League of Ireland in Europe 2016

[pineapple stu]

So as El-Pietro suggested, you have literally no reasons behind your suggestions, and you're basically throwing out the first thing that occurs to you without any sort of rational consideration of it.

Glad that's agreed at least.

[legendz]

So as El-Pietro suggested, you have literally no reasons behind your suggestions, and you're basically throwing out the first thing that occurs to you without any sort of rational consideration of it.

Glad that's agreed at least.
Ahem:

I would like to see league champions having the guarantee of more European games. European experience is beneficial. An advantage of being league champions should be more opportunities in Europe.

[White Horse]

Dundalk have risen almost 100 places in the UEFA rankings; 359 to 266.

http://www.ecaeurope.com/tabbed-content/club-ranking/

[Real ale Madrid]

So as El-Pietro suggested, you have literally no reasons behind your suggestions, and you're basically throwing out the first thing that occurs to you without any sort of rational consideration of it.

Glad that's agreed at least.

FFS reel it in. What is wrong with guaranteed Champs or Europa league for champions of their respective countries, maybe top 35 ranked associations? There was once upon a time that the champions of a league actually meant something in Europe. Lets be honest here the Europa league is a makey uppy competition anyway no more than the so called "champions" league. UEFA make up the rules for entry as they go along anyway with their only regard to make as much money as possible for the top teams, not any so called regard for the health of the sport in the whole of the continent, which by the way, is supposed to be their primary remit. None of Ledgenz' proposals would make the competitions any more disjointed and made up than they are already. I mean UCD qualified last year due to a fair play league??? Whats that about?

[legendz]

It's just something I feel would be fair. Reading about changes to come in, it's disgraceful that there's a lack of balance in return.

When Dundalk went out to BATE last year, if they had entered ELQ3 there's a good chance they might have made the playoffs at least. That would have been positive for the league. In previous years as well there's a good chance the league's champion in a similar situation might have made the playoffs. It would have prolonged the league's interest in Europe.

Countries that have their league champions enter CLQ1 or CLQ2 might see all their European representatives out after one round. In the current structures it's very harsh on those leagues. Some champions knocked out prior to CLQ3 are good enough to make the EL playoffs. I for one think changes should be brought in to give them that opportunity.

While small associations are losing influence in the Champions League, they should be capable of gaining more influence in the Europa League in return.

The Europa League is held in a higher regard in the continent than those influenced by England's contempt for the competition.

The 38 countries that have league champions entering before CLQ3 together represent a sizeable chunk of the European tv audience. On one hand it shouldn't be beyond them to exert some influence for some changes in their favour. On another hand though if they did get together, some divide and conquer approach would probably split them. The signs are that they are inept in influencing change.

Scotland and Ireland however were to the fore in getting the European championship expanded to 24 teams. It would be a positive change to hear noises from the FAI and SFA lobbying for their champions to enter the Europa League qualifiers should they fall at an early CL qualifier hurdle. Sadly these small associations are inept.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Oh legendz please give it a rest.

Yes it's crap how smaller clubs are treated but to be honest its all about the big clubs and the core uefa sponsors who fund it all. If smaller associations kicked up they would be laughed at out the door and then what can they afford no euro money injection into their league.

As far as uefa are concerned the only European audiences are England Spain Germany Italy France and russia. The rest they couldn't give a sh1t about. Besides England with the epl deal with sky those countries need the CL money. England doesn't with the sky deal as I believe the lowest tanked ream revieves what the winners would get of the CL.

[White Horse]

OK. Hands up, who did this?

Last Thursday night, a group of Irish hacks in Alkmaar were accosted by a Dundalk supporter. He marked the end of his special evening by going along the line and asking each person their employer, before adding words of abuse or praise dependent on how that organisation covered the domestic sphere.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/daniel-mcdonnell-exposure-for-dundalk-is-a-battle-well-worth-fighting-35059104.html

[pineapple stu]

Oh legendz please give it a rest.

Yes it's crap how smaller clubs are treated but to be honest its all about the big clubs and the core uefa sponsors who fund it all. If smaller associations kicked up they would be laughed at out the door and then what can they afford no euro money injection into their league.
This. Once again.


