James McCarthy M free agent b.1990 [Archive] - Page 71

peadar1987

11/01/2013, 11:44 AM

BonnieShels

11/01/2013, 12:07 PM

With the greatest of respect, I don't think people who are only of one ethnicity or nationality can really comment on what people of mixed heritage "should" feel, and who they "ought" to represent.

Which part(s) of your heritage you identify with is a purely personal thing. It's not necessarily limited to just the one small aspect, and it's certainly not for anyone else to dictate to you.

You're of mixed heritage Peadar aren't you? Forgive me if I made a wrong assumption, but I seem to remember you saying your Dad was English before (which explained why you supported Stoke)?

Do you identify with that part of your heritage? That's assuming of course your Dad isn't Irish a la, Killer.

I have to go back generations to get off this island and even then I reckon that my Scottish ancestors who came to Ireland were probably Dal Riada so that kinda makes it null.

paul_oshea

11/01/2013, 2:19 PM

Plantation Land grabber!!!

Charlie Darwin

11/01/2013, 2:58 PM

Well it's up to them to choose. Not for us to say.
But he has chosen, and he's made it fairly clear that he's both Scottish and Irish.

Bungle

11/01/2013, 3:02 PM

With the greatest of respect, I don't think people who are only of one ethnicity or nationality can really comment on what people of mixed heritage "should" feel, and who they "ought" to represent.

Which part(s) of your heritage you identify with is a purely personal thing. It's not necessarily limited to just the one small aspect, and it's certainly not for anyone else to dictate to you.

Spot on that. My oldest son spent his formative years in London, so he grew up feeling English but very proud of his Irish ancestry. The youngest two spent their formative years in Liverpool. They felt much more Irish than the eldest lad and would have said that they are Irish and not English.

SkStu

11/01/2013, 3:16 PM

It seems that if someone says something even remotely "controversial" (not that I think what I said was controversial) or not in keeping with the outlook of a few posters on any issues of nationality or similar, then they get slated unnecessarily e.g. "sheer ignorance" or "narrowminded".

The original post took umbrage with a journalist at the beeb, presumably English, :) calling James a Scot. I pointed out that it is accurate to call James a Scot. He was born in Scotland. It's really quite straightforward. His ancestry means that he is part-Irish, proud of it and therefore able to play for our football team. It would also be accurate to call him an Irish international. This doesn't make him solely Irish.

Why are people so sensitive and precious about this?

My point regarding Keown and Morrisson, though someone said it was "too easy", is the perfect point. I'm not making any statements about how these folks should feel as Peadar implied I was. I think those cases are actually "too difficult" to deduce. I struggle with it. If ArdeeBhoy goes by someone's proclaimed identification with or affinity with ancestry as the indicator for nationality then what of those two? What about the Gallens? The default position has to be that ancestry/eligibility whatever you want to call it doesn't and shouldnt override place of birth and residence for someone's entire life as being an accurate statement of nationality.

DannyInvincible

11/01/2013, 3:41 PM

Can't we take this nationality talk to a more appropriate thread? Like the eligibility one? :p

geysir

11/01/2013, 3:46 PM

It seems that if someone says something even remotely "controversial" (not that I think what I said was controversial) or not in keeping with the outlook of a few posters on any issues of nationality or similar, then they get slated unnecessarily e.g. "sheer ignorance" or "narrowminded".

The original post took umbrage with a journalist at the beeb, presumably English, :) calling James a Scot. I pointed out that it is accurate to call James a Scot. He was born in Scotland. It's really quite straightforward. His ancestry means that he is part-Irish, proud of it and therefore able to play for our football team. It would also be accurate to call him an Irish international. This doesn't make him solely Irish.
Who said it makes him solely Irish? however in football terms, he's solely Irish.

Why are people so sensitive and precious about this?
I replied to your obtuse comment
"he is a scot though! He simply plays international football for Ireland..." which implies no Irish ethnicity and which doesn't explain why he plays for Ireland. He plays for Ireland because he's also Irish.

My point regarding Keown and Morrisson, though someone said it was "too easy", is the perfect point. I'm not making any statements about how these folks should feel as Peadar implied I was. I think those cases are actually "too difficult" to deduce. I struggle with it. If ArdeeBhoy goes by someone's proclaimed identification with or affinity with ancestry as the indicator for nationality then what of those two? What about the Gallens? The default position has to be that ancestry/eligibility whatever you want to call it doesn't and shouldnt override place of birth and residence for someone's entire life as being an accurate statement of nationality.
It isn't an accurate statement of nationality, is it?
The default position of assuming somebody is only a Scot by dint of his his birthplace/residence, is overridden by our knowledge of the said person.
He is a dual national who has chosen to represent Ireland on the football stage.

