Everton and Liverpool discussion

[Oink]

Heitinga is far more versatile than Dunne and that was probably the major influence. He can play RB, CB, DM, CM competently and with Everton having a relatively small first team squad its a no brainer. I'm a big fan of Heitinga especially as a defensive mid, he has had a few rough patches in his career but I think he's a talent and a bargain at £6m and the premiership style of footie should suit him.

[OwlsFan]

Heitinga is far more versatile than Dunne and that was probably the major influence. He can play RB, CB, DM, CM competently and with Everton having a relatively small first team squad its a no brainer. I'm a big fan of Heitinga especially as a defensive mid, he has had a few rough patches in his career but I think he's a talent and a bargain at £6m and the premiership style of footie should suit him.

But do Everton need a "defensive mid" - the Arsenal result apart - their problem I think last season was putting the ball in the onion sack but that's only from me, a casual observer.

[Dillo]

Is there light at the end of the tunnel? http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/injury-list-to-shrink.html

We have to beat Villa this weekend

[OwlsFan]

I still haven't forgiven them for 1966 :p

Are they one of the few teams never to have been relegated from the top flight or am I wrong?

[OwlsFan]

I see Everton's suggestion to Liverpool that they construct a shared ground has been given the cold shoulder by Liverpool.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/everton/6664265/Liverpool-refuse-to-consider-groundshare-as-Everton-continue-hunt-for-new-home.html

[OwlsFan]

Everton were the better team in yesterday's derby but still managed to come out on the wrong end of a 0-2. I thought they played some good stuff in the first half but just don't have that cutting edge. Liverpool, won but the victory papers over the cracks.

[razor]

Everton were the better team in yesterday's derby but still managed to come out on the wrong end of a 0-2. I thought they played some good stuff in the first half but just don't have that cutting edge. Liverpool, won but the victory papers over the cracks.Agree totally, Liverpool are impotent without Torres and will never be an attacking force with 2 defensive midfielders in the middle.
Everton like Liverpool are lacking in a decent striker and confidence.

[OwlsFan]

Interesting article today on the 50th anniversary of Bill Shankly's taking the reins at Liverpool:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01534/bill-shankly_1534159c.jpg

Probably the best British manager of all time with Brian CLough a close second.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/liverpool/6695026/Bill-Shankly-50th-anniversary-sheer-willpower-set-Liverpool-legend-apart.html

I also love some of his quotes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/liverpool/6692873/Bill-Shankly-50th-anniversary-famous-sayings-of-legendary-Liverpool-manager.html

[OwlsFan]

I heard Phil Thompson saying recently that Moyes had done "an unbelievable job" at Everton. He said it on Sky so it's the usual "skyperbole" but I would suggest that perhaps "reasonable" would be a better description. They were once a club that used to win things (the 1966 FA CUp Final still hurts) but now they seem to have settled for comfortable existence in the Premiership. They seem to be having a shot this year at the FA Cup (I know they lost a Final and a semi a few years back) but is that enough for a club like Everton or is, without the money of the Liverpools or Man Us/Citys/Chelseas, mid-table mediocrity now an unbelieveable achievement?

[osarusan]

Average 14th place finish in the pre-Moyes years, average is 8th place now. 5th this year, and look at the budgets of the team above them (and a number below them).

[centre mid]

Moyes is over-hyped and over rated (i'm an Everton fan btw), he has a shocking statistic in that he has never won an away league match against Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea or (most crucially) Liverpool. He is also one of the best paid managers in Britain. He arguably has had the best squad we've had since the late 80's and has won no major piece of silverware.

I think a lot of people in the game spout superlatives about him but no big club (club with money to spend) have taken a chance on him, Chelsea & Spurs were rumoured to be sniffing around but when Spurs sacked Arry they looked elsewhere. Villa did make an approach before but that would be a step backwards for him.

He is too cautious.

[bennocelt]

Average 14th place finish in the pre-Moyes years, average is 8th place now. 5th this year, and look at the budgets of the team above them (and a number below them).

He is doing a fantastic job IMHO, with a limited budget. Most Everton fans I know are happy with him in charge

[SkStu]

Suarez - scum. Can't wait to hear the Liverpool fans defend this.

[geysir]

This is an almost dead thread, you might be waiting a few years for someone to bite.


What did the ref see?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSg0OQyVOv6ulKHevkUwm7l2HSWKpglW OurUB5ri1T1sC7EGDclRQ

[NeverFeltBetter]

If Suarez wins POTY now...

[BonnieShels]

I doubt he will. He hasn't posted here in a while.

[ArdeeBhoy]

?...?

[geysir]

I just caught the first few minutes of the 2nd half, to when Liverpool scored their first, there was just some devastatingly brilliant football played by Liverpool in that period.
The EPL rocks!

[DannyInvincible]

I doubt he will. He hasn't posted here in a while.

If Bonnie doesn't win POTY now...