As far as uefa are concerned the only European audiences are England Spain Germany Italy France and russia. The rest they couldn't give a sh1t about.
I'm not sure if I agree with this necessarily. UEFA do a fair bit for the smaller countries in fairness. Look at solidarity income for example. Or even at the fact that Dundalk had the chance to be within a goal of the CL group stages, or that UCD were in the same pool of the same draw as Bilbao last year. The UEFA.com website is excellent; it would have talked that up no end. I think the likes of Belgium, Holland, Ukraine, Denmark, etc, do add to the TV pot when their champions are in the competition - not hugely, but enough that UEFA still want them included.

If the LoI wants to be taken more seriously at European club level though, it'll have to improve itself. Plaintive whines to UEFA that "it isn't fair" are completely worthless.

[pineapple stu]

UEFA make up the rules for entry as they go along anyway with their only regard to make as much money as possible for the top teams, not any so called regard for the health of the sport in the whole of the continent, which by the way, is supposed to be their primary remit. None of Ledgenz' proposals would make the competitions any more disjointed and made up than they are already. I mean UCD qualified last year due to a fair play league??? Whats that about?
As noted, UEFA do a huge amount for the sport across the whole of the continent in fairness. It doesn't have to be even, but the LoI gets a lot out of UEFA.

Legendz' suggestions are typical legendz suggestions, without a trace of having been thought through or argued out. Seriously, why should the group stages be regionalised?

I've always agreed the Fair Play thingy was silly.

[legendz]

Taking counter argument and dismissive posts into account, it's not beyond smaller associations to get league champions knocked out in CLQ1 and CLQ2 entered into the EL qualifiers.

[pineapple stu]

Taking counter argument and dismissive posts into account
Translation - "Ignoring everything everyone else is saying"...

[legendz]

Translation - "Ignoring everything everyone else is saying"...Haha, if that's how you want to read it, fair enough! ;)

[legendz]

I'm not aware of any official word from UEFA yet on the update to the access list.

Speculation is that more teams will start off in CLQ1, 4 teams will come through the champions route and 2 teams from the league route.

A combination of more teams starting in CLQ1 and less teams entering the EL from CLQ3 and the CL playoff round will naturally create space in ELQ2 and ELQ3 for league champions to be included.

Unfortunately as many point out, UEFA will probably be most unlikely to utilise space freed up in favour of lower ranking teams.

[BonnieShels]

Dundalk have risen almost 100 places in the UEFA rankings; 359 to 266.

http://www.ecaeurope.com/tabbed-content/club-ranking/

MAD:

266 Dundalk 0.200 0.050 0.900 1.140 2.425 4.715
267 Rangers FC 2.050 0.860 0.650 0.800 0.600 4.960
267 Aalesunds FK 1.980 0.520 0.440 1.450 0.275 4.665
268 Hibernian 0.860 1.150 0.800 0.600 1.225 4.635
268 Dundee United 1.860 0.650 0.800 0.600 0.725 4.635

[nigel-harps1954]

Don't let anyone ever tell you the Scottish Premiership is that much better than the LOI Premier. Remember that those Scottish sides have a far higher country coefficient to start them off too.

[sbgawa]

MAD:

266 Dundalk 0.200 0.050 0.900 1.140 2.425 4.715
267 Rangers FC 2.050 0.860 0.650 0.800 0.600 4.960
267 Aalesunds FK 1.980 0.520 0.440 1.450 0.275 4.665
268 Hibernian 0.860 1.150 0.800 0.600 1.225 4.635
268 Dundee United 1.860 0.650 0.800 0.600 0.725 4.635

surprised to see Rovers only 10 odd places behind at 4.42 in position 279.......the points from the good old days are still helping : )
Thank God UEFA are going to take a ten year view from next season

[sbgawa]

Don't let anyone ever tell you the Scottish Premiership is that much better than the LOI Premier. Remember that those Scottish sides have a far higher country coefficient to start them off too.

Could'nt agree more Dundalk would have beaten Celtic

[sadloserkid]

Do you know what would fix all the ills of European football in a heartbeat? A pyramid structure.

[legendz]

Do you know what would fix all the ills of European football in a heartbeat? A pyramid structure.
The Europa League winner now qualifies for the Champions League! ;)

[Mr A]

I don't think the fact that the best team our league has produced in decades is ranked higher than a club just making its way back through the divisions after reformation and another two in the second tier really proves that much.

Scotland has fully professional status, massive crowds compared to ours, night and day better infrastructure, not to mention the five or so Scottish clubs well ahead of Dundalk in the rankings. If we could get remotely close to the state of the Scottish domestic game I would be delighted.

[seand]

The Europa League winner now qualifies for the Champions League! ;)

... and you think Stephen Kenny is moaning about fixture congestion now....

