Potentially eligible players thread

[DeLorean]

Well it's just over an hour since I asked the question, so I'd imagine he's still typing. :D

[tetsujin1979]

I thought you could switch twice? Like say Patrick Bamford played for us, then England, but is still eligible to switch back to us?

I could be wrong, but Bamford didn't play a competitive international for us at underage level, so that probably comes into play? McGuane (or Agyei-Tabi as he was known at the time) played for us in the 2015 Under 17 UEFA Championships, and has played competitive games for England's underage sides.
Ironically enough, he played against England in the tournament: http://www.fai.ie/ireland/match/23/2015/2016450

[DannyInvincible]

I thought you could switch twice? Like say Patrick Bamford played for us, then England, but is still eligible to switch back to us?

No, you can only (formally/officially) switch once. See article 8 on pages 71-72 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes which governs the procedure: http://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/02/78/29/07/fifastatutsweben_neutral.pdf#page=73

McGuane is now irreversibly tied to England as he played for us competitively and his request to switch from the FAI to the FA was processed and formally approved by FIFA. If he hadn't made a formal request to switch that was approved by FIFA, however, and played for England in some non-competitive under-age games (not administered by FIFA), he'd still be available to "come back" to us.

When competitive games for an association have preceded a formal switch request, you can only switch once. If only friendlies are involved, however, it's possible for players to "switch" back and forth as they wish; friendly games are not administered by FIFA so the eligibility regulations don't apply. When I say "switch" in this latter context of moving back and forth, it's not a formal or official switch and doesn't entail FIFA's Players' Status Committee processing any player request.

[DannyInvincible]

Just on Bamford; tets is correct. Bamford's solitary appearance for us was at under-18 level, but it was not competitive, as far as I know. As far as FIFA are concerned, this game may as well not exist for eligibility purposes. He has played competitively for England though at under-age level, so if he wishes to play competitively for us in future, he'll first have to lodge an official request with FIFA and have that approved.

Some further info on the nature of the switch process here: http://foot.ie/threads/119079-Potentially-eligible-players-thread?p=1853654&viewfull=1#post1853654

We (in the eligibility thread) thought (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1806009&viewfull=1#post1806009) that playing in a competitive fixture for a second association after having played competitively (at under-age) for an original association was what effected a switch or tied a player to his new association, but I understand now that this most likely isn't correct (http://foot.ie/threads/119079-Potentially-eligible-players-thread?p=1874677&viewfull=1#post1874677). I used to think a player might still be able to change his mind and return to play competitively for his original association after having had a switch-request to FIFA approved, so long as he hadn't already played competitively for his once-intended new association.

My thinking now, however, is that once the request to switch is made and processed, a player is tied to his new association, even if he never plays competitively for them. This would be in line with the literal wording of the relevant regulation - that being article 8.1, which states that a player "may, only once, request to change the association for which he is eligible to play international matches" - and would also appear to be confirmed by words from FAI sources quoted or paraphrased in the media in relation to Grealish and McGuane after they made their requests.

[DeLorean]

It would be interesting if Bamford could return to his Championship POTY form. I still think he'd be very interested in declaring for us but his form doesn't merit the discussion at the moment. He's lost a couple of valuable years through career choices which haven't worked out for him.

[dr_peepee]

Seen this on F365

"Kyle Naughton (Swansea): The international ship has probably sailed for the 28-year-old ex-Under-21. Unless Republic of Ireland come calling."

Is there still potential?

[CraftyToePoke]

Is there still potential?

Who knows, there is a window on these things where they can be credible however at 28 its more in the opportunist pi*stake zone for me.

In terms of potential I would be more interested if seeing if Matt Doherty could fulfill his on the international stage than Naughton, lots younger and remains a key part of the Wolves side despite heavy the spending there. He should have been playing for us long ago IMO.

[IsMiseSean]

Sky commentator on the Armenia vs Poland game just said James Tarkowski is qualified to play for England, Ireland & Poland.
Anyone know more?

[Olé Olé]

Wiki says England and Poland. That his paternal granny was only of Irish descent.

[DannyInvincible]

Sky commentator on the Armenia vs Poland game just said James Tarkowski is qualified to play for England, Ireland & Poland.
Anyone know more?

Tarkowski was born and bred in Manchester. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tarkowski):


Tarkowski's paternal grandfather left Poland for England after the Second World War, and married a woman of Irish descent. Tarkowski is therefore eligible for both the English and Polish national teams.

Assuming the info is correct, the Irish connection is probably too distant if his grandmother was only of Irish descent.

[IsMiseSean]

Shame, he would have been a good addition if we got him on board.

[CraftyToePoke]

Young lad at Leicester Conor Tee - http://www.mayonews.ie/sports/30906-tee-s-time-to-shine-at-leicester-city
Eligible and willing by the looks of it.

[Olé Olé]

Interesting. Best of luck to him. Bad timing for him given how well our under 19s are going.

Bad statement by the uncle though- I'm sure his mother lived in Ireland long enough to acquire citizenship. That's the kind of statement that would deter Tee's own kids of playing for Ireland!

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting. Best of luck to him. Bad timing for him given how well our under 19s are going.

Bad statement by the uncle though- I'm sure his mother lived in Ireland long enough to acquire citizenship. That's the kind of statement that would deter Tee's own kids of playing for Ireland!

The uncle's statement is technically correct. He's quoted as saying:


"He wants to play for Ireland and the Leicester Under 18 manager has been in contact with the FAI. If he was to play, he would actually qualify through his granny as Maureen [his mother] was born in England before we moved home not long after."

Tee's mother is an automatic Irish national from birth on account of the fact that she was born to Irish citizens who were born in Ireland - I don't think the uncle is denying that - but as she herself was not born in Ireland, Tee's birth would have to be registered in the Foreign Births Register for him to acquire Irish citizenship. The article 7 criteria would apply to him then as he isn't a national from birth and the only criterion he satisfies is 7(c), relating to grandparentage from the territory of the relevant association.

If Tee has kids in the future, the only way they'd be eligible to play for Ireland (under present regulations and assuming his partner/the mother wouldn't be an Irish national who was born in Ireland) would be if the kids are born in Ireland or acquire Irish citizenship whilst having also lived in Ireland for five years (ordinarily after the age of 18).

[Stuttgart88]

Teo is limited but will be in good company (think about it)

[Olé Olé]

The uncle's statement is technically correct. He's quoted as saying:


"He wants to play for Ireland and the Leicester Under 18 manager has been in contact with the FAI. If he was to play, he would actually qualify through his granny as Maureen [his mother] was born in England before we moved home not long after."

