2022 Season, Arrivals and Departures

[D24Saint]

Why are Pat's going to the High Court?

Would the Labour Court not be a more appropriate channel?

Not sure to tbh. Is the labour court for disputes with current employees etc ? This could be a personal lawsuit and not a labour dispute.

[Yossarian]

The way Pats fans are going on you’d assume they’ve all been sent a copy of O’Donnell’s contract to look through. I personally don’t think O’Donnell would have left Pats if he thought he wasn’t legally able to. This seems to me like Kelleher is serving court notice with the intention of forcing a settlement as he has the wealth to be able to risk a loss in court.

[sbgawa]

Labour Court I for dispute resolution. Kelleher as I expected is playing for keeps going to the high court, may also be looking for damages....if SOD hasn't acted 100% this will get expensive very quickly. Given pats are launching the action I would be worried for SOD. Not nice for an ordinary Joe to be in court with a multi millionaire

[D24Saint]

The way Pats fans are going on you’d assume they’ve all been sent a copy of O’Donnell’s contract to look through. I personally don’t think O’Donnell would have left Pats if he thought he wasn’t legally able to. This seems to me like Kelleher is serving court notice with the intention of forcing a settlement as he has the wealth to be able to risk a loss in court.

I not privy to any aspects of the contract. All I know is how Mr K does his business. I wouldn’t want to mess around with the man. He has fought more court cases in recent years that has had hot dinners. He took on Nama, the US justice department and various creditors. I’d be fairly sure that he would only go this far on sound legal advice. The important aspect of all is that the Pats legal team have the contract in their possession where Dundalk only have a the word of the man they appointed.

[pineapple stu]

Labour Court I for dispute resolution.
Is this not a dispute though? Or is it (as D24 suggests) that the dispute has gone beyond employee v employer status?

Probably the case will get settled before it goes to hearing (because of the costs of going to the hearing) and maybe that's Kelleher's goal. But yeah, it can be an expensive game, and it's one of chicken now between Pat's and SOD.

[Longfordian]

Not sure to tbh. Is the labour court for disputes with current employees etc ? This could be a personal lawsuit and not a labour dispute.

Yeah the High Court would be the right venue for a contractual dispute like this. The Labour Court would be for pay disputes, unfair dismissal claims etc.

[Calcio Jack]

I not privy to any aspects of the contract. All I know is how Mr K does his business. I wouldn’t want to mess around with the man. He has fought more court cases in recent years that has had hot dinners. He took on Nama, the US justice department and various creditors. I’d be fairly sure that he would only go this far on sound legal advice. The important aspect of all is that the Pats legal team have the contract in their possession where Dundalk only have a the word of the man they appointed.

This could get very very costly for SOD- if it goes all the to a court hearing and he loses ; he’ll most likely be hit for costs for both sides plus whatever compensation the judge awards to Pats- won’t be much lose change out of a €100k if it goes that far- and even if it settles in advance he may still get caught for a relatively huge amount - if I was him I’d be telling Mr K that if I lose then you can sue me and see how you get on…, Mr K would be very aware used to that type of tactic from both sides !!

Ps…. For a little guy going up against the likes of Mr K this will be extremely stressful ( even if he has advice that he’s in the right - once his legal team give him an estimate of the costs he’ll be sweating and I suspect that’s why K has gone for this option)

[D24Saint]

This could get very very costly for SOD- if it goes all the to a court hearing and he loses ; he’ll most likely be hit for costs for both sides plus whatever compensation the judge awards to Pats- won’t be much lose change out of a €100k if it goes that far- and even if it settles in advance he may still get caught for a relatively huge amount - if I was him I’d be telling Mr K that if I lose then you can sue me and see how you get on…, Mr K would be very aware used to that type of tactic from both sides !!

Id imagine this is only for starters & id say if he wins it will be Dundalk themselves next. It’s an unsavoury episode that could have been avoided.

[2 Year Contract]

Lee Desmond confirmed to be leaving Pats for the USA. Expected given he was originally due to go over a year previous which was stopped due to covid but a big loss. Top class defender and a great service to the club over the last 7 seasons

[patsdad]

If you want a good laugh have a look at the bluster here: http://www.orielweb.com/dundalktalk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10533&start=735

A contract dispute doesn’t get into the High Court unless the claim is for over €75,000. Add the exorbitant legal costs that go with a High Court case and you’re looking at a potential exposure of upwards of €200,000 for O’Donnell and/or Dundalk if the Court upholds the claim.

