Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[weldoninhio]

I think the fair point Eirrambler is making is that a good appointment, lets assume Lee Carsley, if he brings in an extra 5,000 punters a game, then that equates to over €1m in additional revenue per year. So being stingy to the point where you can't attract a good candidate does, in the end, cost the association more money. And if you're budgeting, you can factor in the increased wages or increased cost of the backroom staff with what you expect to earn from match days...

The big cash cow is of course if you can get a manager capable of qualifying you for a tournament. A single unexpected tournament qualification would be enough to stabilise the FAI finances for the foreseeable future... That's why Uruguay (a country similar in size to ourselves) are prepared to pay Bielsa $4m a year (a Trappatoni type wage)

And if that "good" appointment flops, plays dirt football, is worse than Kenny results wise (probably not possible, but anything can happen), and they lose 10-15k supporters per game? Thats 3m less by your calculations. What then?

I'm sure the FAI would be happy to offer $4m Uruguayan dollars a year to the right manager too, it's about €95k a year.

[weldoninhio]

I'm going out on a limb here, but Uruguay have a better chance of qualifying for tournaments than us. That ain't the same gamble at all.

As you said "a single, unexpected tournament qualification" solves a lot. The problem there is chasing the unlikely with money we don't have. Is the risk worth the reward? Not for me. We are arguably already pushing the budget out and have been for a while. The Carlsey saga tells me we are probably already banking an attendance increases at a minimum. It fell apart due to backroom staff wage needs? IF that's true then I'd say we were in risky territory to begin with.

McCarthy would cost probably double or triple what we are rumoured to have. Does he get us to a tournament? Who else goes unpaid while we wait for it?

Some posters expect us to do a Leeds/Portsmouth/Rangers, and hope that it works out for us unlike how it turned out for them.

[John83]

Yeah, in our current situation, performance-related pay has to be a given. Offer someone ambitious a chance at good money, but only if the results are there. And yes, good candidates would snub that. We can't afford them.

[texidub]

Hill and FAI getting a grilling at an Oireachtas Committee this morning:: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/cr3-live/

I reckon the new manager will be on minimum wage, given that the suits' holiday expenses have to be paid first.

[weldoninhio]

Hill and FAI getting a grilling at an Oireachtas Committee this morning:: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/cr3-live/

I reckon the new manager will be on minimum wage, given that the suits' holiday expenses have to be paid first.

You mean "holiday pay" that's a legal requirement for every worker in the country??

[texidub]

You mean "holiday pay" that's a legal requirement for every worker in the country??

That'd be the one. I should have said 'the suits need to be taken care of first.' As an aside, I hate it when privileged professionals hide behind 'worker' language. Despite being meaningful in a legal sense --they do 'work'-- it's quite disingenuous, IMO. Holiday pay requirements weren't brought in to protect people on 250K+ a year...

[pineapple stu]

You mean "holiday pay" that's a legal requirement for every worker in the country??
I don't think there's a statutory requirement to pay untaken annual leave to an employee still in service though, which is what happened here so far as I can see.

If you leave employment, you get paid for untaken holidays. But if you carry forward days, then statutorily you either use them within six months of year-end or you lose them (see here (https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/leave-and-holidays/annual-leave/#cea367)). You can agree otherwise with your employer of course - which seems to be what happened here - but there's no legal requirement to pay staff still in employment for leave they haven't taken. Indeed, a company should be trying to ensure staff take their leave in full (or at least the statutory leave).

[Eirambler]

You mean "holiday pay" that's a legal requirement for every worker in the country??

If I don't take my full holiday allocation I don't get paid for the left over days and, as far as I know, my employer is perfectly legally entitled to hold that position.

[elatedscum]

Some posters expect us to do a Leeds/Portsmouth/Rangers, and hope that it works out for us unlike how it turned out for them.

I’m not saying that but there’s got to be some sense in reality as to what the market expects. Someone posted the IFA’s pay of Michael O’Neill (wasn’t it £/€1.2m?) - I know his previous IFA contract was £800k a year and his Stoke contract was £1.6m a year. The fact Lee Carsley was getting as much for being a u21 manager speaks volumes… And if an extra £200-300k gets you a much better manager, it’s money you need to find…

What was the old phrase… if you pay peanuts, you get Peter Reid…

[JR89]

If I don't take my full holiday allocation I don't get paid for the left over days and, as far as I know, my employer is perfectly legally entitled to hold that position.

Which is what a lot of FAI employees are annoyed with because in their employment handbook it states that employees can't be paid in lieu for holidays not taken.

