Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[pineapple stu]

Will be tough going seeing as we apparently have the worst squad in the history of world football according to one or two on here!
I don't think anyone has remotely suggested anything of the sort in fairness.

These two games will be interesting though to see what sort of uplift we can get. Presume it's Belgium A this time rather than Belgium B?

[LurcherLover]

Will be tough going seeing as we apparently have the worst squad in the history of world football according to one or two on here!
That's a bit rough, who said that? Sounds like something a 12yo would say when they hear any criticism of their team.

[JR89]

I don't think anyone has remotely suggested anything of the sort in fairness.

These two games will be interesting though to see what sort of uplift we can get. Presume it's Belgium A this time rather than Belgium B?

An away game a couple of months out from the Euros I'd say they'll be sending out the B team. What was it last time lads with under 50 caps were selected.

[pineapple stu]

What was it last time lads with under 50 caps were selected.
Yep. It meant they left out around 11 players I think. If we did the same, it'd mean leaving out McClean, Duffy, Brady, Hendrick and Coleman.

Take that, Belgium!

[seanfhear]

One interesting thing that could come in to the picture if Carsley does get the Irish job ~ ~ Is that Carsley will have extensive knowledge about so many good young players in England ( maybe even a few other places ) ~ ~ Some of these may have dual eligibility and may be that bit more inclined to play for us, if they already have had some interaction with Carsley.

If Carsley could get a few decent players to declare for us that would be a big bonus point !

[Razors left peg]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2023/1219/1422848-full-steam-ahead-for-new-direction-on-the-green-line/

This article from RTE is primarily about Gleeson being appointed womens head coach, but theres enough in there from Marc Canham that shows that the appointment for the men wont be a Sam Allardyce type.

"He doesn't want the senior team - or any team - to be out of sync with what's going on within the rest of the international infrastructure. Everybody must be on the same wavelength. It was a source of friction with Vera Pauw, who refused to change her approach to elements of training - strength and conditioning in particular."

[Jolly Red Giant]

wasn't me that said it. i was just responding to you saying "he team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon)".

I don't think there's much point going into detail about all players again, rebutting some of the things you've said - but just to give a few examples:


Am I arguing about what standard the Irish team are playing at ?

I will point out the following -

Bazunu - 21 years old
Kelleher - 25
Travers - 24 (a good Championship level keeper which is better than most of what we have had for the past 100 years)
O'Shea - 24
Collins - 22
O'Brien - 22 (who should be in the squad)
Omobamidele - 21
Ebosele - 21
Knight - 22
Molumby - 24
Smallbone - 23
Moran - 20
Azaz - 23 (who should be in the squad)
Idah - 22 (and a better player than his goals reflect)
Parrott - 21
Ferguson - 19
Johnston - 24 (and he has started the last 4 games for Celtic)
Connolly - 23
Armstrong - 20
Obafemi - 23 (yes he is injury prone - and we don't know the 'attitude problems')
Cannon - 20 (if he ends up with us)

And with the U21s etc
Aselmo - 20
Lawal - 20
Springett - 21
Gilsenan - 20
Vata - 18
Vaughan - 19
Heffernan - 18
O'Mahony - 18
TKD - 17
Murphy - 19
Fraser - 18
JJP Finn - 20

We have a very young squad - and they have a lot of potential - whether that potential will be achieved only time will tell. Having an international manager who knows what they are doing will help. And if 1 out of 3 of the underage kids achieve their potential as well we will have a strong squad.

[Olé Olé]

Not sure there's much to hugely disagree with there though (except that it was Serie B Connolly was turfed out of, not Serie A)

Bit of realism is no harm here every now and again. Plus there's the caveat "I don't really believe this - but this is how you're looking at the england u21s"

I think this is very interesting.

You manage to find fault with the first part of this. No view to share on the second part?

"Connolly - couldn't cut it in Serie A, struggling in the championship"

I don't think he has struggled in the Championship. Do you?

