Séamus Coleman (D Everton b.1988) [Archive] - Page 33

DeLorean

13/02/2014, 12:30 PM

No suarez isnt as good as them.

DeLorean, its completely subjective what Liverpool are aiming for, but I'm pretty sure for a long time now rodgers behind the scenes has been gearing them up for a title push. He will say something to the media - like today where he leaves it open ended with the ambition statement - but they aren't really competing with Everton(8 points behind with 1 game in hand), perhaps spurs, but i think they are competing for at least at the very least top 4, not just top 4 with everton and spurs. They are 4 points off the top hardly settling for staying in 4th at 4 points off the top!!!

You cannot say that Liverpool with american owners who have invested quite heavily already and liverpool having invested more than utd over the last few years, and way more than everton have the same ambition as Everton. Thats plain wrong. Everton 19th liverpool 5th http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/transfer-league-table-last-five-seasons.html

As mentioned in an earlier thread Liverpools purchases are way ahead of UTDs.

Liverpool's ambition for quite a while has been to get into the top 4. Granted they're probably playing above themselves this season and, without the resource stretching distraction of cup competitions, have an outside chance of the title. That is 100% bonus territory though and certainly wasn't anything near the ambition at the start of the season.

They spent heavily in the January that Dalglish took over but since then have been fairly slow enough to flash the cash, getting financially outmuscled by Tottenham for players like Clint Dempsey and Christian Eriksen. I accept that Everton's spending power is less again.

Liverpool finished 6th, 8th and 7th in Suarez's previous three seasons. To apply the logic you did with McCarthy, he should have been gone well before this season even came around, that's all I was getting at really.

I agree Suarez isn't as good as Messi or Ronaldo, but he is probably the best player in the EPL... a pretty pointless barometer to be setting McCarthy's early Everton performances by.

paul_oshea

13/02/2014, 12:33 PM

McCarthy has only been at Everton 1 season. Suarez is at a team who are realistically pushing for at the very least top 4, they hadnt acheived that previously hence lots of talk and transfer speculation and transfers put in from Arsenal for example. Mccarthy had one solid offer of 10 mil plus add ons and he was sold!! There is no comparison DeLorean whether you look at the teams aims or the money spent or whatever.

And you completely missed the point, I was emphasising what excellent really means and how is bandied about without any realtivity really. If you score excellent in a maths test its probably 90%, probably about 4% achieve that result. Your mother might of course tell others that if you acheived 70% that you had done excellent in your maths exam.

DeLorean

13/02/2014, 12:43 PM

You're missing the point, which dressed down is... just because you're playing for an average team doesn't make you an average player.

Suarez wasn't at a team who were realistically challenging for the top 4 the last three seasons... yet he still remained playing for them, and still remained an excellent player.

McCarthy has been linked with Man Utd, Arsenal and indeed Liverpool repeatedly over the years but it's doesn't make him any better or worse than he is.

paul_oshea

13/02/2014, 12:50 PM

That was the original point which I disagreed with many posts back, and I understood what you were trying to say but I don't agree.

Liverpool spent big, and you would expect them to have performed better but for continuity of managers and a few other factors(one being poorly managed transfers and big money on awful players), it has nothing to do with playing for average teams, my original point(a few threads back) was that he would get a move away if he was trully excellent, within a couple of seasons, which is why Suarez was the subject of many bids from top teams. He hasn't had that yet, and the only concrete one for wigan came from Everton and he was sold, no top 4 team.

Linked means nothing, none of those teams came in for him, Arsenal a top four team consistenly over the last few years, put in a concrete bid for Suarez. Thats the point here, whether or not he reamined at liverpool is irrelevant!

We agree in one thing, that just because you are playing at an average team doesnt mean you are average, but it does mean you will get picked up by a bigger team if you are better than average!

DeLorean

13/02/2014, 1:29 PM

Liverpool actually came in for McCarthy as it happens... but he chose Wigan (and won an F.A. Cup compared to Liverpool's one League Cup in the same period) :)

I'm not even sure what we're discussing anymore. I agree that Suarez is significantly better in his own field than McCarthy is in his. I agree that Liverpool having more spending power than Everton. I don't agree that Liverpool's ambition has been significantly higher than Everton's over the past few years though and it definitely hasn't been higher than Tottenham's.

