Robbie Keane

[cavan_fan]

Don't agree with dropping Robbie obviously but thought this was a good article from the Irish Times.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Record haul hides hard fact

Emmet Malone takes a look at Robbie Keane's scoring feats for the Republic of Ireland

Andy Reid's post-match assertion that Robbie Keane's hat-trick against San Marino on Wednesday represented "two fingers to the knockers" might well be viewed as an admirable display of loyalty by a team member to his captain, but the fact remains the Tottenham striker has a good deal more to do if he is to silence his critics.

Keane's goals brought his international tally to 29 in 70 games, an Irish record and a highly respectable ratio. However, the figures hide the fact the 26-year-old has consistently struggled to find the net in the Republic's biggest games since the World Cup finals in Japan and South Korea, where he scored three times in four appearances and appeared to promise a huge amount for the future.

Since then, the Dubliner has scored 16 times in 33 appearances for Ireland with nine coming in 19 competitive games. Just as the Irish team has failed to beat a team of note in a competitive game since September 2001, however, so Keane has failed to score against a team of real quality in a game where there was anything at stake since his spot-kick in Suwon against Spain.

In 788 minutes of football over nine games against Russia, Switzerland, France, Germany and the Czech Republic, the striker has failed to find the net once. His only goal, in fact, against a team that turned out to be a serious group rival of Ireland's came in the home game against Israel.

He limped out of that game after 25 minutes having started brightly. But he failed to make the hoped for impact when the two sides met in Tel Aviv and, even if the games against the Israelis are included in his post-2002 World Cup statistics, he has found the net just once in over 10 hours of competitive football against Ireland's stronger opponents.

In contrast, Keane thrives against good teams in friendly games and weak teams in competitive matches. When there have been no qualifying points at stake he has found the net against the likes of the Netherlands, the Czech Republic and Croatia.

And at first glance his overall competitive record looks impressive too - it actually amounts, at 19 goals in 39 games, to a significantly better strike rate than he achieved in non-competitive games. This is rather easily explained on the basis the FAI don't look to play friendly games against the likes of Albania, San Marino or the Faroe Islands.

These are, as it happens, precisely the sort of nations against which the Irish skipper has racked up the competitive goals. In the Euro 2004 campaign he managed two goals in six appearances - one each against Albania and Georgia.

Next time around it was four (two of them penalties) in nine with one coming against Cyprus, two against the Faroes and that early effort against Israel accounting for the fourth.

This time around he has been contained by the Germans, Cypriots and Czechs before finding his scoring touch against the part-timers who came to town on Wednesday and bringing his tally for the current campaign to an ostensibly impressive three in four games.

That he bagged his first international hat-trick on home turf is no great surprise either for, excluding the World Cup finals which were, obviously enough, played in neutral countries, Keane has only ever scored two competitive goals away from home - one against Malta in September 1999 and one in the 2-2 draw with the Netherlands in Amsterdam 12 months later.

Indeed, since those World Cup finals he has run up some 878 minutes of competitive football on foreign soil without scoring a single goal.

On Tuesday he heaped generous praise on young Reading striker Kevin Doyle who, as it would turn out, was to score his first international goal against the Sammarinese. Keane said at a press conference that while Doyle likes to play just off the central defenders he prefers to occupy a deeper role in the hope of "making things happen".

Against the better sides, however, it is far from clear how much he really does make happen even when he contributes in other ways. The reality is that unless Doyle matches even the most extravagant of expectations in the very near future, Steve Staunton must find a way of generating a better return from Keane's undoubted talents.

At Spurs, he looks at times to have the potential to be a top-class out-and-out striker but he rarely gets, or avails of, the opportunity to play that role for any sustained period of time. For Ireland he will, of course, continue to merit his inclusion in whatever way he is deployed because there are no real alternatives but the fact he has scored not far short of half the Republic's goals since the summer of 2002 shouldn't be allowed to obscure the simple fact that neither Keane nor his international team-mates find the net nearly often enough against quality opposition in matches that matter.

