Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[ontheotherhand]

Think a lot of people in football would say the exact same things about players coming out of Ireland in truth.

That they are powerful but unintelligent and undisciplined? I don't think I've ever heard anything like that. Direct maybe, hardworking maybe, physical definitely but none of those terms juxtaposed with mental capacity or another race in an unfavourable way. I wouldn't like it if it was said about Irish football players.

[Razors left peg]

OK… so which viable candidates do we have left who meet the conditions of Canhams statement (April contractual commitments), without being overly creative (looking at you Razor!)

- Sagnol (did some research on him yesterday, it would be a fascinating appointment really - things there I like but as ES points out a lot of ho hum)
- Poyet (i do think it might be him but it’s such a risky appointment for a very conservative FAI leadership - would be a wild rollercoaster ride)
- Anderrson (doesn’t really meet Canhams comment but his own comments are a tease, who knows what restrictions there might have been when he stepped down from Sweden. His style suits our culture)

Who else? Hard to see how it’s Barry - though his current roles are fairly narrow in scope and he may fancy the full meal deal.

I'd rather keep the current team in charge than those options tbh. I want someone who knows our players, not someone with pre conceived notions of Little Ireland like Trap. Maybe I'm just burned out on the whole thing but whoever it is at this point I can't wait for it to be over and we can move on to picking apart the man's every decision and blaming him for all the woes of Irish football

[JR89]

OK… so which viable candidates do we have left who meet the conditions of Canhams statement (April contractual commitments), without being overly creative (looking at you Razor!)

- Sagnol (did some research on him yesterday, it would be a fascinating appointment really - things there I like but as ES points out a lot of ho hum)
- Poyet (i do think it might be him but it’s such a risky appointment for a very conservative FAI leadership - would be a wild rollercoaster ride)
- Anderrson (doesn’t really meet Canhams comment but his own comments are a tease, who knows what restrictions there might have been when he stepped down from Sweden. His style suits our culture)

Who else? Hard to see how it’s Barry - though his current roles are fairly narrow in scope and he may fancy the full meal deal.



With Andersson his age and the fact he's never managed outside Sweden I don't think he'd be open to it. I don't see him being as open to the new job specs that the FAI want from the new head coach.

As for Willy Sagnol, even if he has plans to leave Georgia after this campaign I don't see him being in talks but talks so detailed that you've agreed terms while still in contention for the Euros.

As for Gus Poyet, if it was him we'd know about it because he'd have announced it himself or leaked it to the papers.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Sagnol is a racist - and to me it’s shocking that just after dumping the idea of hiring a man who threatened and intimidated a woman, the FAI are now apparently considering hiring a racist to run an international team with numerous black players in the squad.

There is a reason why Sagnol didn’t have a job for four years before getting the Georgia gig.

[NeverFeltBetter]

If looking for potential groundswell of support for JOS coming into being, interesting framing on this RTE article: https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2024/0324/1439717-oshea-provides-snapshot-of-bright-future-for-ireland/

"John O'Shea offered the Ireland fans a glimpse of what the future could be like if the former Manchester United man was handed the permanent position as national team manager."

[Razors left peg]

Sagnol is a racist - and to me it’s shocking that just after dumping the idea of hiring a man who threatened and intimidated a woman, the FAI are now apparently considering hiring a racist to run an international team with numerous black players in the squad.

There is a reason why Sagnol didn’t have a job for four years before getting the Georgia gig.

Would definitely rule him out for me anyway

[Eirambler]

That they are powerful but unintelligent and undisciplined? I don't think I've ever heard anything like that. Direct maybe, hardworking maybe, physical definitely but none of those terms juxtaposed with mental capacity or another race in an unfavourable way. I wouldn't like it if it was said about Irish football players.

That they're cheap, physically developed, will give their all, but generally extremely technically limited. A few other stereotypes still kicking around as well even to this day, but not as prevalent as they used to be thankfully.

I'm not defending Sagnol's comments by the way, he absolutely shouldn't have said them. Just pointing out that similar views exist of ourselves.