[El-Pietro]

I don't think the fact that the best team our league has produced in decades is ranked higher than a club just making its way back through the divisions after reformation and another two in the second tier really proves that much.

Scotland has fully professional status, massive crowds compared to ours, night and day better infrastructure, not to mention the five or so Scottish clubs well ahead of Dundalk in the rankings. If we could get remotely close to the state of the Scottish domestic game I would be delighted.
I'd fancy Cork City and Dundalk to beat any Scottish team not named Celtic in a competitive fixture, and we'd both give Celtic a run for their money.

[pineapple stu]

There does seem to be something seriously wrong with Scottish football in fairness. Some of the smaller SPL sides have nice set ups, but the bigger sides seem to waste their money on crap imports. I don't know why the bigger clubs are getting less return on the extra money.

Wouldn't read much into the stats above as Dundalk have more European campaigns than the teams around them

[nigel-harps1954]

If the League of Ireland had the resources of Scottish football..

[fionnsci]

The system as it is (Irish champions only needing to get through CLQ2 in order to get two bites at the cherry of EL Group Stage) for another year anyway gives a fairly decent chance at making the EL group stage, I'm disappointed not more clubs have succeeded since Rovers did it. I've been hoping that Cork pop Dundalk to the title this year to give them a shot at securing the same resources that Dundalk now have (or even half of same given that their ground is already sufficient).

Having two clubs with those kind of resources, along with recent Rovers investment, redevelopment of Dalymount, Markets Field and positive signs for football in our third city, centre of excellence in Cork, National under 19, 17 and 15 leagues, and Euro 2016 improving the FAI's financial position (slightly) would make for what should be seen as a very slight upward trajectory for football in this country. Yes, it's not enough and the public largely still don't give a **** but there are enough projects on the cards to make me fairly optimistic about the future.

Side question, IF Cork manage to win the league, is there any hope of a seeding in the CLQ2 - perhaps if Dundalk force up the national coefficient in the interim?

[Louth4sam]

Side question, IF Cork manage to win the league, is there any hope of a seeding in the CLQ2 - perhaps if Dundalk force up the national coefficient in the interim?

None. Dundalk need to get at least another win to be seeded next year. Possibly a win and a draw.

Cork have no chance, it'll be difficult for Dundalk

[El-Pietro]

We would need Dundalk to win the Europa League and even then we probably still wouldn't be seeded!

[Nesta99]

The system as it is (Irish champions only needing to get through CLQ2 in order to get two bites at the cherry of EL Group Stage) for another year anyway gives a fairly decent chance at making the EL group stage, I'm disappointed not more clubs have succeeded since Rovers did it. I've been hoping that Cork pop Dundalk to the title this year to give them a shot at securing the same resources that Dundalk now have (or even half of same given that their ground is already sufficient).

Having two clubs with those kind of resources, along with recent Rovers investment, redevelopment of Dalymount, Markets Field and positive signs for football in our third city, centre of excellence in Cork, National under 19, 17 and 15 leagues, and Euro 2016 improving the FAI's financial position (slightly) would make for what should be seen as a very slight upward trajectory for football in this country. Yes, it's not enough and the public largely still don't give a **** but there are enough projects on the cards to make me fairly optimistic about the future.

Side question, IF Cork manage to win the league, is there any hope of a seeding in the CLQ2 - perhaps if Dundalk force up the national coefficient in the interim?

In relative terms if Cork (who should have been in a stronger position for their home EL with Genk) had progressed to EL PO and then groups, due to not needing an entirely new ground would have been in similar or better off financially in being able to invest the money in an academy, training ground, squad etc than Dundalk arguably. Dundalk have the money from CL already spent playing catch-up on infrastructure. So I agree with the getting half of the type of money Dundalk got for Cork but not pipping to the Title :p Obviously this will suit me as a Dundalk fan but I would like to see if the progress made this year can be can be sustained or even built on. Especially if Dundalk achieve a win to get the 4th point that might offer seeding in the qualifying round entered. But another pop at the CL before restructuring happens (is it next season or season after) i'd want to see the club with the best chance of doing something in the CL - I obviously feel that is Dundalk assuming we are not weakened significantly with the loss of players to transfers ETC. There is plenty to be more positive about these days (did licensing work is some weird ways) and it is all the more pleasing or indeed impressive that it was done without and despite the FAI! I cant see Cork being seeded in CL Q2 unless Dundalk pull off a series of wins in to the last 32 and well beyond.