[weldoninhio]

I’m not saying that but there’s got to be some sense in reality as to what the market expects. Someone posted the IFA’s pay of Michael O’Neill (wasn’t it £/€1.2m?) - I know his previous IFA contract was £800k a year and his Stoke contract was £1.6m a year. The fact Lee Carsley was getting as much for being a u21 manager speaks volumes… And if an extra £200-300k gets you a much better manager, it’s money you need to find…

What was the old phrase… if you pay peanuts, you get Peter Reid…

Uruguay are paying €95k and got Bielsa.

[elatedscum]

Uruguay are paying €95k and got Bielsa.

assuming you're joking but he's paid $4m (US dollars)

[pineapple stu]

There being no such thing as an Uruguayan dollar...

[Demesne Lad]

This 'find a manager' saga - and I think the process has gone on long enough to merit that term - is a national embarrassment. Transfermarkt have a long list of available coaches. Some of them are unemployed because they aren't much good, some have never managed at a high level, some are getting rather long in the tooth. It is depressing to think that no-one vaguely suitable has approached the FAI. If it's a perception that the squad available is of poor quality, that too is depressing, but there's not a lot can be done about that in the short term. If it's because the money on offer is too little to attract decent managers, it is depressing that no organisation or company has offered to top it up. One would have thought that Ticketmaster, for example, who make money out of every international ticket sold, could contribute something. I am reminded of the proverb: 'Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan'.

Time for a national whip-round? It saved Dublin Zoo!

[JR89]

This 'find a manager' saga - and I think the process has gone on long enough to merit that term - is a national embarrassment. Transfermarkt have a long list of available coaches. Some of them are unemployed because they aren't much good, some have never managed at a high level, some are getting rather long in the tooth. It is depressing to think that no-one vaguely suitable has approached the FAI. If it's a perception that the squad available is of poor quality, that too is depressing, but there's not a lot can be done about that in the short term. If it's because the money on offer is too little to attract decent managers, it is depressing that no organisation or company has offered to top it up. One would have thought that Ticketmaster, for example, who make money out of every international ticket sold, could contribute something. I am reminded of the proverb: 'Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan'.

Time for a national whip-round? It saved Dublin Zoo!

It's not really.

[seanfhear]

This 'find a manager' saga - and I think the process has gone on long enough to merit that term - is a national embarrassment. Transfermarkt have a long list of available coaches. Some of them are unemployed because they aren't much good, some have never managed at a high level, some are getting rather long in the tooth. It is depressing to think that no-one vaguely suitable has approached the FAI. If it's a perception that the squad available is of poor quality, that too is depressing, but there's not a lot can be done about that in the short term. If it's because the money on offer is too little to attract decent managers, it is depressing that no organisation or company has offered to top it up. One would have thought that Ticketmaster, for example, who make money out of every international ticket sold, could contribute something. I am reminded of the proverb: 'Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan'.

Time for a national whip-round? It saved Dublin Zoo!
The FAI was Delaney's Circus ~ ~ Maybe , It's still a circus !

[zero]

It's unusual I guess to be without a senior manager for a long stretch, but when you consider there are no competitive fixtures til September perhaps it makes sense to wait. You would kind of think though that the later the appointment the more they can offer as they are saving x months of salary... assuming Kenny had no pay off (surely be to god he didn't) then it's been 3 months without his 550k salary and whatever his team was on. That's about 135k savings on the manager role alone.

[Razors left peg]

This 'find a manager' saga - and I think the process has gone on long enough to merit that term - is a national embarrassment. Transfermarkt have a long list of available coaches. Some of them are unemployed because they aren't much good, some have never managed at a high level, some are getting rather long in the tooth. It is depressing to think that no-one vaguely suitable has approached the FAI. If it's a perception that the squad available is of poor quality, that too is depressing, but there's not a lot can be done about that in the short term. If it's because the money on offer is too little to attract decent managers, it is depressing that no organisation or company has offered to top it up. One would have thought that Ticketmaster, for example, who make money out of every international ticket sold, could contribute something. I am reminded of the proverb: 'Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan'.

Time for a national whip-round? It saved Dublin Zoo!

I don't know the lengths exactly, but I've read that the searches for both Trap and MON took longer

[tetsujin1979]

Staunton was removed from the job in October 2007, Trapattoni's first game was in May 2008, although the appointment was announced the previous February.
IMO, if the right person is appointed, then the wait to appoint them is justified. If, however, it's someone completely uninspiring, then it'll have been a waste of everyone's time

[Razors left peg]

Having seen the goings on today it's hard not to think they've spent more time prepping for evasion and covering their ar$es at the Government hearing than getting on with the job of finding manager.

[JR89]

Still think they should just turn the FAI into a reality TV show at this stage. Would be prime time TV and they could make a fortune on sponsorship and charging people to text in vote on decisions.