[pineapple stu]

That they're cheap, physically developed, will give their all, but generally extremely technically limited. A few other stereotypes still kicking around as well even to this day, but not as prevalent as they used to be thankfully.
Can be more than a hint of truth to those stereotypes too. The old "British football style" comments we hear about the national team too. We mightn't like them, but it doesn't mean they're wrong or even that we have a right to offence at them.

[Razors left peg]

Ffs lads let's not equate the Irish stereotype of hard working players and say it's similar to Africa. Firstly there are 54 individual countries in Africa so don't lump them all in as one, and more importantly as a continent Africa has produced some of the best players the world has ever seen. Anyone that says there is a stereotypical African player is a fcuking racist plain and simple

[ontheotherhand]

That they're cheap, physically developed, will give their all, but generally extremely technically limited. A few other stereotypes still kicking around as well even to this day, but not as prevalent as they used to be thankfully.

I'm not defending Sagnol's comments by the way, he absolutely shouldn't have said them. Just pointing out that similar views exist of ourselves.

Ah look I'm not saying you are at all. Just saying there's a way to interpret his words, the ones I picked out rather than the ones you have above, that makes them very similar to the typical racist tropes you hear. Adding in the Nordic reference makes it pretty clear to me where he is coming from.

It would turn me off the idea of him as manager. If it's even an idea...I've lost track of who is actually in the running versus who is a fever dream born out of our collective boredom.

[Olé Olé]

Sagnol is a racist - and to me it’s shocking that just after dumping the idea of hiring a man who threatened and intimidated a woman, the FAI are now apparently considering hiring a racist to run an international team with numerous black players in the squad.

There is a reason why Sagnol didn’t have a job for four years before getting the Georgia gig.

And I could be very wrong here now but I doubt there are many African migrants inwards for an old Soviet Union member country.

I don't think there are any players of African heritage in the current Georgia squad.

Whether there were any players of African heritage in the Georgia squad before Sagnol became manager might be a more instructive question to have answered. Again, I don't think so.

[pineapple stu]

. Anyone that says there is a stereotypical African player is a fcuking racist plain and simple
On the contrary - I think an interesting issue that arose with scouting for African players back in the early days of football globalisation is that scouts went looking for a particular type of player. I think it was the big physical striker - the Didier Drogba style player. But because that's what they were looking for - and what the clubs wanted/expected - that's what they found. They would have passed over technical midfielders, keepers, etc.

So it's entirely possible Sagnol's comments had some basis in fact. (I've no idea obviously) Often it's easier to take offence and dismiss someone as racist, but that doesn't mean it's correct. And I'm not saying it's not correct either. Just a bit of nuance can't do any harm.

The comments about the AFCON seem fine to me; other managers have made similar complaints.

For me, elatedscum's analysis of Sagnol's career is far more pertinent in terms of whether we want him as manager

[Razors left peg]

Nothing wrong with the AFCON comments but if you are still talking about a stereotypical African player in this day and age Ron Atkinson would love a pint and a chat with you

[pineapple stu]

But you've ignored my post. I'm suggesting that while there mayn't be such a thing as a stereotypical African player, there quite possibly was such a thing as a stereotypical African player who came through a scouting mechanism looking for a specific type of player.

[Diggs246]

Surly anyone who uses the "nordic" is into White supremacy!

[Razors left peg]

But you've ignored my post. I'm suggesting that while there mayn't be such a thing as a stereotypical African player, there quite possibly was such a thing as a stereotypical African player who came through a scouting mechanism looking for a specific type of player.

No, I didnt ignore your post, I dismissed your post as the bullsh1t it is. Any supposed stereotype of African players has come from racism. You can potentially say a certain country is stereotyped based on a style of football over the years , you can't do that for an entire Continent unless you lump them all together as one. How can you say Jay Jay Okocha is a similar Stereotype to Drogba, or George Weah to Salah. Players from there are as diverse as 54 different countries would be anywhere else.

If you are trying to make the argument that scouts today have an African player type in mind I think that says more about you than the football world at large

[CraftyToePoke]

I'm suggesting that while there mayn't be such a thing as a stereotypical African player, there quite possibly was such a thing as a stereotypical African player who came through a scouting mechanism looking for a specific type of player.

