James McCarthy M free agent b.1990

[Charlie Darwin]

Im aware of your point, but there is never a way of knowing looking back, whether or not some players not being there, it was so tight, might have actually helped or those who could have been called up could have got a point either way. LIke last campaign with Kilbane he definitely cost us points against bulgaria home and away. Had he not played, for example we might have topped the group. If he is replaced now then its proof that Trap sees the same but has left it too late - yes jigging it around we could have played without kilbane.
O'Shea cost us points in both Italy games. St. Ledger cost us a clean sheet at home against France. Overall, we were very good defensively the last campaign, particularly given the amount of time we spent without the ball.

[Supreme feet]

By 2002 a lot of these players had more than 1 qualifying campaign under their belts, had the experience of losing out, being so close, jelled together as a team etc.
Which goes to show that continuity is all-important in a competitive international team.

Relating that principle to the present day, and the concerns in this thread, we do need to bring in the young lads, definitely, as many of them play in positions where we're deficient at the moment. But it has to be gradual, and fans need to be patient. After the Macedonia home game, we have three friendlies. We saw Cunningham against Norway, we'll see Clark, Coleman and probably Wilson tonight, and we'll see McCarthy against Uruguay. Probably Meyler then in May. Have a pint and relax, everyone. :)

[paul_oshea]

Oshea got us a chance by getting an italian sent off. so he is level on that.
St ledger got us a couple of goals, and he got us 2 - 1 up against italy at home :D

The point is that you cant necessarily say that those individual players back then got us there when we had already just missed out on 2 previous occasions.

Kilbane though certainly cost us more overall CD.

[paul_oshea]

Which goes to show that continuity is all-important in a competitive international team.



Yes continuity not necessarily your original point sticking with the old and trusted. Its not like for like, carsley, holland, kinsale were all decent stable players, we would gladly have them involved now when we look at the alternatives. But now we are seriouslly deficient in key areas and there ARE alternatives. Continuity is great, you can still have continuity by making changes. Continuity isn't all encompassing but its not narrowly defined to picking the same 11 in the same formation game after game. If we have better players, better alternatives then bringing these players in, is showing continuity, continuity for change when its required.

[Supreme feet]

In my opinion, Green is the only player in the current squad who urgently needs dropping and international banishment. Whelan still has something to offer in the future if he gets his club situation sorted out, as does Andrews and possibly Gibson. McCarthy has been very unlucky with the timing of his injuries. When I heard that he limped off against Blackburn, I feared the worst, and glumly anticipated the hysteria that would unfold on here. Trap is giving a shot to two uncapped lads tonight, and I'm happy enough with that.

[Charlie Darwin]

Oshea got us a chance by getting an italian sent off. so he is level on that.
St ledger got us a couple of goals, and he got us 2 - 1 up against italy at home :D

The point is that you cant necessarily say that those individual players back then got us there when we had already just missed out on 2 previous occasions.

Kilbane though certainly cost us more overall CD.
I'm not saying anybody "cost us more" - just that each of the defenders' contributions outweigh the errors they made. We were forced to defend for large parts of every game in the last campaign and it's inevitable that mistakes will be made. I wouldn't blame Kilbane for his own goal, either - it was a great cross and he was forced to make some sort of intervention, and it only came about because Bulgaria were being allowed put constant pressure on the defence.

[rebelmusic]

If you read back you'll notice i posted about McCarthy getting a knock in Wigan's last match. It really did look painful and the second i saw it i knew he was gone for tonight. And because of that, i'm paying no attention to all the hysteria.

Wigan have been back on form from the day James came back. I don't think you can really blame them for not wanting to release him and he's young and impressionable.

Martinez should just pick up the phone, explain the situation to Trap and that be the end of it. From Trap's demeanour, he doesn't seem too ****ed off which suggests he understands the situation. It's only a fecking friendly and we have 2 debuts. James probably wouldn't have started anyway!

[Noelys Guitar]

If you read back you'll notice i posted about McCarthy getting a knock in Wigan's last match. It really did look painful and the second i saw it i knew he was gone for tonight. And because of that, i'm paying no attention to all the hysteria.

Wigan have been back on form from the day James came back. I don't think you can really blame them for not wanting to release him and he's young and impressionable.

Martinez should just pick up the phone, explain the situation to Trap and that be the end of it. From Trap's demeanour, he doesn't seem too ****ed off which suggests he understands the situation. It's only a fecking friendly and we have 2 debuts. James probably wouldn't have started anyway!