Unless that changes, Staunton's hopes of sparking a revival of the team's fortunes during the remaining three years of his contract will amount to little more than wishful thinking.

[NeilMcD]

Good article but the bit about playing out and out striker for Spurs is rubbish. He plays just behind Berbatov and sometimes on the left wing and if spurs are chasing the game he plays as an attacking midfielder. The amount of times he plays as an out and out stirker for spurs is minimal.

[eirebhoy]

Here's the goals scored by top scorer at the world cup:
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/klose-intlg.html

and Keane's:
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/robkeane-intlg.html

I can't say Klose has done too much better. Keane has yet to have an ideal partner since Quinn and he's probably more of an old fashioned no.10 than a centre forward.

[Jerry The Saint]

Good article but the bit about playing out and out striker for Spurs is rubbish. He plays just behind Berbatov and sometimes on the left wing and if spurs are chasing the game he plays as an attacking midfielder. The amount of times he plays as an out and out stirker for spurs is minimal.

To be fair he does say that.


At Spurs, he looks at times to have the potential to be a top-class out-and-out striker but he rarely gets, or avails of, the opportunity to play that role for any sustained period of time.

The problem is that Ireland rely on him to be an out-and-out goalscorer and can't afford to have him playing the Spurs type role. At least there looks to be a settled partnership with Doyle now, but we'll have to wait and see how that develops.

[wws]

On Tuesday he heaped generous praise on young Reading striker Kevin Doyle who, as it would turn out, was to score his first international goal against the Sammarinese. Keane said at a press conference that while Doyle likes to play just off the central defenders he prefers to occupy a deeper role in the hope of "making things happen".


so thats what they're called. informative

[cavan_fan]

Robbie came on in the 80th minute tonight and scored in the 83rd to give Spurs a win. Could this kick start his season??

[eirebhoy]

Good goal too. Spurs had a freekick about 25 yards out which was passed short to Keane when Boro weren't expecting it. He took one or 2 steps and blasted it into the bottom corner.

/Edit - here it is:
http://www.badongo.com/file/1826013

My description was quite a bit off. :D Much further out then I thought.

[Peadar]

Could this kick start his season??

No, Spurs were at home and 'boro are rubbish!

[NeilMcD]

He went off injured just after it too. Getting a scan today on it. Hopefully not too serious as its a knee injury.

[tricky_colour]

The defence were caught napping somewhat, several players strolling back with their backs to the ball when the kick was taken, good strike though.

[Kevin77]

I am totally sick of people posting on these type of sites comments along the lines of ‘Get rid of Robbie Keane’ or ‘Drop Robbie Keane’. I’ve thought about it quite a bit and I really can’t understand it at all.

If Ireland were blessed with Henry, Van Nistlerooy and Drogba as our alternatives over the past 6/7 years then I could understand the hysteria. But the alternatives to date are not even close to that class.

If we look at the players competing for two positions up front over the duration of Keane’s international career I doubt that many neutrals would argue that Keane is at least not in the top two in total or even the number one striker for the entire period. The players are (in no particular order) – Niall Quinn, Richard Sadlier, Keith O’Neill, David Connolly, Clinton Morrison, Kevin Doyle, Stephen Elliott, Alan Lee and most recently Anthony Stokes.

His record alone should be enough, however this is often held against him. The arguments tend to gravitate around the allegation that he either doesn’t score against the big teams or scores the vast majority of his goals against minnows. Now even if this argument does hold sway (I’m not sure it does – anyone), he still is significantly in front of the other best strikers in the history of Irish football (Quinn, Givens, Stapleton etc) in terms of return and also has at least 5 or six years left in him at international level.

Is it that people just enjoy knocking winners or picking on the big name players?

To me, Kevin Doyle is the first genuine striker to come through and perform consistently in the Premier League of recent years that could challenge Keane’s position as number one Irish striker. Even so, this still doesn’t mean Keane should be discarded as we generally play two strikers. So at worst Keane is striker number two.