The facts in the public domain (and not denied by O’Donnell even though some Dundalk fans seem to believe that he was out of contract) are that he had two years to run on a contract that had been validly extended and was advised by someone that he only had to give a week’s notice to get out of it. If that was really true, why do you think compensation is paid all the time to businesses in Ireland and elsewhere when people under contract are headhunted by other companies. Unless the Court decides to set a new legal precedent (which will mean there’d be no point in having fixed-term contracts any more in Ireland as they couldn’t be enforced) St Pats are going to win this and the personal implications for O’Donnell will be very severe. So I hope the people now advising him are a bit more knowledgeable than the bluster brigade on Orielweb.

[Calcio Jack]

If you want a good laugh have a look at the bluster here: http://www.orielweb.com/dundalktalk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10533&start=735

A contract dispute doesn’t get into the High Court unless the claim is for over €75,000. Add the exhorbitant legal costs that go with a High Court case and you’re looking at a potential exposure of upwards of €200,000 for O’Donnell and/or Dundalk if the Court upholds the claim.

The facts in the public domain (and not denied by O’Donnell even though some Dundalk fans seem to believe that he was out of contract) are that he had two years to run on a contract that had been validly extended and was advised by someone that he only had to give a week’s notice to get out of it. If that was really true, why do you think compensation is paid all the time to businesses in Ireland and elsewhere when people under contract are headhunted by other companies. Unless the Court decides to set a new legal precedent (which will mean there’d be no point in having fixed-term contracts any more in Ireland as they couldn’t be enforced) St Pats are going to win this and the personal implications for O’Donnell will be very severe. So I hope the people now advising him are a bit more knowledgeable than the bluster brigade on Orielweb.

If it’s true that he was contracted for 2 years but the contract stipulated that he could give 1 weeks notice and leave - then SOD is in the clear.

However that would be the most one sided contract in favour of the employee that I’ve ever heard of.

I hope SOD got professional advice from a solicitor rather than some barfly expert - it never ceases to amaze me as to how many and often people take legal advice from barfly experts and live to regret it -

Ps - just read the comments on the Dundalk forum - seems they have no shortage of barfly experts- anyway let’s hope this goes to court so we get to hear the facts ( somehow I doubt it will go that far) - I’m betting on a joint statement from both parties that contains a grovelling apology from SOD

[D24Saint]

If it’s true that he was contracted for 2 years but the contract stipulated that he could give 1 weeks notice and leave - then SOD is in the clear.

However that would be the most one sided contract in favour of the employee that I’ve ever heard of.

I hope SOD got professional advice from a solicitor rather than some barfly expert - it never ceases to amaze me as to how many and often people take legal advice from barfly experts and live to regret it -

Ps - just read the comments on the Dundalk forum - seems they have no shortage of barfly experts- anyway let’s hope this goes to court so we get to hear the facts ( somehow I doubt it will go that far) - I’m betting on a joint statement from both parties that contains a grovelling apology from SOD

Nah Mr K is a born again Christian if proved correct he will insist on a cross and a few nails as punishment.

[Louth4sam]

The facts in the public domain (and not denied by O’Donnell even though some Dundalk fans seem to believe that he was out of contract) are that he had two years to run on a contract that had been validly extended and was advised by someone that he only had to give a week’s notice to get out of it.

Can you link me to where this is in the public domain please as I am unable to find anything definitive apart from a few butt hurt Pats fans.

Also are you saying that Pats contracts are like a free subscription to Netflix, if you forget to cancel in time it automatically renews?

[Calcio Jack]

Nah Mr K is a born again Christian if proved correct he will insist on a cross and a few nails as punishment.

Sounds more like a born again Isis follower

[patsdad]

Can you link me to where this is in the public domain please as I am unable to find anything definitive apart from a few butt hurt Pats fans.

Also are you saying that Pats contracts are like a free subscription to Netflix, if you forget to cancel in time it automatically renews?

But at his unveiling yesterday, O’Donnell said: “I handed in my notice and with the agreement I signed originally with St Patrick’s Athletic, that’s my legal right.
“I’m not going to go into the ins and outs of contracts but that’s my legal right and I wouldn't have done it otherwise.

Stephen O'Donnell insists Dundalk will be a 'very big club again' - Irish Mirror Online (https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/stephen-odonnell-insists-dundalk-very-25686836)

As I said, it's not disputed by O'Donnell that he was under contract.

What this is about is whether or not he could walk on a week's notice.