Your last sentence sums it up and I believe is at the heart of the problem. I agree with you that Trap was not going to start McCarthy tonight or possibly even play him (He showed us that already by leaving him out of the original 29)and you don't seem to have a problem with that which is fair enough. I do have a problem with it. McCarthy has already played for us against Brazil (and acquited himself well). Proved himself an outstanding player in the SPL. Showed some real promise for Wigan last season. And has been outstanding for Wigan in his last two games. Whelan, Green and Gibson have shown little or nothing in recent times for club or country.

[EalingGreen]

Which goes to show that continuity is all-important in a competitive international team.Do not be deceived by the value of continuity for its own sake. (Otherwise you risk persisting with players or managers even after it becomes evident that they are not up to the mark)

Continuity is not an end in itself imo, rather it is a means to an end. In the context of team selection, continuity allows players to acquire experience of the manager's methods and playing instructions etc, and put them into practice in competitive games. (Remember, with international teams only playing around 8 games per year, one season's experience in club football is roughly equivalent to five seasons with the international team, without the disruptive breaks in between).

In the context of this present thread, the need for continuity of selection can eventually lead to a paradox. For a new international manager coming in may decide that his young players need all the international experience they can get, so that he "fast-tracks" them into the national team. However, 4 or 5 years later, he will often be reluctant to select the next generation of young prospects, since he does not want to dispense with their predecessors. I'm open to correction, but wasn't that the case with Mick McCarthy?

I do know that Billy Bingham has that problem with NI during the 80's. From the late 70's, he gave caps to some (admittedly exceptional) youngsters, who gained enough valuable experience together to qualify for the 1982 World Cup, ahead of more obviously talented opponents. That team went on to reach their peak around 1983/4 (imo), when they beat the mighty W.Germany home and away in the European Qualifiers.

Anyhow, after those Euro Qualifiers, Bingham had a difficult choice. The likes of Jennings, Armstrong and McIlroy were now past their best and should be being replaced, but had bags of invaluable experience. Whereas their likely replacements were too callow to be thrown in en masse. In the end, Bingham stuck with the Old Guard, who still had enough left in the tank to get us to Mexico, which probably justified his call.

Unfortunately, however, they ran out of gas by the time they got there, performing only moderately. Worse, following the subsequent clear-out, he was forced to select far more inexperienced youngsters in his team than he would normally like, and they never quite reached former heights.

In the context of Trappatoni, I suspect his present conservatism of selection is informed by the fact that he'll likely be leaving after 2012. Therefore some other bugger can worry about integrating youngsters like McCarthy into the team, in order to qualify for Brazil 2014 etc.

[Stuttgart88]

The whole thing is a man-management & communications / PR fiasco. Trap, his advisors and the FAI have to share the blame. The Irish press likes nothing more than to undermine the team and its chances. The FAI should be aware of this and give the press no opportunity whatsoever. Instead they seem blissfully ignorant of the sensitivities of this issue and its potential to create instability and they have given the press and the rumour mongers carte blanche to stir things up.

I honestly think that if the FAI was in any way concerned McCarthy could jump ship they would have been cynical enough to have him capped properly by now, notwithstanding Liam Brady's ignorance of the rules in Febraury 2010.

[SwanVsDalton]

The whole thing is a man-management & communications / PR fiasco. Trap, his advisors and the FAI have to share the blame. The Irish press likes nothing more than to undermine the team and its chances. The FAI should be aware of this and give the press no opportunity whatsoever. Instead they seem blissfully ignorant of the sensitivities of this issue and its potential to create instability and they have given the press and the rumour mongers carte blanche to stir things up.

I honestly think that if the FAI was in any way concerned McCarthy could jump ship they would have been cynical enough to have him capped properly by now, notwithstanding Liam Brady's ignorance of the rules in Febraury 2010.

I agree the FAI/Trap etc could've handled this a little better, but when it comes to the media and rumour mongers you can't clear up every bloody little thing. Is it too much to ask that people use a little common sense over idle speculation? I mean do people really need to be spoon fed this much?

McCarthy has affirmed his commitment a bazillion times. Trap has confirmed he likes the player a bazillion times. But the last few pages have been nothing but 'sky-is-falling-aaargh!!!' hysteria based on nothing but very obvious media spin and total guesswork.

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, but the spin is unsettling and so the FAI should equalise before the media scores, to paraphrase Tommy Docherty (or whoever it was).

It has already led to Shay Given being critical of McCarthy's attitude, based on idle speculation. That's not immaterial.

