Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[SkStu]

Then why do I feel so bad Mark? Why?

[Razors left peg]

I keep seeing write ups on Kieran McKenna and I know we wouldn't get him over a Premiership club or due to Ipswich's likely promotion but wouldn't he be great? In another era, the job might have attracted him. An Ireland supporter to boot having gone to the Euros.

Apparently McKenna is on 1.5 million a year with a 4 mil buyout clause... so in other words we've as much chance of getting Guardiola right now

[seanfhear]

Apparently McKenna is on 1.5 million a year with a 4 mil buyout clause... so in other words we've as much chance of getting Guardiola right now
That is the kinda money available with some of the clubs in the championship now.

[Eirambler]

'Carsley closes on Republic job" according to British journalist Alan Nixon this morning.

[liamoo11]

Apparently McKenna is on 1.5 million a year with a 4 mil buyout clause... so in other words we've as much chance of getting Guardiola right now

He was a huge risk given his lack of experience and lack of a playing career so it's great it's worked out so well.

[Stuttgart88]

I’d have him at Celtic in a heartbeat

[Eirambler]

If the reports are true (and Nixon tends to be right a lot more often than he is wrong), you'd have to say luring Carsley would be a successful outcome on paper for the FAI. Plenty of Championship clubs would definitely take him if they could get him, so it's positive that it looks like he is going to choose the Ireland job over other options.

[CSAD]

If the reports are true (and Nixon tends to be right a lot more often than he is wrong), you'd have to say luring Carsley would be a successful outcome on paper for the FAI. Plenty of Championship clubs would definitely take him if they could get him, so it's positive that it looks like he is going to choose the Ireland job over other options.

You also have to remember with Ireland he’s likely going to have at least 3-4 years in the job whereas with a championship club, eg Stoke, he could be out in 10 months.

[Razors left peg]

I joined Nixons Patreon to get access to what he said. Nothing new and wish I didn't bother, but here it is anyway....

By Alan Nixon



England under-21 coach Lee Carsley is closing in on a shock switch to become the new Republic of Ireland number one.




Carsley led the Young Lions to European success but is now open to a step up to the senior ranks.




And the Irish have short listed him immediately for their post after letting Stephen Kenny go, with the highly rated coach prepared to move.




Carsley has been linked with club jobs but the Irish post appeals to him - although it will be a big job to get them back to winning ways.




It would be the second time Carsley has been part of the Irish set up as he played for them in an illustrious career.




Carsley, 49, was born in Birmingham but played 40 times for the Republic after picking them as his nation.

[LurcherLover]

I joined Nixons Patreon to get access to what he said. Nothing new and wish I didn't bother, but here it is anyway....

By Alan Nixon



England under-21 coach Lee Carsley is closing in on a shock switch to become the new Republic of Ireland number one.




Carsley led the Young Lions to European success but is now open to a step up to the senior ranks.




And the Irish have short listed him immediately for their post after letting Stephen Kenny go, with the highly rated coach prepared to move.




Carsley has been linked with club jobs but the Irish post appeals to him - although it will be a big job to get them back to winning ways.




It would be the second time Carsley has been part of the Irish set up as he played for them in an illustrious career.




Carsley, 49, was born in Birmingham but played 40 times for the Republic after picking them as his nation.
That's Patreon content?! Typical Nixon, an absolute spoofer who throws a tantrum every time someone calls him out online for the things he gets wrong. He knows as much as we do.

[pineapple stu]

England under-21 coach Lee Carsley is closing in on a shock switch to become the new Republic of Ireland number one.
A "shock" switch - really?

[John83]

Just another football journalism cliché. The word is decorative.

[Razors left peg]

It was certainly a waste of $3 LOL

[pineapple stu]

Crikey - talk about taking one for the team RLP!

Hardly worth it, but you've saved the rest of us the price of half a pint :p

[Razors left peg]

Crikey - talk about taking one for the team RLP!

Hardly worth it, but you've saved the rest of us the price of half a pint :p

Think of it as my Xmas present to Foot.ie :D

[Eirambler]

Well, if it's correct, if nothing else it does at least say that he's actually interested in the Ireland job, which I think is the first time that's actually been said anywhere.

