Everton and Liverpool discussion [Archive] - Page 2

tiktok

09/12/2004, 7:30 AM

I hope every Man Ure fan enjoyed that Gerrard special. p

Which one?
Where he went over the ball near the sideline and could have broken the guys leg or when he overran the ball and decided karate kicking someone in the thigh was justified :rolleyes:

The better team won, no doubt about that, Kewell actually looked OK, Sinama and Finnan were excellent, but Gerrard shouldn't have been on the pitch to score the third.
He's a petulant idiot and probably has the highest wage to IQ ratio in the world.

Kingdom

09/12/2004, 8:27 AM

He's a petulant idiot and probably has the highest wage to IQ ratio in the world.

Even though I'd support the pool I fcukin love that statement. Quite possibly the funniest quote n this forum ever.

:D

Real ale Madrid

09/12/2004, 8:32 AM

The first was very bad alright, similar to his attempt to break Naysmith's leg a year back. World class my arse. A good midfielder with a very nasty streak.

The second was just silly, but the first should have got him the red.

Gerard is world class - with a nasty streak. What really got to me last night was Dumphy ranting on about how Gerard had to mature. I mean what about Roy keane - he's ended the odd career with a tackle here and there - sounded almost incredibly hypocritical.

Liverpool well deserved thier win last night and Benitez did a tremendous job on the line - showed more tactical nous on the sideline last night then Houiller did in his entire career. Unfortunately that's as far as they will go on the evidence of the competition so far.

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 8:47 AM

Even though I'd support the pool I fcukin love that statement. Quite possibly the funniest quote n this forum ever.

:D

Nah the funniest statement is Conor's "world class my arse" !! Ok Conor :rolleyes:

Declan_Michael

09/12/2004, 8:48 AM

Loved the Sky Sports reporter last night "there used to big European nights at Anfield - afterall they,ve won 4 european cups" :)

Nuff Said ;)

Macy

09/12/2004, 8:49 AM

I mean what about Roy keane - he's ended the odd career with a tackle here and there - sounded almost incredibly hypocritical.
Name the players. Haaland tried to blame/sue Keane, but the medical evidence said it was nothing to do with the "take that, you untc" tackle.....

Real ale Madrid

09/12/2004, 9:33 AM

Name the players. Haaland tried to blame/sue Keane, but the medical evidence said it was nothing to do with the "take that, you untc" tackle.....

Ah y'know what i mean Keane always had a nasty streak and Dumphy was talking sh1te. Was being too literal there. i know he never did.

I only go on the evidence i see as well - and Gerard has dragged Liverpool from the medicore time and time again. He has been a one man show for Liverpool at times - he had a fine game against Arsenal last week and as well as grafting in midfield can score goals and get crosses in as well. An all round player and a world class one at that.

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 9:53 AM

Well keep believing Sky Sports hype.

I'll form my opinions on the basis of what I see, particularly in the latter stages of major tournaments and the Champions League. I will concede that he had a fine game against Germany in qualifiers many years back, and he may also be very good against teams like Southampton, Charlton, Portsmouth...must be the challenge of playing all their 'world class' players too...

I form my opinions too on what I see, and I've seen him in the flesh many times, as well as on your patronising Sky Sports jibe.

He carries that team and drives them forward Conor and if you think he's not world class then that's your opinion but believe me, you are are a huge minority.

The fact he could take his pick of any team in the world that could afford him if he becomes available say's it all really.

Gary

09/12/2004, 10:13 AM

No doubting Gerrads ability, but can you really say a guy is 'world-class' when he has yet to really shine on the big stage?

He was very mediocre in Euro 2004, when faced with real class opposition. He played well last night, but certainly not as good as what people will have you think.

Troy.McClure

09/12/2004, 10:18 AM

He's a petulant idiot and probably has the highest wage to IQ ratio in the world.
Its tight between himself and G Double-ya. Id guess that the presidential pension is pretty good so I'll shade it to W :o

noby

09/12/2004, 10:24 AM

Fairy-tale ending aside, it could have easily been a case of club captain issues come-and-get-me plee at press conference on eve of biggest game of season, then gets himself stupidly sent-off as team crash out of europe.