[D24Saint]

Can you link me to where this is in the public domain please as I am unable to find anything definitive apart from a few butt hurt Pats fans.

Also are you saying that Pats contracts are like a free subscription to Netflix, if you forget to cancel in time it automatically renews?

Sounds like pure guff from Dundalk fans who previously I’ve had no quarrels with. Let the wigs decide and us mere mortals to argue over referees etc

[Louth4sam]

Thanks for that but where did he say he actually signed a two year contract like you are claiming? He said he handed in his notice in line with the requirement in his original contract?

[D24Saint]

Sounds more like a born again Isis follower

It was only a tongue n cheek observation.

[D24Saint]

Thanks for that but where did he say he actually signed a two year contract like you are claiming? He said he handed in his notice in line with the requirement in his original contract?

Have Dundalk folk just gone down the road where that just because they do something it right.

[patsdad]

It's well known that he was under contract to end 2023. I'm not trawling to find a link for you but he hasn't denied it. And I'm not going through all the arguments again as to why a fixed-term contract would never allow for walking on a week's notice - you'll find them earlier on this thread not just from me but from supporters of other clubs too.

Bottom line - believe what you want to believe, all that matters now is what emerges in Court.

[Louth4sam]

Have Dundalk folk just gone down the road where that just because they do something it right.

Sorry wasn't responding to you, I clicked reply instead of quote.

On your question, depends what you mean by right. Hiring someone that is out of contract isn't wrong. If O'Donnell was in fact in contract, we'll end up paying compo. Kelleher's nose being put out of joint and the emotion of the whole thing has lead to this.

[Louth4sam]

It's well known that he was under contract to end 2023. I'm not trawling to find a link for you but he hasn't denied it. And I'm not going through all the arguments again as to why a fixed-term contract would never allow for walking on a week's notice - you'll find them earlier on this thread not just from me but from supporters of other clubs too.

Bottom line - believe what you want to believe, all that matters now is what emerges in Court.

It is well known that hurt football fans make things up and post it on internet forums and social media. I tell you what if you can provide any evidence that O'Donnell signed a contract until 2023 over the next couple of days I'll donate €20 to a charity of your choice. Trawl away

[patsdad]

It is well known that hurt football fans make things up and post it on internet forums and social media. I tell you what if you can provide any evidence that O'Donnell signed a contract until 2023 over the next couple of days I'll donate €20 to a charity of your choice. Trawl away

That's in the hands of the lawyers now. Let's see who's proven right.

[2 Year Contract]

Paddy Barrett signs a long term contract with pats. Not the best day in the word for the O'Donnell household

[D24Saint]

Paddy Barrett signs a long term contract with pats. Not the best day in the word for the O'Donnell household

Happy with that , it’s a pity that Lee Desmond has moved on but Paddy is a good lad.

[TonyD]

It is well known that hurt football fans make things up and post it on internet forums and social media. I tell you what if you can provide any evidence that O'Donnell signed a contract until 2023 over the next couple of days I'll donate €20 to a charity of your choice. Trawl away

You seem very very sure of your facts there. Do you really think Pats are serving legal papers because Garrett Kelleher is “butthurt” ? That would be incredibly silly of him if he hasn’t a legal basis to bring a case, wouldn’t you think ? He is effectively putting his money where his mouth is.

[patsdad]

Anyone who has been following the O’Donnell saga will understand the significance of Paddy Barrett weighing up the Dundalk “project” and deciding the future is brighter in Inchicore.


“I loved my first year at Pat’s, it’s the club where I’ve been at my happiest from a personal point of view, both on the field and off the field.


I really enjoyed last year, and it’s not something I wanted to move away from.


It’s really exciting times ahead with the new Manager Tim Clancy who I’ve had good conversations with, I know Jon Daly from my time in Scotland along with Alan Mathews and the staff already at the club, we can’t wait to hit the ground running next week.”

[oriel]

Maybe he got a much better deal than last year, and Pats needed to act quickly with Desmond leaving. A lot of players will do that using leverage of another interested club to get a better deal, and absolutely nothing wrong with that in my book.

LOI is not the PL, any player that gets a good deal, good luck to him.

[D24Saint]

It is well known that hurt football fans make things up and post it on internet forums and social media. I tell you what if you can provide any evidence that O'Donnell signed a contract until 2023 over the next couple of days I'll donate €20 to a charity of your choice. Trawl away

The evidence is in a well educated multi millionaire going to the high court. I could be wrong but if he is I’ll eat my hat. I’m reading between the lines. It’s safe to assume the same legal people wrote the contract and filed the lawsuit. It’s not rocket science that one. Their reputation is on the line in their own trade.