Just out of curiosity - what other bids, other than Arsenal's, was Suarez the subject of?

paul_oshea

13/02/2014, 1:42 PM

When did Liverpool come in for McCarthy? Was it speculation or was there an actual bid turned down?

Did you read the Henry article? read that compared with anything kenwright has said, his biggest ambition is to sell the club to a buyer who has the money to make them ambitious! Ok thats a bit frivilous. BUt you cannot compare the ambitions of liverpool and everton, discussion has moved on somewhat but it relates to the same original point thats why :)

Anyway we will agree to disagree you believe liverpool and everton have the same ambitions i do not, I believe that if McCarthy is as good as everyone is making out then he should be at a club playing in the CL in a couple of seasons, and if not then he isn't as good as everyone thinks he is.

Chelsea were making a bid for him. Although they put that off until the summer I think.

Crosby87

13/02/2014, 1:57 PM

Didn't Real bid for Suarez at some point?

DeLorean

13/02/2014, 1:58 PM

DeLorean

13/02/2014, 2:22 PM

And you completely missed the point, I was emphasising what excellent really means and how is bandied about without any realtivity really. If you score excellent in a maths test its probably 90%, probably about 4% achieve that result. Your mother might of course tell others that if you acheived 70% that you had done excellent in your maths exam.

Only saw this add-on afterwards.

I got your point, but basically you're saying that if McCarthy isn't performing as well as the best player in the league, then his performances shouldn't be considered excellent. Fair enough if that's the way you want to monitor his career/progress. Oh, and my mother would be absolutely correct in bragging about my excellent 70%... unfortunately I never really gave her the opportunity!

paul_oshea

13/02/2014, 3:01 PM

I thought he had the choice to join them but chose Wigan to get first team football. Could be wrong though but he definitely turned them down after a trial when he was 16 to go back to Hamilton.

When two teams are seeking the top four then, yes, I can compare their ambition, regardless of money spent/wasted. I'll agree to disagree though :)

So there were no other bids for Suarez then? "Many bids from top teams" was actually just one speculative offer from Arsenal?

How many 16 year olds are brought to clubs that means nothing DeLorean, they are shipped out just as quickly if things dont go right, its too early to know at that stage.

No Madrid and Chelsea( i thought they had bid for him last summer but I can't see an actual concrete bid - didnt liverpool improve the terms of his contract because of perceived bids and to stave off interest went arsenal went public?) did show interest DeLorean, perhaps they didn't bid though but I thought they had, sounds like both are going to reacquaint themselves this summer. Its at least more interest than some speculation about a 16 year old kid.

Ill still can't see how you can try and make out the ambition of Liverpool and Everton is the same. But ill leave it at that and happy to agree on disagreeing :)

No, I'm not saying that they have to be as good as THEbest in the league, but to describe his performances as excellent then you would have to say that he is definitely one of the best, or at least performing as one of the best!

DeLorean

13/02/2014, 3:23 PM

So paper talk linking McCarthy to United, Arsenal, Chelsea, etc isn't worth the paper it's written on but similar paper talk with Suarez is as good as an actual bid?

I agree about the 16 year old thing... I wasn't using it to enhance my debate!

paul_oshea

13/02/2014, 3:31 PM

No you are probably right it isnt. As I said i thought there were bids in from Chelsea and Real, and chelsea around the time but lower than arsenals but i cant find anything all that comes back is chelsea lining up summer bid!

DeLorean

13/02/2014, 3:40 PM

If Madrid genuinely wanted him we'd have absolutely known about it, granted they were regularly linked. They're not very subtle when they really want a player. The recent speculation surrounding Chelsea's summer intentions, I think, derived from the fact that Mourinho said he wouldn't buy a striker in January, that the one he wants isn't available until the summer. As far as I know the press put two and two together and came up with Suarez. I have also read that it might be Cavani.

