnt pay the taxman. Time clubs realised that past glories are just that - past. The future is where its at.

Am totally gutted for Cork and their fans.

[tiktok]

wow so your supporting an organisaition that has actually contributed NOTING to your club, you club that is now gone,

if they didnt help out during the examinership process (probably the biggest issue in CCFCs History), and they gave no support what to speak of to the club, exactly WTF do they do,

You were wrong in your original assertion, you're just highlighting your ignorance of what the trust is in your one quoted above. You know nothing about the ins and outs of the trust and it's relationship with the club, you're making ridiculous comments and having swipes through a number of threads now [i assume it's because you're from Cobh and i someway connected to a certain indiviudal].

FORAS were heavily involved in the examinership process, but were not speaking for the club[which is what you stated and were wrong about], FORAS did a lot more than help out. The examiner has publicly stated that FORAS were key to a successful outcome, with the presiding judge highlighting the contribution.

FORAS welcomed the emergence from examinership and offered the new owner support, but didn't realease a statement saying he was 'the right man for the job' [which is what you stated and were wrong about].

FORAS have saved the club literally tens of thousands of euro this season getting nothing back in return [nor asking for anything back in return bar the opportunity to help even more]. FORAS have given money over to the club in sponsorhip, and this week are paying for the printing of the programme for the Bray game because no print company in Cork will touch the club right now.

If you'd like to learn more and actually hear what a group of volunteers have given up the past year of their lives doing, feel free to pop along to the public meeting in the Telecom Club in Cork tonight, 7.30pm.

[White Horse]

he appears completely out of touch and taking zero blame. Cork came out of examinership and should have taken a step back so to speak to steady the ship etc etc but instead he ploughed on and drove up costs - Cork are were hey are simply because of his management.

Crazy stuff from him - it looks like he actually beleives his own rubbish ..... :confused:

Drogheda took a wiser course. They may still be relegated but the club survives. That is the important thing.

Dundalk have shown that rebuilding in the first division is possible.

Cork City FC were greedy and inflated the expectations of their supporters.

[Steve Bruce]

It's bad for the supporters as it is all out of their control. But Cork as a club, the people who run it, they are getting what they deserved. In the last couple of seasons it has been evident they where in big trouble. But instead of cutting back completely and restarting with a sustainable model, they continued to spend spend spend.

Cork City have no one to blame but themselves. I'm not gloating as it's not something to gloat about, but Cork City needed to tighten their belts and they didn't and didn't even attempt to. They got what they deserved.

The rest of the LOI and to a far lesser extent the Irish League need to take note of CCFCs plight and learn from their mistakes. It is not hard to set out a budget that is affordable and sticking to it. A budget that is flexible as in, income is 20% less than projected, the budget should be able to handle that.

It seems people are exceeding what they can afford, or they are budgeting at the very limit of projected income and when that projected income is slightly less, they are in trouble.

[eamo1]

Can someone explain something to me please.
Why were Cork included in the Setanta Cup Draw??
Why is their game on Friday still down to go ahead??
Why is there no mention of all this on the LOI website??
Answers appreciated.

[Dodge]

Can someone explain something to me please.
Why were Cork included in the Setanta Cup Draw??
Why is their game on Friday still down to go ahead??
Why is there no mention of all this on the LOI website??
Answers appreciated.

Because they still exist.

They can't be excluded from anything until they go kaput. There was a statement on the LOI website but until things are finalised, they can't make any announcements on what "may" happen

[Conroy]

Bonuse's of €1000 per goal and €500 a clean sheet under the guildance of arkraga.

[Duggie]

Bonuse's of €1000 per goal and €500 a clean sheet under the guildance of arkraga.

seen this, wow a grand for a goal. that was serious money. wouldnt ya bust a gut to score if that was up for grabs.

[Ezeikial]

seen this, wow a grand for a goal. that was serious money. wouldnt ya bust a gut to score if that was up for grabs.

Maybe you wouldn't be too eager to pass to a better placed colleague?

[Duggie]

Maybe you wouldn't be too eager to pass to a better placed colleague?

true :D
id shoot from all angles.

[don ramo]

i thought FORAS worked with the examiner as a sort of official entity to represent the clubs interests, and i thought they released a statement sayin they were satisfied the right man had taken over the club,

am i wrong or is this true


You're wrong [no surprise there though].


You were wrong in your original assertion, you're just highlighting your ignorance of what the trust is in your one quoted above. You know nothing about the ins and outs of the trust and it's relationship with the club, you're making ridiculous comments and having swipes through a number of threads now [i assume it's because you're from Cobh and i someway connected to a certain indiviudal].

FORAS were heavily involved in the examinership process, but were not speaking for the club[which is what you stated and were wrong about], FORAS did a lot more than help out. The examiner has publicly stated that FORAS were key to a successful outcome, with the presiding judge highlighting the contribution.

FORAS welcomed the emergence from examinership and offered the new owner support, but didn't realease a statement saying he was 'the right man for the job' [which is what you stated and were wrong about].

FORAS have saved the club literally tens of thousands of euro this season getting nothing back in return [nor asking for anything back in return bar the opportunity to help even more]. FORAS have given money over to the club in sponsorhip, and this week are paying for the printing of the programme for the Bray game because no print company in Cork will touch the club right now.

If you'd like to learn more and actually hear what a group of volunteers have given up the past year of their lives doing, feel free to pop along to the public meeting in the Telecom Club in Cork tonight, 7.30pm.

so i asked did FORAS help during the examinership proscess, you said NO,

so what did they say to couglan "best of luck tom, but just to let ya know we dont think your the right man for the job"

im not connected to cork city in anyway, ive friends who support city, and even they seem at a loss to what exactly FORAS do,

you say theyve saved the clubs thousands, asking noting in return, there a Supporters Club, wouldnt be a very good SC if they asked for there money back,

thats fair enough that they sponsor the team and are printing programs,
see i didnt know that, and you bit my head of explaining it, is that how your gonna convince fans to follow a new club if FORAS form one,

im happy and sad, because i know there were fans who did there best to help, but at the same time you cant expect the club to survive when its being run the way it is, and i feel sorry for the fans cause they have no control over it,

we were lucky enough to keep our club and its history intact, so im fairly happy down here, and if ye do form a new team next year ill look forward to playing ye,