Just remember to cancel the Patreon subscription before next month RLP!

[Razors left peg]

Well, if it's correct, if nothing else it does at least say that he's actually interested in the Ireland job, which I think is the first time that's actually been said anywhere.

Just remember to cancel the Patreon subscription before next month RLP!

Already canceled :)

I still think my theory from early in the week is right, in that he spoke to FAI and has let it leak that he's spoken to Stoke. That story came out when the Barry story gained traction. Trying to force the FAI into making a decision.

I think we can connect the dots back to Dunne, Kilbane and Harte talking Carsley up for the job in the summer too, I don't believe they do that without knowing he wants it.

Also, I've seen people speculating that he might fancy the England job after Southgate, I think the clubs he's been linked with recently show that he's a million miles from getting the England job so Ireland job would be attractive.

I'll be very disappointed if it's anyone else other than him tbh

[ifk101]

I'd have doubts about Carsley. I prefer him to Hughton but his coaching/ managerial merits are with underage teams. Can't say I'm an avid follower of the England U21 team :-), but saw a good chunk of the U21 final and thought Spain were all over them despite England having an arguably better squad on paper.

[EalingGreen]

I'd have doubts about Carsley.I wouldn't.

He was extremely highly thought of at Brentford after managing their Development Squad, and they really wanted to appoint him as their Manager/Head Coach when a vacancy arose. He did very well in a temporary capacity, but declined a permanent appointment for (genuine) family reasons, preferring to take up the FA job, since it was nearer his home in the Midlands.

And Brentford's record in appointing managers, from all sorts of backgrounds, has been consistently excellent over a decade or more.

[ifk101]

I wouldn't.

He was extremely highly thought of at Brentford after managing their Development Squad, and they really wanted to appoint him as their Manager/Head Coach when a vacancy arose. He did very well in a temporary capacity, but declined a permanent appointment for (genuine) family reasons, preferring to take up the FA job, since it was nearer his home in the Midlands.

But why was he "extremely highly thought of at Brentford"? Expand on that. How do you think he'll set us up to play if appointed?


And Brentford's record in appointing managers, from all sorts of backgrounds, has been consistently excellent over a decade or more.

Expect that lad Carsley replaced ...

[LurcherLover]

But why was he "extremely highly thought of at Brentford"? Expand on that. How do you think he'll set us up to play if appointed
He's supposed to be a very good cook.

[EalingGreen]

But why was he "extremely highly thought of at Brentford"? Expand on that. How do you think he'll set us up to play if appointed?

Good at working with players, youth as well as experienced, tactically aware, young(ish) and progressive, likes attacking football etc - you know, management stuff.


Expect that lad Carsley replaced ...When Benham took over, his first managerial appointment was Uwe Rosler. He introduced a whole new level of professionalism to the club, even if his playing style was very defensive. Left for a bigger/better job.
Next was Mark Warburton - a "left-field" choice, in that although he had coaching badges, he had no great football background, having been a City trader and p-t youth coach at Watford before becoming Director of Football at BFC. He got them promotion from Lge One (and v.nearly from the Championship), with a much more attacking brand of football. Left because he demanded to be a Manager (e.g. full control over transfers etc), rather than the Head Coach position the club was transitioning to.
Dijkhuizen, whom you refer to, was promoted from within at the very start of the following summer, but even by the first league game in August, the club had doubts about their decision, and instead of, say, giving him until Christmas to see how it was going, they cut their losses after 9 games and binned him. Almost uniquely amongst owners, Benham held his hands up and admitted he (MB) had got it wrong. Dijkhuizen has since done sod-all in management.
Carsley was to be their next choice, but when he declined, they apppointed Dean Smith from Walsall. Smith embedded the Head Coach set-up and consolidated their position in the Championship, even while having a small budget and having to sell players. Left for his dream job at boyhood club, Villa.
Finally they replaced him with Dane Thomas Frank, from their coaching staff. He had never played football, having got into youth football as a PE teacher, eventually with the NT, before his first club job, where he left when he found out he was being undermined by his Chairman, who was posting against him under an assumed name on a fans forum! TF is now the 3rd longest PL manager after Guardiola and Klopp, and is doing an outstanding job.