Suggesting it based on what ?

What you're saying bears no relation to what Sagnol actually did say & this scouting scenario you're putting up as to why he'd say it, well its news to me.

Seems a pretty oblique defensive angle to take on all this
rather than just call it out as wrong, offensive and hurtful. Which is what it was.

& it begs the question why you would seek ways of defending him on it also.

[SkStu]

I’m sure you’ve all googled it by now like I have. He apologized for his comments so they were obviously wrong.

The apology itself was a bit ham-fisted but he gave additional context to his words - in particular that his reference to intelligence was meant in a footballing sense rather than a racial or ethnic sense. His argument being that the youth coaching infrastructure there is not to par with what you’d get elsewhere (he used the Scandinavian system as a comparator) therefore the younger African players need that type of development when they’re signed. His opinion has a certain logic to it that I don’t think is racist. But how he said it originally was brutal and he rightly got called out on it.

[Diggs246]

I think you've being too nice

My take is he is saying African players are strong but thick

Nordic re white people are the smart players. His "clarification" was I guess to save his backside

I'd be very disappointed if we hired him. What kind of message would it send to our black players and to our African community as a whole.

[CraftyToePoke]

I think you've being too nice

My take is he is saying African players are strong but thick

Nordic re white people are the smart players. His "clarification" was I guess to save his backside

That's pretty much it.

Window dress it / rephrase it / revise it / clutch at straws to justify it all they like.

You know exactly what you're fu cking saying when you cite Nordic people over African ones.

[SkStu]

When you use “they”, I can’t help but feel you are referring to posters here, including myself? As individuals who are trying to justify racism? I hope not.

Maybe I’m naive but I happen to think that very few people are actually racist but that a lot of people say very stupid things. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt and let the punishment fit the crime.

But maybe I’m wrong and Willy is just a mad racist.

[Razors left peg]

Lads this is very simple. I know this is a forum for debate but this is not a debatable subject.

"The advantage of an African player is that he's cheap when you get him and ready to fight, but football isn't just about that. It's also about technique, intelligence, and discipline. You need to have it all."

That's a abhorrent statement no matter what way you try spin it, especially when he adds the Nordic part to make sure we knew what he meant. How do you think Bazunu, Idah, Obafemi, Ogbene, Ebosele or any young Irish lad of African descent would feel knowing their manager made that statement.

It's wrong and anyone defending it is simply wrong

[SkStu]

Just to be clear, I’ve used “clearly wrong” and “brutal” to describe his comments.

[Razors left peg]

Just to be clear, I’ve used “clearly wrong” and “brutal” to describe his comments.

And that's all that needs to be said here Stu, there's no different shades of grey. This is not a man we want in charge of our players.

I actually didn't know about these comments before today, or maybe I did and forgot, but either way he can fcuk off

[Olé Olé]

I understand that the apologized and offered context but the comments in the first place clearly came a bit too naturally to him given how truly stereotypical they were. I'm sure there is a broad spectrum of racism that the views of some white Frenchman of his age might align to but the fact that he made it onto that spectrum at all is concerning. Graeme Sounness has been called out for referring to the physical or broader non cognitive traits of specific black players in his punditry career. Commenting on a specific player is bad but the sweeping nature of Sagnol's comments is a little more informative about him in my view.

[pineapple stu]

No, I didnt ignore your post, I dismissed your post as the bullsh1t it is. Any supposed stereotype of African players has come from racism.
You dismissed it, sure, but you didn't make any argument. That hardly counts.

Maybe such stereotyped scouting of African footballers does come from racism. Does it make Sagnol racist for complaining about the results of that kind of scouting?

I'm also not making the argument that scouts today have a typical African player in mind. The comments were ten years ago and were based on scouting maybe 20 years ago. That's a long time in football. There's probably a similar reason why Brazilian players tend towards the technical exciting attacking player and away from the rugged centre-half type. Is that racist too? Brazil is a huge place remember.

Okacha and Weah were great players. They were also only two players. There's others of course too but I don't think it's a big enough data sample to base a case on. Similarly the fact we produced Wes Hoolahan doesn't negate the fact there's more than a kernel of truth in the stereotypical player we produce.