There'll surely be big interest anyway in the summer given the season he's having and WC to follow.

Crosby87

13/02/2014, 6:35 PM

I thought Mourinho was referring to Kevin Doyle?

SkStu

14/02/2014, 12:03 AM

Anyway we will agree to disagree you believe liverpool and everton have the same ambitions i do not, I believe that if McCarthy is as good as everyone is making out then he should be at a club playing in the CL in a couple of seasons, and if not then he isn't as good as everyone thinks he is.

That doesn't make sense to me at all. Can you explain a bit more what you mean?

Any player is only playing as well as people think he is if his team qualifies for the CL or he plays for a team that will qualify for the CL within a couple of seasons?

Bit weird.

Crosby87

14/02/2014, 12:19 AM

Yeah, so can that club be Everton POSH? I think he might be saying if Big Mac is going to be one of the best at his position in the whole of the EPL (or already is as some on here think) then he should be able to get Everton over the hump, into the CL and bring glory to all. If they can't get over the hump, it was b/c he couldn't get them there. Crackbird for all.

paul_oshea

14/02/2014, 9:27 AM

Top players play for Top clubs is probably the bottom line. I don't think Everton are a top club. And if McCarthy is as excellent as you are all making out he is then in a couple of seasons I would expect to see him at a top club. I think its pretty obvious what I'm saying, and I think I am basing it on pretty simple metrics/criteria that work across the board in any profession really!

SkStu

14/02/2014, 10:58 PM

Top players play for Top clubs is probably the bottom line.

I don't agree at all. It just isn't as black and white as that in my opinion. Excellent, world class, top players often play at a lesser level than the top clubs and, similarly, the top clubs don't always have 22 excellent, world class, top players.

McCarthy is clearly an excellent player in a very good team. A team that is clearly on the up and playing a superb style of football. Any objective viewing of their games this season supports that analysis. Is he a world beater yet? No but I don't think anyone is saying that.

Charlie Darwin

14/02/2014, 11:48 PM

I don't agree at all. It just isn't as black and white as that in my opinion. Excellent, world class, top players often play at a lesser level than the top clubs and, similarly, the top clubs don't always have 22 excellent, world class, top players.

McCarthy is clearly an excellent player in a very good team. A team that is clearly on the up and playing a superb style of football. Any objective viewing of their games this season supports that analysis. Is he a world beater yet? No but I don't think anyone is saying that.
McCarthy is three years younger than Mirallas and is playing in a position where it is a lot tougher to stand out. Mirallas could be a star at this World Cup and is playing at Everton, so I don't see why it would hold McCarthy back.

SkStu

16/02/2014, 2:15 PM

Excellent second half from Coleman. You know what it was like by now.

His first half was a bit sloppy, like Evertons performance.

Charlie Darwin

16/02/2014, 2:18 PM

Clark Carlisle's man of the match on ITV (I think?)

DeLorean

16/02/2014, 2:19 PM

Yeah just got the ITV man of the match.

tricky_colour

16/02/2014, 2:42 PM

Yea he got MOM, I think it the sponsor's MOM as shown on BT sport steam. It's sponsored by Budweiser.
That should boost his stats I think.
Dam just realised I watch it on a stream when it was on TV doh!!!

Charlie Darwin

16/02/2014, 2:47 PM

tricky_colour

16/02/2014, 3:05 PM

The broadcaster - in this case ITV - chooses the man of the match.

Well I guess anyone can be asked who was their MOM but I think there could be more than one broadcaster,
however I think in this case they (ITV) would have chosen the Budweiser MOM. In the Premiership it would be Barclay's MOM
I think.
Just seen it on ITV+1 and it is described as the Budweiser MOM, obviously they do pick him, they are just sponsors.

Charlie Darwin

16/02/2014, 3:43 PM

ITV are the host broadcasters - the cameras at the game are theirs. Other broadcasters can choose their own man of the match if they like but it won't be announced at the game.

tricky_colour

15/03/2014, 3:54 PM

TheOneWhoKnocks

15/03/2014, 3:57 PM

GAOL!!!