[Noelys Guitar]

The local Wigan newspaper is reporting McCarthy's withdrawal as due to tiredness not injury.
http://www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-athletic/we_re_finally_getting_it_boyce_1_3055362 Second last paragraph. And I fully expect to see McCarthy and Keane (can't remember the last time Keane pulled out of an Ireland squad to later play for his club the following Saturday) playing on Saturday for their club sides.

[SwanVsDalton]

Yes, but the spin is unsettling and so the FAI should equalise before the media scores, to paraphrase Tommy Docherty (or whoever it was).

It has already led to Shay Given being critical of McCarthy's attitude, based on idle speculation. That's not immaterial.

Agreed. The situation's been handled badly and, for me, Given's comments were the most eye-raising thing about the whole thing. But it's telling Trap is getting more flak than Shay, even though he merely gave his usual vague, garbled but totally innocuous answer to a stock question.

Problem is the media will always find something to score with and people will queue up to believe it, regardless of veracity. There appears to be a large aspect of Irish support who want to believe McCarthy will defect/is having a feud with Trap despite there being no evidence to support either idea.

[SwanVsDalton]

The local Wigan newspaper is reporting McCarthy's withdrawal as due to tiredness not injury.
http://www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-athletic/we_re_finally_getting_it_boyce_1_3055362 Second last paragraph. And I fully expect to see McCarthy and Keane (can't remember the last time Keane pulled out of an Ireland squad to later play for his club the following Saturday) playing on Saturday for their club sides.

Interesting but a single paragraph at the end doesn't necessarily indicate any inside line to the truth. Very likely it's a copy and paste job from the first media reports.

[Stuttgart88]

And I fully expect to see McCarthy and Keane (can't remember the last time Keane pulled out of an Ireland squad to later play for his club the following Saturday) playing on Saturday for their club sides.Tuesday games don't help. Keane played and got injured on Sunday, misses game on Tuesday but is OK for Saturday. No big deal. Maybe he is hacked off at the regime but I don't think him missing a match in these circumstances is telling in any way.

[Noelys Guitar]

Tuesday games don't help. Keane played and got injured on Sunday, misses game on Tuesday but is OK for Saturday. No big deal. Maybe he is hacked off at the regime but I don't think him missing a match in these circumstances is telling in any way.

Here is Trapatonni in his own words on Keane moving clubs.

Trapattoni acknowledged it would be a big move to drop his captain, but he cannot afford to enter important games with a ring-rusty front man.

"I have said it is important to him that he goes and plays," said Trapattoni. "If he stays two months on the bench without a game, we have also (Kevin) Doyle, we have (Shane) Long. Anthony Stokes and Leon Best score goals.

"We have this situation, but I hope he tries a new team. If Robbie does not find a new team, we can try other options after.

"I spoke with him, when he could go to America (he was linked to Canadian-based MLS side, Vancouver Whitecaps), and I said, 'you go.' He said to me also, 'Maybe I go to Birmingham, the first I go to is Aston Villa.'

He compounded that by saying the next day that Keane's situation was different from Given's in that Keane is an outfield player and Given is a goalkeeper. How do those comments help the team? What was gained by publicly stating that Keane could be dropped if he didn't make a move? Why do think Keane reacted the way he did to that innane question from the RTE journo.

[paul_oshea]

Craig bellamy went to the game.injured. :-))

sending out all the right signals according to sky sports

[seanfhear]

I am not going to worry until James buys a pink Range Rover. Then I am going to go into Pink Range Rover overdrive worry.

In fairness the lad is good enough to be in the qualifer squads if not the team. He should be in the next qualifer squad if fit and if for whatever reason he does not show up then we would have to question whether he is interested in playing international football ( a valid question with todays footballers for whatever reasons) or whether he is interested in playing for Trap ?

[irishultra]

paul green keith andrews and glenn whelan all have started for ireland..he is more than good enough to be in the irish team...

[SkStu]

James who?

3-0 lads - ole, ole, ole, ole! ole, ole!

[geysir]

Sadlier on RTE last night said that even if Trap calls up McCarthy for the Macedonia game, he won't play him out of spite.
That tells more about Sadlier's mentality than an experienced coach like Trap.
If Trap doesn't start with McCarthy in the next game, it would probably be due to his overly cautious and patient approach.

[Qwerty]

Gio pleeza shudupadahface! The more you dig the deeper hole.

[Kingdom]

Trap's press conference today was highlighted on six one news. Commented on James McCarthy should be making his own mind, not listening to his agent. Also mentioned unfortunately that he likes Scotland and likes Ireland and that he should make his own decision. A comment like that will not help anyone.