[John83]

... the fact we produced Wes Hoolahan doesn't negate the fact there's more than a kernel of truth in the stereotypical player we produce.
I'm not sure I want to get into this discussion at all - at best, the comments by Sagnol were very clumsy, and I had quite enough of Kenny fumbling through press conferences - but I think this is an important point. Stereotypes about Irish players are really about our historical coaching and youth development infrastructure, not our ethnicity or genetic predispositions. That's entirely consistent with the reported explanation Sagnol later gave. I don't much like judging people on one comment they made and didn't double down on. It's just not a very reliable way to judge someone's character.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Similarly the fact we produced Wes Hoolahan doesn't negate the fact there's more than a kernel of truth in the stereotypical player we produce.
Oh - bloody bullsh*t

Wes Hoolahan is the only skillful player Ireland ever produced ? - Really ?

We have produced some of the world's most skillful players on this island

Off the top of my head -

Johnny Giles
Liam Brady
George Best
Steve Heighway
Danny Blanchflower
Charlie Hurley
Johnny Carey
Pat Jennings
Shay Brennan
Noel Cantwell
Denis Irwin
Con Martin
Ronnie Whelan
Paul McGrath
Kevin Sheedy
Billy Whelan
Bill Lacey

Stop talking nonsense

[Stuttgart88]

Ffs lads let's not equate the Irish stereotype of hard working players and say it's similar to Africa. Firstly there are 54 individual countries in Africa so don't lump them all in as one, and more importantly as a continent Africa has produced some of the best players the world has ever seen. Anyone that says there is a stereotypical African player is a fcuking racist plain and simpleParticularly coming from a player who had significant career success with players of African descent too.

[Stuttgart88]

I’m sure you’ve all googled it by now like I have. He apologized for his comments so they were obviously wrong.

The apology itself was a bit ham-fisted but he gave additional context to his words - in particular that his reference to intelligence was meant in a footballing sense rather than a racial or ethnic sense. His argument being that the youth coaching infrastructure there is not to par with what you’d get elsewhere (he used the Scandinavian system as a comparator) therefore the younger African players need that type of development when they’re signed. His opinion has a certain logic to it that I don’t think is racist. But how he said it originally was brutal and he rightly got called out on it.But of all the places (again making a regional generalisation too) why cite Scandinavia? Are they more renowned for their footballing intelligence or their Aryan whiteness? Because if I was to make a footballing generalisation I'd pick southern European, CEE or LatAm players for their footballing intelligence over the Scandies all day long.

[Jolly Red Giant]

at best, the comments by Sagnol were very clumsy,
Sagnol's comments were a conscious act - racists just can't help themselves. No matter how much they try to contain their poisonous views, racists inevitably let it spill out into the open.


Stereotypes about Irish players are really about our historical coaching and youth development infrastructure, not our ethnicity or genetic predispositions.
Nonsense - stereotypes about Irish players are rooted in the imperialist outlook of the hierarchy of the English FA and the British media.


That's entirely consistent with the reported explanation Sagnol later gave.
Sagnol's 'clarification' was a clumsy attempt 1. to justify the comments, - and 2. to save his f*cking job (and, like with Bolton and Lennon, rather than sack Sagnol, the club did it in a completely ham-fisted way that compounded the racist slurs uttered by Sagnol).


I don't much like judging people on one comment they made and didn't double down on. It's just not a very reliable way to judge someone's character.
In 2017 Sagnol was the favourite to get the job as Ghana manager - when it became public knowledge that he was in for the job Sagnol had an opportunity to address his comments, make a proper apology and commit to supporting anti-racism campaigns (something which you would do if you were opposed to racism and made a clumsy comment) - yet Sagnol would not utter a single word, didn't offer a single apology or justification - he attempted to tough it out. It was only after a huge outcry in Ghana that the Ghanaian FA dropped Sagnol like a hot potato and claimed that he was never in the frame for the job.

The guy is a racist - and, like Lennon, shouldn't be anywhere close to being considered by the FAI.

