Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[JR89]

Getting sacked for complaining about not being paid?

That'll work out well I'm sure

Though if his contract is close to up, then it'd be more than he wasn't kept on rather than that he was sacked

Contract is up in March I believe but talks they'll move him on after the France game. Greek FA look a bigger shambles than our lot. They'll have no fans in attendance for their friendly against New Zealand because the only stadium they could get for that date UEFA won't allow fans attend.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I didnt write an off the cuff remark about his time with Ghana, in fact I went into detail about each result he had there more than I normally would do usually from an individual game point of view and respective FIFA rankings. You are of the opinion that there are mitigating circumstances that I dont agree with because the teams the results have come against are so bad.
Nah - you didn't go into detail - you looked at the rankings of the teams in the group - spoke about when Ghana scored a couple of goals - and then mentioned two friendlies that Ghana lost (without mentioning the rankings)


It is what it is, I dont hate Chris Hughton, I just dont think he is the right man for the job.
And that is fair enough - now - can I challenge you to name your preferred candidate - someone who is a realistic prospect for the FAI and who won't jump ship to a club job at the first available opportunity?

[Razors left peg]

And that is fair enough - now - can I challenge you to name your preferred candidate - someone who is a realistic prospect for the FAI and who won't jump ship to a club job at the first available opportunity?

Carsley is my preferred and I think the most obvious candidate, but outside of that I dont really know. If I was to pick a massive outsider who I think could be interesting to take a punt on Id say Brian Barry Murphy.

The biggest reason for my choices are that I believe over the next few years its still vital that we bring in players from the youth ranks. We are continuing to be successful, to a point, with the underage teams and there are a number of players from u17s up that could very well make an impact in the next 2-4 years. I dont want a manager with the mentality of Martin O'Neill for example who explicitly said that he didnt care about the youth players because his job was to just win now. For me the senior team manager has to win games obviously, but I also believe there should be a consideration to the overall development of Irish football. I also think that some of the players coming through will help the senior team to win.

So I dont think there is a perfect answer to who should be the next manager, but I dont want someone with a conservative mindset.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Carsley is my preferred and I think the most obvious candidate, but outside of that I dont really know. If I was to pick a massive outsider who I think could be interesting to take a punt on Id say Brian Barry Murphy.
Two decent options - I don't think Carsley is a realistic one - but Barry Murphy could be. Now the big question is whether Barry Murphy wants to get back into club management - or wants to stay with his current job - he was linked with QPR and Swansea last year. He did a decent job at Rochdale and looked to be on an upward trajectory in terms of club management before he moved to Man City. He seems settled there and that's why I think he probably won't be interested.


The biggest reason for my choices are that I believe over the next few years its still vital that we bring in players from the youth ranks. We are continuing to be successful, to a point, with the underage teams and there are a number of players from u17s up that could very well make an impact in the next 2-4 years. I dont want a manager with the mentality of Martin O'Neill for example who explicitly said that he didnt care about the youth players because his job was to just win now. For me the senior team manager has to win games obviously, but I also believe there should be a consideration to the overall development of Irish football. I also think that some of the players coming through will help the senior team to win.
I would agree with that.


So I dont think there is a perfect answer to who should be the next manager, but I dont want someone with a conservative mindset.
I would also agree with this - but there is a myth that Hughton has a conservative mindset. He works with what he has available - when he has the players his teams play an exciting brand of football (ask Brighton fans during the season he got them promoted - or the Newcastle fans that staged protests when he was sacked by Ashley). What he does build is a solid defence.

There is also a myth that Hughton doesn't use young players - in fact the reason why he is currently being threatened with the sack in Ghana is because he wants to bring young players into the squad.

[Razors left peg]

I do think Carsley is realistic, all his buddies in the media like Kilbane and Dunne were touting him for the job up to recently and I dont think that they would have done that without knowing he would take the job, but we'll see.

In regards to Barry, he'd be a massive outside option and I dont think Ive seen his name being linked with it anywhere but if hes ambitious this would be the biggest job he could get right now.

Edit: I dont think you can say its a myth that he has a conservative mindset. Its your opinion that he doesnt, but his style of football in the last 10 years roughly to me was conservative. I didnt pull my opinion from the air, its based on what I seen, and a lot would agree with me. Now if he got the job and made us solid, but tried to play a decent brand of football and didnt lean on tried and tested older players at the expense of better younger players then I'd be delighted to say I had it wrong on him.

[LurcherLover]

For me the senior team manager has to win games obviously, but I also believe there should be a consideration to the overall development of Irish football. I also think that some of the players coming through will help the senior team to win.

I don't think that the senior managers role should have anything to do with the development of Irish football. I'd argue that the vast majority of snr international managers have little to no impact on the development of players coming through and nor should they. They have very limited time with their players throughout the year and the role of development will solely be with their clubs. The role of the manager is to essentially pick the best team and get that team playing to the best of their abilities through direction, tactics etc and bring young players into the squad but development does not fall into their remit and they wouldn't have the time or resources to do so.

[Razors left peg]

I don't think that the senior managers role should have anything to do with the development of Irish football. I'd argue that the vast majority of snr international managers have little to no impact on the development of players coming through and nor should they. They have very limited time with their players throughout the year and the role of development will solely be with their clubs. The role of the manager is to essentially pick the best team and get that team playing to the best of their abilities through direction, tactics etc and bring young players into the squad but development does not fall into their remit and they wouldn't have the time or resources to do so.

