Stephen Kenny

[backstothewall]

I also don't buy the excuse about the quality of the players. Whilst there are no world beaters (though Ferguson could become one) there are a number of decent Premiership quality players for selection together with some of the better Championship players. Outside the top 6 or 7 teams in Europe its become commonplace to see Championship players in the starting line ups. You would be expecting the next manager to get significantly better results with the same group of players, however due to the damage caused under Kenny's tenure it'll be a long time before we are back in the big time.

I agree with this completely. The Championship is a very strong division these days and we are lucky to have so many players there. IMHO it's the most competitive second tier in Europe and one of the top 10 divisions overall.

Scotland qualified with 2 games to spare with a squad that looks very similar to ours on paper. There's no reason in the world why we can't do that*.

*Whatever about Stephen Kenny, we were **** upon from a great height with the draw for this last campaign.

[pineapple stu]

Scotland qualified with 2 games to spare with a squad that looks very similar to ours on paper. There's no reason in the world why we can't do that*.
They have Robertson, Tierney, McTominay and McGinn; Ferguson is the only player we have in that range. That's a fair aul difference.

In other news, the backroom staff have left too (unsurprisingly). Andrews, O'Shea, Kiely et al.

[backstothewall]

They have more than us in midfield and at left back, but there's a lot of very well organised mediocrity in their squad.

If I was picking a joint Irish-Scottish XI I'd have 7 Irish and 4 Scots.

------------------- Bazunu --------------------
Coleman Collins Egan Robertson
--- Gilmour Cullen McTominney ---
McGinn -------------------------- Ogbene
------------------ Ferguson ------------------

[CraftyToePoke]

They have Robertson, Tierney, McTominay and McGinn; Ferguson is the only player we have in that range. That's a fair aul difference.

They have, and slightly under that they have McGregor who is a big player for a successful Celtic era and Gilmour who Brighton handed over a few quid for and plays regularly for them EPL and in Europe. Picture a five a side with the two keepers and their midfield four McTominay /McGinn / Gilmour / McGregor Vs whatever four of ours you want to pick, it'd be a cull, a turkey shoot. Granted they aren't like that throughout the side but midfield dictates, just as when we had Keane & Co in there, we were decent. I think banging the look at Scotland drum actually undermines the argument trying to be made, which does have its merits, we aren't where we should be.

[JR89]

They have more than us in midfield and at left back, but there's a lot of very well organised mediocrity in their squad.

If I was picking a joint Irish-Scottish XI I'd have 7 Irish and 4 Scots.

------------------- Bazunu --------------------
Coleman Collins Egan Robertson
--- Gilmour Cullen McTominney ---
McGinn -------------------------- Ogbene
------------------ Ferguson ------------------

Cullen wouldn't get into any midfield involving Scottish players.

[pineapple stu]

They have more than us in midfield and at left back, but there's a lot of very well organised mediocrity in their squad.

If I was picking a joint Irish-Scottish XI I'd have 7 Irish and 4 Scots.

------------------- Bazunu --------------------
Coleman Collins Egan Robertson
--- Gilmour Cullen McTominney ---
McGinn -------------------------- Ogbene
------------------ Ferguson ------------------

Kieran Tierney is playing for a La Liga side in the Champion League. There's no question but that he makes a combined team, even if playing slightly out of position.

The 4/5 players they have that are better than ours are the 4/5 decent players that every solid (but not great) international team needs, but that we don't have.

[JR89]

Only positions I'd be confident of us having on a combined team would be GK, RCB, CB, and ST. LCB, LWB and the four central midfielders I'd have from Scotland with it being a contest only at RWB between Coleman and Hickey.

[joey B]

Aaron Hickey is a regular Premier League right back aswell,we don’t have that either, even their back up Patterson plays more than anyone we have,Coleman’s best days are well behind him….

[ColourfulPeanut]

Yeah there's no way you don't have Hickey and Tierney in the combined team. We have no idea what shape Coleman will be in when he comes back and injuries aside, he's 35.

[elatedscum]

I'm taking Bazunu in goal,

Doherty at RB, 2 irish centre halves and Robertson at LB

3 scottish midfielder (McTominay, McGinn, Gilmour)

Ogbene on the wing, Ferguson in the centre. Might take Ben Doak as my last winger, even though he hasn't made his debut yet, it's either him or Mikey Johnston. You could probably fit Hickey in if you're going for 5 at the back but **** that, if I'm combining teams, I want a 4-3-3

[ifk101]

Better full backs and midfield than us but their strength is concentrated to one area of the field. That’s something we identified in the home game against them – we closed space and were aggressive in stopping that core strength from playing (think we started the game with a heavy tackle on McTominay to set that aggressive tone). But Scotland did well to finish the EC qualification ahead of Norway imo – they don’t have the creative quality of Ødegaard or a striker within a mile of Haaland’s class. The quality of those two players alone should have been enough to qualify Norway so credit to Scotland. They have an overall competence throughout their team that is above us.