Coleman gets the winner for Everton, great work by McGeady on the wing to put in a cross which was head back to
Colemen who shaped up to hammer it home but then clever clipped it slowly into the net!!

Brilliant stuff!!

They said it was mi**** on Sky Sports Soccer Saturday. Then again, they said the same about one of his other goals and that turned out to be a class goal, so I don't know what to believe..

Find a video or GIF of the goal, Tricky. Good lad.

SkStu

15/03/2014, 4:19 PM

I was watching that game - it was a complete mi****. He shinned it like a goal he scored earlier in the season. Lovely deep cross from McGeady to set it up.

tricky_colour

15/03/2014, 4:20 PM

They said it was mi**** on Sky Sports Soccer Saturday. Then again, they said the same about one of his other goals and that turned out to be a class goal, so I don't know what to believe..

Find a video or GIF of the goal, Tricky. Good lad.

Well...... my description was a somewhat flattering version of reality, lets put it that way ;)

John83

15/03/2014, 4:34 PM

They said it was mi**** on Sky Sports Soccer Saturday. Then again, they said the same about one of his other goals and that turned out to be a class goal, so I don't know what to believe..

Find a video or GIF of the goal, Tricky. Good lad.

I was watching that game - it was a complete mi****. He shinned it like a goal he scored earlier in the season. Lovely deep cross from McGeady to set it up.
Can I suggest hyphenating "miss-hit"?

tricky_colour

15/03/2014, 7:02 PM

vid here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn4t7oL6zWM

Great concealed sliced chip from Coleman, top draw :)

TheOneWhoKnocks

15/03/2014, 7:05 PM

He meant it.

tricky_colour

15/03/2014, 11:14 PM

6th goal make him Everton's 2nd highest goal scorer.
He is also Everton's (joint) lightest player.
Also he now has 4.5 shots per goal, which is a good ratio.

Charlie Darwin

15/03/2014, 11:28 PM

He meant it.He admitted he didn't!

SkStu

16/03/2014, 12:14 AM

Can I suggest hyphenating "miss-hit"?

Can I suggest you stop being a mi****head? ;)

DeLorean

19/03/2014, 12:59 PM

Summer move to Man Utd? (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/manchester-united-seamus-coleman-transfer-3260300)

Charlie Darwin

19/03/2014, 2:19 PM

By David McDonnell. That would be the David McDonnell who twice declared Leighton Baines' move to United to be signed, sealed and delivered (he's yours). Everton didn't accept £15m for 30-year-old Baines, they're hardly going to take £15m for 25-year-old Coleman.

DeLorean

19/03/2014, 2:29 PM

As the rags go, I thought The Mirror was one of the slightly better ones for this kind of thing... obviously not.

centre mid

19/03/2014, 3:20 PM

Moyes wont be there to buy him, lazy journalism once again.

Bungle

19/03/2014, 3:51 PM

Even if Moyes is there, I don't think it's the right move for him. The atmosphere in that squad is appalling and even if Moyes leaves, I still wouldn't be convinced it's the right place for Seamus.

As bad as Moyes is, he was left a terrible team by Fergie. Having said that Fergie was probably worth 15-20 points to them over the last few seasons, whether through brilliant man management or the aura he had around the place, even if that often involved intimidating rival managers or officials.

United are probably 6-7 players away from being a top team and that might be generous to them. Mata is a great player for a top team, but with their glaring deficiencies, he's not what they need. RVP and Rooney don't even pass to each other and as good as Januzaj might be he's been put in the shade by lads like Sterling and Barkley. That alone isn't the main problems for United, which is that their supporters in the main have a grandiose opinion of themselves. They fail to understand that success is cyclical - ask Liverpool fans. Should Seamus go there and get off to a bad start in the current climate, especially if he was signed by Moyes, they'd turn on him in a way that might not happen at other top clubs.

The club that he would most suit would be Liverpool but there isn't a hope in hell he'd end up there. I would be happy if he went to Arsenal, but I do have a big soft spot for Everton.