Stokes is on the way. But he just represents potential at the moment. As does Elliott at Sunderland (personally I think that once he gets a decent run in the team again, he will do well). Morrison is slipping down the order. Lee is never really going to get there (except with the old school ‘gotta play a big man up front (regardless of class)’ brigade). There are some other bright spots (Clarke at Ipswich comes to mind.

However until we have 2 or 3 other alternatives that are not just potential and are delivering in the here and now, let’s just try and enjoy Keane’s talents for what they are and appreciate that we have a striker that can play as a proper number 10 AND score close to 15 Premier League goals in a year. So he can come across a little petulant and frustrating at times, but not every Irish sportsman be as self effacing as the Munster rugby team and their captain Paul O’Connell. As a nation, we love the Italian and Argentinian national teams and forgive their petulance from time to time as we enjoy all the good things they bring to to game. Lets do the same for Robbie Keane. Let’s enjoy the tricks and flicks, because after all if we are not going to qualify for Euro 08, lets build for the future and enjoy the skilful attacking players we have like Keane, McGeady and Andy Reid. That’s what really makes football worth watching.

[galwayhoop]

robbie is our top all time goal scorer. i think he has scored a fair few of them against lesser teams and in friendlies but he did score the equaliser against the germans in WC2002!! i personally think he is a no. 10 and and not an out and out goalscorer. however due to our lacking in the goalscoring department in recent years much of that burden has fallen to him in recent years. perhaps with doyle on the scene now that may change. HOWEVER i don't think that you can just blindly pick him up front regardless of form / effort. he has been injured for a while now and only coming back to pushing for a place at spurs. unless he begins gettin his game regularly and is performing at a good level then an alternative to him for the san marino game has to be considered.

BTW i don't think robbie is a player that you can just sit back and watch his 'flicks and tricks' he is not ronaldhino!!!

[kingdom hoop]

thoroughly agree. it is both unlikely and unwise that robbie be dropped. he is by some distance our most technically gifted player. some may quibble with his goalscoring, but this is a problem that should be seen in an irish rather than a robbie keane context. as is said above he is not a number 9. he is not a good taker of one-on-ones, not good at scoring headers from crosses, doesnt have great pace, wont get up for long balls, isnt good with his back to goal(ie the abilities that spring to mind when talking about great goalscorers) but is still a pretty consistent scorer in a team that, realistically, doesnt provide him with abundant chances or decent passes to allow him to then do a little bit of work to create a good chance. we have been reliant, for the past few years, on him to do way too much, things that simply aren't in his make up. but, now, he finally has a fitting foil in doyle, a more typical centre forward and goalscorer.

the views of clarence seedorf on a young keane at inter are worth bearing in mind when discussing his role, and also the ronaldinho comparisons; "He is a phenomenon," said the Holland star.

"He is ready to play and he has some incredible moves in training, especially when it comes to dribbling.

"He's more or less in my position and I can tell you that he has just as good a chance as me of playing."(BBC)
Its surely worth noting that seedorf, a champions league winner coming from REal, thought that robbie was on a par with him in an attacking midfield role


i realise, or hope!, i'm probably preaching to the converted but its important to dispel the notion that robbie should be dropped, particularly in light of the potential that the doyle/keane partnership has. Anyone disagree?

[youngirish]

I don't think Robbie Keane or anyone else should be an automatic choice in the first 11. He was poor in the last set of qualifiers. Some of the players need some competitiion for places and are clearly not performing in the abscence of it (O' Shea and Keane being two of the most prominent offenders).

With the number of talented young Irish strikers starting to make a name for themselves I think this is one position where we should be able to chop and change if things aren't going to plan. Saying that I think he should start the San Marino game even if Doyle is fit but if Stokes bangs in 15 goals from now until the end of the season I think he should be given a chance instead in one of the upcoming qualifiers.

[Royal rover]

I think it's easy to be critical of keane, he's our top goalscorer and unfortunately up until recently he's been our only striker with any real credentials.

[czarner]

As a nation, we love the Italian and Argentinian national teams and forgive their petulance from time to time as we enjoy all the good things they bring to to game.