Bungle

11/01/2013, 3:49 PM

So are us Southern Banditos more like Koreans or Mexicans:)?

peadar1987

11/01/2013, 3:59 PM

You're of mixed heritage Peadar aren't you? Forgive me if I made a wrong assumption, but I seem to remember you saying your Dad was English before (which explained why you supported Stoke)?

Do you identify with that part of your heritage? That's assuming of course your Dad isn't Irish a la, Killer.

I have to go back generations to get off this island and even then I reckon that my Scottish ancestors who came to Ireland were probably Dal Riada so that kinda makes it null.

Yes, my Dad's from Stoke, and although I identify primarily as Irish, I still do identify as English as well, or more specifically as midlands English, generally manifesting itself as a dislike of southerners! I think I've said before that I'll cheer for England in cricket, (except when they're playing Kevin O'Brien), but not in any other sport.

On the other hand, my girlfriend is Dutch on both sides, going back generations, and moved to Scotland when she was 11. Now she speaks English with a Scottish accent, drinks whiskey, cheers for Scotland at rugby, and considers herself as Scottish as Dutch, in spite of not having any Scottish blood in her. I think she'd represent Scotland with pride if she was a top-class athlete given that chance.

Stu, my post wasn't aimed specifically at you, more at a general attitude that anyone not born in Ireland, or with purely Irish heritage is a "plastic paddy" who is only in it for cynical reasons. It's an attitude that seems almost as prevalent in Ireland as abroad, I think in no small part due to the fact that many people are ignorant of what it's actually like to have mixed heritage**.

**I rewrote that part about 3 times, and found it impossible to make it sound like it's not a constant struggle against overwhelming odds to have a parent born across the water! It's not, but I can't find a better way of phrasing it!

peadar1987

11/01/2013, 4:01 PM

So are us Southern Banditos more like Koreans or Mexicans:)?

I was genuinely shocked that this photo already existed:

http://act.americasvoiceonline.org/page/-/americasvoice/images/kimjongil_sombrero.jpg

DannyInvincible

11/01/2013, 4:06 PM

Ha, how on earth did you stumble across that?

peadar1987

11/01/2013, 4:21 PM

Ha, how on earth did you stumble across that?

The usual way

SkStu

11/01/2013, 4:34 PM

Who said it makes him solely Irish? however in football terms, he's solely Irish.

Nobody. But people getting upset about him being called a Scot must want him to be referred to as Irish. Fortunately, football terms don't dictate nationality.

I replied to your obtuse comment
"he is a scot though! He simply plays international football for Ireland..." which implies no Irish ethnicity and which doesn't explain why he plays for Ireland. He plays for Ireland because he's also Irish.

It was in no way, shape or form an obtuse comment. He is a Scot. He plays football for Ireland. That this sentiment upsets you is mind boggling to me. The very fact that he plays international football for Ireland proves that he has irish ethnicity, I don't think that needs to be pointed out.

It isn't an accurate statement of nationality, is it?
The default position of assuming somebody is only a Scot by dint of his his birthplace/residence, is overridden by our knowledge of the said person.
He is a dual national who has chosen to represent Ireland on the football stage.

Yes it is an accurate statement of nationality. More accurate would be Scots Irish. I'll spell it out for you again and anyone else who wants to continue to take my statement and get upset by it. The OP took issue with the fact that he was called a Scot. I pointed out that it is an accurate statement. Nowhere did I decry his Irishness.

boovidge

11/01/2013, 5:42 PM

"Scots Irish" is a term used to describe Ulster-Scots from the North and their descendents in America so it wouldn't be accurate at all. The reason I made the OP is because as far as football is concerned his nationality is Irish and Irish alone, he is not eligible to play for Scotland under FIFA rules, so why describe him as a Scot in a football article unless it's ignorance about his FIFA status or to make some sort of statement? Is Kris Commons called "the Englishman" on the BBC site? Will they refer to Wilfried Zaha as Ivorian even though he's an England international?

Sullivinho

11/01/2013, 5:43 PM

I was genuinely shocked that this photo already existed:

Fantastic.

You wait for a moment of genuine comedic gold to come along, then Aengus MacGrianna and peadar1987 deliver in the same week!

ArdeeBhoy

11/01/2013, 11:29 PM

I struggle with it. If ArdeeBhoy goes by someone's proclaimed identification with or affinity with ancestry as the indicator for nationality then what of those two? What about the Gallens? The default position has to be that ancestry/eligibility whatever you want to call it doesn't and shouldnt override place of birth and residence for someone's entire life as being an accurate statement of nationality.