Whatever about his ability, 6 months ago he was on the verge of leaving, but then signed a new 4 year deal, under a new manager. Now he's coming out with the same stuff again. I think it's time to bite the bullet, get shot of him, and go on a spending spree with the russian millions

joeSoap

09/12/2004, 10:43 AM

Whatever about his ability, 6 months ago he was on the verge of leaving, but then signed a new 4 year deal, under a new manager. Now he's coming out with the same stuff again. I think it's time to bite the bullet, get shot of him, and go on a spending spree with the russian millions
Spot on...and I feel thats exactly what this Benitez guy will do with him.Secretly he must have been fuming by Gerrards antics, and doesn't strike me as the type of guy that will take too much sh1t from a little upstart like him.He could bring in 3 quality players on the shedload of dosh he gets from selling that tosser.

Karlos

09/12/2004, 10:49 AM

No doubting Gerrads ability, but can you really say a guy is 'world-class' when he has yet to really shine on the big stage?
.

Yes you can becuase if you could not say it then by default you would be suggesting that the following players who have had their moments in big stages are better and more rewarding of the title 'world class'

Nicolas Anelka - Champions League semi Final
Steve McManaman - Champions League Final
Paul Lambert - Champions League Final
Stefan Kuntz - Euro 96 Final
Tomas Brolin - World Cup 94 quarter final (fond memories for leeds fans)
Ilie Dumitrescu - World Cup '94 (Likewise for Spurs fans
El Hadj Diouf - World Cup 2002 (exceptional in that tournament - world class my ar$e!)

you see where I'm going here.......are these players more fitting to the title of world class than Steven Gerrard, Wayne Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo, John Terry, Damien Duff etc etc..........

To judge a footballer's potential or ability on a single tournament or match is rediculous - it would be like classing the dutch teams of '74 and '78 as rubbish becuase they couldn't go the extra mile or win or paying 40 million for Gary Breen beacuse of World Cup 2002!!!!!!!!

NY Hoop

09/12/2004, 11:05 AM

I form my opinions too on what I see, and I've seen him in the flesh many times, as well as on your patronising Sky Sports jibe.

He carries that team and drives them forward Conor and if you think he's not world class then that's your opinion but believe me, you are are a huge minority.

The fact he could take his pick of any team in the world that could afford him if he becomes available say's it all really.

Huge minority? Dont think so. He has ability no doubt but is it really something to be the driving force of that team?

"Pick of any team in the world" Havent heard any top class Spanish or Italian clubs coming for him yet.

Guy is an absolute **** to say what he said before the game though. Olympiacos were a disgrace in the second half.

KOH

joeSoap

09/12/2004, 11:06 AM

Yes, but Gerrards ability to be world class only shows up every now and then, and rarely if ever against quality teams. He certainly wouldn't be in the world-class league of Roy Keane, Zinedine Zidane, Luis Figo, Denis Bergkamp, and a few others. He wouldn't lace any of their boots....

joeSoap

09/12/2004, 11:07 AM

NY Hoop

09/12/2004, 11:25 AM

Can't believe I'm agreeing with you on something.....HELP!!!! :D

You can redeem yourself by coming with your usual anti Rovers drivel again :D :D

KOH

joeSoap

09/12/2004, 11:36 AM

You can redeem yourself by coming with your usual anti Rovers drivel again :D :D

KOH
Nah....it's off-season. Time to give even the small-minded, rudderless, Roddy's baby a break for a few weeks.... :D :D

joeSoap

09/12/2004, 11:39 AM

I dunno where you get your majority, but is it the same majority in the world that thinks David Backham is a footballing God?