As an Irishman, I can honestly say I hate the Italian and Argentinian national teams more than any other because of their petulance, arrogance, cheating, and general unsportsmanlike conduct on the football field, and there are certainly parallels between Robbie's attitude and that generally displayed by members of these national teams, which is why he irritates me so much. That said, I'd agree with you that given his record he shouldn't be dropped unless there are alternatives who are clearly of an equivalent standard. I remember during the Dutch friendly about 3 years ago, when he picked up the ball around the halfway line and started running towards the opposition goal without paying any attention to the movement of his teammates, I turned to my girlfriend of the time and began explaining how this kind of selfish, egotistical behaviour was why I disliked him so much. Halfway through my rant, he scored THAT goal, and I've pretty much kept my mouth shut about him since.

[NeilMcD]

I think the runs off the ball that night were fantastic and Keane knew that they basically opened the route to goal for him and he took advantage of it. Andy Reids run off the ball should be shown to all young players.

[JimmyP]

I remember during the Dutch friendly about 3 years ago, when he picked up the ball around the halfway line and started running towards the opposition goal without paying any attention to the movement of his teammates, I turned to my girlfriend of the time and began explaining how this kind of selfish, egotistical behaviour was why I disliked him so much. Halfway through my rant, he scored THAT goal, and I've pretty much kept my mouth shut about him since.

haha, yeah - my dad did the exact same.

[OwlsFan]

An English Spurs friend of mine was at the game last night. I asked him how did Robbie get on. His reply was "ok but lacked a yard of pace". That doesn't bother me so long as he still has his tricks and can beat a player.

Incidentally, the same guy met Alan Mullery who said John Giles was a "sh*t, and the slyest/dirtiest player he played against".

Is this the same Mr Giles: the proponent of the beautiful game we see every Saturday night on RTE?.

[gustavo]

I fully endorse this Robbie love-in :)

[NeilMcD]

An English Spurs friend of mine was at the game last night. I asked him how did Robbie get on. His reply was "ok but lacked a yard of pace". That doesn't bother me so long as he still has his tricks and can beat a player.

Incidentally, the same guy met Alan Mullery who said John Giles was a "sh*t, and the slyest/dirtiest player he played against".

Is this the same Mr Giles: the proponent of the beautiful game we see every Saturday night on RTE?.

Alan Mullery is a **** in my view. If you ever see him on tv he talks so much rubbish. I thought Keans movement for his goals was fantastic but Berbatov was top class also and Malbranque put on a great display but I thought Keane looked very good for someone who was out for about 12 games.

[Kingdom]

Only saw the highlights but it was the first time I saw Keane come back from a long lay off and could say he looked fit and reasonably sharp.
Any previous time he has been out injured for a number of weeks, I've always felt he looked chunky and sluggish when returning. Not last night though.

[eirebhoy]

Incidentally, the same guy met Alan Mullery who said John Giles was a "sh*t, and the slyest/dirtiest player he played against".

Is this the same Mr Giles: the proponent of the beautiful game we see every Saturday night on RTE?.
I don't know about that. :) Giles doesn't rate Riquelme or Ronaldo because they don't do to the dirty work.

[geysir]

He rates them highly but not as top of the class midfielders. To be regarded by Johnny as being in the same league as Johnny, at least you have to have in your box of tricks the natural requirements of an all-round midfielder, that includes the ability to tackle, the awareness when to track back.

Anyone think Robbie's game is maturing?
I saw the game where he returned and came on a sub. He seems to have that bit more presence. A couple of his passes were sublime. A couple of times his vision is seconds ahead of the others. Looks like he has all the requirements for the role in the hole. He can lead attacks from the left from the right and from the middle. He's a handful for any defence.
Anyone think that he is our most important player after Shay?

[Qwerty]

I don't know about that. :) Giles doesn't rate Riquelme or Ronaldo because they don't do to the dirty work.


I wouldn't have Riquelme in my pub team. When you basically set up your team so that virtually all creativity has to come from one man you are screwed unless you have Maradona. Maradona won the 86 WC virtually on his own, take him out of that team and it was crap. Peckerman wasted so much talent by his misguided setup in the last WC.