Tee's mother is an automatic Irish national from birth on account of the fact that she was born to Irish citizens who were born in Ireland - I don't think the uncle is denying that - but as she herself was not born in Ireland, Tee's birth would have to be registered in the Foreign Births Register for him to acquire Irish citizenship. The article 7 criteria would apply to him then as he isn't a national from birth and the only criterion he satisfies is 7(c), relating to grandparentage from the territory of the relevant association.

If Tee has kids in the future, the only way they'd be eligible to play for Ireland (under present regulations and assuming his partner/the mother wouldn't be an Irish national who was born in Ireland) would be if the kids are born in Ireland or acquire Irish citizenship whilst having also lived in Ireland for five years (ordinarily after the age of 18).

I was absolutely convinced that because his mother was an Irish national by virtue of having lived in Ireland for the extended period of time then he qualified through her. So, to clarify what you're saying, if someone like Noe Baba were to have a son whilst he's in England, that son wouldn't clarify for Ireland because Baba wasn't born here?

[BonnieShels]

Teo is limited but will be in good company (think about it)

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/orson_wells_Slow-Clap.gif

[DannyInvincible]

I was absolutely convinced that because his mother was an Irish national by virtue of having lived in Ireland for the extended period of time then he qualified through her.

As we know, in order to play for Ireland a player must first be an Irish national. If the player is an Irish national from birth (by virtue of having been born in Ireland to an Irish national or having been born outside Ireland to an Irish national who was born in Ireland), they satisfy article 5 of FIFA's eligibility regulations. However, if they're a naturalised Irish national or an Irish national who has acquired Irish nationality after birth, they must further satisfy one of the criteria outlined in article 7 (i.e. either: having been born in Ireland, having a parent who was born in Ireland, having a grandparent who was born in Ireland or having been resident in Ireland for five years after the age of 18, although the FIFA Players' Status Committee has granted exceptions in place of a strict application of the fourth criterion when a strict application can be demonstrated to be prejudicing the footballing career of a player who has lived in the relevant territory for five years from any age (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805274&viewfull=1#post1805274)).

Tee's mother will have been an Irish national from birth, despite her birth in England, because she was born of Irish nationals who were born in Ireland. The process by which Tee (who won't have been an Irish national from birth) was able to become an Irish citizen (assuming he has done so already), however, is outlined here (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html#l0 91af) on the Citizens' Information website. It states:


"If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was born outside Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen.

If your parent derived Irish citizenship in another manner, for example, through marriage, adoption or naturalisation, and was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, you can become an Irish citizen.

If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was deceased at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen. Also, you derive citizenship through an Irish parent whether or not your parents were married to each other at the time of your birth.

Claiming Irish citizenship: Before you can claim Irish citizenship, you must have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register.... If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration – not from the date when you were born.

...

If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, but neither of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register...."


So, to clarify what you're saying, if someone like Noe Baba were to have a son whilst he's in England, that son wouldn't clarify for Ireland because Baba wasn't born here?

The hypothetical son wouldn't be an Irish national from birth, although (as outlined in the quoted Citizens' Information segment above) he would be entitled to apply for and acquire Irish citizenship via the registration of his birth on the Foreign Births Register. Nevertheless, I'm not sure how he would qualify to play football for Ireland if he doesn't satisfy one of the article 7 criteria. It's an interesting question and not one I'd really thought of until now.

[Stuttgart88]

Me
- Irish national born in UK to Irish born Irish national parents
- Raised in Ireland

My kids
- Born in UK to non-Irish born Irish national parent
- Raised in UK

So my kids qualify only since acquiring citizenship via the FBR but not at birth and they also qualify via Art 7 (grandparent). In fact art 7 is a mandatory condition, but mutually dependent on FBR eligibility anyway. Yeah?

FBR process was a pain in the **** I can tell you.

[BonnieShels]

Me
- Irish national born in UK to Irish born Irish national parents
- Raised in Ireland

My kids
- Born in UK to non-Irish born Irish national parent
- Raised in UK

So my kids qualify only since acquiring citizenship via the FBR but not at birth and they also qualify via Art 7 (grandparent). In fact art 7 is a mandatory condition, but mutually dependent on FBR eligibility anyway. Yeah?

FBR process was a pain in the **** I can tell you.

And yet only one of them passes the gut test...

[Stuttgart88]

I walked into that.

[geysir]

As we know, in order to play for Ireland a player must first be an Irish national. If the player is an Irish national from birth (by virtue of having been born in Ireland to an Irish national or having been born outside Ireland to an Irish national who was born in Ireland), they satisfy article 5 of FIFA's eligibility regulations. However, if they're a naturalised Irish national or an Irish national who has acquired Irish nationality after birth, they must further satisfy one of the criteria outlined in article 7 (i.e. either: having been born in Ireland, having a parent who was born in Ireland, having a grandparent who was born in Ireland or having been resident in Ireland for five years after the age of 18, although the FIFA Players' Status Committee has granted exceptions in place of a strict application of the fourth criterion when a strict application can be demonstrated to be prejudicing the footballing career of a player who has lived in the relevant territory for five years from any age (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805274&viewfull=1#post1805274)).
...

If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, but neither of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register...."




The hypothetical son wouldn't be an Irish national from birth, although (as outlined above) he would be entitled to apply for and acquire Irish citizenship via the registration of his birth on the Foreign Births Register. Nevertheless, I'm not sure how he would qualify to play football for Ireland if he doesn't satisfy one of the article 7 criteria. It's an interesting question and not one I'd really thought of until now.
Assuming Noe settles down somewhere outside Ireland.
I'd say Noe's kids could well qualify under art 5.
"Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the association of that country. "

That example you gave (in that link), Breel Embelo, he was born in Cameroon to Cameroon citizens, who later emigrated to Switzerland. However, that is not the same situation that Noe's kids would face. His children would be born to an Irish citizen.
The birth of Noe's kids would have to be registered (FBR) but the kids do not have to reside in Ireland in order to acquire that Irish nationality.

[DannyInvincible]

Me
- Irish national born in UK to Irish born Irish national parents
- Raised in Ireland

My kids
- Born in UK to non-Irish born Irish national parent
- Raised in UK

So my kids qualify only since acquiring citizenship via the FBR but not at birth and they also qualify via Art 7 (grandparent). In fact art 7 is a mandatory condition, but mutually dependent on FBR eligibility anyway. Yeah?