There's a huge amount of downtime in between games so the international manager has plenty of time to be involved with the youth structures, especially I'm a small country like ourselves. And I didn't say he should be the head of development, I just said there should be consideration of it. If we only think short term constantly we will never improve.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I don't think that the senior managers role should have anything to do with the development of Irish football. I'd argue that the vast majority of snr international managers have little to no impact on the development of players coming through and nor should they. They have very limited time with their players throughout the year and the role of development will solely be with their clubs. The role of the manager is to essentially pick the best team and get that team playing to the best of their abilities through direction, tactics etc and bring young players into the squad but development does not fall into their remit and they wouldn't have the time or resources to do so.
We are a small country with a limited pool of players capable of playing international football. There needs to be some sort of overall development plan in place and it should include the international manager.

If I am remembering correctly - this was one of the things that Brian Kerr was touting both before and while he was Irish manager. Interestingly, he left the Faroes job precisely because they wanted him to take a far more active role in the development of football from the grassroots up - but this would have required Kerr spending far more time in the Faroe Islands than he was willing to do.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Edit: I dont think you can say its a myth that he has a conservative mindset. Its your opinion that he doesnt, but his style of football in the last 10 years roughly to me was conservative. I didnt pull my opinion from the air, its based on what I seen, and a lot would agree with me. Now if he got the job and made us solid, but tried to play a decent brand of football and didnt lean on tried and tested older players at the expense of better younger players then I'd be delighted to say I had it wrong on him.
Its not my opinion - it is an actual myth.

At Newcastle his teams were not conservative - at Birmingham they were not conservative - for the first two years at Brighton they were not conservative. But when you are managing a team that has a bottom three budget and little money to spend on players - then you do the job in a fashion that ensures PL survival. Half the teams that are promoted, get relegated within two seasons - about 40% after the first season. Those that survive tend to do so by throwing vasts amounts of money at the squad (e.g. Forest £150m) - and it usually comes back to bite them in the ass a few years later. Hughton kept both Norwich and Brighton up with a fraction of the money most other promoted clubs spend - in particular the case of Brighton because he laid the foundations for Potter's later success. To keep the teams up he had to play to their strengths - tight defence, not taking risks and battling for results. He didn't have to do that at Newcastle because he actually had a squad capable of playing in the PL. Forest were also a basket-case when he took them over - his first objective was to save them from relegation - which he did.

Forest had so many injuries at the start of the second season that Hughton basically had no choice but to shut up shop and wait until he got players back - except it didn't work - and Hughton paid the price. But - as I have pointed out - three months later Forest were still in 17th place - they then won three on the trot - two against the bottom two teams - and they jumped to 8th. In January they brought in five new players - and four of them played a crucial role in getting Forest promoted. If Hughton had the players that Copper had at his disposal then Forest would not have been conservative. Hughton knows how to get teams promoted and/or into the play-offs (and to keep them in the PL when they are promoted).

[weldoninhio]

I do think Carsley is realistic, all his buddies in the media like Kilbane and Dunne were touting him for the job up to recently and I dont think that they would have done that without knowing he would take the job, but we'll see.

In regards to Barry, he'd be a massive outside option and I dont think Ive seen his name being linked with it anywhere but if hes ambitious this would be the biggest job he could get right now.

Edit: I dont think you can say its a myth that he has a conservative mindset. Its your opinion that he doesnt, but his style of football in the last 10 years roughly to me was conservative. I didnt pull my opinion from the air, its based on what I seen, and a lot would agree with me. Now if he got the job and made us solid, but tried to play a decent brand of football and didnt lean on tried and tested older players at the expense of better younger players then I'd be delighted to say I had it wrong on him.

What "tried and tested older players" have Ireland got at the moment??

[tetsujin1979]

Its not my opinion - it is an actual myth.

At Newcastle his teams were not conservative - at Birmingham they were not conservative - for the first two years at Brighton they were not conservative. But when you are managing a team that has a bottom three budget and little money to spend on players - then you do the job in a fashion that ensures PL survival. Half the teams that are promoted, get relegated within two seasons - about 40% after the first season. Those that survive tend to do so by throwing vasts amounts of money at the squad (e.g. Forest £150m) - and it usually comes back to bite them in the ass a few years later. Hughton kept both Norwich and Brighton up with a fraction of the money most other promoted clubs spend - in particular the case of Brighton because he laid the foundations for Potter's later success. To keep the teams up he had to play to their strengths - tight defence, not taking risks and battling for results. He didn't have to do that at Newcastle because he actually had a squad capable of playing in the PL. Forest were also a basket-case when he took them over - his first objective was to save them from relegation - which he did.
It's not a myth that, in his last two seasons at Brighton, finishing 15th and 17th, he scored less than a goal a game(60 goals in 76 games = 0.78), and conceded 1.5 goals a game (114 in 76 games = 1.5)
The following season, Potter's first in charge. he turned both stats around,scoring 39 goals in 38 games, and conceding 54, or 1.6 per game. In his second season in charge, they again scored more than a goal a game(40) and improved defensively


Forest had so many injuries at the start of the second season that Hughton basically had no choice but to shut up shop and wait until he got players back - except it didn't work - and Hughton paid the price. But - as I have pointed out - three months later Forest were still in 17th place - they then won three on the trot - two against the bottom two teams - and they jumped to 8th. In January they brought in five new players - and four of them played a crucial role in getting Forest promoted. If Hughton had the players that Copper had at his disposal then Forest would not have been conservative. Hughton knows how to get teams promoted and/or into the play-offs (and to keep them in the PL when they are promoted).
Quite a bit left out there. Hughton lost six of the first seven games of the season, drawing the other. Following his sacking, they only lost six more for the rest of the season. It's true that the team jumped from 13th to eighth, but the Championship has a notoriously congested league table. At the moment, Watford are 13th with 21 points, the right set of results could see them jump to ninth with a win, or drop to 19th with a loss.
There's a summary of Forest's 2021/22 season on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%9322_Nottingham_Forest_F.C._season

[osarusan]

In terms of who we can possibly get for the job considering the money on offer, unless we go for a punt on an unknown, Hughton is as good as we can hope for.