[Jolly Red Giant]

wasn't me that said it. i was just responding to you saying "he team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon)".

I don't think there's much point going into detail about all players again, rebutting some of the things you've said - but just to give a few examples:

I will also look at an example from history - 1973 to be exact

These were the players who played for Ireland in 1973 (i.e. not the squad - but who were actually capped)

Alan Kelly – 37 years old - Preston – Div 2
Peter Thomas – 29 - Waterford
Mick Kearns – 23 - Walsall – Div 3
Paddy Mulligan – 28 – Palace – Div 2
Jimmy Holmes – 20 – Coventry – Div 1
Tommy Carroll – 31 – Shelbourne
Eoin Hand – 27 – Portsmouth – Div 2
Tony Byrne – 27 – Southampton – Div 1
Tommy McConville – 27 – Shamrock Rovers
Terry Mancini – 31 – QPR – Div 1
Joe Kinnear – 27 – Spurs – Div 1
John Herrick – 27 – Cork Hibs
Mick Martin – 22 – Man U – Div 1
Miah Dennehy – 23 – Forest – Div 2
Gerry Daly – 19 – Man U – Div 1
Johnny Giles – 33 – Leeds – Div 1
Mick Lawlor – 24 – Shamrock Rovers
Turlough O’Connor – 27 – Bohs
Don Givens – 24 – QPR – Div 1
Ray Treacy – 27 – Preston – Div 2
Terry Conroy – 27 – Stoke – Div 1
Alfie Hale – 34 – Waterford
Damien Richardson – 26 – Gillingham – Div 3

Many of these players were not regular starters for their teams (e.g. Terry Conroy - he was used almost exclusively as a sub) - and most of them would be playing a division lower today than they were then because there were practically no foreign players in England at the time.

Between 1967-1972 Ireland didn't win a single game P 19 - W 0 - D 5 - L 14

With mostly the same players as in the previous 3/4 seasons the team in 1973 achieved the following results.

WC qual - 2-1 France home (actually played in late Nov 1972 - but with the same squad of players)
WC qual - 0-1 USSR away
Friendly - 0-2 Poland away
WC qual - 1-1 France away
Friendly - 1-1 Norway away
Friendly - 1-0 Poland home

This was a relatively experienced squad with only a handful of players under 25 - but I would argue that the current squad is playing at a higher level of competition than that 1973 squad. The big difference is that results were achieved by the 1973 squad - they played better than the sum of their parts - and that was down to the manager Liam Touhy who was appointed in 1972 (Sean Thomas was interim manager for the Norway game after Touhy was screwed by the FAI - and Giles was appointed manager before the Poland game but it was still Touhy's approach that was used).

If you get a good coach then you get a team that will play better than the sum of its parts - for the past four years Kenny was succeeding in doing the exact opposite. We have no idea how well this team can actually play as an international team because they never have had a coach who knows what he is doing at international level. Hopefully the next one will know what they are up to.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Looks like we've moved away from the "find the opposition even Stephen Kenny can't lose to" approach to friendlies of previous years, expectations must be higher for the new man.

Will be tough going seeing as we apparently have the worst squad in the history of world football according to one or two on here!
Many of the teams who qualified are looking for strong friendlies before the tournament - and they tend to put out strong teams

[pineapple stu]

I think this is very interesting.

You manage to find fault with the first part of this. No view to share on the second part?

"Connolly - couldn't cut it in Serie A, struggling in the championship"

I don't think he has struggled in the Championship. Do you?

I think it's a reasonable comment within the clear generally caveat given. 6 goals in 19 games isn't exactly tearing it up, is it? The Serie A bit was a clear (minor) typo which is why I picked up on that part, and Connolly in general

[LurcherLover]

Ah sorry but a squad from 50+ years ago is of no relevance to anything regarding comparisons. 20 years would be a stretch, football has evolved so much from then.