That's pretty much spot on, aye. Registration on the FBR is just the means of acquiring Irish citizenship. The mechanism is primarily a concern of the Irish government (seeing as they oversee it) rather than FIFA. It's only significant to FIFA (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805272&viewfull=1#post1805272) in terms of determining whether it renders a subject an Irish citizen from birth or post-birth, so FIFA's eligibility regulations can then be applied to the Irish citizen to test if they're eligible to play for the FAI; if they've been a citizen from birth, only article 5 applies, but if they've acquired citizenship post-birth (such as via registration on the FBR), they must further satisfy one of the criteria in article 7.


FBR process was a pain in the **** I can tell you.

Just looking at what's required, it does seem like a complete ball-ache: https://www.dfa.ie/passports-citizenship/citizenship/born-abroad/registering-a-foreign-birth/

Fair play for going through that (twice?).

[geysir]

Once one reads and understand Article 8, then Article 7 is more understandable.
It's a direct contradiction to interpret that Noe's boy (Noe Junior) could not play for Ireland without satisfying 5 years residency as stipulated by article 7, but yet could declare for Ireland without any problem under article 8.

It's clear that the purpose of article 7 is to prevent the easy acquisition (for a senior player) of the right to declare for another country, via acquiring their nationality and secondly it's to prevent the exploitation of minors. In practice, the criteria in article 7 is not used against bona fide dual nationals (as Sepp would call them). Imo Noe's children would be bona fide dual nationals.

In regards to minors acquiring a new nationality and their application to play for that new country, undir article 7 FIFA can accept the new nationality of children born to refugees and even immigrants merely in search of a better life.
But proof of such needs to be supplied to FIFA in order for them to be convinced that the young footballer was not 'imported' as a young minor in order to exploit their football talent.

A dual national like Noe Junior, born in England to an Irish citizen, could be selected and play for Ireland. He does not need to satisfy Article 7 criteria. He does not need residence requirements in order to acquire his Irish nationality. He has a birth right to dual nationality, a nationality which is activated after the foreign birth is registered . Noe Junior then presents his irish passport to the uefa match official as evidence.

Should Noe Junior first play for England underage at a competitive level, being a dual national he can still declare for Ireland under the auspices of article 8, as long as he was an Irish national before he played for England in an official (underage) competition.
I even doubt that part in bold is strictly applied by FIFA, but it's just a doubt.

[DannyInvincible]

Assuming Noe settles down somewhere outside Ireland.
I'd say Noe's kids could well qualify under art 5.
"Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the association of that country. "

That example you gave (in that link), Breel Embelo, he was born in Cameroon to Cameroon citizens, who later emigrated to Switzerland. However, that is not the same situation that Noe's kids would face. His children would be born to an Irish citizen.
The birth of Noe's kids would have to be registered (FBR) but the kids do not have to reside in Ireland in order to acquire that Irish nationality.

But the citizenship of Noe Baba's hypothetical kids will have been acquired after their birth (not from their birth) so surely article 7 also comes into effect, as outlined below:


Article 5 of the FIFA Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes (Principle)

Notion of permanent nationality

Yann first clarified that "permanent nationality not dependent on residence" can refer to both nationality from birth (automatic) and nationality acquired via familial inheritance or a naturalisation mechanism. Article 5.1 is specifically worded the way it is to distinguish from temporary nationality dependent on residence and to preclude the latter form of nationality from rendering players eligible to play for international teams. He said that the mention of "residence" in this article has nothing to do with the fact that most states require an applicant to reside on their soil before naturalisation, nor does it mean that naturalisations cannot be considered permanent and not dependent on residence; it's referring to something else. 

To provide an example of a temporary nationality (dependent on residence), he mentioned the Vatican Swiss Guards who receive the Vatican nationality during their stay in Rome but lose it when they leave. So, as I was saying, naturalisations can and do fall under the "permanent nationality not dependent on residence" umbrella too (unless they're temporary and/or dependent on residence for a temporary duration whilst the holder resides in the relevant state), but obviously further invoke article 7 as they will, by their nature, amount to the acquisition of a new nationality not automatic from birth. (Article 7 is invoked when a permanent nationality not dependent on residence is newly acquired at any age post-birth and secondary to an already-held birth nationality or birth nationalities.)

There is further info on the distinction and confirmation of this meaning of the reference to "residence" here: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/circular_1093_en_33447.pdf

The link to the post mentioning the case of Embolo (a naturalised Swiss citizen) was only to provide background information on the FIFA PSC exemption process in respect of article 7(d). I wasn't suggesting Embolo's case was relevant to the cases of Tee (an Irish citizen post-birth via registration of his birth on the FBR on account of an Irish citizen parent and/or Irisg citizen grandparentage born in Ireland) or Baba's hypothetical kids (Irish citizens post-birth via registration of their births on the FBR on account of a naturalised Irish citizen parent).

[geysir]

As I wrote, the conditions of article 8 and FIFA practice proves my interpretation.
I don't see any precedent to support your opinion Danny.

Just because Noe Junior has to have his birth registered, does not make him ineligible to represent Ireland unless he satisfies article 7 conditions.
One his birth is registered he would be activating his birthright and become a bona fide dual national, not acquiring a new nationality.
Article 7 is aimed at restricting players ability to exploit loopholes and declare for a new country that they previously had no connection with.

[DannyInvincible]

Once one reads and understand Article 8, then Article 7 is more understandable.
It's a direct contradiction to interpret that Noe's boy (Noe Junior) could not play for Ireland without satisfying 5 years residency as stipulated by article 7, but yet could declare for Ireland without any problem under article 8.

Who's saying he could declare for Ireland without any problem under article 8 though? Taking all of the eligibility regulations into consideration, I don't think he'd be eligible at all to declare for Ireland.


It's clear that the purpose of article 7 is to prevent the easy acquisition (for a senior player) of the right to declare for another country, via acquiring their nationality and secondly it's to prevent the exploitation of minors. In practice, the criteria in article 7 is not used against bona fide dual nationals (as Sepp would call them). Imo Noe's children would be bona fide dual nationals.

I agree that the purpose of article 7 is to ensure or prove, as far as FIFA are concerned, that there is a "clear connection (http://www.fifa.com/media/news/y=2004/m=3/news=players-seeking-naturalisation-with-clear-connection-country-ineligibl-91082.html)"/"genuine link (http://www.centrostudisport.it/PDF/TAS_CAS_ULTIMO/60.pdf#page=20)" between a player who has newly acquired a nationality and his adopted nation or the nation of which he is now a member. I don't necessarily see why Baba's hypothetical kids would be regarded by FIFA as having a clear connection though. I don't think it's self-evident, even if it might seem intuitive.