[Eirambler]

Definitely wouldn't want someone untried like Barry-Murphy. The only thing of note on his CV in terms of senior football is getting Rochdale relegated. His Rochdale team seemed to have no defensive structure, and that's the last thing we need from whoever gets the job next. Could be one to consider next time the under 21 job comes up, or maybe the under 17/under 19 jobs, but that's about it.

We need to become hard to beat again, first and foremost.

[JR89]

I wouldn't write off every untried manager. More and more clubs are giving coaches a shot rather than going the usual suspects route. Portsmouth are unbeaten in the league going back till March 16th and their manager was still playing with Oxford this time last year.

I wouldn't mind Anthony Barry coming in as manager. Has worked with the players before. Unfortunately I doubt he'd walk away from both Bayern and Portugal for Ireland, and don't think the FAI would go the route of having a manager who double jobs.

[CraftyToePoke]

I wouldn't mind Anthony Barry coming in as manager. Has worked with the players before. Unfortunately I doubt he'd walk away from both Bayern and Portugal for Ireland, and don't think the FAI would go the route of having a manager who double jobs.

Had he wanted it, all he had to do was stay where he was surely ? He'd probably have it by now even. Exactly they type of appointment which would have his head turned soon as some attention came his way and soon after that he'd be gone, just like he did already. It'd be nice, but it'd be brief, and it'd lead to uncertainty and having to appoint again, when what we probably need is unspectacular stability for a bit, keep giving games to the young lads and try not to lose so often, while not resorting to launching it. That's sadly where we are stuck.

[Jolly Red Giant]

It's not a myth that, in his last two seasons at Brighton, finishing 15th and 17th, he scored less than a goal a game(60 goals in 76 games = 0.78), and conceded 1.5 goals a game (114 in 76 games = 1.5)
The following season, Potter's first in charge. he turned both stats around,scoring 39 goals in 38 games, and conceding 54, or 1.6 per game. In his second season in charge, they again scored more than a goal a game(40) and improved defensively

As usual - the stats do not tell the full story - Brighton had a championship level squad when they were promoted and Hughton spent £5m on Matt Ryan, £5m on Davy Propper, £3m on Pascal Gross - then, needing pace, £10m on Jurgen Locadia and £10m on José Izquierdo - and both Locadia and Izquierdo promptly got hurt, Locadia only played 6 games in his first season. For goals Hughton had to rely on Glenn Murray.

Like all promoted clubs - it is very difficult to get PL quality players to join in the first or second season - in the second season - he signed Bissouma (£12), Dan Burn (£3m), Montoya (£6m), Alexis Mac Allister (£6m), Andone (£4m) and, again looking for pace, Jahanbakhsh (£13.5m) - who immediately ended up injured and played less than half the games that season.

Hughton struggled - like all newly promoted managers do - to get in PL quality players - but he did get Bissouma, MacAllister (who was loaned back to Argentina as part of the deal and never played for Hughton), Gross, Propper and Matt Ryan who turned out to be a decent goalkeeper.

Throughout the two years Brighton were never in the relegation zone - Hughton did what he was supposed to do - he kept the club in the PL. If Potter had been manager of Brighton with the players that Hughton had, they would have gone straight back down.

When Potter was appointed what did Dan Ashworth do - He spent £18m on Trossard, £20m on Webster, £22m on Maupay - and £10m upfront for Mooy and a further £10m the following January (on top of that they also bought Matt Clarke and Tariq Lamptey for a combined £13m). For four players Potter and Ainsworth spent more money than Hughton spent in two seasons - and they had the players that Hughton brought in as the foundation for the team.

Hughton's first game in the PL was against Man City and the team was - Ryan, Bruno, Duffy, Dunk, Suttner, March, Stephens, Propper, Brown (a loanee from Chelsea who no longer plays football), Gross and Hemed.

At the end of Potter's first season the starting 11 against Newcastle were - Ryan, Webster, Dunk, Burn, Lamptey, Stephens, Trossard, Bissouma, Gross, Maupay and Mooy (and MacAllister came on as a sub).

There is zero comparison in the quality of both teams - Hughton's team were Championship quality - Potter's team had players who have raked in more than £120m in transfer fees (mostly from players Hughton signed). You give Hughton the team that Potter had available and Hughton does not need to play defensive football - his team would have played like his Newcastle team, his Birmingham team and the Brighton team he had in the Championship.


Quite a bit left out there. Hughton lost six of the first seven games of the season, drawing the other. Following his sacking, they only lost six more for the rest of the season. It's true that the team jumped from 13th to eighth, but the Championship has a notoriously congested league table. At the moment, Watford are 13th with 21 points, the right set of results could see them jump to ninth with a win, or drop to 19th with a loss.
There's a summary of Forest's 2021/22 season on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%9322_Nottingham_Forest_F.C._season

And, once again, the summary doesn't tell the full story

Forest were hit with a spate of injuries at the start of the season - several first team regulars were out. On top of that the Forest owner wouldn't go out and try and get the players Hughton wanted and then panicked and bought in several donkeys that Hughton didn't want on deadline day. On top of that Hughton spent most of August trying to bring in loanees to fill the gaps left by the owners antics - and didn't succeed again until deadline day when Garner, Lowe, and Spence arrived. Hughton was sacked two weeks later before he had any time to work with the players that he had available. Two wins would have got them up to 13th - 3 places higher than Forest were at the end of November. When Forest got Cooper the fans demanded action - so the Forest owner went out in January and got players that Cooper wanted - Steve Cook from Bournemouth, Surridge from Stoke, and Kienan Davis from Villa. With the injuries out of the way, the extra loanees in and the new players in January - Cooper had a completely new team. In the last game of the season Cooper only had two players from the team that Hughton had to put out for the first game - and if Hughton had the players at his disposal that Cooper was given then, he may not have got them promoted, but they would have been there or thereabouts.