[CSAD]

Better full backs and midfield than us but their strength is concentrated to one area of the field. That’s something we identified in the home game against them – we closed space and were aggressive in stopping that core strength from playing (think we started the game with a heavy tackle on McTominay to set that aggressive tone). But Scotland did well to finish the EC qualification ahead of Norway imo – they don’t have the creative quality of Ødegaard or a striker within a mile of Haaland’s class. The quality of those two players alone should have been enough to qualify Norway so credit to Scotland. They have an overall competence throughout their team that is above us.


That's because Norway are essentially Wales pre 2018. Every club out there though thinks every young Norwegian player is Erling Haaland so sign them only to move them on quickly after when they realised they've been duped ( I mean, Ostigaard playing for Napoli and Nyland playing for Sevilla has to be some sort of **** take surely!).

As for Scotland. The issue for them which is why I think they will struggle to do anymore than get past a last 16 place is while they have some really good players in their side the actual spine of their team is actually not that great (I would actually take the Irish spine over there's any day). Their GK, defence and striking options are mediocre at best but their midfield is pretty good so I do think they are going to need to ride their luck at times and hope McGinn (despite McTominey's goals in qualifying I do think McGinn is easily Scotland's most important player) and have a big tournament. The best I can envision for Scotland is a tournament similar to Ireland in 2016 which is a last 16 finish.

[JR89]

I'm taking Bazunu in goal,

Doherty at RB, 2 irish centre halves and Robertson at LB

3 scottish midfielder (McTominay, McGinn, Gilmour)

Ogbene on the wing, Ferguson in the centre. Might take Ben Doak as my last winger, even though he hasn't made his debut yet, it's either him or Mikey Johnston. You could probably fit Hickey in if you're going for 5 at the back but **** that, if I'm combining teams, I want a 4-3-3

You're picking Doehrty at RB when Scotland have two players regularly starting at RB in the PL. Wouldn't have Doherty as a RB in the Irish best XI nevermind a combined team.

[ifk101]

( I mean, Ostigaard playing for Napoli and Nyland playing for Sevilla has to be some sort of **** take surely!).

Not really if you accept Nyland was signed as a backup and acknowledge there is a quality gap between the top clubs in La Liga and the rest (and between first choice keeper and backup at most clubs). He is a safe bet signing for the role he has and maybe gets his game with Scotland? Sure, Østigård is not a quality player in his position as Ødegaard and Haaland are in theirs, but good enough to get his game for Scotland? Point is that on paper Norway can beef out their team to match Scotland and with the quality of Ødegaard and Haaland that should be decisive in determining results between the two. Didn’t work out that way though :-), so credit to Scotland.

[CSAD]

Not really if you accept Nyland was signed as a backup and acknowledge there is a quality gap between the top clubs in La Liga and the rest (and between first choice keeper and backup at most clubs). He is a safe bet signing for the role he has and maybe gets his game with Scotland? Sure, Østigård is not a quality player in his position as Ødegaard and Haaland are in theirs, but good enough to get his game for Scotland? Point is that on paper Norway can beef out their team to match Scotland and with the quality of Ødegaard and Haaland that should be decisive in determining results between the two. Didn’t work out that way though :-), so credit to Scotland.


He wasnt a regular starter in England since 2018/19 and couldnt even get ahead of Ireland's 3rd choice keeper when he was at Bournemouth and then he goes from that to playing for RB Leipzig & Sevilla...he can have these big name plus next to his name all he wants, its never going to suddenly make him a good GK and if anything shows just how desperate RB Leipzig and Sevilla really were at the time.

Possibly Ostigaard could get into the Scotland team but its probably a close call, Ostigard no matter what the club next to his name says is still a decent championship CB in my eyes who's found himself at Napoli by accident due to being young, cheap and having some Serie A experience from his time on loan with Genoa. Tbh the spine for Norway from back to front is quite imbalanced, the front part of the spine is probably as good as any spine in world football but the defensive side of it is not up to scratch at all.

[CSAD]

You're picking Doehrty at RB when Scotland have two players regularly starting at RB in the PL. Wouldn't have Doherty as a RB in the Irish best XI nevermind a combined team.

Ben Doak cant even get a Scotland call up so I very much doubt he makes an Irish/Scotland comined team.

[JR89]

Ben Doak cant even get a Scotland call up so I very much doubt he makes an Irish/Scotland comined team.

And Johnston is only playing for us cause he couldn't get a Scotland call up.

[Jd2793]

doherty isnt related to a defender. madness to have him in any combined xi. he is brutal.

[CSAD]

And Johnston is only playing for us cause he couldn't get a Scotland call up.