[Eirambler]

It takes a long time to do all that redacting in fairness. Hopefully now it's done they can maybe focus on the whole manager thing a bit more. Maybe save a few quid on printer cartridges as well.

[Eirambler]

Some posters expect us to do a Leeds/Portsmouth/Rangers, and hope that it works out for us unlike how it turned out for them.

These, of course, all being privately owned football clubs as opposed to national football associations.

[pineapple stu]

Not sure what the relevance of that is?

[weldoninhio]

These, of course, all being privately owned football clubs as opposed to national football associations.

You don't think the FAI can go bankrupt??

[John83]

If they did and the government didn't bail them out after another clown show at the PAC, would we get a whole new FA? I assume there's more downside here than is obvious to me.

[Diggs246]

If they did and the government didn't bail them out after another clown show at the PAC, would we get a whole new FA? I assume there's more downside here than is obvious to me.

I wonder do FIFA and or UEFA have punitive measures in place if an organization goes bankrupt ie kicked out of the world cup or Euros

[Eirambler]

I wonder do FIFA and or UEFA have punitive measures in place if an organization goes bankrupt ie kicked out of the world cup or Euros

They don't and it would never happen. That's not to say that we should start throwing around millions that we don't have, but we can certainly stretch to a few hundred thousand more for a senior manager.

Surely it should be obvious that a private football club and a national association aren't particularly comparable?!

[pineapple stu]

That's not to say that we should start throwing around millions that we don't have, but we can certainly stretch to a few hundred thousand more for a senior manager.
Come back John Delaney; all is forgiven!


Surely it should be obvious that a private football club and a national association aren't particularly comparable?!
I'd argue they're very comparable. Portsmouth and Leeds spent too much reaching for the stars, had their wings burnt, and the debt levels they built up held them back for years. They've never really recovered - Portsmouth haven't been above the third tier in a dozen years; Leeds' recent PL spell was their first since the **** hit the fan.

That all sounds very comparable to what's happening the FAI now

[Eirambler]

But they're not really though. Ireland can't be relegated multiple divisions due to financial impropriety, or have to start again from the Northern Counties league or the Scottish third division as a result of a liquidation. Every country in the world has a football association, there's a need for one that goes beyond the role of a privately owned football club. So the reality is that the potential consequences for a football club will never be the same as a national football association. They're two very different things.

[pineapple stu]

But Portsmouth and Leeds didn't have that either.

What they did have was funds tied up in debt repayments holding them back for years and years. Exactly what we're seeing with the FAI now

I think in theory we could be relegated to the bottom Nations League group btw. And maybe even restart as a bottom seed in qualifying. Just because it's never happened before (that I'm aware of) doesn't mean we should find out what could happen.

Spending a few hundred grand extra (per year .. ignoring the likely knock-on impact of an increase in backroom staff) does not sound like a reasonable business plan

[ontheotherhand]

But they're not really though. Ireland can't be relegated multiple divisions due to financial impropriety, or have to start again from the Northern Counties league or the Scottish third division as a result of a liquidation. Every country in the world has a football association, there's a need for one that goes beyond the role of a privately owned football club. So the reality is that the potential consequences for a football club will never be the same as a national football association. They're two very different things.

You sound like you know more than I do on the topic of consequences. What would actually happen if they went to the wall?

[Eirambler]

Well, there's a few possibilities. Most of them involved state funding in one form or another, - be it a loan or a bailout - which almost certainly wouldn't happen with a club. But at the end of it all there would still be a national football association and we'd continue to have a national football team.

Look, none of this is going to happen anyway for the sake of throwing a few hundred thousand extra to hire a better manager. Especially not in the context of the debts JD ran up. As I said earlier a better manager would be more likely to pay for himself, especially if the alternative is a Jim Crawford or a Stephen Bradley type or, god forbid, a Neil Lennon.

[ontheotherhand]

Well, there's a few possibilities. Most of them involved state funding in one form or another, - be it a loan or a bailout - which almost certainly wouldn't happen with a club. But at the end of it all there would still be a national football association and we'd continue to have a national football team.

Look, none of this is going to happen anyway for the sake of throwing a few hundred thousand extra to hire a better manager. Especially not in the context of the debts JD ran up. As I said earlier a better manager would be more likely to pay for himself, especially if the alternative is a Jim Crawford or a Stephen Bradley type or, god forbid, a Neil Lennon.

You want tax payers to pay for the FAI to gamble on qualifying for a tournament?