BTW Keane is our #1 striker and has been for a while, people criticise him but he hasn't had a really suitable partner. Perhaps Doyle can fill the void. If you want to criticize Robbie then focus on the rubbish gymnastics of his. I cringe when he cartwheels.

[OwlsFan]

Alan Mullery is a **** in my view. If you ever see him on tv he talks so much rubbish. I thought Keans movement for his goals was fantastic but Berbatov was top class also and Malbranque put on a great display but I thought Keane looked very good for someone who was out for about 12 games.


Agree with you about Mullery but it is interesting to hear his unsolicited private view on Giles as someone who played against him.

Fingers crossed for Robbie that he'll remain injury free and get back to his best.

[cavan_fan]

BTW Keane is our #1 striker and has been for a while, people criticise him but he hasn't had a really suitable partner. Perhaps Doyle can fill the void. If you want to criticize Robbie then focus on the rubbish gymnastics of his. I cringe when he cartwheels.

It's when he lets go of both the bow and arrow that i hate.

[tetsujin1979]

It's when he lets go of both the bow and arrow that i hate.

He did that once, and he only did it because a mate of his in England asked him to do it if he scored in the World Cup

[NeilMcD]

Agree with you about Mullery but it is interesting to hear his unsolicited private view on Giles as someone who played against him.

Fingers crossed for Robbie that he'll remain injury free and get back to his best.

I think its well known that Giles was a nasty piece of stuff on the pitch.

[Billsthoughts]

Take that back McD unless you have facts to back it up!!!!

[OwlsFan]

I see Giles has his own Bebo site ;)

http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=289907694

[geysir]

It was well known that pint sizes Giles was a hard man with renowned brilliant football ability. Not just a nasty piece of stuff. Afair, his discipline record was very good.
Incedently, Fabregas is one of the few EPL midfielders that Giles is fulsome in his praise for. idhttp://www.nobok.co.uk/page/VideoArchiveDetail/0,,10301~821082,00.html

[gustavo]

He is right about Fabregas , he has so much potential its scary hard to beleive hes not even 20 yet

[OwlsFan]

Incedently, Fabregas is one of the few EPL midfielders that Giles is fulsome in his praise for.

He was waxing lyrical about Scoles as well last weekend. Same sort of player as himself so hence he likes him.

Back to Mullery. ANyone remember his goal of the season?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NLueHEhKTc

[ofjames]

robbie is a class act when he plays well. no doubt about it. But his perofrmances for ireland havent reflected his class on too many occasions. If we ignore friendlies (which are of no consequence in reality) his goalscoring record for Ireland is one of a very mediocre striker, not one of true international class. For a player we consider now to be one of our 3 genuinely top players (given, duff and robbie) - he has never played anywhere near as good for ireland (apart from at the world cup in 2002) than he does for spurs.

Look at his competitive record for ireland

Euro 2000 Qualifiers - 4 goals

1-v-Yugoslavia
0-v-Croatia
0-v-Macedonia
3-v-Malta

World Cup 2002

1-v-holland
0-v-Portugal
0-v-Estonia
0-v-Cyrpus
0-v-Andorra
1-v-Iran

World Cup 2002

1-v-germany
0-v-cameroon
1-v-saudi arabia
1-v-spain (pen)

Euro 2004

0-v-russia
0-v-switzerland
1-v-gerogia
1-v-albania

World Cup 2005

0-v-France
0-v-switzerland
1-v-israel (pen)
1-v-cyprus (pen)
1-v-Faroes

Euro 2008 so far

0-v-Germany
0-v-Czech Reo
3-v-San Marino (1 pen??)