(For what it's worth, nationality from birth is already deemed to constitute a manifestation of a genuine connection. I'm just emphasising that point whilst I'm on the topic as you often find NI fans claiming northern-born Irish players like James McClean have no genuine connection to the FAI due to the fact these players don't have a familial territorial connection to the 26 counties, as if their birth nationality was somehow meaningless.)


A dual national like Noe Junior, born in England to an Irish citizen, could be selected and play for Ireland. He does not need to satisfy Article 7 criteria. He does not need residence requirements in order to acquire his Irish nationality. He has a birth right to dual nationality, a nationality which is activated after the foreign birth is registered . Noe Junior then presents his irish passport to the uefa match official as evidence.

There are other criteria besides residence requirements in article 7 though. Why would Baba's hypothetical kid be exempt? Are you arguing that all players who activate Irish nationality via registration of their birth in the FBR on account of an Irish national parent born outside Ireland or an Irish national grandparent born in Ireland are exempt from the application of article 7?

Wouldn't such a contention contradict your view - expressed previously on the forum - that players such as Alex Bruce and Adam Barton, who would have activated their birth-right (to use your terminology) to Irish nationality - on account of a northern-born grandparent - upon registration of their births in the FBR, qualify to play for Ireland by virtue of satisfying article 7(c) because FIFA apply a purposive approach to the interpretation of that rule in relation to such players that construes the entire island of island to be the "territory" of the FAI?

If it's not your contention, why the seeming distinction between Baba's hypothetical son and Bruce or Barton in terms of the respective eligibility articles through which they allegedly qualify - that being article 5 alone for Baba's hypothetical son, supposedly, but article 7 for Bruce and Barton - despite the fact they all would have had their births registered on the FBR in order to acquire Irish nationality (effective from the date of registration)?


Should Noe Junior first play for England underage at a competitive level, being a dual national he can still declare for Ireland under the auspices of article 8, as long as he was an Irish national before he played for England in an official (underage) competition.

True, but simply being an Irish national doesn't cut it. There are additional criteria that must be satisfied for those who, in the eyes of FIFA, have acquired their nationality after birth. Irish nationality via registration on the FBR is deemed effective (by the Irish government) from the date of registration, so I don't see any reason why FIFA would view things differently.


I even doubt that part in bold is strictly applied by FIFA, I have my suspicions that Ciaran Clark had not activated his Irish nationality before he played for England underage., but it's just a doubt.

Ciaran Clark is an Irish national from birth. His mother Peggy is from Drumshambo in Leitrim (http://foot.ie/threads/141218-Ciaran-Clark?p=1405798&viewfull=1#post1405798).


As I wrote, the conditions of article 8 and FIFA practice proves my interpretation.
I don't see any precedent to support your opinion Danny.

I don't fully grasp why article 8 is supposed to be relevant here, nor do I see how it proves your interpretation.

Which practice of FIFA proves your interpretation? I'm not aware of any precedent that practically proves this matter one way or the other, as I'm not aware of any case of a player who would share the same circumstances as Baba's hypothetical kids. In the absence of an analogous precedent, we can surely only speculate or theorise based on our interpretation of the regulations in question and the insight of an academic in the field of sporting eligibility.

Article 8 (http://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/02/58/14/48/2015fifastatutesen_neutral.pdf#page=67) expressly acknowledges that a player may make a request to change association "[i]f [that] Player has more than one nationality, or if [that] Player acquires a new nationality, or if [that] Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality". The conditions in article 8 are therefore subject to satisfaction of the relevant criteria relating to these distinctions in status outlined in the three preceding articles relating to eligibility.


Just because Noe Junior has to have his birth registered, does not make him ineligible to represent Ireland unless he satisfies article 7 conditions.
One his birth is registered he would be activating his birthright and become a bona fide dual national, not acquiring a new nationality.
Article 7 is aimed at restricting players ability to exploit loopholes and declare for a new country that they previously had no connection with.

If that interpretation was correct, then you're saying players like Tee (who, via registration, is essentially activating a birth-right) or Scott Hogan, just to use another recent example, qualify to play for Ireland via article 5 alone without the invocation of article 7? That can't be right though, as what would be the point of litterae (a), (b) and (c) in article 7 then? Those litterae all relate to nationality inherited by birth of the subject, a parent or a grandparent, but FIFA clearly still regard such inheritance as a new acquirement, seeing as the title of the article in question is "Acquisition of a new nationality".

Simply enjoying what you refer to as a birth-right (which I understand to be the same thing as what Gerard-René de Groot (http://digitalarchive.maastrichtuniversity.nl/fedora/get/guid:b12fe0e7-4db3-4f7d-9e93-d87d100dfd45/ASSET1) and Yann Hafner refer (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805272&viewfull=1#post1805272) to as "option right" or "right of option") to apply (or register) for a particular nationality doesn't exempt a player from having to satisfy article 7. If that was the case, then you could potentially have, say, fifth or sixth generation Irish nationals being eligible to play for Ireland under article 5 if their nationality was passed on from generation to generation (all subjects born outside Ireland) via FBR registration simply because they enjoyed a birth-right to apply.

[geysir]

Who's saying he could declare for Ireland without any problem under article 8 though? Taking all of the eligibility regulations into consideration, I don't think he'd be eligible at all to declare for Ireland.
You have to show evidence to support your contention that article 8 is not what it says, otherwise a person could rightly claim that you're making up stuff.


Ciaran Clark is an Irish national from birth
I had already edited my post a day before to correct my reference to Ciaran.


I don't know about Scott Hogan or others with a grandparent connection to irish citizenship, who belatedly decide to acquire irish citizenship
Don't they talk about being able to qualify for Irish citizenship due to the Irish grandparent connection? and therefore they can declare for Ireland?
No Irish passport, no play.

I'm claiming that a Noe Junior born abroad to an Irish citizen such as Noe Baba, could use his Irish nationality to be selected at youth level for Ireland and play his way through to the seniors.
And should he have first played for England at underage level, all that he needs is to demonstrate (with evidence) is that he had Irish nationality before he played for England.
In other words, he would have to have activated his Irish citizenship before playing for England.