[pineapple stu]

At the expense of, say, investing in LoI academies which would help develop players to make our team better in the future

[EalingGreen]

You sound like you know more than I do on the topic of consequences. What would actually happen if they went to the wall?They could ask to rejoin the IFA? :D

[ontheotherhand]

At the expense of, say, investing in LoI academies which would help develop players to make our team better in the future

There are plastic hammers that have gone uninflated for years now stu! Priorities.

[Eirambler]

You want tax payers to pay for the FAI to gamble on qualifying for a tournament?

No - I specifically said I didn't expect that to happen. But feel free to twist it whatever way suits your own agenda.

[pineapple stu]

You only don't expect it to happen because you don't understand accountancy though

Anyone can "not expect" things to happen on that basis

[ontheotherhand]

No - I specifically said I didn't expect that to happen. But feel free to twist it whatever way suits your own agenda.

What odds are you giving and on what basis?

And please go back and answer my earlier question - what happens to the people currently going without a full wage for actually trying to help the sport in this country? How does your budget increase help them?

[pineapple stu]

I think it's worth adding that at the Oireachtas hearing last week, the FAI said they had "low millions" in cash available - so €3m or so. And huge debt servicing, which will have payment terms to be met to avoid default.

Let's say the suggestion is to add €500k onto the manager's salary on a four year contract. That's €2.2m (incl ER's PRSI) over four years - close on the entire cash reserves of the FAI at present.

That doesn't leave a lot of scope for anything else to go wrong...

[Eirambler]

I'm not giving any odds, I'm not interested in discussing any complexities of accounting. I simply gave a worst case scenario when asked and said it was highly unlikely to happen in the greater scheme of things given that we're talking a few hundred thousand pounds/euros here. I was then told that I apparently "wanted taxpayers to pay for the FAI".

It's very difficult to have a sensible discussion when people start putting words in your mouth like that. No wonder this forum is half dead.

[elatedscum]

I do think the sums of money being discussed are relatively small when you look at the money the association gets from FIFA - or even the €4.5m a year that the DDSL takes in in player registration fees. Or the money that is spend on renovating a single 4G pitch.

I don’t expect us to be paying second highest in Europe like we were under Trap but I also don’t think we should be paying 40th highest in Europe either.

We’re not happy with League 1 players, so I don’t see why we should expect to attract a manager above that calibre when we’re only prepared to pay League 1 wages.

[ontheotherhand]

I'm not giving any odds, I'm not interested in discussing any complexities of accounting. I simply gave a worst case scenario when asked and said it was highly unlikely to happen in the greater scheme of things given that we're talking a few hundred thousand pounds/euros here. I was then told that I apparently "wanted taxpayers to pay for the FAI".

It's very difficult to have a sensible discussion when people start putting words in your mouth like that. No wonder this forum is half dead.

You suggested upping the budget but you aren't interested in discussing what that would actually entail.

You're advocating gambling money we don't have while employees are unpaid. I'm asking you what would happen if the gamble doesn't work. Can you sensibly discuss that?

You mentioned three factors that would help.

1. crowds - been basically the same throughout
2. sponsorship - enough to pay off all the debts?
3. qualification for a major tournament.....ok.........if we triple our current budget and get McCarthy, does he succeed this time?

So.....upping the managerial budget secures which one of those and to what degree?

[pineapple stu]

I was then told that I apparently "wanted taxpayers to pay for the FAI". It's very difficult to have a sensible discussion when people start putting words in your mouth like that.
No, you very clearly said that.

You can't discuss financial matters and say you're "not interested in discussing any complexities of accounting" - conveniently, because that's where your argument falls down. And it's not complexities of accounting to say the FAI has admitted it has a relatively low level of ready cash available and very high levels of debt, which will come with repayment terms which have to be met.

[backstothewall]

Given the FAI's financial issues I wonder if they've given any consideration to the obvious solution.

Jim Crawford is available at 80/1 with Paddy Power. If they were to stick €100k on him at that price and then give him the job it would pay out 8 million.

Give him the 2 games in March and then try again over the summer with a decent budget.

[John83]

You know, that could be a way to clear the national debt. We might even have enough to pay for a metro.

[weldoninhio]

Sweden have got a manager. Jon Dahl Tomasson. Wonder if we sounded him out. Decent manager. Their first foreign manager.

[Razors left peg]

https://www.the42.ie/paul-clement-ireland-6310645-Feb2024/

Would Paul Clement interest anyone?

[pineapple stu]

Never really heard of him tbh (despite a spell as our 21s assistant apparently) but his career doesn't sound great on wiki. Some impressive coaching roles (PSG, Real, Bayern) but then sacked in short time at Derby ("Clement's style of football was also cited as a contributing factor"), Swansea ("Clement was criticised for playing "boring" and "negative" football"), Reading and Cercle Brugge when in full charge. Didn't last a year at any of those roles.