[legendz]

The system as it is (Irish champions only needing to get through CLQ2 in order to get two bites at the cherry of EL Group Stage) for another year anyway gives a fairly decent chance at making the EL group stage
Since the champions route came in in 2009, LoI champions have gotten through CLQ2 in 2 out of 8 years.

[fionnsci]

Since the champions route came in in 2009, LoI champions have gotten through CLQ2 in 2 out of 8 years.

A disappointing return as I alluded to above. Is your point that the current system doesn't offer a good chance of Europa League Group Stage qualification? We've had two teams achieve it in the last 5 years.

If Dundalk came second this year, does anyone know what kind of situation they'd be looking at in the Europa League? What round, seeding etc. I'd happily research it myself but I'm not really sure where to start! Trying to get all my info together before deciding who exactly I think want to win the league.

[sparky12345678]

the contribution that Dundalk makes is still only a fraction...

As someone said, Dundalk would probably need to win the thing and even then...
At present we have 8.5 points for this year; I calculated what it would be like if Dundalk got the league haul up to 28.5 points... which is ahem 10 more wins still only gives them 3.465 for next year. Still not enough to be seeded. They dont pick up bonus points til the quarter finals... So far as I see it, even winning the thing wouldnt boost the league part up enough.

While the league co-efficient part is a good incentive it only really starts to improve if a second or third team gets a decent haul that year plus one good year is not enough for clubs, they need a consistent 2 or 3 years of an average-to-good haul for it to show. (look at what will happen to Celtic if they fail to get any points this year... they will drop below AZ in the rankings for 2018... although the 10 year consideration will change that further along also).
Had Cork beaten Genk, and had a decent showing against Lokomotiva (who clearly werent great shakes either if Genk knocked them out) things might be healthier for Cork then to benefit from the improved league co-efficient although Cork's has a notably worse record over these last 5 years than Dundalk making it difficult even then.

[legendz]

A disappointing return as I alluded to above. Is your point that the current system doesn't offer a good chance of Europa League Group Stage qualification? We've had two teams achieve it in the last 5 years.When the champions route came in I would have thought the average of LoI teams getting through to CLQ3 would have been 1 in 2 years as opposed to 1 in 4 years.

There is some speculation that around 30 teams might enter CLQ1 when the access list is updated later in the year and Europa League entry might be extended to CLQ2 losers.

Our league's champion tends to be in and around 5 places of a seeding in the current CLQ2. If the speculation on 30 teams entering CLQ1 is accurate, LoI champions will most likely be seeding in CLQ1.

Since UEFA gave the top leagues more direct qualification to the Europa League, we've had 3 teams starting off in ELQ1. LoI teams by and large have negotiated ELQ1 fairly well. LoI champions in the mooted CLQ1 should have similar success, possibly guaranteeing a place in ELQ3 at the very least. While the champions league route will be getting narrower, the Europa League door could be opening a bit for the league's champion.

[Charlie Darwin]

If the League of Ireland had the resources of Scottish football..
Anto Flood would be a millionaire.

[El-Pietro]

the contribution that Dundalk makes is still only a fraction...

As someone said, Dundalk would probably need to win the thing and even then...
At present we have 8.5 points for this year; I calculated what it would be like if Dundalk got the league haul up to 28.5 points... which is ahem 10 more wins still only gives them 3.465 for next year. Still not enough to be seeded. They dont pick up bonus points til the quarter finals... So far as I see it, even winning the thing wouldnt boost the league part up enough.

While the league co-efficient part is a good incentive it only really starts to improve if a second or third team gets a decent haul that year plus one good year is not enough for clubs, they need a consistent 2 or 3 years of an average-to-good haul for it to show. (look at what will happen to Celtic if they fail to get any points this year... they will drop below AZ in the rankings for 2018... although the 10 year consideration will change that further along also).
Had Cork beaten Genk, and had a decent showing against Lokomotiva (who clearly werent great shakes either if Genk knocked them out) things might be healthier for Cork then to benefit from the improved league co-efficient although Cork's has a notably worse record over these last 5 years than Dundalk making it difficult even then.
We wouldn't have been seeded so we'd have had a tougher draw than Genk. Genk were one of the highest ranked teams we could draw in the third round. Second highest I think. For the playoff round the draw wasn't made until after all qualifiers were known so we couldn't carry Genk coefficient through to the next round.