Say it is all a big misunderstanding and James is part of the squad for Macedonia and Uruguay at the end of March. Is it more of a risk to give McCarthy his first start in a must-win qualifier or to stick with Whelan/Gibson and then give James three on the trot (uruguay/scots/nire) with the outlook of starting away to Macedonia?

[paul_oshea]

So is Geysir wrong then?is James unsure according to trappatoni?

[elroy]

Jesus Trap, shut up for fcuk sake. He is ours, he has gone through alot to declare for us, he is not going to change. Comparing him to S Ireland or O'Hara/Noble is nothing short of ridiculous and insulting to James. James is more of an Irishman than SI will ever be.

Now stop been an ass spouting some half arsed english half italian, confusing everyone and only causing trouble....just call the lad up and put him in our midfield. End of.

[The Fly]

.....

[Drumcondra 69er]

Poison pen Hyland stirring it big time in the print edition of the Herald tonight again, 2 page spread on it.

Media really need to butt out, all it's doing is making the issue bigger then it should be.

[rebelmusic]

Christ, Trap should call him up for Macedonia, cap him in the 85th and end all this madness!!!

[ArdeeBhoy]

To be honest he's good, but not that good, FFS.

Whether you like them or not, it would have been of far more relevance in the WC campaign if Trap. had brought back A.Reid & Ireland into the fold and used them both sparingly, rather than relying on extreme functionality. And even now, as we're still crying out for MIDFIELD CREATIVITY v. better teams, which even the 'genius' of Trap can't outdo....

If McCarthy's our "great white hope", we might as well give up.
Ciaran Clark has potentially far far more of a pivotal role to play for us in the next decade than McCarthy, excellent addition that he could be....

[cavan_fan]

To be honest he's good, but not that good, FFS.

Whether you like them or not, it would have been of far more relevance in the WC campaign if Trap. had brought back A.Reid & Ireland into the fold and used them both sparingly, rather than relying on extreme functionality. And even now, as we're still crying out for MIDFIELD CREATIVITY v. better teams, which even the 'genius' of Trap can't outdo....

If McCarthy's our "great white hope", we might as well give up.
Ciaran Clark has potentially far far more of a pivotal role to play for us in the next decade than McCarthy, excellent addition that he could be....

For the last time surely, Stephen Ireland is not available, you may as well ask why he hasn't called up Liam Brady or Lionel Messi

[ArdeeBhoy]

I said in the last campaign. And he is 'available', just choosing not to play for reasons of, er, 'mental health'.

[rebelmusic]

Steven Ireland was never going to play. Andy Reid is very much a luxury player that teams have to be built around. He's not good enough for that status.

In the last year McCarthy has been better than those two by a long mile!

[tetsujin1979]

Poison pen Hyland stirring it big time in the print edition of the Herald tonight again, 2 page spread on it.

Media really need to butt out, all it's doing is making the issue bigger then it should be.

Exactly,it's a non-story that's being blown out of all possible proportion for whatever reason
Despite 3 debutants, 2 spectacular goals, and the win itself, all the questions in the press conference seems to be about a player who isn't there!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Steven Ireland was never going to play. Andy Reid is very much a luxury player that teams have to be built around. He's not good enough for that status.

In the last year McCarthy has been better than those two by a long mile!

That's as maybe. But doesn't say much for McCarthy either. His team are hardly setting the PL alight and must be odds on to be relegated despite the table being so close.
Still wish him well, especially for Ireland, but think people should be prepared to be disappointed unless he gets a v.high profile move, to undoubtedly become a squad player at a bigger club.

[Stuttgart88]

What did Hyland say tonight?

All I could find was Giles' sensible article. Everything except his opinion on JOS's performance was bang on in my opinion.

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/john-giles/john-giles-trap-should-give-mac-a-call-2532618.html

[elroy]

No one is saying McCarthy is going to be the messiah, but he has the potential to be a top player and deserves to be in the squad. He is our ONLY regular EPL starter centre midfielder.


I would argue we require a solid assertive centre midfielder who can play the simple pass and is comfortable on the ball more so than a particularly creative midfielder right now.

[Drumcondra 69er]

What did Hyland say tonight?

All I could find was Giles' sensible article. Everything except his opinion on JOS's performance was bang on in my opinion.e
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/john-giles/john-giles-trap-should-give-mac-a-call-2532618.html

Hyland had a two page spread in the print edition full of inaccuracies bitching about Trap's treatment of Andy Reid, Stephen Reid, Stephen Ireland, Robbie Kaane, Gibson and McCarthy.