[Razors left peg]

I think it's a reasonable comment within the clear generally caveat given. 6 goals in 19 games isn't exactly tearing it up, is it? The Serie A bit was a clear (minor) typo which is why I picked up on that part, and Connolly in general

6 goals in 19 games isn't bad

[pineapple stu]

So you agree it's not tearing it up?

Again, bearing in mind the caveat in the original post, I think the comment was fair enough.

[Razors left peg]

So you agree it's not tearing it up?

Again, bearing in mind the caveat in the original post, I think the comment was fair enough.

Am I missing something or did someone say he was tearing it up?

I think when hes fit hes a very good Championship striker, the big caveat is "when fit"

[ontheotherhand]

Connolly is fairly irrelevant if we are comparing the Ireland team to another team. He's barely featured. We'd be in far better shape if one or two of himself, Idah, Parrot or Obafemi had delivered on their early promise. So far none really have and we are suddenly lumping everything on Ferguson. That alone points to the quality of the squad. He's just one lad. A special talent but he shouldn't have the pressure on him that he has. Not with the players around him that he has.

It's not the worst team in the world but it's certainly one of the worst we've had in recent memory. Green shoots are there all the same and a competent manager will at least give them a better platform to improve.

Enjoy the holidays folks.

[Razors left peg]

I don't understand why we are comparing teams tbh

[pineapple stu]

Am I missing something or did someone say he was tearing it up?

I think when hes fit hes a very good Championship striker, the big caveat is "when fit"
Nope - but then you're not far off agreeing with me then that the original post was fair enough, given its caveat

(I'm not sure he's shown enough to show he's a "very good" Championship striker btw - his recent goal was his first in almost three months. That's not the marker of a very good striker)

[ontheotherhand]

I don't understand why we are comparing teams tbh

it's the off season.

[Razors left peg]

Nope - but then you're not far off agreeing with me then that the original post was fair enough, given its caveat

(I'm not sure he's shown enough to show he's a "very good" Championship striker btw - his recent goal was his first in almost three months. That's not the marker of a very good striker)

He'd been injured for most of the last 3 months, hence the "if fit" caveat.

If you watch him play when he's fit he is very good

[SkStu]

Nope - but then you're not far off agreeing with me then that the original post was fair enough, given its caveat

(I'm not sure he's shown enough to show he's a "very good" Championship striker btw - his recent goal was his first in almost three months. That's not the marker of a very good striker)

To be fair, his form with Hull (8 goals in 24 games; 6 in 19 this season) puts him on course for about 15 goals in a full season. That is a very good championship striker in my opinion. His xG efficiency is in the 92nd percentile this season, well ahead of the average for forwards.

[pineapple stu]

He'd been injured for most of the last 3 months, hence the "if fit" caveat.

If you watch him play when he's fit he is very good
He's been in the matchday squad for every one of Hull's league games this season so far as I can see. So no, he hasn't been injured most of the last three months.

Again, within the context of the caveat given (which everyone seems to be ignoring) I think the comment was reasonable.

He's shown promise this season, but he's still a way off proving himself a very good Championship forward

[pineapple stu]

His xG efficiency is in the 92nd percentile this season, well ahead of the average for forwards.
Where'd you see this out of interest? Fbref disagrees; he's one of four Hull forwards on six goals, but has the highest xG of any of them. xG of 5.6 and 6 goals isn't 92nd percentile; it's pretty much the definition of average

https://fbref.com/en/squads/bd8769d1/Hull-City-Stats

(Actually, I think you're looking at chances created per 90? He's doing well there - 92nd percentile. Not sure efficiency is the right word though? He's getting a lot of chances, and converting them averagely well. And long may he continue to get lots of chances of course)

[Razors left peg]

Jesus we are great at analyzing stats. Sometimes watching the player is good. In watching him he is s very good player, when fit, which he too often isn't.