[sparky12345678]

fair enough. In the end Cork did reasonably well this year (especially compared with other years), beating two teams nominally ranked higher. Its a pity Rovers didnt get through and Pats also got a tough draw and just missed out as well.
We should be hoping/aiming for at least 2 teams in the 3rd QR (although i see that most irish teams would be unseeded here also) and a bit of luck to sneak a win to get through to the playoff..

[nigel-harps1954]

The only thing that was going to improve the co-efficient by any great leap was every team getting through at least one round and every team winning at least one game in the process all over the 5 year period. With the new incoming rules though, the chat of co-efficient could be a thing of the past.

[jinxy lilywhite]

The luck of the draw though is a huge factor. For instance if we hadn't of gotten the lowest rank seed in Qr2 could we of gotten through.

In the qualifying rounds there are so many uncontrollable factors that make it difficult to gauge how we are doing against other leagues or on our progressions

[legendz]

We should be hoping/aiming for at least 2 teams in the 3rd QR (although i see that most irish teams would be unseeded here also) and a bit of luck to sneak a win to get through to the playoff..
All 3 EL representatives should be making ELQ2 at the very least. CLQ2 and ELQ2 have been tricky, doable but tough to get through. Across both competitions it would be great to see at least 2 make Q3 consistently.

[El-Pietro]

All 3 EL representatives should be making ELQ2 at the very least. CLQ2 and ELQ2 have been tricky, doable but tough to get through. Across both competitions it would be great to see at least 2 make Q3 consistently.

Why should all 3 be making the second round at the very least? What if we're not seeded? You know the teams we face want to win as well right?

[Ezeikial]

You know the teams we face want to win as well right?

Only sometimes. Ask the Sligo lads

[legendz]

Why should all 3 be making the second round at the very least? What if we're not seeded? You know the teams we face want to win as well right?
Review LoI performances in ELQ1 since 3 teams have been starting in that round. Obviously their Q1 opponents will want to win as well.

[El-Pietro]

Review LoI performances in ELQ1 since 3 teams have been starting in that round. Obviously their Q1 opponents will want to win as well.
So... you are agreeing with me? I'm sorry I don't know what you have added here?

[sparky12345678]

well this year two teams were seeded. Cork City werent and progressed. This QR1 is quite interesting, the higher seeds come from leagues ranked nominally better than us but an irish team shouldnt be scared to try to take them on (I notice that Maccabi started in this round this year also but both other israeli representatives were eliminated; Israel are ed; one of the lower ranked league in EL group stages bar ireland but have two representatives in the Europa league but they arent exactly miles ahead of the irish league... lets hope :D edit: Azerbajan also have 2 representatives and are ranked slightly lower than Israel).
In fact Irish teams should be aiming to be seeded at the very least in this round (and in the Champions League, it wasnt that long ago when clubs were closer to that line). All 3 should have qualified this year to QR2. Cork did well to qualify and it was a pity Pats didnt here. 2 teams into QR3 is a decent "hope". and with a bit of luck 1 gets into the playoff round to join our league champion (unless they pull a Dundalk).

[legendz]

So... you are agreeing with me? I'm sorry I don't know what you have added here?
I don't know what you are adding here?

[Dodge]

All 3 should have qualified this year to QR2. Cork did well to qualify and it was a pity Pats didnt here.
Pats did...

[pineapple stu]

I don't know what you are adding here?
The LoI record in Europe in the past few years in no way supports your theory that we should be able to target 3/3 progressing through QR1 of the Europa League every year.

[Real ale Madrid]

The LoI record in Europe in the past few years in no way supports your theory that we should be able to target 3/3 progressing through QR1 of the Europa League every year.

So past failure means we should lower our future targets

[El-Pietro]

So past failure means we should lower our future targets

Nothing wrong with aiming high, but Legedz just said:


All 3 EL representatives should be making ELQ2 at the very least.

I don't see that as realistic. Ideally wed have teams in the group stages every year, but were a long way from that.

[pineapple stu]

So past failure means we should lower our future targets
Where did I say that?

I simply disagreed with legendz who said that the LoI's recent record in Europe means we should (my emphasis) have all three teams getting through the first round of the Europa League.

That simply doesn't follow.

[Real ale Madrid]

Where did I say that?


I was referring to your post here.


The LoI record in Europe in the past few years in no way supports your theory that we should be able to target 3/3 progressing through QR1 of the Europa League every year.

Saying that we should get 3/3 through QR1 seems a reasonable target to set to me. Rovers should have completed the trio this year. It actually seems quite a reasonable thing to aspire to if the FAI was doing something like a strategic plan!