I don't fully grasp why article 8 is supposed to be relevant here, nor do I see how it proves your interpretation.
Because, according to Article 8, should a Noe Junior have first played for England underage, he could switch his allegiance to Ireland.
And that makes a monkey out of saying Noe Junior could not have first chosen to play for Ireland in the manner I described.



Article 8 (http://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/02/58/14/48/2015fifastatutesen_neutral.pdf#page=67) expressly acknowledges that a player may make a request to change association "[i]f [that] Player has more than one nationality, or if [that] Player acquires a new nationality, or if [that] Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality". The conditions in article 8 are therefore subject to satisfaction of the relevant criteria relating to these distinctions in status outlined in the three preceding articles relating to eligibility.
You are inventing conditions without any evidence.
Article 8.1 does not refer to other articles, it is a separate article of eligibility. It is a complete article of eligibility.
Under article 8, a dual national player can chose to switch to play for the country of his 2nd nationality as long as he was a national of that country before he played for his first country. If a dual national player satisfies that clear condition, he can make the switch.
There is no add on, no addendum, no annex anywhere, to contradict that.
If you claim what is written in the article 8 is not the complete truth, that there are other conditions at play, then you have to provide evidence to prove it.
You just can't make a wild statement and demand that I disprove it :)

[DannyInvincible]

You have to show evidence to support your contention that article 8 is not what it says, otherwise a person could rightly claim that you're making up stuff.

Haha, I'm saying it is what it says. In my opinion, it's you who is saying something contrary to what it says without providing evidence to support your contention.

You have claimed Baba's hypothetical son would be eligible to play for Ireland under article 8. I'm simply saying I don't see how that's possible if he doesn't also satisfy the article 7 criteria (seeing as his FBR-registered Irish nationality will be effective post-birth and article 7 is referenced in article 8).

I'll quote the relevant part of article 8 for convenience:


"8. Change of Association

1.

If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another Country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:


a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an Official Competition at “A” international level for his current Association, and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an Official Competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.

b) He is not permitted to play for his new Association in any competition in which he has already played for his previous Association."

Perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't the highlighted bit there a reference to article 7 (i.e an acknowledgement of its ongoing or continuous applicability when a player wishes to switch association)? If so (and that's what I've been assuming), I would read from it that article 8 does not ignore or disregard article 7; rather, I would read from it that they both operate in tandem and that any player who wishes to make a switch must be eligible for his desired new association under one of the articles 5-7 before being entitled to switch, so long as he also satisfies the criteria in article 8.

Are you contending that a player who wishes to switch association is exempt from the application of articles 5-7 when seeking to have his switch approved under article 8?

If you go back and look at the Daniel Kearns case, the panel outlined the following in respect of article 8 (or what was then article 18) at paragraph 76 (http://www.centrostudisport.it/PDF/TAS_CAS_ULTIMO/60.pdf#page=22):


"[Article 18's] first paragraph begins with the following three sentences: “If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality”. In other words, Article 18 identifies the various categories of individuals who are allowed to change associations notwithstanding the Article 15 par. 2 [now Article 5 par. 2]. In such a context, it is obvious that the first sentence deals with players who have dual (or more) nationality, i.e. are in a situation falling within Article 15 [now Article 5], the third sentence with players who fall under Article 16 [now Article 6] and the second sentence with players who fall under Article 17 [now Article 7]."

Paragraph 82 (http://www.centrostudisport.it/PDF/TAS_CAS_ULTIMO/60.pdf#page=24) (in the section explaining or outlining "[t]he proper construction of the FIFA Regulations regarding the eligibility of players to play in association teams") outlines the following in respect of the same article:


"By way of exception to the general principle set out in Article 15 par. 2, Article 18 authorizes players to operate a switch from one association for which they are eligible under Articles 15 to 17 to another association. It provides that a player with dual (or more) nationality (“If a Player has more than one nationality” – Article 15 par. 1) or with “shared nationality” (“or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality” – Article 16), or players who “acquires a new nationality” (Article 17), may change association on only one occasion subject to the three following requirements:


• “He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for his current Association”.
• “… at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play”.
• “He is not permitted to play for his new Association in any competition in which he has already played for his previous Association”."

Those passages support my contention that article 8 refers back to the previous three articles and contradicts your contention that articles 5-7 are irrelevant when it comes to the processing of a switch under article 8.

Furthermore, CAS judged Kearns, who had switched from the IFA to the FAI after having played competitively for the IFA at under-19 level, eligible to play for the FAI on the basis of his satisfying both articles 5 (then 15) and 8 (then 18) in tandem with one another. The panel stated the following at paragraph 78 (http://www.centrostudisport.it/PDF/TAS_CAS_ULTIMO/60.pdf#page=23):


"[Kearns'] situation, with respect to his Irish nationality, is not governed by Article 16, but by the general principle set forth by Article 15 par. 1 of the said Regulations."

And the following at paragraph 90 (http://www.centrostudisport.it/PDF/TAS_CAS_ULTIMO/60.pdf#page=26):


"In any event, the alleged tacit agreement may not be used to defeat the claim of Mr Kearns, who was of course not a party to any such agreement and who, in any event, is entitled to exercise his rights as provided under Article 15 and 18 of the 2009 Application Regulations."

In my opinion, this again undermines your contention that articles 5-7 are somehow ignored or irrelevant when a player makes a request to switch association under article 8. They can't be irrelevant seeing as article 8 expressly refers back to them.

In my opinion, if Baba's hypothetical son had played for England in his youth, had acquired his Irish citizenship before playing for England and could satisfy article 7 in respect of playing for Ireland (although I don't think his hypothetical circumstances would actually enable that, but let's pretend they do for the sake of argument), then, according to a strict application of the rules, I believe he would then be OK to switch to Ireland. I don't see why he would be exempt from article 7 if he has acquired a new nationality post-birth (seeing as nationality is effective from the date of registration for FBR-registered persons) to complement his birth nationality (which would be British, presumably, considering he was born in England to an Irish citizen with permanent residence status (https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-citizenship)).

[DannyInvincible]

I had already edited my post a day before to correct my reference to Ciaran.

Apologies, I see that. I was working off the original unedited version as I had quoted that at the time and left it open on my laptop to compose a reply as and when I got an opportunity to do so. :)


I don't know about Scott Hogan or others with a grandparent connection to irish citizenship, who belatedly decide to acquire irish citizenship
Don't they talk about being able to qualify for Irish citizenship due to the Irish grandparent connection? and therefore they can declare for Ireland?