Won't labour the point, suffice to say I entirely disagree. And a good job you've not met a few people from the west of Scotland. They would not be impressed.

Fixer82

12/01/2013, 12:53 PM

What will be interesting is to see the reaction of people when a talented Irish kid with an English parent opts to play for England.
We couldn't reasonably have any complaint with it but I imagine many will have a huge issue

Charlie Darwin

12/01/2013, 1:17 PM

How do you know that will happen?

I imagine it would be closer to the furore over Rory McIlroy saying he felt more British than the understanding towards Eoin Morgan, but I don't think it would be the end of the world.

edit: according to wikipedia it hasn't happened before in football: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_international_footballers_born_out side_of_England

Off the top of my head, I can think of one example in rugby: Kieran Bracken, who was born here but grew up in England.

paul_oshea

12/01/2013, 1:53 PM

whats your definition of nationality.i think thats the issue here that people have a problem with.

Junior

14/01/2013, 10:03 AM

Skstu - Whats your definition of the like of Kilbane? The Scot-Irish equivalent, You didnt answer me?

Genuinely interested, not looking to stir.

Bungle

14/01/2013, 10:36 AM

Having seen the United-Liverpool game, I think James would walk into both their teams. I also think he would comfortably get into the Arsenal team. Maybe I'm biased because he's an Irish international, but I would be amazed if he isn't playing for a top 6 club this time next year.

SkStu

14/01/2013, 3:31 PM

Skstu - Whats your definition of the like of Kilbane? The Scot-Irish equivalent, You didnt answer me?

Genuinely interested, not looking to stir.

Sorry Junior, didnt mean to avoid answering the question. Nobody really properly responded to my Morrisson/Keown question either so i thought maybe we were dealing in hypotheticals... ;)

With regards to Kilbane, my feelings are well known on him as a servant to the Irish team. As you would see in his thread, I think he is an Irish legend. I love the guy. Part of the reason i love him so much is that as an English born person, he so thoroughly embraced his Irishness, the part of him that is Irish. But both his parents were Irish, right? He would tend to have a more genuine affinity? Maybe im wrong. In all honesty, if someone referred to him as English id pull them up on it and point out how Irish he was but, at the end of the day, i wouldnt be too surprised if someone relied on his birthplace to argue evidence of his nationality and try to claim him as a "Plastic".

I just want to point out again that i only claimed that it is pretty reasonable for a person born in Scotland to scottish parents and who grew up in Scotland as "a Scot". Despite others sensitivities, i wasnt discrediting James' irishness or the Irishness of any other person who has played footie for us.

SkStu

19/01/2013, 2:59 PM

Charlie Darwin

19/01/2013, 3:52 PM

That's that infamous Scottish indiscipline showing through.

Wigan dropping into the bottom 3 as things stand with Reading beating Newcastle.

geysir

19/01/2013, 4:16 PM

The Scot (sorry, couldn't resist) conceded a penalty to Sunderland today. Handball from a free kick. I just seen it on the halftime show and it was a definite penalty, he had both arms extended and the ball hit the right hand. Very silly but sh!t happens.
It was a definite penalty, but I thought the ball hit his arm, which he had protecting his face instead of his balls, therefore one could say it was in an unnatural position.
In the 2nd half he played well, driving Wigan forward.

tricky_colour

20/01/2013, 1:30 AM

Players in the wall should be allowed to wear crash helmets.

Crosby87

20/01/2013, 6:03 PM

I have an Irish passport but part of the problem is lack of knowledge. How can one consider themselves of a certain nation if they know little about it. Ill give you an example. I was on the train one time when i was over there for a summer about 20 years ago with relatives. And, I was watching the list of upcoming stops, and I asked what Done-LowGare was. And they were all like Its not pronounced that way, and its where you have been living the last 3 weeks, and the other times you were here....its where you live. Idiot.
But im sure young James could pronounce it.
Now, whos betting on the Ravens later? They're getting 8 and a half. Vegas is begging people to take them b/c they think its going to be like 55-21 NE. And so do I.

ArdeeBhoy

24/01/2013, 9:10 AM

This thread gets odder and odder...

Charlie Darwin

30/01/2013, 6:05 AM

geysir

30/01/2013, 7:27 AM

That Stoke goal was a calamity of errors which didn't involve Caldwell, he could only watch helplessly at what was happening in front of him.
This was an entertaining game the best I've seen Wigan play all season, maybe they can string together a few similar performances.
McCarthy stood back a bit and allowed McArthur (Wigan's Scottish midfielder) to have his day in the limelight.