Off all the games against the top two seeds in each group and in the world cup second round robbie has scored only 5 goals in his international career!!!! and one was a penalty!!!!!! woeful record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!which means either one of two things 1) either he's just not as good as we think or 2) he's just not doing the business for us when he plays. Given his performances for spurs (2 fans player of the year awards out of 4 seasons i think) i think im inclined to agree with the latter

[Saint Tom]

good post ofjames.

sums up the waster to be honest. Someone mentioned about his cartwheels, I wouldn't mind if we saw more of it because at least it means he is doing what he is supposed to.. putting the ball in the net. His attitude as a captain is atrocious, people seem to forget his "hands on hips" display in Cyprus, blaming others when he is the very player you need to grab the game by the balls

[eirebhoy]

robbie is a class act when he plays well. no doubt about it. But his perofrmances for ireland havent reflected his class on too many occasions. If we ignore friendlies (which are of no consequence in reality) his goalscoring record for Ireland is one of a very mediocre striker, not one of true international class.
Lets have a look at Miroslav Klose, the top scorer at the last world cup. 33 international goals altogether.

World Cup 2002 qualifiers

1-v-Albania
1-v-Greece
0-v-Finland
0-v-England
0-v-Finland

World Cup 2002

3-v-Saudi Arabia
1-v-Ireland
1-v-Cameroon

Euro 2004 Q's

0-v-Lithuania
1-v-Faroe Islands
0-v-Lithuania
0-v-Scotland
1-v-Faroe Islands
0-v-Iceland
0-v-Scotland
0-v-Iceland

Euro 2004

0-v-Latvia
0-v-Czech Republic

World Cup 2006

2-v-Costa Rica
2-v-Ecuador
1-v-Argentina

Euro 2008 Q's

1-v-San Marino

I don't know which were penalties.

Then you have Theirry Henry. In the Euro 2004 qualifiers he scored 6 goals. 4 against Malta, 1 against Cyprus, 1 against Israel. In the WC qualifiers he got 1 against Cyprus and 1 against Ireland.

As for Keane. You forgot his goal against Turkey and the one against Israel was a cracker, not a peno. And it's 3 player of the year award at Spurs btw. ;)

[kingdom hoop]

And it's 3 player of the year award at Spurs btw. ;)

a pertinent point, playing with better and more suitable players he has played very well. his form for ireland, whether poor, ok, good, very good etc. should not hold as much importance as his club form, which if we picked our players by and their importance to us he would be in the top 5, ~(given, dunne, keane, doyle, duff, finnan, s.reid, carsley, a.reid.....)

goalscoring - did keane score 25 goals a season for spurs to deserve the fans awards?

drop him - no, international football is not about dropping players to give them a kick up the backside, or having a rotational policy. when it comes to a big match we want our very best players to be playing(surely?), instead of dropping our better players why not drop(for SM) those in the second tier(Jos, o'brien, kilbane, morrison) so that if they start the bigger games they know there are lads eagerly waiting in the wings

[OwlsFan]

Was very disappointed in his performance for Spurs last night. He played two good passes but the rest of the time he was anonymous and found it hard to get in to the game. He came on early in the game when Spurs were leading when Berbetrov (sic) was injured and Jol played him out left and he was like a headless chicken.

Not the Robbie I remember and admire but it might have something to do with the roll he was given.

[galwayhoop]

Incidentally, the same guy met Alan Mullery who said John Giles was a "sh*t, and the slyest/dirtiest player he played against".

Is this the same Mr Giles: the proponent of the beautiful game we see every Saturday night on RTE?.

Giles was a class footballer. he also played in a time when the likes of christiano ronaldo wouldn't have got onto a schools team (due to the physicality not ability). for better or worse the game was infinately more physical at the time and teams like leeds were well able to mix it with anyone but also had some fine footballers, giles included.

at the time teams from the 'south' of england were seen as soft and were useless when travelling north. spurs were at the time (and still are) a team of good footballers who lacked physicallity and 'bottle'. the like of leeds (espically), liverpool and man utd were always able to beat teams like these if not through football then through a bit of physicality or if you want intimidation.

different times and a different game but to say he was sh1te and just dirty and sly is a total dis-service to the man.

incidently the above characteristics are very similar to a mister R.Keane (not the one who the thread is about) and he is famed by most on the island and in britain as a superb footballer.

also i don't think giles is an exponent of the beautiful game either but much perfers hard working teams with a good football phlosophy and the occasional bit of flair (in the right areas of the pitch).