[oriel]

In respect of the contract, surely these were the options?

1/ Dundalk get confirm that one was signed for 2 years after cup final and agree compensation (correct thing to do).

2/ Verbal agreement on contract extension only - no case.

3/ Pats annoyed he advised he was going to leave his position 48 hours after cup final win, and 1 week later formal notice to leave, can obviously see the annoyance, but is that it?

[patsdad]

1 is what should have happened. Dundalk and SOD tried a “workaround” which is why it’s going to court.

[D24Saint]

In respect of the contract, surely these were the options?

1/ Dundalk get confirm that one was signed for 2 years after cup final and agree compensation (correct thing to do).

2/ Verbal agreement on contract extension only - no case.

3/ Pats annoyed he advised he was going to leave his position 48 hours after cup final win, and 1 week later formal notice to leave, can obviously see the annoyance, but is that it?

Option one is how business should have been done IMO. Nobody in Pats would have been happy with it but it would have been what it was. It’s the subterfuge that left a sour taste.

[oriel]

I've made it clear from the outset, if it was proven that he was under (a signed) contract, then Dundalk need to pay Pats compensation, simple and end of.

Verbal contract extension, very different, is this what its down to, two options ?

Will certainly be interesting in January what happens.

[Martinho II]

To slightly change the subject we have made 2 further signings from Bray today Dylan Barnett and Darren Craven. Callum Warfield and Ben Lynch have resigned contracts for us.

[nigel-harps1954]

Brayford Midlanders vs Cabrayteely should be fun next season.

[Longfordian]

Yes it seems we were secretly party to the Bray takeover.

[LOI101]

I doubt this will ever see the inside of a courtroom so we might be waiting a while to find out the facts of the matter which is a pity. It wouldn’t be up there with the OJ trial but would definitely have a lot of us here interested.

I don’t see what Pats have to gain by taking a court case against SOD. I’d be inclined to agree with the Pats fans here that Mr. K, as they call him, wouldn’t take a case he didn’t have legal advice that he could win. Then again, the quote from SOD he references advice he got. Solicitors represent their clients etc

I also believe that the Pats owner would do this for ****s and giggles. He won’t be losing sleep over legal costs even if he did lose. The opposite applies to SOD.

Its interesting that the article doesn’t make any reference to papers being served on Dundalk. Tie that back to the point about Kelleher’s legal advice. Maybe he’s been told he doesn’t have a case against Dundalk or maybe that could be forthcoming in the future.

If if did go to court, Pats/Kelleher in order to receive compensation would have to demonstrate some sort of loss that they wish to be compensated for. I assume they gave Drogheda a few quid for Clancy for it to be so amicable. Hardly worth going to court for. Get the popcorn out for when Pats are arguing they are suffering a loss due to Clancy not being as good as O’Donnell. Very unlikely but would be fun.

Another bit I find interesting about this, depending on how it turns out obviously, is would there be any impact on SOD’s agent down the line.

Is there any LMA like organization out there? I don’t think there is coz the PFAI did manager awards. Are managers members of the PFAI then? Would Gilhooly be representing SOD?

Lastly I’ve seen people refer to fixed term contracts. Having worked on many fixed term contracts over the years, it is quite common for either party to the contract to be able to terminate them at short notice, usually one pay cycle be that weekly or monthly however the individual gets paid.

Anyway some entertainment for the off season, be interesting to see how it turns out.

[Calcio Jack]

It was only a tongue n cheek observation.

Of course it was …. As was my reply

[Louth4sam]

You seem very very sure of your facts there. Do you really think Pats are serving legal papers because Garrett Kelleher is “butthurt” ? That would be incredibly silly of him if he hasn’t a legal basis to bring a case, wouldn’t you think ? He is effectively putting his money where his mouth is.

I don't have any more facts about what happened than Pats fans have. There was claims that there was a two year contract signed and it was public knowledge. If it's public knowledge it shouldn't be difficult to point me in the direction of it.

Do you really believe there is no emotion in this and it is strictly business for Kelleher? Any compo or settlement he'd get would be chump change to him. I'm sure Kelleher and his team believe there is a legal basis to bring a case, this doesn't mean he'll win. How did his Nama case go?

[Louth4sam]

The evidence is in a well educated multi millionaire going to the high court. I could be wrong but if he is I’ll eat my hat. I’m reading between the lines. It’s safe to assume the same legal people wrote the contract and filed the lawsuit. It’s not rocket science that one. Their reputation is on the line in their own trade.