The point being that each one of those choices was very different, yet four of the five took the club to the next level i.e. an 80% success rate, with the fifth being ditched before he could do any harm. Which record of appointments has to be right up there with the very best clubs in England. Meaning that if they are giving Carsley a good reference, I personally would trust their judgement.

[ifk101]

Good at working with players, youth as well as experienced, tactically aware, young(ish) and progressive, likes attacking football etc - you know, management stuff.

A ringing endorsement. And I hear he is a very good cook. I think I'm just looking for something more tangible to support his ability to get more out of a less talented group of (specifically senior) players.


When Benham took over ...

Brentford level completed.

[LurcherLover]

They only 'tangible" thing you're ever going to get regarding his ability is going to be reported or hearsay unless you know him personally or work(ed) with him. There's a lot of 'talk' about Carsley from his peers & higher, concerning his coaching ability. He's obviously a very respected and capable coach, whether he can succeed at senior level is something to be seen but all the evidence points towards him doing so.

[EalingGreen]

A ringing endorsement. And I hear he is a very good cook. I think I'm just looking for something more tangible to support his ability to get more out of a less talented group of (specifically senior) players. Knock yourself out:
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/tactical-theory/tactical-theory-coaching-england-u21s-build-up-play-tactical-analysis
https://trainingground.guru/articles/lee-carsley-why-england-u21s-choose-players-for-roles-not-positions
https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2549853/lee-carsley-this-job-is-a-privilege-ive-done-the-hard-yards-to-get-here
https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/joleon-lescott-interview-england-under-21s-manchester-city-everton-wolves/


Brentford level completed.No idea what that means.

[Razors left peg]

A ringing endorsement. And I hear he is a very good cook. I think I'm just looking for something more tangible to support his ability to get more out of a less talented group of (specifically senior) players.



Brentford level completed.

From a tangible point of view I suppose you could point to the Euros he won with their u21s. I know they have good players, but they always do and I think thats the 1st time they've won it? Its at least been quite a while.

U21s is technically youth football, but at that level they are professional players, and the egos that come with that. Its a bit different to u17s and u19s. So I dont worry about him never coaching senior players. The bulk of our teams are about 24 and under so for me its a massive plus that he is good with young players.

[LurcherLover]

The England U21s is full of players who are regulars in the PL. The team that won the Euros would play our senior team off the park week in week out.

[ifk101]

From a tangible point of view I suppose you could point to the Euros he won with their u21s. I know they have good players, but they always do and I think thats the 1st time they've won it? Its at least been quite a while.

U21s is technically youth football, but at that level they are professional players, and the egos that come with that. Its a bit different to u17s and u19s. So I dont worry about him never coaching senior players. The bulk of our teams are about 24 and under so for me its a massive plus that he is good with young players.

I haven’t seen enough of the English U21s but thought Spain had them pinned back in the final and they struggle to break Spain’s high press. They beat a relatively weak Israel in the semis but looking at the match stats against Portugal in the quarter finals, it would seem they also struggled against a team that put them on the back foot. That’s a worry for me because it says there was difficult in overcoming an opposition that can match England and/ or play a high press and possession game. If Carsley becomes manager, he is going to be facing stronger opposition than us in the qualifiers and going to be in games where we have less of the ball/ are on the back foot. And if he couldn’t figure a way to play out against Spain with the players England have, will he be able to do that with us – especially with our weakness in midfield? I think we could fall back into a situation with Carsley where the players aren’t good enough line comes out, and focus is structure, defending deep and hoping to nick something on a set play. Don’t get me wrong – if the choice is Carsley, Hughton or Allardyce – I’d pick Carsley. But my preference of the names mentioned most recently would be Barry as there is evidence (the tangible) he can make the players we have better.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Brentford level completed.
With all due respect to Brentford - they are a small club (they have spent most of their existence in the lower reaches of the Football League) - the fact that they have managed to get into the PL and stay there is quite remarkable.