FFS....Even Beckham is streets ahead of Gerrard as a footballer, and thats not saying a whole lot :eek:

NY Hoop

09/12/2004, 11:42 AM

Nah....it's off-season. Time to give even the small-minded, rudderless, Roddy's baby a break for a few weeks.... :D :D

Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment :D :D

KOH

joeSoap

09/12/2004, 11:47 AM

joeSoap

09/12/2004, 11:51 AM

Anyway, saw a poll as to a 'world XI' lately - the only English player that really cuts the ice on present form seems to be Ashley Cole, although he is lucky in the sheer absence of good left backs around, Udinese's Jankulovski being the only other candidate...
I'd still play old Bob Charles from Real Madrid on my world team ahead of Cole. I actually think Wayne Bridge is a better left full than him and should be the England left full.The Argie lad Heinze playing with United is pretty good too.

Karlos

09/12/2004, 11:56 AM

I'll form my opinions on the basis of what I see, particularly in the latter stages of major tournaments and the Champions League.

sorry where exactly I am getting confused with what you said here?

All the players I have mentioned have performed well in the latter stages of major tournaments and the champions league and on that basis you say you form your opinions about players - you don't consider league form according to your statement above! If you were to form your basis on what you saw from these players I mentioned then you would be calling them 'world class' for their undoubtedly brilliant performances in the big games i have mentioned and regardless of their league & cup performances. With Gerrard you are suggesting that you don't feel he's not done it on the big stage and that his league performances don't count so he is not World Class.

Sorry but when has Wayne Rooney, Christiano Ronaldo, or Damien Duff performed at a higher level than steven Gerrard in the latter stages (where you form your opinions!) of either major tournaments or the champions league. Ronaldo didn't deliver for Portugal or Utd in the latter stages of eEuro 2004 or against Porto in the CL, Rooney only managed performances against Croatia & Switzerland and as of yet unproven in the CL, Duff had one good game in the latter part of either the C.L or the World Cup and that was against Spain in '02, failed to deliver Vs. Arsenal or Monaco last year -

Kingdom

09/12/2004, 11:58 AM

He could bring in 3 quality players on the shedload of dosh he gets from selling that tosser.

We were talking about it here yesterday before the match after we read and heard what that little boll*x said. He should be offloaded now. Behind all the scenes of jubilation after his goal last night there will be a lot of reds asking themselves: "Is he worth hanging onto now?". Giles was spot on last night in his analysis. He would be better off just letting his work on the pitch do talking rather than his mouth. The team will be better with him in it.

This will be a different situation to the Owen case. Gerrard has 4 yrs on his contract so he will be going nowhere unless the offer is substantial. So how about this.

Duff , Parker + �6m + Gerrard.

Pie in the sky I know but it would be sweet. Regardless of whether it is a straight cash for player deal or an exchange, there will be adequate replacements for him available to buy at the end of the season.
Gerrard's comments won't have impressed Benitez and he was reknowned for having a steady ship with very few ego's at Valencia so i see no reason for him to have any dufference at Anfield.

Karlos

09/12/2004, 12:01 PM

the only English player that really cuts the ice on present form seems to be Ashley Cole, although he is lucky in the sheer absence of good left backs around,.

spoken like a true manc - he's only the best becuase nobody around is better than him!!!! mmmmm, so he's lucky that noone is better than him, interesting!! Also Pele was very lucky there wasn't anyone better than him around at the time and thankfully we didn't have a midfielder as good as Keane or he wouldn't have been the best either!!!! Earth to Conor, come in!

Karlos

09/12/2004, 12:12 PM

I think we'll have to agree to differ. I just think Gerrard's record in Euro 2004, as with other major tournaments, was poor. In fact he was very poor. If you're saying Rooney or Ronaldo were equally bad, or that Duff was as bad in the World Cup, then I simply cannot agree with you.

if we are talking about overall performances in tournaments then I agree with you but you specifically stated his performances in the LATTER stages of European Football or Tournamants was not as good as those mentioned above - none of the above delivered in the latter stages of ALL the tournaments they have been in. It's a fact that world class players don't and cannot always deliver - Duff did against Spain but didn't in the CL, Ronaldo didn't in either (still in A. Cole's pocket from euro 2004) and certainly not against Porto in the last 16, and Rooney goals against poor opposition in the group stages.