[OwlsFan]

Avoiding the plethora of puns, much talk about Liverpool getting rid of him now as he is blackening the club's name. It's not going to happen and if it does, they'll be mad. I remember Wednesday didn't stand by Di Canio when he pushed the referee. He was transferred and the club was relegated the next season and haven't come back since.

Amazing how neither manager saw the incident after the game but if it had been a disallowed goal or an incorrect sending off....wierd how they all suffer from myopia when it suits.

[NeverFeltBetter]

They'd only get rid of him if the offer was amazingly good. A lot of commentators acting like Liverpool had a completely flawless PR image before he arrived and it's all ruined now. As long as he keeps scoring, they'll keep him, and they're right too in that respect.

[shakermaker1982]

Avoiding the plethora of puns, much talk about Liverpool getting rid of him now as he is blackening the club's name. It's not going to happen and if it does, they'll be mad. I remember Wednesday didn't stand by Di Canio when he pushed the referee. He was transferred and the club was relegated the next season and haven't come back since.

Amazing how neither manager saw the incident after the game but if it had been a disallowed goal or an incorrect sending off....wierd how they all suffer from myopia when it suits.

The Benitez interview was awful. He was trying so hard to not upset the Liverpool fans. The 45 seconds issue was much more important........he can then lay the blame at the ref's door instead of coming out and saying how disgusted he was with Suarez and Sturridge.

I'm amazed Ivanovic didn't make more of it. At the very least confront the scumbag. If Suarez tried that at a Sunday morning League match he'd have caused a riot. What a crazy thing to do.

[Charlie Darwin]

Avoiding the plethora of puns, much talk about Liverpool getting rid of him now as he is blackening the club's name.
It's hilarious how after all the bad sportsmanship, cheating and racism, he's finally crossed the line with some fans.

[geysir]

On the cheating, Suarez has made an effort and turned that one around, whilst other profile players continue to cheat, season after season, to get other players sent off.
He probably provided the most ironic moment of the season for Liverpool fans, in that game against Everton.

[DeLorean]

Liverpool have said his future is still at Anfield anyway. Amazing what you can get away with if you're good enough. Not that I blame them by the way, Liverpool need Suarez far more than Suarez needs Liverpool.

[Eminence Grise]

Need and availability are two different things: he only meets Liverpool's needs if he's available to play. What length ban is he facing for a violent conduct charge? He got seven matches for the same offence in the Netherlands. Eight for the Evra incident. Add two or three more for coming up to match fitness. There comes a point where a player who is unavailable for lengthy periods of time just isn't worth keeping.

[SkStu]

Amazing how neither manager saw the incident after the game but if it had been a disallowed goal or an incorrect sending off....wierd how they all suffer from myopia when it suits.

in fairness, i think it would be difficult to spot the incident from the sidelines.

[OwlsFan]

in fairness, i think it would be difficult to spot the incident from the sidelines.

In fairness they are usually able to see any other incident which impacts adversely on their team including offsides, balls over the line etc etc

[DeLorean]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8546/8673588764_230977ef62_o.gif

[KK77]

In fairness they are usually able to see any other incident which impacts adversely on their team including offsides, balls over the line etc etc

Yeah every manager is the same.

[DeLorean]

Rafa was definitely keeping the Pool fans happy... he sees himself back there for sure. You'll be getting that name changed back yet KK!!

[KK77]

Rafa was definitely keeping the Pool fans happy... he sees himself back there for sure. You'll be getting that name changed back yet KK!!

Did he say he was coming back?

[DeLorean]

Talked about returning to the city of Liverpool as his wife and kids are there. Pretty obvious he'd grab the job if it was offered I think.

How're you finding Mr. Rodgers so far?

[KK77]

Talked about returning to the city of Liverpool as his wife and kids are there. Pretty obvious he'd grab the job if it was offered I think.

How're you finding the Mr. Rodgers so far?

I would hope he wouldn't take it now myself. In many ways some are getting what they deserve with 7th/8th place finishes but sure what's done is done!

I think he is doing ok but fear the Sky generation will put him under huge pressure if he doesn't get off to a flyer next season. I would like to think the owners will give him the three years he has signed up for. The last thing needed is another new manager.

[SkStu]

In fairness they are usually able to see any other incident which impacts adversely on their team including offsides, balls over the line etc etc

Sorry, i just think that you are trying to compare 2 very different types of incident. With a ball over the line or an offside you are generally following the ball or the play and will have an idea or be certain of a particular moment or issue related to that passage of play. When someone gnaws on another players arm in what is essentially an off the ball incident then i imagine it would be very difficult for a manager to see it unless he happens to be looking at the two players at that exact moment.

[DeLorean]

I think he is doing ok but fear the Sky generation will put him under huge pressure if he doesn't get off to a flyer next season. I would like to think the owners will give him the three years he has signed up for. The last thing needed is another new manager.

Yeah I'd go along with that I think. It's hard to know if he is big enough for the job but time will tell and, as you say, another new manager would be pointless at this stage.