Evidence?? So let's not have court cases any more, if you're rich and educated it's case closed, judgment in favour of the wealthy scholar.

I hope that both O'Donnell and the legal advice he got is correct regarding termination and he is backed to fight this by the club. I can see it being settled out of court for an undisclosed sum though.

[Longfordian]

It seems to me looking on that nobody is suggesting a brand new two year deal was signed. Pats seem to believe that there was an option in the original deal for them to extend it for a further two years which they took up. SOD may believe that the original contract also allowed him to walk with a week's notice. Which I have to say seems unlikely.

Alternatively he may be arguing that there wasn't an option for Pats to extend unilaterally in which case if he was still working for them after the written contract had expired he may, theoretically, be able to argue that he was then on a pay period by pay period rolling agreement. If he was being paid weekly then that may be why he believes all he needed to do was give a week's notice. We'll have to let the hired lawyers argue that out before we can know for sure.

[D24Saint]

Sad to see Lee Desmond leave for the USA. He has been excellent in recent seasons. It’s good news to see Paddy Barrett return , the squad is building nicely now.

[Jd2793]

desmond was a cut above, huge loss.

[sadloserkid]

"St Patrick’s Athletic go legal route in case against departed manager Stephen O'Donnell" https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40772541.html

Here's another link. As an outsider with no legal background I think O'Donnell's language is interesting. When he's talking about his legal right to resign I wonder if he's talking about himself specifically as one specific football manager or is he saying that in the general sense he has the right in the same way that I can give notice to Amazon and stroll on about my business elsewhere. If the latter he's on shaky enough ground I reckon.

The bit about Pats potentially seeking phone records doesn't make it sound like they have a signed contract to drop onto the table either though.

[D24Saint]

https://www.sacrepublicfc.com/news_article/show/1199963

They play in the league down from MLS. I’m not sure if the American system has promotion & relegation. It’s a good move for him and should be an excellent adventure. I’d love to see him back some day.

[patsdad]

"St Patrick’s Athletic go legal route in case against departed manager Stephen O'Donnell" https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40772541.html

Here's another link. As an outsider with no legal background I think O'Donnell's language is interesting. When he's talking about his legal right to resign I wonder if he's talking about himself specifically as one specific football manager or is he saying that in the general sense he has the right in the same way that I can give notice to Amazon and stroll on about my business elsewhere. If the latter he's on shaky enough ground I reckon.

The bit about Pats potentially seeking phone records doesn't make it sound like they have a signed contract to drop onto the table either though.


I think it’s more likely that the phone records are to establish when the negotiation started with Dundalk.

[oriel]

https://www.sacrepublicfc.com/news_article/show/1199963

They play in the league down from MLS. I’m not sure if the American system has promotion & relegation. It’s a good move for him and should be an excellent adventure. I’d love to see him back some day.

Always thought that division is a perfect fit for a LOI player, decent salary, not a bad standard and get to travel, some clubs based in warmer parts of the states too, I wonder is this the same division that Barrett and Kilduff went from Dundalk?

That league and SPL are great options for LOI players in my view, we also need to get away from England being the first choice, PL obv too high, Championship will only take the very best too, some of the less big euro leagues can be good options too, but probably less links for our players to go to.

Note to self 'Well done for not commenting on the Pats - SOD saga' ..........................yet !

[D24Saint]

Always thought that division is a perfect fit for a LOI player, decent salary, not a bad standard and get to travel, some clubs based in warmer parts of the states too, I wonder is this the same division that Barrett and Kilduff went from Dundalk?

That league and SPL are great options for LOI players in my view, we also need to get away from England being the first choice, PL obv too high, Championship will only take the very best too, some of the less big euro leagues can be good options too, but probably less links for our players to go to.

Note to self 'Well done for not commenting on the Pats - SOD saga' ..........................yet !

Yeah it’s the same level of the US pyramid. I’d say the wages & perks are good with the added bonus of the climate. I’m not sure about quality of the standard in that division. I was a MLS game a few years ago and it was a decent standard without being top level.

[Jack B]

Tunde Owolabi just announced for Pats as well. Interesting one that, I actually missed the game where he scored a hat trick against us but anytime I saw him play I thought he looked a real nuisance, if a little rough around the edges in terms of end product.

[joey B]

That’s our squad pretty much ripped apart,Will Seymore announced his departure over the last couple of days aswell, long slog awaits…