I just think if you want to apply this logic to defining world class players then it has to apply to all - Ryan Giggs for example is without doubt World Class in my opinion without having never really performed on the international stage or at a major international tournament and who is the say that if he did, he might just have an off tournament as can happen - would that mean he's not world class anymore?? I just don't get the logic.

Karlos

09/12/2004, 12:15 PM

Well, you are the person who sticks Pele in a thread about Steven Gerrard...

my apologies and i thought it was you who brought ashley cole and Jankulovski into the conversation!!!

never learn.

Karlos

09/12/2004, 12:29 PM

???

I was making the point that Gerrard is hardly good enough to be in the same thread as Pele.

Yes and I was using Pele as a far-out example of how idiotic it is to suggest that someone is lucky to be the best because no-one is better than him at the moment. I thank you.

p.s agree on Giggs, definetly world class in my opinion and yes he does have a champions league medal but then again so does Steve mcManaman, Nicolas Anelka, Paul Lambert etc etc. Even Stefane Guiv'arch (apolgies for the spelling) has a world cup winners medal. Not an indication of world class talent in itself but in the case of Giggs I do agree.

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 12:45 PM

Huge minority? Dont think so. He has ability no doubt but is it really something to be the driving force of that team?

"Pick of any team in the world" Havent heard any top class Spanish or Italian clubs coming for him yet.

Guy is an absolute **** to say what he said before the game though. Olympiacos were a disgrace in the second half.

KOH
__________________

You speak of Liverpool as if they were some 2nd division also rans. They are a top 5 English team who have just qualified for the last 16 of the Champions League so yes, I think it is something to be the driving force of a team like that.

The reason you haven't heard any top Spanish or Italian teams coming in for him is because he's never officially been for sale and Liverpool, like most clubs, won't comment on transfer rumours so you'd never really know until it happens anyway.

I suspect at a price of �30m only Chelsea and Madrid (both confirmed admires btw) would be able to afford him but I'm in no doubt that the likes of Milan, Juve, Barca etc would love to have him if they could.

Put it this way, if it came to a Michael Owen situation where he had a year left on his contract and wasn't keen to sign another, I think you'd get every top club in Europe chasing him for half that price.

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 12:52 PM

I dunno where you get your majority, but is it the same majority in the world that thinks David Backham is a footballing God?

I get my majority from the general consensus and from what I can see before my eyes.
As I've said, it's common knowledge that Chelsea and Madrid would have him in a heartbeat. Again, says it all really, they'll have more of an idea than you or I ever will.

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 12:55 PM

I might agree with you now, now that you've moved so far from the original one about every club being after him...

Ahh the old selective quoting eh :rolleyes:

I haven't moved at all, look at my original post on the first page.

I said that "he could take his pick from any club that could afford him"

Where have I wavered like?????? :confused:

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 1:19 PM

I'm interested in where you get this consensus thing, sort of like the mysterious majority and minority ealrier in the thread.

Conor, without going into details, I'm involved a lot with football and my "majority" comes from football people who like I said, have a lot more involvment and knowledge than you are I.

Everybody I speak to or have dealt with thinks he's a fantastic player who WILL end up moving.

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 1:26 PM

Is completely different from saying 'if he had little time on his contract, and wanted to leave the club, and was going to leave, in those circumstances other clubs would be after him'.

It is the difference between getting Gerrad for 30m or for 3m. I too think a lot of clubs would be interested in getting him at a knock down price, like the Owen situation referred to by you.

I was only using that as an example about his contract, like I said, he could take his pick of clubs that can afford him (whether it's 30m or 10m) but everyclub would want him.