[geysir]

What's the viewpoint on the punishment for Luis?
Personally I think a 3 match ban is just about right. Anything more is just politics not justice.
Outrageous as it was and from a player who is a repeat offender of similar immature acts, I'd still rank it way lower on the scale. A scale which is topped by a player cheating/simulating injury to get another fellow player sent off, and I'd rank it lower than a dive in the penalty box. Probably similar to a deliberate elbow, even though a deliberate elbow has more serious potential, usually it doesn't.

[SkStu]

What's the viewpoint on the punishment for Luis?
Personally I think a 3 match ban is just about right. Anything more is just politics not justice.
Outrageous as it was and from a player who is a repeat offender of similar immature acts, I'd still rank it way lower on the scale. A scale which is topped by a player cheating/simulating injury to get another fellow player sent off, and I'd rank it lower than a dive in the penalty box. Probably similar to a deliberate elbow, even though a deliberate elbow has more serious potential, usually it doesn't.

I'm not sure really. There's a 7 match ban that he received before which sets a bit of precedence. I'd imagine it'll be in that ball park.

Either way, I'm sure the FA will chat to Fergie first.

[Closed Account 2]

The trouble is the FA have set a precident when Germaine Defoé was given a yellow card for biting Mascherano against West Ham, and after the match the yellow stood and there was no extra punishment. If they give him say a 4 game ban then I doubt Liverpool or the player will appeal and so the ban will stand and he'll be back next season. If they give him a longer ban of say 8+ games, which will carry some way into next season, then I could see the club and/or the player appealing on the basis Defoé set a precident and, legally, it could be hard to argue against that.

[DeLorean]

I never knew there was a fada in Defoe :)

[DeLorean]

Personally I don't think Defoe's was as bad. Firstly, at least it was reactionary. Secondly, it just didn't look as malicious. Thirdly, and possibly least importantly, it was out of character.

I think there's a bit too much being made of the Suarez thing but the fact that he's done it before is what counts against him most. He really does deserve an unmerciful kick up the hole for not learning from his mistake.

[Charlie Darwin]

Defoe wasn't retrospectively banned because the referee had seen it and was satisfied he had dealt with it properly on the pitch. Otherwise he surely would have been banned.

[Stuttgart88]

In fairness they are usually able to see any other incident which impacts adversely on their team including offsides, balls over the line etc etc

The ball had gone in another direction so I think it's totally justifiable that everyone missed it. The only thing that alerted the TV commentators and most of the watching public to the incident was Ivanovic's reaction, trying to show the ref he had been bitten.

I agree with the general tone, the observation that managers are whingeing juveniles when it comes to trying to pin blame on officials all the time, but this was off the ball and hard to see.

[KK77]

Ten game ban. I would hope the club will accept it and not appeal. At the end of the day Saurez has no one but himself to blame. Two games might be league cup games so only four league games next season would be missed if he is still around then.

[geysir]

Defoe wasn't retrospectively banned because the referee had seen it and was satisfied he had dealt with it properly on the pitch. Otherwise he surely would have been banned.
I had a look at it the other day and I'd go more on the line of Delorean, the ref was right there and saw the whole thing, including the Mascherano overreaction. It was just a cheeky nibble on the light side, what actually brought the game into potential chaos was Mascherano faking it.
It was a case of the ref saw it all and took the appropriate action.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzXBSvngRR0

[Closed Account 2]

Suarez has got a 10 game ban, 4 matches left this season and so 6 for next season.


Defoe wasn't retrospectively banned because the referee had seen it and was satisfied he had dealt with it properly on the pitch. Otherwise he surely would have been banned.

The thing is Ben Tatcher got a yellow card for his forearm smash on Pedro Mendez, but the FA circumvented its usual "no re-refereeing" stance to hit him with a charge of "serious foul play" against Thatcher and gave him an eight game ban. 3 months later Germaine Defoé bites Mascherano, yet he doesnt get the charge of "serious foul play" and his yellow card stands with no further punishment. Legally Liverpool could argue that a 10 game ban is excessive given the Defoé precident for biting and if say it went further than the FA (say to CAS) then the ban could be reduced.

[DeLorean]

Severe enough but I suppose if you get 8 for being a racist, you should surely get 10 for being a cannibal racist :)

[Charlie Darwin]

I had a look at it the other day and I'd go more on the line of Delorean, the ref was right there and saw the whole thing, including the Mascherano overreaction. It was just a cheeky nibble on the light side, what actually brought the game into potential chaos was Mascherano faking it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzXBSvngRR0
Are we really debating the severity of a nibble compared to a bite? But my point was that the referee had dealt with it so even if the FA had deemed it worthy of further punishment, they were constrained from doing so by their own rules.

[patrickccfc]

He got 8 games for racism. i would think that is worse than biting so i dont really get how he has got 10 games

[DeLorean]

Suarez has got a 10 game ban, 4 matches left this season and so 6 for next season.

Did I hear correctly that Suarez yellow card for the handball penalty incident was his 10th of the season? Is this not an automatic two game ban or am I well off the mark?