Now - the year at Forest was a disaster for Hughton - but here is the rub - the much vaunted Graham Potter still doesn't have a job after his disaster at Chelsea - Hughton is going to a major international tournament with a team he has successfully qualified (that is if the Ghanaian FA don't do something stupid like sack him because he wants to pick his own squad).

[tetsujin1979]

You've no way of proving that Hughton's team would have played differently if he had player X available.

Also, Potter doesn't have a job because he doesn't want a job. He got a massive pay off after being sacked by Chelsea and won't need to work for the rest of his life if he doesn't want to.

[John83]

You've no way of proving that Hughton's team would have played differently if he had player X available.
That may be so, but there is the comparison made earlier of how the more ambitious teams he had in the Championship played. His teams are not homogeneously defensive, and the argument that he was only defensive when operating in the PL with a limited budget is pursuasive to me.

There's also little point comparing his team of recently promoted players augmented with a very limited budget to Potter's team of established PL players augmented with relatively big money.

[Razors left peg]

Look we can go over an back on myth or no myth, but for a lot of us "the eye test" says that his last few jobs havent gone well and his teams were crap to watch. What we seen on the pitch wasnt a myth, but some can argue that it was acceptable given the circumstances.

[Diggs246]

Even if his football is /was defensive
We can't continue being humiliated at international level? We have to stop the bleeding. So if he sets us up with strong defensive unit that uses our incredibly fast counter attacking players on the break, then that's fine.

As far as I'm concerned we, in all reality have zero points from the group. There was 4 professional football teams in our group and it looks like unfortunately we won't get 1 point against those other three teams.

Gibraltar are not a pro football team.
The 6 points against them really means very very little when you look it.

[Razors left peg]

Even if his football is /was defensive
We can't continue being humiliated at international level? We have to stop the bleeding. So if he sets us up with strong defensive unit that uses our incredibly fast counter attacking players on the break, then that's fine.

As far as I'm concerned we, in all reality have zero points from the group. There was 4 professional football teams in our group and it looks like unfortunately we won't get 1 point against those other three teams.

Gibraltar are not a pro football team.
The 6 points against them really means very very little when you look it.

Do we want to just be a defensive team forever so? Surely there has to be a happy medium!

[Diggs246]

Do we want to just be a defensive team forever so? Surely there has to be a happy medium!

I think we are all in agreement that the fai need to restructure football at all youth levels which absolutely should include changing our philosophy. The reality of our next senior international manager and probably the next few as well being honest, is to do the best he can to win and qualify us to tournaments.
International managers really dont have time to do anything else but that.

The happy medium won't happen ever while the fai are ...the fai

[Razors left peg]

I think we are all in agreement that the fai need to restructure football at all youth levels which absolutely should include changing our philosophy. The reality of our next senior international manager and probably the next few as well being honest, is to do the best he can to win and qualify us to tournaments.
International managers really dont have time to do anything else but that.

The happy medium won't happen ever while the fai are ...the fai

Our youth teams have been reasonably successful in the last few years, I dont know if thats a result of Dokters influence a few years ago, but all our youth teams now play pretty good football and we have a number of very technical players coming though the ranks. Why should that philosophy suddenly change when they get to the seniors.

[JR89]

I think we are all in agreement that the fai need to restructure football at all youth levels which absolutely should include changing our philosophy.

If Canham wants to make a lasting affect as DOF and going by his own playing background he should look to finally make futsal a thing in Ireland.

Always surprised me why futsal isn't played more here. A game that gives great importance on things such as ball control, creativity, and technique. All things you don't associate with Ireland as a football nation. It won't turn us into Brazil but we might start seeing players being more comfortable on the ball and better at using it in tight spaces.

[Diggs246]

The youth teams have done ok.
The point is the gap between the standard of player from u21 to senior international football is that it's absolutely a different sport. So a guy might be able to play the ball around at u21 level doesn't mean anything at senior competitive international level.

Serbia won the u21 euros( I think) and their winning goalkeeper went on to play against us, I think it' was the first game of MON and Keane last campaign.. he was literally the worst goal keeper I've ever seen playing senior professional football

[Supreme feet]

When you hear names like Lennon, Bruce and Keane being thrown around, I'd be okay with Hughton.

The way we played in Portugal and Ukraine, and home to Scotland and France, should be the blueprint for how we try to play in the future. Playing ball when it's on, not being afraid of receiving it, given licence to pass, link up, and create - but also being tough, resilient, aggressive, streetwise, and able to hit teams on the break with our pace. We should be capable of doing that, while not being so naïve and open at the back, and headless with our pressing. That's the dream, anyway.

Playing exciting, attacking football would be great if the likes of Moran, Razi, Orazi, Akechukwu, Zefi, O'Mahoney, Heffernan, Melia and others come through and get to EPL/Champions League starting XI standard. We just can't survive if we're doing that with lower Championship players and benchwarmers. I love Jason Knight's hustle, but he's not technically up to it at the highest level, and he's probably been our best midfielder in this campaign.

Unless the game has completely passed him by in the last few years, I don't think Hughton would necessarily signal a regression to the aimless, blundering long-ball stuff and frustrating conservatism with selection that we suffered through in the past. Like Doyle, Walters and McGoldrick chasing their own flick-ons with no support; Sammon, Cox, Green and McShane being preferred to Long, Hoolahan, Andy Reid and Coleman; or all those times when we put ten men behind the ball against the likes of Georgia.