[pineapple stu]

He's literally not missed a matchday squad this season. You said he'd "been injured for most of the last 3 months", which is clearly not true. He just didn't score in that time.

And you're still ignoring the clear caveat in the original post, which I've referenced constantly, and which you've ignored each time.

Not sure what more can be added if you don't actually read the posts!

[SkStu]

Yeah, I’m not one for the stats - it was a little bit of research I did specially for you Pineapple! :)

Here’s where I got it… (it has him in the 92nd percentile for non penalty XG if that’s right - ahead of the average and behind Brobbey) https://fbref.com/en/players/27c01749/Aaron-Connolly

Tracking to 15 in a season is pretty good too, right?

[Razors left peg]

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aaron-connolly-hull-city-injury-8900202?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

Connolly has been managing injuries most of this season.

You keep going on about this caveat,. 6 goals in 19 games, basically 1 in 3. That's pretty good at any level, it's also more impressive given that he often players wider with Delap through the middle. But here's a thought, actually watch him play. I could could care less about what his stats say. I've watched him play quiet a bit at Hull and that's simply what tells me he's a very good player.

[JR89]

Connolly has yet to miss a match day squad for Hull but as pointed out that doesn't mean he hasn't been dealing with injuries. The three games before the last international games he was an unused sub and Rosenior mentioned how he wasn't fit enough to come off the bench after the final game vs West Brom when asked about him.

[pineapple stu]

You keep going on about this caveat
I do - and you've ignored it again.

Want to go back to the OP and see what the caveat was, and then come back to me? Because if you don't read what the post was, then your replies don't really make any sense.

[Razors left peg]

Id be better off ignoring most stuff on here tbh

[Olé Olé]

I do - and you've ignored it again.

Want to go back to the OP and see what the caveat was, and then come back to me? Because if you don't read what the post was, then your replies don't really make any sense.

This whole caveating appears to hinge on your assertion that you were correcting a typo as opposed to a factual misstatement (Series A v Serie B).

Apologies on behalf of those (myself included) that are skeptical as to whether a) it was a typo and b) you even believe a) to be true yourself.

[pineapple stu]

This whole caveating appears to hinge on your assertion that you were correcting a typo as opposed to a factual misstatement (Series A v Serie B).
Nope. elatedscum had a clear caveat in his post, which I fairly clearly referenced at the time - "To play devils advocate (I don't really believe this - but this is how you're looking at the england u21s)"

His point (as I read it - I'll let him correct me if I've picked him up wrong) is that he was mirroring JRG's rather selective analysis of the England U21 team with a similarly selective view of the Irish panel. So for Ferguson - "Only started 10 premier league games last season". Technically true if you want to be dismissive, but I don't think anyone would really describe Ferguson that way (certainly I wouldn't). I don't think Serie A "is a long way from PL" either (Ebosele) - it's a lower standard, sure, but I don't think it's a long way from it.

And a forward who has one goal in three months (Connolly) could, on that basis, certainly be said to be struggling. (That said, I don't think he's a "very good Championship player" yet; let's see if he can keep on track for 15 goals throughout the season rather than judging him half-way through, cos he's never shown himself able to last a full senior season yet)

So when you said "going down through our entire squad with the clear intention of cutting them down is pretty mad and feels a little pointless" - as far as I can see you completely missed the point of elatedscum's point, caught up by the usual outrage reaction to any sort of criticism of Irish players. But actually it's a quite reasonable post - and, if we're honest, twisting the truth isn't really required for many players.

[Olé Olé]

Nope. elatedscum had a clear caveat in his post, which I fairly clearly referenced at the time - "To play devils advocate (I don't really believe this - but this is how you're looking at the england u21s)"

His point (as I read it - I'll let him correct me if I've picked him up wrong) is that he was mirroring JRG's rather selective analysis of the England U21 team with a similarly selective view of the Irish panel. So for Ferguson - "Only started 10 premier league games last season". Technically true if you want to be dismissive, but I don't think anyone would really describe Ferguson that way (certainly I wouldn't). I don't think Serie A "is a long way from PL" either (Ebosele) - it's a lower standard, sure, but I don't think it's a long way from it.