[Eirambler]

Doesn't seem like we're any further forward in finding out the identity of the new man after the weekend game. Dan McDonnell this morning not ruling out the prospect that Canham may have lost out on the replacement previously identified - but that would make Canham's own position somewhat questionable if he can't deliver on what he promised at the press conference a few weeks ago.

[seanfhear]

Probably, El Amigo John O'Shea !

[weldoninhio]

The whole racism everywhere is tiresome. Screeching and wailing to get offended on behalf of other people to show how righteous they are. Sagnol explained himself. I can't see any issue with him becoming Ireland manager. I think it'll be Poyet though.

[sbgawa]

The whole racism everywhere is tiresome. Screeching and wailing to get offended on behalf of other people to show how righteous they are. Sagnol explained himself. I can't see any issue with him becoming Ireland manager. I think it'll be Poyet though.
I agree with this view,
How anyone can bring the debate down to "he is a Racist" with 100% certainty based on comments that a)African players are cheaper then euro players (they were) b) are they less intelligent in a footballing sense then scandinavian players who benefit from far greater levels of coaching (probably yes) are starting from a position that they are looking for offence
Ive no idea if the guy is a racist or not but ive no basis for deciding it based on the above

[Murfinator]

The comments were 10 years ago, apologised for and not dissimilar from the kind of lazy stereotypes heard on RTE panels every world cup and throughout sports media at the time about African teams.

Sagnol's chosen captain at the time was Senegal player Lamine Sane who accepted the apology, viewed his words as "clumsy" rather than having racial intent and defended his character.


Sagnol's captain at Bordeaux is Senegal international Lamine Sane, who called Sagnol's comments "clumsy" before defending him, as did club president Jean-Louis Triaud."He doesn't have any twisted ideas. He believes in all the black players in the team," Sane told French radio. "We believe in him and we hope to go very far with him."
Bordeaux forward Henri Saivet, who is black, told RMC radio that Sagnol apologized.
"We all know pertinently well that the coach is not a racist," Saivet said.

If the apology was accepted as genuine by the African players he was working with on a daily basis at the time then I'm not sure why Irish people a decade later should believe otherwise.

[Razors left peg]

I must say it's disappointing to come in here this morning and see how many are still willing to defend Sagnol. Do better lads

[SkStu]

I must say it's disappointing to come in here this morning and see how many are still willing to defend Sagnol. Do better lads

But Razor, there is clearly a lot more context to his comments that were added subsequently. I suppose whether you choose to believe him or not is down to you. As a few have said (and all, I think, in the context of his initial comments being bad), it gives a reason to pause and think about whether he is racist and whether that is reasonable as a categorical statement - which i personally happen to think is more constructive in the current climate than doubling down and calling on others to do better. Should Mane and Saivet have done better?

[LurcherLover]

His own players from African descent and players who played alongside him from African descent dismissed it as being racist, accepted his apology and it was just him being clumsy with his words, but Foot.ie(who have just learned of this) knows better, doesn't accept this and has declared he is 100% racist. You couldn't make it up. Do better lads.

[MylesNotMiley]

The comments were 10 years ago, apologised for and not dissimilar from the kind of lazy stereotypes heard on RTE panels every world cup and throughout sports media at the time about African teams.

Sagnol's chosen captain at the time was Senegal player Lamine Sane who accepted the apology, viewed his words as "clumsy" rather than having racial intent and defended his character.



If the apology was accepted as genuine by the African players he was working with on a daily basis at the time then I'm not sure why Irish people a decade later should believe otherwise.

If Lamine Sane & Henri Saivet have accepted Sagnol's apology and moved on and Saivet himself stating "we all know pertinently well that the coach is not a racist" - I'm happy to follow their lead.

Sane & Saivet know more about Sagnol's character than a few posters on this forum.

[Stuttgart88]

I'd be inclined to give him benefit of the doubt except the comparison he made was to Scandinavians. I think that's pretty telling.

[pineapple stu]

His own players from African descent and players who played alongside him from African descent dismissed it as being racist
Umm - I presume you mean "dismissed it as not being racist"?

[Razors left peg]

Dwight Yorke also said that Ron Atkinson isn't a racist despite him being caught on air referring to Desailly 'what is known in some schools as a ****ing lazy, thick n****r'.