[Jolly Red Giant]

The England U21s is full of players who are regulars in the PL. The team that won the Euros would play our senior team off the park week in week out.
Not completely true - they have some good players but the team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon) - now several others are breaking into their first teams this season - but it is a major stretch to suggest that they would play us off the park (unless Kenny was still head coach). But it also should be remembered that there were a lot of other very good teams in that competition - the Spanish team that they beat in the final did have several players who were regulars in La Liga (and in the PL in Portugal) in 22-23.

[Razors left peg]

I haven’t seen enough of the English U21s but thought Spain had them pinned back in the final and they struggle to break Spain’s high press. They beat a relatively weak Israel in the semis but looking at the match stats against Portugal in the quarter finals, it would seem they also struggled against a team that put them on the back foot. That’s a worry for me because it says there was difficult in overcoming an opposition that can match England and/ or play a high press and possession game. If Carsley becomes manager, he is going to be facing stronger opposition than us in the qualifiers and going to be in games where we have less of the ball/ are on the back foot. And if he couldn’t figure a way to play out against Spain with the players England have, will he be able to do that with us – especially with our weakness in midfield? I think we could fall back into a situation with Carsley where the players aren’t good enough line comes out, and focus is structure, defending deep and hoping to nick something on a set play. Don’t get me wrong – if the choice is Carsley, Hughton or Allardyce – I’d pick Carsley. But my preference of the names mentioned most recently would be Barry as there is evidence (the tangible) he can make the players we have better.

Stats are grand, but he beat Spain and Portugal and actually won the tournament. Our passing and possession stats were way up under Kenny but he lost alot.

[SkStu]

Don’t get me wrong – if the choice is Carsley, Hughton or Allardyce – I’d pick Carsley. But my preference of the names mentioned most recently would be Barry as there is evidence (the tangible) he can make the players we have better.

Barry for sure. I'd like to put John Eustace's name in there too. And I'd probably have Hughton ahead of Carsley. I wouldnt be upset at all though if Carsley got the gig. They'd all be a fairly safe gamble for improvement.

[elatedscum]

Not completely true - they have some good players but the team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon) - now several others are breaking into their first teams this season -

not really true at all...




Trafford - a loan season at league 1, now a prem player
Griifiths - first half of the season at league 1, second half playing championship
Rushworth - a loan season at league 1, now a championship loan


Aarons - previous season was in the champ but had played 70 PL games and is back there now
Johnson - had played 55 PL games and won west ham’s young player of the year two years in a row


Colwill - starter for Brighton last season, now a starter for Chelsea
Harwood-Bellis - a series of championship loans, promoted with Burnley before the 21s tournament
Branthwaite - now a premier league regular, was on loan at PSV that season
Cresswell - on loan in the champ.


Thomas - had played 17 PL games that season and 56 in total, got relegated and is now in champ


Skipp - 79 games for Spurs under his belt at the time of the tournament
Doyle - on loan with promoted Sheffield United last season, on loan at Wolves this season
Ramsey - played 35 of 38 PL games in the season before the tournament. Has played 93 PL games
Garner - 16 PL games in the season but he missed November - April due to injury and then played all the last 10 games of the season. Now a regular.


Gibbs white - played 37 of 38 prem games in the season before the tournament. Has played 96 PL games
Smith Rowe - has played over 100 games for Arsenal, full England international
Jones - has played over 100 games for Liverpool
Palmer - Chelsea paid £40+m for him straight after the tournament - played 41 games for city before the move


Gordon - 81 prem games at the time of tournament
Elliott - played 46 games for Liverpool in the season before the tournament, has 56 premier league appearances under his belt but would be more if the horror injury hadn’t happened
Gomes - a regular for one of the better ligue 1 teams
Madueke - first half of the season with PSV before Chelsea bought him for €33m. Played a bit for Chelsea in the rest of the season


Archer - scored 11 in 20 last season for Boro in the championship. Now a first choice PL player.