And a forward who has one goal in three months (Connolly) could, on that basis, certainly be said to be struggling. (That said, I don't think he's a "very good Championship player" yet; let's see if he can keep on track for 15 goals throughout the season rather than judging him half-way through, cos he's never shown himself able to last a full senior season yet)

So when you said "going down through our entire squad with the clear intention of cutting them down is pretty mad and feels a little pointless" - as far as I can see you completely missed the point of elatedscum's point, caught up by the usual outrage reaction to any sort of criticism of Irish players. But actually it's a quite reasonable post - and, if we're honest, twisting the truth isn't really required for many players.

Yeah, I'll let them correct you if you're wrong. Again, a long post built on a big assumption, in this case that elatedscum's post represented a piece of "rather selective analysis" as opposed to their actual views.

And, regardless, their post represented a tad more than "any sort of criticism of Irish players." I think anyone could objectively see it as more than that. It was a line by line take down, with a clear focus on the downside and whether that was intended or otherwise I think people could reasonably take umbrage with the post without it being described as "the usual outrage reaction".

[pineapple stu]

You're literally still ignoring the key point even after it's been explained in detail to you!

I'm assuming elated's post didn't represent his actual views because it contains the line "To play devils advocate (I don't really believe this - but this is how you're looking at the england u21s)"

I don't really see how much clearer that could have been

And that's why it's wrong (in my view) to get offended by it as "a line by line take down, with a clear focus on the downside".

To continue to argue that "people could reasonably take umbrage with the post without it being described as "the usual outrage reaction" is, again, to completely miss the point of it. Hence the caveat you're still ignoring

[Jolly Red Giant]

Ah sorry but a squad from 50+ years ago is of no relevance to anything regarding comparisons. 20 years would be a stretch, football has evolved so much from then.
And it has evolved for everybody - so I would argue that the comparison is valid.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Connolly is fairly irrelevant if we are comparing the Ireland team to another team. He's barely featured. We'd be in far better shape if one or two of himself, Idah, Parrot or Obafemi had delivered on their early promise. So far none really have and we are suddenly lumping everything on Ferguson. That alone points to the quality of the squad. He's just one lad. A special talent but he shouldn't have the pressure on him that he has. Not with the players around him that he has.

It's not the worst team in the world but it's certainly one of the worst we've had in recent memory. Green shoots are there all the same and a competent manager will at least give them a better platform to improve.

Enjoy the holidays folks.
You are correct - so far none of Connolly, Idah, Parrott or Obafemi have developed as well as their earlier potential indicated they might. All still have time - Connolly and Obafemi are 23 - Idah is 22 and Parrott is 21 and could still contribute (I think Idah is the most likely).

But you are correct about the current team - it is full of young players who have still to mature and is probably the worst Irish team since the late 1960s/very early 70s in terms of results and standing.

I also would agree that a large part of that is down to Kenny and that this squad of players is capable of doing much better than what Kenny was able to produce - this doesn't mean that it is still not the worst team in quite a while, but hopefully we don't have to wait too long for them to start fulfilling some of the potential they have.

[Jolly Red Giant]

He's been in the matchday squad for every one of Hull's league games this season so far as I can see. So no, he hasn't been injured most of the last three months.

Rosenior has repeatedly said that he hasn't been match fit and that it could take quite a few weeks for him to get fit - he has been having some niggly injuries, but more importantly he just lost all his physical fitness probably through a combination of injuries and too much party time. I think Rosenior is being very smart with him - keeping the pressure off, letting him get his head right, not putting too much fan expectations on him, and letting him grow up a bit. Connolly has talent - the problem has always been what is going on in his head.