[LurcherLover]

Umm - I presume you mean "dismissed it as not being racist"?Sorry, yes dismissed it as not being racist.

[LurcherLover]

Dwight Yorke also said that Ron Atkinson isn't a racist despite him being caught on air referring to Desailly 'what is known in some schools as a ****ing lazy, thick n****r'.
Ah OK, yes that definitely means that Sagnol is racist. You should of said. Can someone contact the relevant media outlets and inform them that Sagnols friends, colleagues etc who come from Africa, or African descent and came out to back him as not being racist, are actually wrong and that Razors left peg on foot.ie said that Dwight Yorke said that Ron Atkinson isn't racist but he actually is, so that also means that Sagnol is racist also. You might want to mention that Razor was only made aware of this yesterday.

[John83]

Lads, calm down. Razors is welcome to draw the conclusions he has, as is everyone else. Post your reasoning if you like, but cut out the aggro.

[Razors left peg]

Ah OK, yes that definitely means that Sagnol is racist. You should of said. Can someone contact the relevant media outlets and inform them that Sagnols friends, colleagues etc who come from Africa, or African descent and came out to back him as not being racist, are actually wrong and that Razors left peg on foot.ie said that Dwight Yorke said that Ron Atkinson isn't racist but he actually is, so that also means that Sagnol is racist also. You might want to mention that Razor was only made aware of this yesterday.

You know what my point was, but you and some others seem comfortable with lazy stereotypical old racist tropes being thrown around and wouldn't have a problem with someone who think like that in charge of our national team. I didn't want Lennon because of the allegations against him of threatening a woman either. Call me old fashioned but I have high moral standards for this sort of thing.

You bring up those that were willing to defend Sagnol, what about the likes of Patrick Vieira and others who were disgusted by his comments

[Murfinator]

Dwight Yorke also said that Ron Atkinson isn't a racist despite him being caught on air referring to Desailly 'what is known in some schools as a ****ing lazy, thick n****r'.

Honestly I think it's disgusting to even compare a serial offending vile individual using racial slurs with a man who said something open to interpretation thoughtlessly one time, apologised immediately and had that apology accepted by everyone around him. In your own words "Do Better".

[SkStu]

There is a big difference between what Atkinson said and what Sagnol said but i get the point you are making about the merits of words of defense. Rather than hang on the comparison to young Scandinavian players as an indicator as to whether he is or is not racist, it matters that his comments were referring to young African players and gives credence to his later clarifications. If he had initially said "black players", then game on as far as i am concerned and hard to worm your way out of that kind of statement.

On another note, that last sentence - you are basically accusing posters here of being racist too. That's not fair at all, Razor.

edit: Razor's comment was deleted

[pineapple stu]

You bring up those that were willing to defend Sagnol, what about the likes of Patrick Vieira and others who were disgusted by his comments
I mean, they could be wrong?


Lens coach Antoine Kombouare, who was born in New Caledonia, also was offended. "Let's make things clear: This is not a case of him being clumsy. He's really messed up," Kombouare said. "What he said is serious. It's unacceptable. Explaining that an African player is cheaper ... I felt humiliated and hurt."

What a stupid comment (from here (https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/37389600/bordeaux-coach-willy-sagnol-sorry-comments-african-players)). African players aren't expensive when you sign them (from an African club). What's the problem there? (New Caledonia isn't even in Africa!) Are Everton fans racist when they sing about how little they paid for Séamus Coleman?

Sagnol clarified fairly well when he said -


When I spoke about the African [player] who is cheaper and ready for combat, I simply meant to talk about the young African player arriving in Europe with all of his will to win, and often to escape from a precarious situation. Then, since we were in a debate about football, the intelligence I spoke of was obviously related to tactical intelligence. The forming of young players in Africa, probably because of a lack of financial means, or [lack] of infrastructure, isn't always as complete as what's available in Europe.

I also like this comment from Stephen Fry on offence -


It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that." As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more than a whine. "I find that offensive." It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I am offended by that." Well, so ****ing what.

Now if Sagnol had said he didn't like black players because they were thick, that would have been a different matter. But that's not what he said.