[elatedscum]

if you were picking a combined team, we could realistically have starters in goal (bit of a toss up between Trafford, Bazunu and Kelleher), at right back (toss up between Doherty, Coleman, Aarons and Johnson), centre back (it's probably Colwill and Branthwait but Collins is in the mix for the second slot) and Evan Ferguson starts up top. So they have 7 definite, we have 1 and then 3 50/50s

[EalingGreen]

With all due respect to Brentford - they are a small club (they have spent most of their existence in the lower reaches of the Football League) - the fact that they have managed to get into the PL and stay there is quite remarkable.And all while keeping strictly within FFP, when their final Championship (pre-Covid) annual turnover was £15m (i.e. continuously sold their best players for a profit and replaced them with better).

Not for them blowing FFP out of the water to "buy" promotion like, eg Villa.

And since being in the PL, they've made a profit, meaning they've had nothing to fear from Profit and Sustainability Rules.

What was that?

"Everton"?

[LurcherLover]

Not completely true - they have some good players but the team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon) - now several others are breaking into their first teams this season - but it is a major stretch to suggest that they would play us off the park (unless Kenny was still head coach). But it also should be remembered that there were a lot of other very good teams in that competition - the Spanish team that they beat in the final did have several players who were regulars in La Liga (and in the PL in Portugal) in 22-23.No, it is true. Plus, I'm talking about the current squad and how they've played. We made NZ look like a top team and there's no guarantee that a new coach will come in miraculously change things. Kenny was out of his depth, but the players have been lucky he was so bad, as he has masked how utterly terrible they have performed. I don't care how bad you're set up, it's no excuse for how bad they've been in the majority of games. The majority of that team have gotten off lightly and some people will tell you that we have some sort of golden generation of young players that just need the correct manager to unlock their potential. We're very poor.

[seanfhear]

Any manager does well to win a Trophy with England at any level because, they so often manage to blow good situations to win tournaments, despite all of the advantages that England have !

[Stuttgart88]

not really true at all...




Trafford - a loan season at league 1, now a prem player
Griifiths - first half of the season at league 1, second half playing championship
Rushworth - a loan season at league 1, now a championship loan


Aarons - previous season was in the champ but had played 70 PL games and is back there now
Johnson - had played 55 PL games and won west ham’s young player of the year two years in a row


Colwill - starter for Brighton last season, now a starter for Chelsea
Harwood-Bellis - a series of championship loans, promoted with Burnley before the 21s tournament
Branthwaite - now a premier league regular, was on loan at PSV that season
Cresswell - on loan in the champ.


Thomas - had played 17 PL games that season and 56 in total, got relegated and is now in champ


Skipp - 79 games for Spurs under his belt at the time of the tournament
Doyle - on loan with promoted Sheffield United last season, on loan at Wolves this season
Ramsey - played 35 of 38 PL games in the season before the tournament. Has played 93 PL games
Garner - 16 PL games in the season but he missed November - April due to injury and then played all the last 10 games of the season. Now a regular.


Gibbs white - played 37 of 38 prem games in the season before the tournament. Has played 96 PL games
Smith Rowe - has played over 100 games for Arsenal, full England international
Jones - has played over 100 games for Liverpool
Palmer - Chelsea paid £40+m for him straight after the tournament - played 41 games for city before the move


Gordon - 81 prem games at the time of tournament
Elliott - played 46 games for Liverpool in the season before the tournament, has 56 premier league appearances under his belt but would be more if the horror injury hadn’t happened
Gomes - a regular for one of the better ligue 1 teams
Madueke - first half of the season with PSV before Chelsea bought him for €33m. Played a bit for Chelsea in the rest of the season


Archer - scored 11 in 20 last season for Boro in the championship. Now a first choice PL player.Imagine we had that as our senior team...

[ifk101]

No idea what that means.
It means you could write the Wikipedia page for Brentford FC. Your knowledge knows no bounds. Your admiration is clear. Brentford FC – completed it mate.

(If Thomas Frank is looking for a new challenge, or Brentford want to take over the running of the FAI, send them our way. I’m sold.)


Stats are grand, but he beat Spain and Portugal and actually won the tournament. Our passing and possession stats were way up under Kenny but he lost alot.
He did indeed win the tournament – an achievement. But can he make our (less talented) collection of individuals a better whole is the question? And it not about passing the ball around, or playing a particular style. Rather, can he maximise the resources available to him to help us punch above our weight?