[seanfhear]

So, It doesn't look like Santy Claus is getting us a new manager for Christmas then !

[Razors left peg]

So, It doesn't look like Santy Claus is getting us a new manager for Christmas then !

He gave us Eileen Gleeson, cant be over working him and expecting 2 in a week!

[CraftyToePoke]

So, It doesn't look like Santy Claus is getting us a new manager for Christmas then !

Better than Big Sam coming down your chimney and filling your stocking out of the blue for Christmas Seanie ..... nobody wants to see that.

[Razors left peg]

Have a look at Connollys goal today and tell me he's not a very good player

[Razors left peg]

Not long after goal, injures the toe that's been the problem for him and he's telling the bench he has to come off. HT now, I'd say his night is done. So frustrating

Edit:must have got the magic sponge at ht, stays on

[SkStu]

Really found this review of 2023 a great read and decent reflection on the ups and downs, the civil and cultural war, the various factions and how the future is looking.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2023/1221/1423251-2023-the-year-the-kenny-dream-finally-fizzled-out/


In assessing the Kenny reign, supporters could well argue that Ireland were inevitably bound for a difficult, transitional era regardless of who was in charge and that the regeneration of the squad that began under his watch will bear fruit down the line.

Perhaps the ultimate failure of the Kenny project will focus minds on the deeper problems, notably a grossly underfunded academy structure, which pales in comparison with practically everywhere else in Europe.

Happy New Year to all fellow footiers. Hopefully we’ll have more to be happy about in 2024 than we did in 2023 but the one thing is certain - there’ll be no shortage of topics for this group to debate!! Wishing you all the best.

[pineapple stu]

Was only thinking about this thread actually - or specifically, the lack of any news on a new manager. Wonder if a caretaker is an option for March?

Anyways, echo what you say about 2024 - we may have our disagreements on here :p but in the end of the day we're all on the same side, and there's some really great discussion here more often than not. Nice to see a few new posters joining lately too. All the best for 2024 - a win or two would be sweet!

[JR89]

Who would even step in as caretaker for two games. All the coaching staff were let go and the U21s have a qualifier. Is Noel King still involved with the FAI.

[ontheotherhand]

Who would even step in as caretaker for two games. All the coaching staff were let go and the U21s have a qualifier. Is Noel King still involved with the FAI.

Mypost.

Happy New Year to you all.

[tetsujin1979]

Happy New Year all, may we live in interesting times

[seanfhear]

Happy New Year all, may we live in interesting timesHappy New Year.

We do live in interesting times and with General Artificial Intelligence just around the corner ( if not already here ) We sure are going to live in interesting times in the future.

[Eirambler]

Really found this review of 2023 a great read and decent reflection on the ups and downs, the civil and cultural war, the various factions and how the future is looking.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2023/1221/1423251-2023-the-year-the-kenny-dream-finally-fizzled-out/



Happy New Year to all fellow footiers. Hopefully we’ll have more to be happy about in 2024 than we did in 2023 but the one thing is certain - there’ll be no shortage of topics for this group to debate!! Wishing you all the best.

Have always thought of Conor Neville as one of the more underrated Irish sports writers. Overall a very good article, the only small issue I'd have is with him saying Kenny never resorted to bemoaning the quality of players he was picking from - he absolutely did so that, having initially oversold them to a fairly ridiculous extent.

My wish for 2024 is that we get a manager who is more uniting of the support, whoever the new man is. Kenny was always going to play to a certain very vocal faction, one that I think are basically wrong in almost everything they think they know about football. Now that that viewpoint has been so publicly found out as pointed out in that article, we need someone who can reunite the support and be pragmatic to get the best out of the team, but at the same time without resorting to complete neanderthal tactics of times past.

[Stuttgart88]

Kenny was always going to play to a certain very vocal faction, one that I think are basically wrong in almost everything they think they know about football.Which faction? LOI fans?