[EalingGreen]

As usual - the stats do not tell the full story - Brighton had a championship level squad when they were promoted and Hughton spent £5m on Matt Ryan, £5m on Davy Propper, £3m on Pascal Gross - then, needing pace, £10m on Jurgen Locadia and £10m on José Izquierdo - and both Locadia and Izquierdo promptly got hurt, Locadia only played 6 games in his first season. For goals Hughton had to rely on Glenn Murray.

Like all promoted clubs - it is very difficult to get PL quality players to join in the first or second season - in the second season - he signed Bissouma (£12), Dan Burn (£3m), Montoya (£6m), Alexis Mac Allister (£6m), Andone (£4m) and, again looking for pace, Jahanbakhsh (£13.5m) - who immediately ended up injured and played less than half the games that season.

Hughton struggled - like all newly promoted managers do - to get in PL quality players - but he did get Bissouma, MacAllister (who was loaned back to Argentina as part of the deal and never played for Hughton), Gross, Propper and Matt Ryan who turned out to be a decent goalkeeper.
I'm not saying CH didn't do a good job with the players he had, or that he's a bad manager generally.

But it is a myth to say that "he signed" all those players, for Brighton (like eg Brentford), have a very sophisticated stats- and analysis-driven recruitment system which relies on a huge network of individuals' input to make it work:
https://www.wearebrighton.com/newsopinion/recruitment-from-far-and-wide-the-secret-to-brighton-success/

Within that set-up, the manager (head coach?) will obviously have a say on signings, but by no means the final one, never mind the only one.

And in the wider context, this excerpt is notable:
"The approach is not just restricted to players. There is little doubt analytics and data played a part in putting Graham Potter in Bloom’s sights before Potter had even left little-known Ostersunds for Swansea City."

In other words, regardless of how well BHA thought of Hughton, they must have felt their system had identified a better manager in Potter, with their subsequent progress arguing the point very strongly.

[elatedscum]

The youth teams have done ok.
The point is the gap between the standard of player from u21 to senior international football is that it's absolutely a different sport. So a guy might be able to play the ball around at u21 level doesn't mean anything at senior competitive international level.

Serbia won the u21 euros( I think) and their winning goalkeeper went on to play against us, I think it' was the first game of MON and Keane last campaign.. he was literally the worst goal keeper I've ever seen playing senior professional football

You can basically drop 21s into 3 camps:

1) sure things / definite or very likely to get caps or to be an international
2) have a chance if things go right
3) 21s is the limit of their potential

Looking at the previous 21s group from 2000/01, it's something like this

1) Collins, Knight, Obafemi, Idah, Smallbone, Connolly

2) Lyons, O'Connor, McGuinness, O'Brien, Bagan, Coventry, Kilkenny, Connell, Devoy, Johansson, Noss, Tierney, Kerrigan, Wright, Moylan, Omochere, Afolabi

3) Maher, McEntee, Richards, O'Malley, Ledwidge, Bowden, Hondermarck, Watson, Grant (probably), McEneff, Kavanagh, Flynn, Gilbert, Ferry, Regba, Kayodi (probably), Cassidy, Williams

[EalingGreen]

Also, Potter doesn't have a job because he doesn't want a job. He got a massive pay off after being sacked by Chelsea and won't need to work for the rest of his life if he doesn't want to.I would qualify that slightly to say it's not that GP doesn't want a job, rather it's that he doesn't want just any job.

That is, he can afford to be choosy. And that while JRG explains CH's periods out of work by saying he was turning down lots of job offers, the same holds true for GP since leaving Chelsea. And without having any inside or expert knowledge, I'd still be prepared to bet that some of the jobs GP is turning down are rather more attractive than those CH rejected.

[Jolly Red Giant]

You've no way of proving that Hughton's team would have played differently if he had player X available.
Evidence suggests otherwise -

At Newcastle Hughton had a squad that included Jose Enrique, Kevin Nolan, Joey Barton, Danny Simpson, Joans Gutterrez, Alan Smith, Mike Williamson, Andy Carroll, Shola Ameobi, Cheick Toite, Lua Lua, Steven Taylor, Peter Lovenkrands, - that squad played exciting attacking football - they scored a lot of goals and they let in a lot of goals - beating Villa 6-0, Sunderland 5-1, and losing to Bolton 5-1 - by the time Hughton was sacked only four teams had scored more goals - Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Bolton.

The year Brighton won promotion they scored 74 goals (only Newcastle scored more) - and they had one stretch unbeaten in 18 with 14 wins. Four players scored more than ten goals each - Glenn Murray got 23. At times they were knocking goals in for fun.

One other thing with Hughton's teams - they knew how to score from set-pieces.


Also, Potter doesn't have a job because he doesn't want a job. He got a massive pay off after being sacked by Chelsea and won't need to work for the rest of his life if he doesn't want to.
Graham Potter is a very ambitious individual - and has stated as much himself - the teams that he has been linked with include such luminaries as Rangers, Lyon and the Swedish international job - except he didn't make the short-list of any of them.

You say he is not working because he doesn't want a job - I would argue it is because he hasn't been offered a job by anyone. His f*uk-up at Chelsea was so bad and so public that many clubs won't touch him with a barge pole. Now - he will eventually get a job because managers are recycled - but I would be surprised if he gets one in the PL because anyone looking for a manager there will be desperate to avoid relegation and Potter has never shown he is capable of doing that kind of a job. It is far more likely that he will reappear in France or the low countries or Scandinavia.

[texidub]

I can't think about Chris Hughton without remembering a game in Lansdowne Road early in Jack's reign.. might have been against Uruguay. Hughton, who I agree always comes across really well as a person and who was pretty classy as a player too, was playing and made a great tackle, crowd were happy enough. At some point later in the match he made a hames of something ,tumbled over the ball, and (IIRC) conceded a corner. One of a group of lads in front of me turned to his mates and went '****ing bl*ck b*rsteward' and they all roared laughing. Scumbags. Not that there's ever any excuse, but this wasn't even abuse aimed at someone on another team!!