Stuttgart88

19/03/2014, 7:30 PM

I'm not convinced he should move, but with Sagna rumoured to be leaving I think Coleman would be well suited to Arsenal. The culture of the club would suit him and he'd benefit from CL football. Man U would be an unnecessary career risk right now. On balance I think staying at Everton would be best for him.

tricky_colour

19/03/2014, 11:12 PM

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11671/9221142/everton-boss-roberto-martinez-set-to-offer-seamus-coleman-a-new-deal-as-he-rewards-youngsters

Everton boss Roberto Martinez set to offer Seamus Coleman a new deal as he rewards youngsters

http://e1.365dm.com/14/03/16-9/20/Coleman_3101732.jpg?20140315170455

Seamus riding invisible Harley-Davidson

http://cloudlakes.com/data_images/models/harley-davidson-road-king-classic/harley-davidson-road-king-classic-02.jpg

No wonder he so fast down the wing.

Charlie Darwin

19/03/2014, 11:23 PM

How many contracts does Seamus sign a season? This must be the third one he's signed since Martinez took over.

DeLorean

20/03/2014, 10:21 AM

That alone isn't the main problems for United, which is that their supporters in the main have a grandiose opinion of themselves. They fail to understand that success is cyclical - ask Liverpool fans. Should Seamus go there and get off to a bad start in the current climate, especially if he was signed by Moyes, they'd turn on him in a way that might not happen at other top clubs.

Success is only as cyclical as United let it though really. A few shrewd/big signings and probably a change of manager and they could be competing again soon. A few more bad decisions and they could be in the doldrums indefinitely. A lot is made of the mess that Ferguson has left, but in fairness he focused on signing young English players in the last few years of his reign to build for the future. Whether the likes of Smalling and Jones turn out to be good enough remains to be seen though, but there is potential there. Coleman is a player I honestly don't think United need. Rafael is a top player in my opinion and there are a few natural centre backs who can do a job at right back if needed. It certainly isn't their problem area. Obviously Rafael takes a bit of stick for being too rash at times but that's just the nature of his approach, personally I like it.

As for the United fans - obviously there are many of the younger generation that know nothing other than almost unbroken success, but I'm not sure they are all that different from most clubs. Remember Blackburn under Steve Kean, now that was hostile and they were a club with seriously limited expectations. If Moyes had taken over at Chelsea, as another example, he'd be afraid to enter the stadium by now. The United match goers have been almost unnaturally supportive, given the understandable frustrations. It won't last forever though.

John83

21/03/2014, 1:28 PM

My brother mentioned some rumour about Rafael agitating for a move in the summer. I would think that's the only scenario in which Man Utd would want to sign a right back this year.

TheBoss

22/03/2014, 12:50 AM

From my analysis of the situation at United, is that Moyes will be looking tough, rugged and committed defenders, central and full backs. With full backs that are fast in order to attack and defend, Moyes likes a defensive style and the current situation at the club, is that the defenders are not able to play in his system, we have seen this by the games that they have lost that they shouldn't have. So a move for Coleman is very possible imo. Rafael is good, but often does not get back quick enough, although Coleman is not the greatest at defending, he still gets back more often than Rafael.

tricky_colour

22/03/2014, 1:41 AM

Man U dropped a huge amount when Moyes joined, hard to explain given it
was basically the same team/squad as the previous season. I wonder if it was due to
a change in style of play, or maybe the players did not respect him so would not put so much effort in?
Or maybe Fergie promised them the earth next season knowing they would never get it.

They certainly have a lot of ground to make up, it would be like a Spurs or Everton or worse winting
the title a few seasons ago ie pretty much impossible.
Having said that Liverpool seem to have come on quite a bit this season, I out a small bet on them
at 12-1 near the start of the season, they are in to 3-1 now.
Still a big ask however one site predicts they will win the title by 1 point, however it does also
put Man City 4th, so it does not seem very credible. I also backed Everton for the same, but
I can kiss that one goodbye!!

I think the reason for the sites prediction of a Liverpool title win may be they have the easier run in,
Man City have some tough away games, ie Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool and Everton, toughest away
game Liverpool have is West Ham, who are still relegation candidates, albeit fairly unlikely ones (7/2).