Did he tell you that? If he cant back himself to get ahead of Brown, Shankland, Dyke etc maybe he is a player even we are questioning the selection of.

Think you are missing the point though, if he cant make the Scotland squad then I doubt he's making a combined Irish/Scottish team.

[liamoo11]

You're picking Doehrty at RB when Scotland have two players regularly starting at RB in the PL. Wouldn't have Doherty as a RB in the Irish best XI nevermind a combined team.

Agree on this his conditioning is embarrassing during the week losing the ball in forward areas and showing zero desire to get back.

[JR89]

Did he tell you that? If he cant back himself to get ahead of Brown, Shankland, Dyke etc maybe he is a player even we are questioning the selection of.

Think you are missing the point though, if he cant make the Scotland squad then I doubt he's making a combined Irish/Scottish team.

Not missing this point and it's what I was hinting at. Couldn't get a Scotland call up so how would he make a combined team.

[elatedscum]

Just being honest. I don't rate Scotland's wingers - last time I saw them play, they had two centre-midfielders playing on the wings (McLean and Armstrong). I think that's the reason they've played 5 at the back a lot, to fit Robertson and Tierney into the same team (on the off chance that Tierney is fit) and because they have absolutely no wingers.

So I'm left with Ben Doak, who's turned 18 a week ago and is a little like Evan Ferguson was around the same age, in that I think he's about to go from being an u21 to an obvious first choice selection seemingly overnight. I'd happily make a bet that he will feature prominently for Scotland at the Euros. You could find when Mo Salah goes to Afcon, he'll feature a lot for Liverpool as he's basically his replacement - and that game time will open the door for a March call-up, he got a badly timed injury (I think in October for Scotland u21), which meant he hasn't played as much as he might have. So you've got him, and if you don't feel he's ready, then I'm left with Mikey Johnston. I think the only person to pick a team with 3 up top had McGinn playing on the wing - and he's playing centre-midfield for me, he's not a winger at all.

As for Doherty, I think he was widely considered our best player about 18 months ago and he's gone from that to being a whipping boy for some fans. He's in a tough situation at Wolves. Nelson Semedo who is being chosen ahead of it is a very acomplished footballer. Barcelona paid a lot for him and Wolves did too. He's played over 100 games for Barcelona and over 25 for Portugal. He's a far better player than Hickey's competition (Mads Roerslev) And Doc's game-time hasn't been great, the performances are suffering a little. Saying that, I thought Doherty looked pretty good against Spurs two weeks ago. And as for Patterson, I've seen a lot of him at Everton and I don't rate him, he might become a good player one day but right now, he's closer to Festy's level (without the electrifying physical attributes) than Andy Robertson's level - and the only reason he's playing is because Everton are skint and Coleman has been injured forever. I saw good bit of Aaron Hickey at Bologna and I wasn't sold on him. Best thing I can say about his Brentford career is I haven't really noticed him much, being anonymous I suppose means there haven't been too many mistakes - but for example, Rico Henry on the other side, I'd reckon is a far better footballer. Coleman might still be the best option but it's a huge unknown after 6 months out...

[Eirambler]

Is reported to be in advanced talks with St Pat's about a return to domestic football. Presumably after six months out of work he has had to give up on the notion of anyone overseas taking him on. Thought he might hold out to see if anything comes up over the summer, but if he does go for Pats that seems to suggest that his agent has nothing overseas based lined up for him at all.

It will be interesting to see, if he takes it, whether the glaring weaknesses the likes of Poyet and others exposed at international level can be used against him by managers within Ireland. Or whether the standard of manager just isn't to be found here to do that.

[pineapple stu]

Appointed Pat's manager. Best of luck to him - I think he could do quite well there. But it is telling that he's ended up at the level he left in the first place.

[Eirambler]

His taking that job is pretty much a concession that any hopes he might have had of ever progressing to manage again at a higher level overseas are over. Could maybe see him managing the Ireland under 21s again some day, but it looks like he'll be limited to that and the domestic league from here on. Or maybe a back office job in the FAI in time. Too much damage inflicted on his own reputation now, unfortunately for him.

Will be fascinating to see how this goes though. Surely the likes of Duff will have too much nous for him, it will be telling in terms of their own abilities if they don't.

[zero]

Everything he has said since joining pats underlines why he belongs at this level and no higher. Will anyone learn from this costly exercise of giving him the top job?

Probably not. Best wishes to SK nevertheless.

[nigel-harps1954]

Everything he has said since joining pats underlines why he belongs at this level and no higher. Will anyone learn from this costly exercise of giving him the top job?

Probably not. Best wishes to SK nevertheless.

What examples?

[zero]

What examples?