They would acquire their Irish citizenship through the very same mechanism as Baba's hypothetical son; via registration on the FBR. To the best of my knowledge, they have to satisfy article 7 to be eligible to represent the FAI. Seeing as Baba's hypothetical son will have acquired his Irish citizenship in the same manner as the likes of Hogan - via FBR-registration - that's why I'm of the opinion that Baba's hypothetical son would also have to satisfy article 7 in order to play for Ireland. (However, he doesn't actually satisfy any of the criteria when they're applied to his hypothetical circumstances.)


I'm claiming that a Noe Junior born abroad to an Irish citizen such as Noe Baba, could use his Irish nationality to be selected at youth level for Ireland and play his way through to the seniors.

Sure; if he was eligible to play for the FAI, that is. But upon what are you basing such an assertion? He isn't an Irish citizen until his birth is registered on the FBR and his citizenship only takes effect from the date of registration. After that, because he has acquired his citizenship after birth, he has to satisfy article 7. However, due to his circumstances, he can't actually fulfil any of the criteria therein; he wasn't born in Ireland, his parents weren't born in Ireland, his grandparents weren't born in Ireland and he never resided in Ireland, never mind for five years after the age of 18.

Thus, I don't see how he'd be eligible to play for Ireland, be it either as his first association or as a second association. If you're contending that he would qualify to play for the FAI under article 5, you'll need to explain why you think that is.

Surely it would be absurd that an Irish citizen who wouldn't be eligible to play for Ireland as his first association would be eligible to play for Ireland so long as he switched to the FAI from another association for whom he was eligible and for whom he played after he was already an Irish citizen.


And should he have first played for England at underage level, all that he needs is to demonstrate (with evidence) is that he had Irish nationality before he played for England.
In other words, he would have to have activated his Irish citizenship before playing for England.

Let's run with the following hypothetical case to demonstrate the logical conclusion or a potential bizarre consequence (surely impossible in reality) of your position:

The Irish government happens to award a French national, aged 18 and born in France, who has no family connection whatsoever to Ireland and who has never set foot in Ireland, an honorary Irish citizenship (which carries with it full legal rights) as a token to honour this person's (French/non-Irish) grandparent, who did business in Ireland or provided Ireland with some form of artistic or cultural enrichment and who, in the opinion of the government, "rendered distinguished service to the nation" in doing so (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_nationality_law#By_grant_of_honorary_citizen ship).

This 18-year-old person, now a dual French and Irish citizen, also happens to be very good at football. The FAI hear wind that he's an Irish citizen and look into selecting him, aged 19. However, it turns out he isn't actually eligible because his citizenship was acquired post-birth (or newly, in FIFA terms) and he doesn't satisfy any of the criteria outlined in article 7, which applies when a new nationality has been acquired.

At the age of 20, this person, who has remained resident in France, is selected by the French football federation for the first time to represent the France under-21 team. He then plays for France competitively at under-age level. At the age of 22, he is no longer being selected by the French football federation and is no longer eligible to play for the under-21 team on account of being over-age. The manager of France's senior team doesn't appear interested in him, so the player considers his options.

According to your position (if I'm understanding it correctly), he would now be fully entitled to switch and play for Ireland under article 8, simply by virtue of the fact that he had held Irish citizenship at the time he represented France, irrespective of the mechanism or means by which he acquired his Irish citizenship (because article 7's criteria allegedly no longer matter at this point). Is this what you're saying?

Not only does that view appear to contradict what CAS stated in Kearns, it also presents an utterly absurd vista. Do you not think it's odd that the above hypothetical person won't have been eligible to play for Ireland at the age of 19 (because he didn't satisfy the article 7 criteria), but will have been eligible at the age of 22 simply because he played competitively for another association - from whom he then switched - in the mean time? In effect, you may as well be saying that his eligibility for Ireland is triggered by having played for another association.


Because, according to Article 8, should a Noe Junior have first played for England underage, he could switch his allegiance to Ireland.
And that makes a monkey out of saying Noe Junior could not have first chosen to play for Ireland in the manner I described.

So, you're saying the article 5-7 criteria can be simply ignored when a player has acquired a new nationality since birth and wishes to switch to the association representing that nationality?


You are inventing conditions without any evidence.
Article 8.1 does not refer to other articles, it is a separate article of eligibility. It is a complete article of eligibility.
Under article 8, a dual national player can chose to switch to play for the country of his 2nd nationality as long as he was a national of that country before he played for his first country. If a dual national player satisfies that clear condition, he can make the switch.
There is no add on, no addendum, no annex anywhere, to contradict that.
If you claim what is written in the article 8 is not the complete truth, that there are other conditions at play, then you have to provide evidence to prove it.
You just can't make a wild statement and demand that I disprove it :)

If the previous three articles weren't relevant to article 8, then why does it expressly refer to the various distinctions with which they separately deal? If they're irrelevant and article 8 means what you're claiming it means, then why doesn't article 8 just say that a player may make a request to change association "f [that] player possesses a second nationality" (before going on to express the requirement for that nationality to have been held before the player played for his first association) instead of saying that a player may make a request to change association "[i]f [that] Player has more than one nationality, or if [that] Player acquires a new nationality, or if [that] Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality"?

Or, if article 8 really means what you're claiming it means, those three clauses could have been omitted altogether and the article could have run as follows:


[I]"A player may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another Country of which he holds nationality...."

But it doesn't say that and I believe that that is because the three clauses do have specific significance and refer back to the preceding three articles. Why else would they be expressly mentioned by description of what they oversee?

And what about, say, a player who may wish to switch from one of the British associations to another? He'd obviously have to satisfy both article 6 and article 8, for how would it otherwise be determined which association he'd be eligible to switch to and play for without necessary reference back to article 6?

Article 8 outlines the conditions that enable a switch, but, as far as I'm concerned, a player still has to satisfy one of the other three mentioned eligibility criteria as well. I think I've more than justified why I believe this to be the case. :o

[geysir]

Perhaps I haven’t explained it properly. Maybe if my name was Yann Geysir you’d be all ears :)

Yann Hafner wrote about article 8 in one of his papers on eligibility from June 2010
(extracted from the french version)
[Rz 47] The second nationality can be derived from a dual nationality, a nationality which allows a player to represent more than one country or naturalization. In the case of naturalization, it must have been acquired before playing for all or part of an international match of any age category, failing that, article 7 will apply and the player will have to comply with stricter rules.