Footballing-wise, he wouldn't be a bad choice at all. Beyond football (and there are elements of the Ireland team that are beyond the 90 minutes) part of me thinks he shouldn't bother his hole taking on the Ireland job given some of the toxic attitudes of yesteryear, but he probably isn't as petty as I am. Another part of me thinks about how much Ireland, and Irish football, has changed since the mid-80s and in that context he would be brilliant.

[pineapple stu]

Playing exciting, attacking football would be great if the likes of Moran, Razi, Orazi, Akechukwu, Zefi, O'Mahoney, Heffernan, Melia and others come through and get to EPL/Champions League starting XI standard.
While I agree with your point in general, the way you've phrased it here does sound a bit...ambitious, I think. Moran looks a player, though it's early days yet. Any of the others could be on the scrapheap in five years' time. The odds are surely against any of them making it at the level you suggest?

It's a bigger problem than our manager, though of the manager is an easier fix in theory (and is surely part of the problem of course)

[Jolly Red Giant]

That is, he can afford to be choosy. And that while JRG explains CH's periods out of work by saying he was turning down lots of job offers, the same holds true for GP since leaving Chelsea. And without having any inside or expert knowledge, I'd still be prepared to bet that some of the jobs GP is turning down are rather more attractive than those CH rejected.
Well - we do know that Hughton turned down Watford, Bristol City and WBA before taking the Forest job (my contact contends that he was also offered two other jobs that he turned down). He was also offered several jobs as a first team coach by PL clubs after leaving Brighton - and he is now with Ghana (and it is unlikely at 64 years of age that he will end up in club management again)

You say that Potter won't take any job - and I am sure that is true. The PR machine was in overdrive when the media were claiming that he turned down the Lyon job before there was even a vacancy there. He publicly ruled himself out of the Rangers job after he didn't make the shortlist - and there was PR about him turning down Nice. Word emerges that he is 'interested' in a job and reports come out saying he rejected the job. In fact the only job that looks like it was a realistic prospect was Leicester immediately after he was sacked by Chelsea - but Potter isn't a fight relegation manager - he is a given me a stable club, with a decent squad and buy me lots of new players, type of manager.

Now - I think Potter is a decent manager (not as good as De Zebri but decent) - but I do think he has to be in a very good situation for him to succeed. His reputation has been inflated by a very good PR machine that he has behind him. For example - he was touted as a genius for taking Ostersund from the fourth tier of Swedish football to the top division with no money. It turned out afterwards that the chairman was charged, convicted and imprisoned for embezzlement, bribery, accounting and tax offences after siphoning off large sums of government money and local council grants (he had to pay back almost €1m) and funneling them through the club to bring in players who were subsequently paid under the table. Potter jumped ship just as the sh*t was about to hit the fan. Ostersund have been declining since and will eventually end back at their real level.

Potter took over Swansea when they had been relegated from the PL - they had parachute money and held most of their squad together. In Potter's only season they finished 10th with a +3 goal difference and bounced between 8th and 15th the entire season. He then ended up bouncing into the Brighton job because of Dan Ashworth - with a transfer budget of £100m and Bissouma, MacAllister, Dunk, Burn, March, Sanchez, Gross, and Propper already in the squad.

By the way - Brighton have absolutely fleeced Chelsea over the past couple of years - £21.5m for Potter - Cucurella for £63m - Sanchez for £25m - Caicedo for £115m (after they used Liverpool to bump up the price). Tony Bloom is one of the smartest owners in the PL.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I'm not saying CH didn't do a good job with the players he had, or that he's a bad manager generally.

But it is a myth to say that "he signed" all those players, for Brighton (like eg Brentford), have a very sophisticated stats- and analysis-driven recruitment system which relies on a huge network of individuals' input to make it work:
https://www.wearebrighton.com/newsopinion/recruitment-from-far-and-wide-the-secret-to-brighton-success/

Within that set-up, the manager (head coach?) will obviously have a say on signings, but by no means the final one, never mind the only one.

And in the wider context, this excerpt is notable:
"The approach is not just restricted to players. There is little doubt analytics and data played a part in putting Graham Potter in Bloom’s sights before Potter had even left little-known Ostersunds for Swansea City."

In other words, regardless of how well BHA thought of Hughton, they must have felt their system had identified a better manager in Potter, with their subsequent progress arguing the point very strongly.
You are 100% correct about how clubs approach signing players - but Hughton did have a say. By the way - Brighton did buy some donkeys during Hughton's two year stint with them in the PL - so the analytics can produce duds as well.

I have explained Potter's unwarranted reputation from Ostersund - and anyone having him on their radar after the scandal that broke would be an idiot. He got the job at Brighton not because Bloom had been eyeing up Potter - but because Dan Ashworth was appointed to a position where he could get Hughton sacked and Potter appointed

[elatedscum]

While I agree with your point in general, the way you've phrased it here does sound a bit...ambitious, I think. Moran looks a player, though it's early days yet. Any of the others could be on the scrapheap in five years' time. The odds are surely against any of them making it at the level you suggest?

It's a bigger problem than our manager, though of the manager is an easier fix in theory (and is surely part of the problem of course)

Ike Orazi is a beast and will be playing for Ireland by somewhere in the 20-23 range depending on how it pans out... His medium end outcome is Festy Ebosele. His high end outcome is really really good.

[Jolly Red Giant]

The youth teams have done ok.
The point is the gap between the standard of player from u21 to senior international football is that it's absolutely a different sport. So a guy might be able to play the ball around at u21 level doesn't mean anything at senior competitive international level.