BonnieShels

30/01/2013, 1:35 PM

He has to leave in this window... doesn't he?

tricky_colour

30/01/2013, 2:36 PM

Nice little assist for the first Stoke goal here. Also started the move for Wigan's first.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xx4j7n_stoke-city-vs-wigan-2-2-goals-highlights_sport?start=119#.UQjF7r9LO9E

Replacement of removed video, but UK only perhaps.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/premier-league-matchpack-stoke-city-v-wigan-athletic-160435592.html
He's in no way to blame for the first.

Roberto

31/01/2013, 8:44 AM

He has to leave in this window... doesn't he?

Not only will he not move but why would a ROI supporter want him to move? He's playing regularly, having a good season and has come on a lot under Martinez. So if you get your wish and he does move there is a good chance he will be sitting on the bench at a 'bigger' club when are World Cup qualifiers in the spring come around. I know where I would prefer him to be.

BonnieShels

31/01/2013, 9:32 AM

Not only will he not move but why would a ROI supporter want him to move? He's playing regularly, having a good season and has come on a lot under Martinez. So if you get your wish and he does move there is a good chance he will be sitting on the bench at a 'bigger' club when are World Cup qualifiers in the spring come around. I know where I would prefer him to be.

I really really really hate Wigan and Martinez so pretty much every comment re them will be irrational and biased.

You are right wrt it being good for Ireland. But still. Irrationality and bias always wins out.

Roberto

31/01/2013, 9:39 AM

I really really really hate Wigan and Martinez so pretty much every comment re them will be irrational and biased.

You are right wrt it being good for Ireland. But still. Irrationality and bias always wins out.

What did Martinez and Wigan ever to do to you? I think Martinez is a nice bloke and Wigan are a decent, well run club.

Charlie Darwin

31/01/2013, 9:41 AM

What did Martinez and Wigan ever to do to you? I think Martinez is a nice bloke and Wigan are a decent, well run club.
Nice try, Roberto.

Roberto

31/01/2013, 9:53 AM

Nice try, Roberto.

Seriously, I'm a little lost as I don't come on here too often. But what's the problem with Martinez?

BonnieShels

31/01/2013, 9:54 AM

Well for starters, he has the same name as you... think about it. Take as long as you need.

Roberto

31/01/2013, 10:04 AM

Well for starters, he has the same name as you... think about it. Take as long as you need.

Don't know wtf you are on about but if this is the standard of your contributions to this board I'm obviously not missing much by not visiting too often.

geysir

31/01/2013, 10:27 AM

Dead right Roberto. That's a nailed on summary.
Though the initials 'BS' are a giveaway.

BonnieShels

31/01/2013, 10:47 AM

What did Martinez and Wigan ever to do to you? I think Martinez is a nice bloke and Wigan are a decent, well run club.

Nice try, Roberto.

Seriously, I'm a little lost as I don't come on here too often. But what's the problem with Martinez?

Well for starters, he has the same name as you... think about it. Take as long as you need.

Don't know wtf you are on about but if this is the standard of your contributions to this board I'm obviously not missing much by not visiting too often.

You called Roberto Martinez a nice guy. Your username is Roberto. Charlie made a mildly amusing observation of that fact.

Untwist your knickers.

BonnieShels

31/01/2013, 10:49 AM

Dead right Roberto. That's a nailed on summary.
Though the initials 'BS' are a giveaway.

Unusually more active today and full of hot air. :P

paul_oshea

31/01/2013, 1:41 PM

Who, you or geysir?

BonnieShels

31/01/2013, 1:45 PM

Who, you or geysir?

geysir...

Whoosh...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Strokkur_Geysir_Iceland_2005-6.JPG

Has everyone lost their senses of humour?

paul_oshea

31/01/2013, 2:21 PM

No, I haven't, the joke was there, in the "or" part.

BonnieShels

31/01/2013, 2:38 PM

This could easily turn into some sort of feedback loop.

Closed Account

11/02/2013, 10:06 AM

Chelsea's pre match scouting report on Wigan got leaked http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/10/article-2276641-1778F134000005DC-117_632x844.jpg

Here's what they had to say about McCarthy:

Good young central midfielder who is excelling at Wigan due to lots of game time. Excels at maintaining possession and build up play, but lacks ability in final third. Two footed player who always gives his teammates an option. He's in a position which requires a decent level of tackling, which is one flaw in his game; don't be afraid to run at him. Overall, a player with real potential and flourishes when playing alongside McArthur.

Hard to argue with that.