England are individually superior in most games they play so greater emphasis should be given to the games where England were matched to determine Carsley’s suitability to do the job for us. Because we, more often than not, are likely to be matched/ or bettered in the individual quality level of opposition we will face – and hence the reference to England’s performances against Spain and Portugal in the U21 Championship. England were out maneuvered in those games with Carsley admitting as such in the aftermath of the Portugal game


"We have to give Portugal a lot of credit," Carsley said. "They pressed us really well, they were aggressive with their positioning. "We couldn't control it. It wasn't as if we were on battery save mode, Portugal were good.

Moving on, it's best to learn from Kenny's time and not land in a situation again where an opposing manager can ridicule our tactical ineptitude. I’m not saying that will happen with Carsley, again prefer him to other named candidates, just expressing reason for doubt.

[EalingGreen]

It means you could write the Wikipedia page for Brentford FC. Your knowledge knows no bounds. Your admiration is clear. Brentford FC – completed it mate.
Although I am a lifelong Spurs fan, I've lived virtually within walking distance of Brentford for decades (check out a map of London for Ealing/Brentford), have watched them for years with my Bees mates, including when they were in Lges One & Two, and currently have a Season Ticket* at the GTech.

Which is why I don't need Wikipedia to comment on Brentford on matters like this - see eg my previous posts on Nathan Collins or Scott Hogan. In the same way as I feel qualified to comment on Spurs-related matters eg Troy Parrott or Matt Doherty threads.

And which is also why I would prefer if you confined your comments to the matters under discussion, rather than trying to personalise them with sarcastic digs at me, esp when you clearly know bugger-all about me.

On which point, have you anything to say about Carsley's coaching style and qualifications? You know, where you asked about this in post #523, and I replied in #525.


* - Check out the fixture lists - for policing reasons, Brentford and Spurs generally play their home games week-about, so no fixture clash.

[ifk101]

And which is also why I would prefer if you confined your comments to the matters under discussion, rather than trying to personalise them with sarcastic digs at me, esp when you clearly know bugger-all about me.

Oh dear. Your knowledge of Brentford is unquestioned (you could write the Wikipedia page – a compliment not a dig, whatever) but Brentford was a short scratch on Carsley post playing career eight years ago. That Brentford wanted Carsley eight years ago doesn’t say much today regardless of how well Brentford is run as a club. When asked to explain why Carsley is so well-respected you gave a short generic and sneering “you know management stuff” reply, and proceeded to roll out the “if he was good enough for Brentford” text, throwing out those links as a google search afterthought (none of which referred to his time with Brentford which is the basis to you having no doubts about his managerial abilities?). Given the sensitivities, I’ll leave it there – my posts are merely those of a fan with a vested interest in the team wanting the best candidate to get the role.

Btw Dijkhuizen has moved on to greater things post-Brentford. He’s currently managing our Troy.

[Jolly Red Giant]

not really true at all...

Trafford - a loan season at league 1, now a prem player
Griifiths - first half of the season at league 1, second half playing championship
Rushworth - a loan season at league 1, now a championship loan


Aarons - previous season was in the champ but had played 70 PL games and is back there now
Johnson - had played 55 PL games and won west ham’s young player of the year two years in a row


Colwill - starter for Brighton last season, now a starter for Chelsea
Harwood-Bellis - a series of championship loans, promoted with Burnley before the 21s tournament
Branthwaite - now a premier league regular, was on loan at PSV that season
Cresswell - on loan in the champ.


Thomas - had played 17 PL games that season and 56 in total, got relegated and is now in champ


Skipp - 79 games for Spurs under his belt at the time of the tournament
Doyle - on loan with promoted Sheffield United last season, on loan at Wolves this season
Ramsey - played 35 of 38 PL games in the season before the tournament. Has played 93 PL games
Garner - 16 PL games in the season but he missed November - April due to injury and then played all the last 10 games of the season. Now a regular.