Serbia won the u21 euros( I think) and their winning goalkeeper went on to play against us, I think it' was the first game of MON and Keane last campaign.. he was literally the worst goal keeper I've ever seen playing senior professional football
What you are hoping for - and what the target should be - is 2/3 players from each of the underage teams come through over a 5/6 period - it allows the best players for continuity at full international level and then some replenishing to be done.

Now - this seems to be the best crop of kids since the youth teams with Keane, Duff, Richard Dunne - and the problem is to keep a steady flow of talent coming through rather than having booms and slumps. That requires organisation, structure and some really good coaching at underage level.

[seanfhear]

What you are hoping for - and what the target should be - is 2/3 players from each of the underage teams come through over a 5/6 period - it allows the best players for continuity at full international level and then some replenishing to be done.

Now - this seems to be the best crop of kids since the youth teams with Keane, Duff, Richard Dunne - and the problem is to keep a steady flow of talent coming through rather than having booms and slumps. That requires organisation, structure and some really good coaching at underage level.
And weeding out " The Headers " (wink)

[Jolly Red Giant]

While I agree with your point in general, the way you've phrased it here does sound a bit...ambitious, I think. Moran looks a player, though it's early days yet. Any of the others could be on the scrapheap in five years' time. The odds are surely against any of them making it at the level you suggest?

It's a bigger problem than our manager, though of the manager is an easier fix in theory (and is surely part of the problem of course)
Moran has a lot of potential - I do think he needs to bulk up a bit - he is small and light-weight at the moment. He needs to be stocky if he is small so that he doesn't get pushed off the ball. Seeing him standing beside Ferguson (who is a big lad) really shows how light he is. Now - I think Moran will develop - he has recently been given a long-term contract by Brighton and they don't do that lightly.

Here is the problem - both Connolly and Molumby came through the Brighton set-up and I blame Potter for both going off the boil. With Connolly he put him into the first team squad too early - he should have given him a year on loan in the Championship (or even League One). Molumby was a different problem. As an underage player Molumby was a midfield passer of the ball - I can't remember which underage international I saw but he was pinging the ball around like Liam Brady used to do. He went on loan to Millwall and did well - but then he went on a disasterous loan to Preston where they wanted him to be a box-to-box chase down the ball type of player and I think it ruined him. He didn't know what type of player he should be - he lost his confidence in his ability to pass the ball and when he went to WBA on loan they used him in exactly the same way as Preston did. He seems lost to me and can't get to grips with his role (which leads him into rash tackles and not having much influence on games). This is now impacting him at WBA because the new manager doesn't want that type of player in his midfield and there is a danger that Molumby will start to drift down through lower teams.

So - to summarise - in my opinion - Brighton should have sent Connolly out on loan and after Millwall they should have kept Molumby at home and coached up his passing ability. It looks like Connolly is starting to turn a corner - but unfortunately I think Molumby will start to slip down the ladder with Ireland as (and if) other midfielders come through (which is our weakest position at the moment).

I do think O'Mahoney has a good chance - he is doing very well at Brighton - and he is a clone of Ferguson. If he turns out to be 25% of what Ferguson is he will be a decent footballer.

I have also been impressed with Sinclair Armstrong, Bosun Lawal and Tony Springett and to a lesser degree Rocco Vata. Trent Kone-Doherty also looks like he could be good. If we were to get the five of them with Moran and O'Mahoney we would have a good haul from the U-21s and U-19s.

And we do need a manager who at least looks like he knows what he is doing.

By the way - I think that the LOI will benefit significantly from the large number of players in the underage set-up - a lot of them could end up with really good LOI careers and significantly raise the standard of LOI football.

[Razors left peg]

Moran has a lot of potential - I do think he needs to bulk up a bit - he is small and light-weight at the moment. He needs to be stocky if he is small so that he doesn't get pushed off the ball. Seeing him standing beside Ferguson (who is a big lad) really shows how light he is. Now - I think Moran will develop - he has recently been given a long-term contract by Brighton and they don't do that lightly.



I agree to a point, and he will naturally bulk up as he gets older, but in modern day football the likes of Foden and David Silva are not particularly muscular

[Supreme feet]

While I agree with your point in general, the way you've phrased it here does sound a bit...ambitious, I think. Moran looks a player, though it's early days yet. Any of the others could be on the scrapheap in five years' time. The odds are surely against any of them making it at the level you suggest?

It's a bigger problem than our manager, though of the manager is an easier fix in theory (and is surely part of the problem of course)

I probably should have bolded the 'if' in my post!

If we want to get back to being competitive in qualification groups, we do need a core of 7-8 players operating at Nathan Collins's level, or higher.

Albania are on the verge of qualifying, which seems like a huge shock, but they have players at Chelsea, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Atalanta, Eintracht Frankfurt and Benfica, which is a level above the vast majority of our squad. It's not that long ago (v Uruguay in 2017) that we could put out a starting XI of Premier League regulars.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, fair. The Championship is a decent league but there's a big gap to the Premier (as Burnley are showing) and there's a big gap from the bottom half to the Champions League. And a lot of average countries have a core of even 2/3 players at that level which is a big advantage over us.

I was looking at that Albania squad recently and was amazed how strong it was. Tis a good example. I think we're a long way off that level. Which is quite a depressing thing to have to acknowledge!

[Jolly Red Giant]

I probably should have bolded the 'if' in my post!

If we want to get back to being competitive in qualification groups, we do need a core of 7-8 players operating at Nathan Collins's level, or higher.