[eirebhoy]

Giles was a class footballer. he also played in a time when the likes of christiano ronaldo wouldn't have got onto a schools team (due to the physicality not ability).
If C.Ronaldo played back then he'd be regarded as an all time great. :) As much as I dislike the guy, the standard of football (like every sport) is improving every year and Ronaldo would have stuck out much more back then.

I only saw the highlights of Spurs last night. Robbie was ruled offside when the replays showed he was behind the defender. It would have been interesting to see if he'd have scored that simple 1 on 1. :)

[hoops1]

[QUOTE=Qwerty;607464 Maradona won the 86 WC virtually on his own, take him out of that team and it was crap.[/QUOTE]

Amazing ignorance.

[galwayhoop]

If C.Ronaldo played back then he'd be regarded as an all time great. :) As much as I dislike the guy, the standard of football (like every sport) is improving every year and Ronaldo would have stuck out much more back then.


i appreciate his ability football wise but what i was refering to was his inability to stay on his feet with the most meagre of contact. the amazing thing about george best is how he had the strength to ride even the most vicious of tackles. but perhaps ronaldo would have altered his game as no prizes for going to the deck so cheaply in them days!!

i definately agree with how the quality is improving every year and it's why it is impossible to compare players from such different era's. i saw ricky villa's cup final goal lately and thought to myself that it would just about make a goal of the season top ten nowadays - if even - whereas at the time it was unbelievable!

[citizenerased]

Doesnt say much for football back then then,,,Most premiership teams ousside top 4 can barely string too passes together these days

[eirebhoy]

Amazing ignorance.
Agreed. It wasn't until the 90's that South American players started to move to Europe in their droves. Therefore almost everyone in that Argentina squad were domestic based players and not household names over here. There was still Jorge Valdano of Real Madrid and Burruchaga of Nantes. His Napoli team must be one of the most underrated. It was full of international players from Italy, Brazil and Argentina including Ferrara, De Napoli, Alemao, Francini, Baroni, Careca.


Doesnt say much for football back then then,,,Most premiership teams ousside top 4 can barely string too passes together these days
Look at this famous picture:
http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/19/xinsrc_3116fbc2987d45718c6be1b97da0d063_m1.jpg

All it takes is a long ball from Maradona and it should result in a goal for Argentina, as surely most of the Argentina team are left free. These days players get very little time on the ball. It's completely different.

[John83]

Look at this famous picture:
http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/19/xinsrc_3116fbc2987d45718c6be1b97da0d063_m1.jpg

All it takes is a long ball from Maradona and it should result in a goal for Argentina, as surely most of the Argentina team are left free. These days players get very little time on the ball. It's completely different.
:rolleyes: Free. Kick. Just. Bounced. Off. Wall. Damn it.

[EalingGreen]

Interesting thread. I'm a Spurs fan and a big admirer of Robbie Keane, so here's my tuppence worth.
I was at the game last night (I know, I know - they're going to drive me bonkers one of these days). Anyhow, I'm afraid Robbie looked v.much "off the pace" to me. This was exacerbated by having to play up alongside Defoe (I can see why Jol doesn't ever want to pair them) and reached its nadir in the 2nd half when the Arse started to **** all over us.
That said, he's hugely popular amongst the fans at WHL, which wouldn't be the case unless he'd performed consistently well over a number of seasons. It also helps that he's one of a type of player which the Spurs fans traditionally love (about which more later).
I also get the impression that out of him or Defoe, Jol would choose Robbie, though he desperately wants to keep both and must be praying for the 1st February.