Press conference is on the 6-One news
http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1091235

About 41 mins in. Looking at the inerview with Trap I don't like seeing what he's saying. But it sounds like someone, whether it be McCarthy or his agent, has mentioned Scotland, I doubt that Trap's just oulling it out of the sky.

And I have to question again why the hell journos are asking the exact same questions they asked the other day when they'd already been answered, they know full well that sort of carry on drives Trap mad, all it does is antagonise him. It did Andy Reid no favours and it's really not helping this situation either, there were plenty of positives they could have focussed on, getting well ****ed off with it now....

And he's right about Gibson, look at what happened Liam Miller when he stagnated in the reserves at Man U, Gibson needs more game time then he gets at this stage of his career.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe, but Gibson say must be on a par with him, status wise. And what about Wilson? Different sorts of players granted, but Wigan surely can't hang on too much longer in the PL?

[LFCSixty/Eighty]

Just listened to extended clips of Traps press conference from this morning on the Off the Ball show, and anyone that thinks the 'media' is at fault for this fiasco needs to hear what he has been saying to realize that Trap has only himself to blame for all this.

He should not be let near a microphone when it comes to speaking about not just McCarthy but any sensitive issue. Rabbiting on about agents becoming involved trying to turn the players head and not speaking to him because when he did that with another player it made matters worse.

The man is a walking disaster when it comes to these speaking to the media regarding anything other than naming the team. He has no tact and he is obviously not taking/attending any English lessons, which is making things even worse. How long can this crazy situation go on before we lose another player! Somebody in the PR department of the FAI has to take control of the situation surely.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm. PR Dept & FAI are not words that fit comfortably??

[paul_oshea]

Just listened to extended clips of Traps press conference from this morning on the Off the Ball show, and anyone that thinks the 'media' is at fault for this fiasco needs to hear what he has been saying to realize that Trap has only himself to blame for all this.

He should not be let near a microphone when it comes to speaking about not just McCarthy but any sensitive issue. Rabbiting on about agents becoming involved trying to turn the players head and not speaking to him because another when he did that with another player it turned out to be a disaster.

The man is a walking disaster when it comes to these speaking to the media regarding anything other than naming the team. He has no tact and he is obviously not taking/attending any English lessons, which is making things even worse. How long can this crazy situation go on before we lose another player! Somebody in the PR department of the FAI has to take control of the situation surely.

I think thats the clearest and most precise post on this whole thing so far. Over the last few days by the sounds of things he does seem to be like a rambling old man.

But, it doesn't have to do with his English. He doesn't say something like !"james likes scotland, he likes ireland" and mean "james club told me he was injured". He knows what he is saying. Whether there is any truth in it is another matter entirely or just the rambling musings of a near senile old man :D

[Stuttgart88]

McArthur just asked about the McCarthy defection rumour on SKY. He batted the question back, but was breaking into a smirk at the same time.

[LFCSixty/Eighty]

Fair comment :-) but I'd take Delaney coming out with a statement at the moment, rather than have Trap blabbling on....even if English is neither of their first language.

[The Fly]

McArthur just asked about the McCarthy defection rumour on SKY. He batted the question back, but was breaking into a smirk at the same time.

I expect the thread to break the 100 page mark by midnight.

[SwanVsDalton]

Trap - "Anything about McCarthy."

Cue hysterics.

[Junior]

The lad alongside McArthur just whispered "tell the truth". Sensible and probably truthful answer from McArthur - He knows fcukall but Fly you are probably right cue pages of pages of nonsense on this issue.

Wonder why Levein wasnt asked the same question?

[Stuttgart88]

I dunno. The "he likes Ireland, he likes Scotland. He must decide himself" quote is causing me concern.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The words 'near senile old man' ring true.
McCarthy's good, but far far more bothered about Clark being on board.

[Junior]

And I have to question again why the hell journos are asking the exact same questions they asked the other day when they'd already been answered, they know full well that sort of carry on drives Trap mad, all it does is antagonise him. It did Andy Reid no favours and it's really not helping this situation either, there were plenty of positives they could have focussed on, getting well ****ed off with it now....

Because they dont really care whether McCarthy is capped or not nor indeed if Andy Reid or Stephen Ireland was called back in to the fold - The bigger story would be Trap giving a nice expletive ridden outburst to one of the said journos (ala his time at Bayern) and that would be a far bigger and better story than anything else.........