Albania are on the verge of qualifying, which seems like a huge shock, but they have players at Chelsea, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Atalanta, Eintracht Frankfurt and Benfica, which is a level above the vast majority of our squad. It's not that long ago (v Uruguay in 2017) that we could put out a starting XI of Premier League regulars.
I think you are over-egging the standard of that team in 2017

Randolph wasn't a regular at West Ham
Christie was in the Championship
Duffy was just after getting promoted with Brighton a couple of weeks earlier
Long played 3 games in the PL the previous season
Ward was a regular at Burnley
Whelan had just left Burnley to join Villa in the Championship
Arter was a regular at Bournemouth
Brady had just left Norwich in the Championship for Burnley
Hendrick was a regular for Burnley
Hayes was with Aberdeen
Walters with a sub at Stoke and on his way to Burnley where he didn't play

Of the subs
John O'Shea had just been relegated with Sunderland
McClean was a regular with WBA
And the rest were playing Championship or below.

Hardly inspiring -

Now - on top of that - since mid 2017 a stack of PL clubs have been taken over by vulture funds - Villa, Bournemouth, Burnley, Eveton, Newcastle, Wolves - to add to the others already owned by billionaire funds - and they are looking more at their balance sheet than anything else. Irish players do not traditionally generate high transfer fees, especially in comparison to English players (and our traditional involvement in English football and prejudice against the Irish leads Irish players being regarded as second class English players). If Rice had remained with Ireland, West Ham would have got £50m or less for him - same with Grealish. Interesting side fact - the five most expensive English footballers of all time all hold Irish passports.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Yeah, fair. The Championship is a decent league but there's a big gap to the Premier (as Burnley are showing) and there's a big gap from the bottom half to the Champions League. And a lot of average countries have a core of even 2/3 players at that level which is a big advantage over us.

That is our problem - We don't have people playing at CL level which does have an impact. You have to go back to 2011 or 2012 when the likes of O'Shea, Robbie Keane, McGeady and Darren Gibson were playing. And the only real prospect we have at the moment is Ferguson (Kelleher has played a few - but that doesn't really count).

Now - that doesn't mean that we cannot have a good international team - it means that the coaching staff know how to maximise what we have available, make us difficult to beat, and can score a few goals that can win us enough games to qualify (and Ferguson comes into play there again).

We can play all the pretty passing football we want when the ball is in our own half - but that doesn't cut it when teams can cut through your defence like a knife through butter.

[Supreme feet]

I think you are over-egging the standard of that team in 2017

Randolph wasn't a regular at West Ham
Christie was in the Championship
Duffy was just after getting promoted with Brighton a couple of weeks earlier
Long played 3 games in the PL the previous season
Ward was a regular at Burnley
Whelan had just left Burnley to join Villa in the Championship
Arter was a regular at Bournemouth
Brady had just left Norwich in the Championship for Burnley
Hendrick was a regular for Burnley
Hayes was with Aberdeen
Walters with a sub at Stoke and on his way to Burnley where he didn't play
.

Okay, fair enough, The stat came from something I read on The42 a while back, which was obviously BS, and I didn't check it.

Still, between 2014 and 2017, our first-choice team was generally Randolph; Coleman, Brady/Ward, Duffy/O'Shea, Clark/Keogh; McCarthy, Whelan/Meyler, Hoolahan/Hendrick, McClean, Walters, Long/Murphy.

We consistently had a core of well-established EPL players, or players with significant EPL experience, starting for us. The others were at the top end of the Championship (Murphy was the top scorer in the Championship, with 27 goals, in 2015/6). It was a far, far better squad than we have now.

[tetsujin1979]

FWIW the last time we had a starting XI of entirely Premier League players was V Germany in 2006, Staunton's first competitive game.
Shay Given(Newcastle Utd)
John O'Shea(Manchester United)
Andy O'Brien(Portsmouth)
Richard Dunne(Manchester City)
Stephen Carr(Newcastle Utd)
Damien Duff(Newcastle Utd)
Steven Reid(Blackburn)
Kevin Kilbane(Wigan)
Steve Finnan(Liverpool)
Kevin Doyle(Reading)
Robbie Keane(Tottenham)

That sounds bad, and it is, but you have to remember that Robbie moved to MLS soon after, and he started every game he was available for, so any game he did start had at least one player who wasn't in the Premier League

[passinginterest]

FWIW the last time we had a starting XI of entirely Premier League players was V Germany in 2006, Staunton's first competitive game.
Shay Given(Newcastle Utd)
John O'Shea(Manchester United)
Andy O'Brien(Portsmouth)
Richard Dunne(Manchester City)
Stephen Carr(Newcastle Utd)
Damien Duff(Newcastle Utd)
Steven Reid(Blackburn)
Kevin Kilbane(Wigan)
Steve Finnan(Liverpool)
Kevin Doyle(Reading)
Robbie Keane(Tottenham)

That sounds bad, and it is, but you have to remember that Robbie moved to MLS soon after, and he started every game he was available for, so any game he did start had at least one player who wasn't in the Premier League

I suppose it might be interesting to count down from last time we had 10, 9, 8, etc. The least premier league players in a starting line-up for a competitive fixture?

[zero]

Ghana being held at home by Madagascar. 0-0 at the moment with about 20 mins to go. Hughton could be available fairly soon...

edit: ghana score in the 96th minute with basically the last play of the game.

[Razors left peg]

Ghana being held at home by Madagascar. 0-0 at the moment with about 20 mins to go. Hughton could be available fairly soon...

edit: ghana score in the 96th minute with basically the last play of the game.

This is why we shouldnt want him

[SkStu]

Did Hughton pee in your cornflakes Razor? I know JRG is at one end of the spectrum but you seem to be firmly entrenched at the other end and I'm not sure its as black and white as either of you making out. Given the constraints we are working within, he has a case to be considered. Decent, if imperfect, track record as a manager, Irish, respected coach. He'd also be our first black manager which would be pretty cool (but shouldnt influence the choice if there are better candidates).

[pineapple stu]

They won 1-0 in the end; 96th minute winner. He may be a lucky general too :)

Rajo Razafindraibeharimihanta got booked for Madagascar. Madagascan names are great!