A lot of clubs wouldn't be interested in him just because it's a knock down price, it's because he's a great player. If Milan can only afford 7m but can't afford �30m does that mean they don't think he's a great player and that they wouldn't have him in a flash....

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 1:34 PM

Again, I never said he was a bad player, but simply not in my opinion world class. Now, you may know everyone in football, but world class is not some popularity poll, but opinion and of course subjective. So even if everyone from Rodney Marsh right through to Andy Gray says he's world class, I wouldn't necessarily agree.

Conor, you are entitled to your opinion as we all are.
My point was that people more in the know than us seem to think he is all that.

I don't think I deserve the patronising "you may know everyone in football" line, I certainly don't and didn't say that I did and the ones I do are hardly in the top echelons of football. I was merely using it to make a point that people involved in football seem to rate him and they are the one's that ultimately count.

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 1:47 PM

No, but it means they think he's worth 7m but not worth breaking the bank.

If Milan wouldn't pay 30m, it doesn't say that much for their opinion. They were happy to part with 14m for Robbie after all...and that was way back when 14m was worth something...

Or it might mean they don't have �30m? But surely as my point has been all along if they were prepared to pay say �10m,�15m or �30m, then they feel he's a player worth having...whoever could afford him and all that.

NY Hoop

09/12/2004, 1:57 PM

Everybody I speak to or have dealt with thinks he's a fantastic player who WILL end up moving.[/QUOTE]

Ah well then :eek: :D

KOH

joeSoap

09/12/2004, 1:59 PM

NY Hoop

09/12/2004, 2:03 PM

NY Hoop, Much better than actually agreeing with each other, this arguing just for the sake of it thing, isn't it?? :D
How many EL players went to play for Liverpool, does anyone know. I knew a player called Paul O'Donnell from Limerick that went over about 10 years ago and actually played in one league cup game, having spent a season in the reserves. This amazes me becaiuse now he's not even 30 and can't make the Fairview Rangers junior side in the Limerick Junior Leagues...

You sound like my aul one!! Jesus are you?!! :D :D

Anyway remember Paul O'Donnell from the mists of time. Sounds like an interesting story.

Jim Beglin left Rovers for liverpool in 83.

Future Hoop legend Tony Cousins left Dundalk (who wouldnt?!!) in 1990 spending 2.5 fruitless years there. Remember well rtengland had liverpool v southampton on live one saturday afternoon and that idiot souness wouldnt bring Cousins on. That's how close he came.

KOH

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 2:13 PM

Ah well then :eek: :D

KOH

That hurts soooo much. That's a fantastic argument there mate. Anthing else out of that wonderful intellect you'd care to add to the debate? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

joeSoap

09/12/2004, 2:15 PM

You sound like my aul one!! Jesus are you?!! :D :D
No way....I'd have put you in a black bag with some rocks and went to the ha'penny bridge if that was so :D

Jim Beglin left Rovers for liverpool in 83.

Lucky Rovers...hope ye got money for him, and hope that he didn't talk with that west-brit brogue he uses on TV.

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 2:16 PM

Karlos

09/12/2004, 2:25 PM

To me, World-Class meansthat he is so good that he would automatically walk on to any team on this earth. With Gerrard, that is not so;
Man Utd: Ronaldo, Keane, Scholes, Giggs.
Arsenal: Pires, Vieira, Ljungberg, Fabergas, Gilberto Silva.
Real Madrid: Figo, Guti, Beckham, Zidane
Chelsea: Robben, Lampard, Tiago, Makelele, Duff.
Barcelona: Xavi, Ronaldinho, Deco, Van Bronckhorst
Milan: Gattuso, Pirlo, Seedorf, Kaka

Joe, I take your point on the quality of these midfields. Some of the players however you mentioned here also don't play on a regular basis in midfield for their team. It is the nature of modern football to rest and rotate players. in my opinion some of these players would play even less in midfield if Gerrard signed for any of these clubs.