Anyhow, as regards his place in the ROI team, I'm amazed there's so much criticism of him. Granted, as a Spurs man I'm biased, plus I've not seen that much of him in an ROI shirt (they tend to play on the same dates as "you know who"!)
However, I can only conclude that whether for tactical reasons, or for personnel reasons, they don't know how to get the best of him.
First of all, whilst Robbie can score some great goals, he's not a "great goalscorer" i.e. a natural finisher. As such, I'd normally expect 15 - 20 goals a season from him, no more. Whereas, someone like Defoe is a finisher, from whom I would expect 25 goals a season. (However, he'll not do nearly as much for the rest of the team as Robbie)
At Spurs, Jol always prefers a big man/little man combination up front, with Berbatov presently being the big man (and Mido as back up).
As such, with Berbatov being such a good finisher, it's not so essential to the team for Robbie to score.
Therefore, he is at his best either playing off the shoulder of Berbatov/Mido, or drifting into wide positions/dropping deep, to pull defenders out of position and leave more space for Berbatov.
It helps, too, that he's a rare example these days of a dribbler who relies on skill, trickery and unorthodoxy to beat his man, rather than pace or short, quick passing. (Incidentally, it's these qualities which everyone loves at the Lane).
One other thing: someone posted about him playing on the left wing for Spurs. I think this is his acting under instructions from Jol, since the left side is a problem area at Spurs and we don't have an obvious candidate. Whereas, Aaron Lennon is a great little right winger, who creates chances for the strikers from down that side. However, it is only a part of Robbie's game and besides, he and Lennon occasionally switch wings temporarily, to fool their marker.
(Incidentally, I think the ROI might benefit from recreating this club partnership with Duff, obviously with Robbie drifting out right, whilst Duff patrols the left side)

Anyhow, I think it is unrealistic to expect Robbie to lead the line for the ROI and be your main scorer as well. Now as it happens, it may be that you've got your natural finisher in Kevin Doyle. However, he's still inexperienced and I'm not sure he's got the physical qualities or knowledge(yet, at least) to play the big man/little man combination alongside Robbie at international level.
Consequently, I'd be inclined to pick Doyle and A.N.Other up front, and give Robbie complete freedom to play anywhere either alongside them, on the wing, or tucked into "the hole" behind.
Of course, this would mean trusting Robbie to decide for himself, even within the course of a game, where to apply himself to the team's best advantage.
But he's now very experienced, not just in games played, but also from having been coached by a lot of top guys at a number of different clubs (inc. in Italy).
Having three attacking players (plus Duff) would also mean leaving the midfield a little light, but I don't see that you've got too many top quality midfielders at the moment, so it's not as if you'd be excluding someone special. It would probably mean, however, delegating someone to play the holding role in deep midfield, to avoid being vulnerable at counter-attacks (Carsley, maybe?).

Anyhow, I guess this means building the team round one or two players, which is not something I would normally suggest. But it seems to me that with the ROI squad being thinner than it's been for some time, you are going to have to get the best out of your "big" players (at least until the youngster come through), so I don't see what other option there is.

Which, after all, is only what Sanchez did immediately he took over NI, when he realised that he had to pick a team to get the best out of David Healy (who most definitely is a finisher), and we've all seen the results there!

Of course, whether Staunton sees it like that, or even whether he's found the "North West Passage" connecting his arse to his elbow, is quite another question...;)

[irishfan86]

Watched that match against Arsenal and Robbie looked off the pace alright, hopefully it's just rust after returning from injury...

[dr_peepee]

It's like everything else... He needs games. Sometimes I wish he was at a club that had ideas in keeping with the status. This lark of having four quality strikers is a myth perpetuated by the United treble winning team..... and that was only facilitated by one player, OGS . If it wasn't for his abillity, patience and alround personality the 4 quality striker idea would have fell flat on it's face then, just as it is now for every club the tries it. Defoe and keane are both stagnating as players at Spurs at the expense of each other.

Competition is healthy, but that level of performance accountability is Fruitless. You do need depth at this level but it has to be with people content to play less games ie A Rookie or a Veteran. I would have liked to see Keane at Everton or Villa at various stages over the last couple of years.

[OwlsFan]

Doesnt say much for football back then then,,,Most premiership teams ousside top 4 can barely string too passes together these days

And yet they all advanced to the last whatnot of the UEFA Cup. Football European wide must also be in the doldrums.