Actually, Yann is not fully kosher here, if a player fails to satisfy that single important condition in article 8, a timely acquisition of that naturalized citizenship, no compliance with article 7 will rescue the application to change associations, because article 7 eligibility is bound by the strict terms in article 5 part 2.

An article 7 applicant is uncapped at any level. An article 8 applicant has already been capped and looking for an exemption from the conditions in article 5 part 2
But it's interesting that Yann clearly implies that if naturalisation was the source of the 2nd nationality, the timely fashion of its acquisition is enough to satisfy FIFA and if it was not obtained on time, he says (albeit erroneously) they will have to satisfy the stricter rules in article 7.
In a crucial part he agrees with me :), the terms of eligibility in article 8 are separate from articles 5 and 7 and are also less strict.

Why are the terms of article 7 stricter?
They are stricter because they regulate the integrity of the application of uncapped players to play for the country of their new citizenship. Those applicants have to be uncapped at any competitive level, because article 7 first refers to article 5 and the integrity of the change to a new country comes under greater scrutiny due to blatant exploitation of loopholes which challenged integrity.

Article 8 is for players who have already been capped at some level and who are applying to change association, as per their dual nationality.
There is a completely different criteria for them, much less strict.

An Irish citizen who was born to a naturalised Irish citizen outside Ireland, is exactly the type of dual nationality that can avail of article 8 to change associations, as long as he activated that citizenship before being capped at underage level for his country of birth.

[DannyInvincible]

OK, I appreciate what you're saying and thank you for explaining/elaborating. If I'm reading you correctly, that would mean it is possible then that my hypothetical dual French and Irish citizen (by virtue of an honorary citizenship granted by the Irish government when he was 18) would be eligible to play for the FAI after the age of 20 (effectively because he had already represented France competitively at under-age level when he was 20) but wouldn't have been eligible to play for the FAI at the age of 19. That just seems bizarre to me - or contrary to what the eligibility rules are seemingly there to accomplish - but if those are the rules, those are the rules.

Assuming Baba's hypothetical son wouldn't qualify to play for Ireland due to article 7, it would also mean that he would only become eligible to play for the FAI under article 8 if he played for England first (or another country for whom he was eligible) and then opted to switch to the FAI, so long as he held his Irish citizenship at the time he lined out for England. (I know you contend that Baba's son may qualify under article 5, but I'm still not sure why that's a reasonable assumption to make.)

You say Yann's statement, where he outlines that, "failing [satisfaction of the article 8 criteria], article 7 will apply and the player will have to comply with stricter rules", isn't kosher. Perhaps this can be reconciled with your earlier speculation that the "timely acquisition of nationality" clause in article 8 isn't always strictly applied (http://foot.ie/threads/119079-Potentially-eligible-players-thread?p=1939790&viewfull=1#post1939790)?

Also, one other question/problem with the interpretation you've outlined; if a British national who has been playing for England by virtue of satisfying article 6 wishes to switch to another British association under article 8, how does FIFA determine whether or not that player is eligible to play for the other British association without recourse to article 6? If there is a recourse to article 6, what permits such a recourse? If such a recourse is required by logical necessity, couldn't it be argued that recourse to article 7 is also logically necessitated in instances where a player who has acquired a new nationality wishes to switch association?

[geysir]

OK, I appreciate what you're saying and thank you for explaining. If I'm reading you correctly, that would mean it is possible then that my hypothetical dual French and Irish citizen (by virtue of an honorary citizenship granted by the Irish government when he was 18) would be eligible to play for the FAI at the age of 22 (effectively because he had already represented France) but wouldn't have been eligible to plat for the FAI at the age of 19. That just seems bizarre to me - or contrary to what the rules are seemingly there to accomplish - but if those are the rules, those are the rules.
Honorary citizenship isn't very compelling and that's one reason why FIFA practice individual assessment of each applicant.
There is enough ambiguity in the FIFA statutes to find reason to not be convinced by such an application.
However, the child born to a naturalised citizen has a different merit to his application. It is generally accepted that such applications are individually assessed by FIFA. Imo that´s one good reason for why they allow much of the ambiguity to remain.


Assuming Baba's hypothetical son wouldn't qualify to play for Ireland due to article 7, it would also mean that he would only become eligible to play for the FAI under article 8 if he played for England first (or another country for whom he was eligible) and then opted to switch to the FAI, so long as he held his Irish citizenship at the time he lined out for England. (I know you contend that Baba's son may qualify under article 5, but I'm still not sure why that's a reasonable assumption to make.)
When it comes to genuine immigrants / refugees and their children, as distinct from football mercenaries, then FIFA usually will row in behind the rights of the player and grant the eligibility application or grant the exemption from the rule. FIFA are more concerned with weeding out the mercenary or/and the exploitative element. Strange enough, but this is a dept of FIFA which aims to operates in the interests of the player and integrity of the game.


You say Yann's statement, where he outlines that, "failing [satisfaction of the article 8 criteria], article 7 will apply and the player will have to comply with stricter rules", isn't kosher. Perhaps this can be reconciled with your earlier speculation that the "timely acquisition of nationality" clause in article 8 isn't always strictly applied (http://foot.ie/threads/119079-Potentially-eligible-players-thread?p=1939790&viewfull=1#post1939790)?
No, I was very much mistaken, it appears that when it comes to a player requesting a transfer of association, FIFA want all the evidence and reasons for change. They want all the details. They want an account of the timeline and evidence to support it.


Also, one other question/problem with the interpretation you've outlined; if a British national who has been playing for England by virtue of satisfying article 6 wishes to switch to another British association under article 8, how does FIFA determine whether or not that player is eligible to play for the other British association without recourse to article 6? If there is a recourse to article 6, what permits such a recourse? If such a recourse is required by logical necessity, couldn't it be argued that recourse to article 7 is also logically necessitated in instances where a player who has acquired a new nationality wishes to switch association?
FIFA doesn't interfere with the criteria contained in article 6 which cover eligibility for the 4 UK associations. That's a zoned off area.
However, if a UK born player wants to play for a 2nd nationality, a country outside the UK, then he proceeds to apply through the normal FIFA channel and is subject to the conditions of the other articles .

[DannyInvincible]

Honorary citizenship isn't very compelling and that's one reason why FIFA practice individual assessment of each applicant.