Gibbs white - played 37 of 38 prem games in the season before the tournament. Has played 96 PL games
Smith Rowe - has played over 100 games for Arsenal, full England international
Jones - has played over 100 games for Liverpool
Palmer - Chelsea paid £40+m for him straight after the tournament - played 41 games for city before the move


Gordon - 81 prem games at the time of tournament
Elliott - played 46 games for Liverpool in the season before the tournament, has 56 premier league appearances under his belt but would be more if the horror injury hadn’t happened
Gomes - a regular for one of the better ligue 1 teams
Madueke - first half of the season with PSV before Chelsea bought him for €33m. Played a bit for Chelsea in the rest of the season


Archer - scored 11 in 20 last season for Boro in the championship. Now a first choice PL player.

Let's have a few corrections - note - you said - The England U21s is full of players who are regulars in the PL. The team that won the Euros would play our senior team off the park week in week out.

Trafford played in League 1 last season - he is currently conceding an average of more than 2 goals a game with Burnley.

Aarons has been repeatedly tipped over the past three years for a transfer to a PL club - yet no one has bought him until Bournemouth paid £7m for him in August - he is not a regular at Bournemouth

Johnson hasn't played for West Ham this season

Colwill was not a starter for Brighton last season - he started 13 games and was a sub in four others.

Harwood-Bellis is playing for Southampton in the Championship - he has never played a PL game

Thomas has never been a starter for Leicester in the PL

Skipp - never a regular starter for Spurs

Doyle - not a regular for Wolves

Ramsey was a regular for the past two seasons - is not this season (in part because of an early season injury)

Smith Rowe - not playing for Arsenal this season (again in part because of injury)

Jones - not a regular for Liverpool

Palmer - not a regular until the Chelsea move

Elliot - getting there - but not a starter for Liverpool

Gomes - The French L1 is nowhere near the standard of the PL

Madueke - not a regular starter

Archer - has played 8 games for Sheff Utd - he is not a first choice PL player and he plays for the worst team in the PL.

Furthermore - I argued that the starting team that won the U21 Euros for England had only one regular PL starter at the time ( I will admit to an error - there were two - Gordon and Gibbs-White).

The team - Trafford - Garner - Colwill - Harwood-Bellis - Aarons - Smith-Rowe - Gomes - Gibbs-White - Jones - Palmer - and Gordon.

Now - I would also argue that this team that won the Euros would not play the Irish team off the park - I think it would be a pretty even game with Ireland winning narrowly. Why - because Ireland have a lot more experience. Give it a year or two and you could have a valid argument - but Ireland are also likely to be a much better team in a year or two now that Kenny is gone.

[Jolly Red Giant]

if you were picking a combined team, we could realistically have starters in goal (bit of a toss up between Trafford, Bazunu and Kelleher), at right back (toss up between Doherty, Coleman, Aarons and Johnson), centre back (it's probably Colwill and Branthwait but Collins is in the mix for the second slot) and Evan Ferguson starts up top. So they have 7 definite, we have 1 and then 3 50/50s

Both Bazunu and Kelleher are better than Trafford

Coleman is the better RB any day of the week

Branthwaithe didn't play in the final - and I would start both Egan and Collins ahead of him anyway

Now - midfield is our weakest position - but Gomes wouldn't start ahead of Cullen or Knight for me.

Ferguson is going to be a much better player than Palmer.

The English U21s do have something that the Irish team lack - real pace from several parts of the pitch - and in todays game pace is very important.

I would have 5 Irish players in a combined team. This is not to say that the English U21s isn't full of good players with a lot of potential - but some of them will fall by the wayside as with any underage team. Furthermore - the important point is that there were several other very good squads in the tournament. The Spanish squad had a whole bunch of players who were regular starter in La Liga and in the PL in Portugal.

[Jolly Red Giant]

No, it is true. Plus, I'm talking about the current squad and how they've played. We made NZ look like a top team and there's no guarantee that a new coach will come in miraculously change things. Kenny was out of his depth, but the players have been lucky he was so bad, as he has masked how utterly terrible they have performed. I don't care how bad you're set up, it's no excuse for how bad they've been in the majority of games. The majority of that team have gotten off lightly and some people will tell you that we have some sort of golden generation of young players that just need the correct manager to unlock their potential. We're very poor.
You cannot talk about the current squad when you have a manager who doesn't know what he was doing and the NZ manager ran rings around him tactically. The players have not been good under Kenny - but it is very hard to be good when your coach doesn't know what he is doing and the opposition coach can completely undermine Kenny in a tactical sense.