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/i-dont-think-well-be-meeting-for-cups-of-tea-new-st-pats-boss-stephen-kenny-rules-out-reconciliation-with-brian-kerr/a660122151.html

this sort of carry on. personally i find it extremely small time and parochical but i get that people like to take sides on things like this and back their man etc. each to their own.

[nigel-harps1954]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/i-dont-think-well-be-meeting-for-cups-of-tea-new-st-pats-boss-stephen-kenny-rules-out-reconciliation-with-brian-kerr/a660122151.html

this sort of carry on. personally i find it extremely small time and parochical but i get that people like to take sides on things like this and back their man etc. each to their own.

I'm not entirely sure what's wrong with that. Kerr continuously lambasted the man in public. Why does saying this suggest he "belongs at this level"?

Are there any other examples of things he's said specifically to make him belong at any level?

[John83]

Do you mean he's too thin-skinned for a high pressure job, zero? I think that's a bit harsh.

I watched the interview he gave on rte.ie (https://www.rte.ie/embed/?id=AltWuylnwJjq), and while he continues to interview like a dog riding a bicycle - he's just not built for it - I'm not sure it really says much about his managerial skills. Though you'd hope he speaks more convincingly off camera.

[JR89]

Only thing I'd nitpick about his interview is telling people that you're back in the LOI because people abroad weren't offering you jobs. I know he mentioned family circumstances but leave it at that and don't add the second part about no job opportunities.

Like I'm sure fans can do the maths and I'd say majority expected him to return to the LOI anyway but don't actually say it out loud for everyone. Though as we've seen he's like a dyslexic reading the paper when doing media work so not surprised.

[SkStu]

Do you mean he's too thin-skinned for a high pressure job, zero? I think that's a bit harsh.

I watched the interview he gave on rte.ie (https://www.rte.ie/embed/?id=AltWuylnwJjq), and while he continues to interview like a dog riding a bicycle - he's just not built for it - I'm not sure it really says much about his managerial skills. Though you'd hope he speaks more convincingly off camera.

thats class!

[zero]

not thin skinned. small time is how I'd describe it, petty squabbles. to me it shows a lack of class.

he was very dismissive of other teams as dundalk manager when they didn't play football "the right way" as he saw it. I'd have thought maybe a bit more humility could be shown after his experiences as national team manager but again, i get that he will always have his backers and good luck to him.

[seanfhear]

not thin skinned. small time is how I'd describe it, petty squabbles. to me it shows a lack of class.

he was very dismissive of other teams as dundalk manager when they didn't play football "the right way" as he saw it. I'd have thought maybe a bit more humility could be shown after his experiences as national team manager but again, i get that he will always have his backers and good luck to him.
Stephen Kenny's ideas about his ability and his actual ability may not concur in real life ! !

[Eirambler]

The main thing I took from the interview he did with Dan McDonnell post departure from the Ireland job was the complete lack of critical reflection of his time in charge. He turned up with a heap of notes and spent the interview saying the exact same stuff he was coming out with while he was manager - talking about style of play, crowds in the stadium and listing "high points" that included games that were lost.

I know he probably thought he was still selling himself in terms of job opportunities he was hoping would come up overseas, but I honestly thought he'd have enhanced his chances by being more reflective about what he got wrong and would change if he got another chance. But there was nothing like that really, it was just more of the same guff and maybe a pointer to why he was as unsuccessful as he was in the job.

[TonyD]

Do you mean he's too thin-skinned for a high pressure job, zero? I think that's a bit harsh.

I watched the interview he gave on rte.ie (https://www.rte.ie/embed/?id=AltWuylnwJjq), and while he continues to interview like a dog riding a bicycle - he's just not built for it - I'm not sure it really says much about his managerial skills. Though you'd hope he speaks more convincingly off camera.

Don’t all managers get defensive when their back is against the wall though ? Remember Martin O’Neill when the wheels started to come off for him ?

Obviously as a Pats fan I’ll be wishing SK every success. I couldn’t really give a monkeys if people think he is rubbish at interviews. His job is to get results. As long as he does that with Pats nothing else matters. If he doesn’t get results, then he will go the way of any other manager. I’m happy to have him, although I do have a concern about the amount of baggage he has after the Ireland job. We don’t need that at Pats.

[Eirambler]

Carrying his international form back into club football it seems. Getting smashed by a side who have just been knocked out of Europe by a team from Gibraltar who are in pre-season is very Stephen Kenny somehow. Will be interesting to see how much rope Pats give him - when things go wrong for Kenny's teams (as they quite often do), they tend to go very badly wrong.

[Acornvilla]

Suppose we can balance out the bad vibes here with the news Pat's had a good 3-1 win in Europe last night. First step on the path to redemption :D

[joey B]

Another good night for Kenny in Europe,had a helping hand over the 2 legs but any wins away from home shouldnt be sniffed at in Europe...