Honorary citizenship grants the same rights as naturalisation (in Irish law, at least), but upon what set of criteria are these individual assessments based, if not the article 8 criteria? I thought applicants who wished to switch association only had to satisfy a strict application of the article 8 criteria, but if individual assessments are made - the introduction or acknowledgement of the concept of individuality would imply that a strict application of the general rule is not always conducted - and certain types of citizenship aren't deemed to be compelling, then there must be other considerations taken into account, such as the article 7 criteria perhaps?


There is enough ambiguity in the FIFA statutes to find reason to not be convinced by such an application.
However, the child born to a naturalised citizen has a different merit to his application. It is generally accepted that such applications are individually assessed by FIFA. Imo that´s one good reason for why they allow much of the ambiguity to remain.

We're simply discussing the hypothetical example in the context of article 8, which you contend is a completely distinct regulation that does not refer back to the preceding three articles, though. Where exactly is the ambiguity in article 8? Weren't you previously arguing there was no ambiguity in article 8? Your contention has been that possession alone of the citizenship of a second association suffices for a switch to be granted, so long as that citizenship was held at the time the applicant represented his first association. But, if there is ambiguity and there are other considerations (whatever they are), that cannot logically be the case.


FIFA doesn't interfere with the criteria contained in article 6 which cover eligibility for the 4 UK associations. That's a zoned off area.

Why is article 6 a "zoned off area"? To or for whom is it "zoned off"? It doesn't solely deal with eligibility for the four British associations (who do seem to enjoy a greater degree of independence or autonomy compared to other associations), after all; article 6 also governs eligibility for about 20 to 30 other associations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules#Nations_that_share_a_common _nationality). The article is still in FIFA's regulations, at the end of the day, so surely FIFA ultimately have discretion over this domain, if not for the British associations, then at least for the other 20-30 non-British associations to whom this regulation also applies, no?

Are you suggesting that if a player sought to switch from Ireland to the US (eligibility for whom is normally governed by article 6), or from Guam (who also share US nationality) to the US, FIFA wouldn't administer this (beyond confirming that the player satisfied article 8 presumably) and that it would be left up to the US federation (and possibly the Guamanian federation in the latter instance) to deal with it however they wished? Surely FIFA, as a governing body who, you would assume, wish to enforce an objective standard in order ensure and uphold the game's integrity, don't simply leave discretion such matters to the federations concerned. Wouldn't they leave open the possibility of an abuse of standards by federations who are given total discretion to act in their own interest?

Let's take the case of Jack Grealish as an example, in order to make another point/pose another question; he presumably had to lodge a request to switch from the FAI with FIFA. He was a British national at the time he played for Ireland. In real-life, as we know, he sought to switch to England and his switch was granted (by FIFA under article 8, I thought, but maybe not). Are you saying that had he actually sought to switch to Scotland (who also represent British citizenship, of course), that FIFA would hypothetically have permitted such a switch if the SFA (for whatever reason) gave it the green light - so FIFA would confirm satisfaction of article 8 and then leave it up to the British associations, in other words - despite Grealish not satisfying any of the article 6 criteria in respect of Scotland?


However, if a UK born player wants to play for a 2nd nationality, a country outside the UK, then he proceeds to apply through the normal FIFA channel and is subject to the conditions of the other articles .

He wouldn't be subject to article 8? Or are you referring to an uncapped player who is opting to play for an original association?

[gastric]

Lads, should this be debated on the eligibility thread rather than on here? I get excited on the possibility of new players and see amazingly detailed posts I haven't time to read. No offence meant, just saying.

[nigel-harps1954]

I think this thread has slowly turned into 'potentially ineligible players'.

[mark12345]

Lads, should this be debated on the eligibility thread rather than on here? I get excited on the possibility of new players and see amazingly detailed posts I haven't time to read. No offence meant, just saying.

Couldn't agree more. This post has turned into an immigration lawyer's corner.

[geysir]

Indeed, the thread had taken a turn into a whataboutery cul de sac.

[Eminence Grise]

I think this thread has slowly turned into 'potentially ineligible players'.

Unintelligible, more like. Have we really been wading through whether the hypothetical fruit of Noe Baba's loins might be able to play for Ireland? It's gone from surrealism to absurdism.

[johnnyc]

Potentially illegible thread. Dominated by few lads who post daily journals of waffle that nobody in their right mind cares about.

[Charlie Darwin]

Unintelligible, more like. Have we really been wading through whether the hypothetical fruit of Noe Baba's loins might be able to play for Ireland? It's gone from surrealism to absurdism.
When it gets to cubism we should be worried.

[geysir]

We are way post cubism these days.

[geysir]

Afaics, Jack Grealish is still a potentially eligible player.

That's thread relevance, served on a cold dish. :)

[Fixer82]

Teo is limited but will be in good company (think about it)

That took me a minute. Well played

[BonnieShels]

That took me a minute. Well played

5 days by my count. :P

[DannyInvincible]

We are way post cubism these days.

Hypothetical Baba Dadaism?

[DeLorean]

5 days by my count. :P

The joke doesn't even make sense. The player's name is Tee, not Teo.

P.S. Sorry Stutts. :)

[tetsujin1979]

Ethan Ampadu on the bench for Chelsea today

[Olé Olé]

Ethan Ampadu on the bench for Chelsea today
I find it so strange that nobody in the FAI picked up the phone to his father. They probably did. But surely if they had done it early Ampadu would be with us- given that he is Irish on his father's side and Welsh on his mother's and it is from his father that he probably gleaned the interest in football.

Maybe they did. Maybe they did it good and early bit the kid fancied Wales from the start and grew up a Ryan Giggs fan or something. Ah well...

[liamoo11]

I find it so strange that nobody in the FAI picked up the phone to his father. They probably did. But surely if they had done it early Ampadu would be with us- given that he is Irish on his father's side and Welsh on his mother's and it is from his father that he probably gleaned the interest in football.

Maybe they did. Maybe they did it good and early bit the kid fancied Wales from the start and grew up a Ryan Giggs fan or something. Ah well...

I'd say it fair to say they absolutely did try look at any under 15 or 16 squad there are always lads in from English sides with no obvious link to Ireland like the new lad in this 16s squad from Arsenal or the Hodge lad from man city. They don't find them without doing lots of work at youth level and they wood have been well aware that ampudu s lad was serious footballer even before he played at 15 for Exeter. He obviously feels Welsh you never know the family circumstances. Sure over on the English section in bigsoccer they are going nuts that he isn't in the English setup. How much earlier can you try and convince him than 15 when he was already a first team player? Really think the fai scouting system in UK gets unfair critisism