The current Irish squad and underage teams have the best potential of any since the Kerr underage teams with Keane, Duff and Dunne etc - the big question is how many will develop into quality players and can we have a coach who maximises their talents and make the team play better than the sum of its parts - not the opposite way around.

[elatedscum]

Let's have a few corrections - note - you said - The England U21s is full of players who are regulars in the PL. The team that won the Euros would play our senior team off the park week in week out.

wasn't me that said it. i was just responding to you saying "he team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon)".

I don't think there's much point going into detail about all players again, rebutting some of the things you've said - but just to give a few examples:

Colwill got two injuries last season. He started all 5 games before the second injury, then was injured the next 6 games. After that, they decided not to play him twice in a week - so he wouldn't relapse. So he started against Palace and Brentford, rested for the midweek game against Bournemouth, then played against Spurs that weekend and so on. He was used in every game except for a midweek one, between two games (and the chelsea game where he was ineligible). So you're correct that he only started 13 but by the end of the season, he was first choice and to give some context based on someone we both mentioned, Evan Ferguson only started 10 premier league games last season.

Similarly, you're both saying that players who became regulars this season don't count, while also counting out Ramsey for breaking his metatarsal in July and re-injuring it in October. Ramsey was clearly a regular premier league, while playing the tournament, prior to his injury. I think overall, you've got a very very narrow view of what a premier league regular is. To play devils advocate (I don't really believe this - but this is how you're looking at the england u21s):

Bazunu - championship keeper
Kelleher - 30 games in his career
Travers - found out at prem level

Coleman - hasn't played this season (due to injury but he's closer to 40 than 30 and the pace has gone)
Doherty - didn't play regularly for Spurs, Atletico or Wolves - clearly not your definition of a regular
Ebosele - As you said re Ligue 1, Serie A is a long way from PL

Egan - last two seasons in the championship, played only 5 prem games this season (due to injury) for the worst team in the league
Omobamidele - hasn't made it onto the pitch for Forest since he signed
O'Shea - championship player when the tournament began
Duffy - championship player
Collins - premier league player but he's been sold year after year, lost his place in the Wolves team to Dawson and they sold him for about the same price they paid for him

Manning - championship player with no pace
Scales - the SPL is so so far from Premier League level, it's closer to LOI than it is to PL

Cullen - championship player when the tournament began, already lost his place in a poor Burnley team
Molumby - average championship player
Browne - average championship player
Knight - championship player
Smallbone - championship player who has never really recovered that injury
Hendrick - can't get into a bad championship team
McGrath - again - the SPL is so so far from Premier League level, it's closer to LOI than it is to PL

Ogbene - only a premier league player this season
Johnston - can't get into an SPL team
Robinson - average championship player
Sykes - average championship player
Connolly - couldn't cut it in Serie A, struggling in the championship

Ferguson - only started 10 premier league games last season
Obafemi - injury prone championship player with attitude problems
Parrott - couldn't cut it in the championship
Idah - 6 league goals in the 4 seasons before the the tournament

[Olé Olé]

Funny old post to see on an Irish football forum. Not everything has to be positive on here but going down through our entire squad with the clear intention of cutting them down is pretty mad and feels a little pointless.

[pineapple stu]

Not sure there's much to hugely disagree with there though (except that it was Serie B Connolly was turfed out of, not Serie A)

Bit of realism is no harm here every now and again. Plus there's the caveat "I don't really believe this - but this is how you're looking at the england u21s"

[Eirambler]

You can find something negative to say about every player in world football if you want to. Not sure it always adds up to a very strong argument though.

[jbyrne]

two decent friendlies for the manager to start off with anyway...
https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2023/1220/1423003-ireland-to-host-belgium-and-switzerland-in-march/

[Eirambler]

Looks like we've moved away from the "find the opposition even Stephen Kenny can't lose to" approach to friendlies of previous years, expectations must be higher for the new man.

Will be tough going seeing as we apparently have the worst squad in the history of world football according to one or two on here!