Take my own club, Arsenal, if we were to sign Gerrard, fabregas (curently deputising for Gilberto/Edu) wouldn't play on a regular basis if the option of Gerrard was there. In one way I'm glad we don't have him as we have saved a lot of money by nurturing Fabregas along the way.

In Barca, Gio Van B. cannot get a game in midfield and plays at left back where he may be edged out by another former gooner silvinho. Ronaldinho and Deco are often used not as midfield men but as the 2nd striker behind E'too and this is even more likely since the injury to Larrson. Giuly is also at the club and would think Gerrard would be every bit as good as him

At Real, Guti is by no means a regular and falls into the same type of bracket as Solari - a squad player. I think gerrard would jump above both of them if they had him available in my opinion.

At Milan, Pirlo is often deployed as a second striker, as is Kaka - I think Seedorf is a great player but Gerrard would undoubtedly push him close for the position on the right or in the centre.

Tiago doesn't always start at Chelsea and Makelele has yet to produce his Real form at Chelsea, he is also 31 and possibly not many years left compared to Gerrard. They are defiently interested in him since they made public their attempts to sign.

All quality midfields and all midfields where I feel Gerrard wouldn't be out of place. It's great compliment to Gerrard that he has rose to prominence in Liverpool and England midfields at a time when both do not have midfields like they did in the past.

noby

09/12/2004, 2:25 PM

This is your opinion JS.

Gordon Bennett!
After spending an afternoon argueing with Conor over his opinion, you just accept his. You must be getting tired or something

NY Hoop

09/12/2004, 2:36 PM

That hurts soooo much. That's a fantastic argument there mate. Anthing else out of that wonderful intellect you'd care to add to the debate? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

Presume you saw the smilie?!

Sense of humour: None obviously and I'm not your "mate".

Wonderful intellect? From someone who thinks gerrard is better than traitor :eek:

Come back when you know something about the game not when your buddies tell you he's a "fantastic" player........

KOH

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 2:42 PM

Gordon Bennett!
After spending an afternoon argueing with Conor over his opinion, you just accept his. You must be getting tired or something

Me and Conor always end up agreeing to disagree :D :D I am getting a bit tired of it now :D

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 2:46 PM

Presume you saw the smilie?!

Sense of humour: None obviously and I'm not your "mate".

Wonderful intellect? From someone who thinks gerrard is better than traitor :eek:

Come back when you know something about the game not when your buddies tell you he's a "fantastic" player........

KOH

Now I'm not going to get into a debate with you too NY. I didn't realise you were only messing (brains a bit scattered from arguing with Conor all day) so I will apologise for the rant.

And I will accept your rant in retaliation to mine without biting back!

Who's traitor by the way?

NY Hoop

09/12/2004, 2:54 PM

Now I'm not going to get into a debate with you too NY. I didn't realise you were only messing (brains a bit scattered from arguing with Conor all day) so I will apologise for the rant.

And I will accept your rant in retaliation to mine without biting back!

Who's traitor by the way?

Thats the spirit! :D

You're getting the hang of this internet thing Fr Jack!!

Traitor?! Take a wild guess!

KOH

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 3:12 PM

Oh yes! Well that's a debate for another day! ;)

drinkfeckarse

09/12/2004, 3:28 PM

I didn't know you could catch the patronising bug throuhg the www!!

Aw come on, surely that's a direct hit for me and a clincher in this whole argument...come on...it must be...

Fair enough, you got me....I was getting a bit tired and cranky :D :D

razor

09/12/2004, 3:30 PM

Just to get back to the original point of the post.
As a Pool fan I don't think Gerrards heart is at Liverpool anymore and think he will go at the end of the season.
Didn't see his tackles last night but I know what he is capable of and he got lucky. You need a bit of luck in football.

Surely the term "World Class" is relative.
We all have our own ideas/criteria as to what makes a player World class and no 2 people will ever agree on all players.

as for wages to IQ ratio, its Rio for me every time (but maybe i'm biased ;) )