Stephen Kenny

[Diggs246]

Anyone else going to this on Sunday? .looks good ... kenny will be there
1565676544462405632

[tetsujin1979]

Seriously, what is Kerr's problem with Kenny?
1573424107185659904

[Eirambler]

I don't really see the problem with those comments to be honest. Kenny hasn't got us anywhere near to qualifying for anything yet and until he starts to produce consistent results it's hard to argue with what is some fairly mild criticism there by Kerr.

[DCWA]

Kenny too good for Ireland this country full of ballbags don?t deserve the king we have

[Bielsa´s irish]

Did you watch second half? Awful and coward performance

[weldoninhio]

The Kenny appointment has been an absolute failure.

[Trequartista20]

The Kenny appointment has been an absolute failure.

Well, four points gained over five Nations League matches doesn't make for particularly good reading. Especially when one of those games included a defeat to an Armenian side every other team in the group beat comfortably and who are barely among the top 100 nations in the world.

The bald facts are that in 27 matches over four years - including a miserable seven-game goalless run - Kenny has won only six - against Azerbaijan, Luxembourg, Andorra, Qatar, Lithuania and (in his only notable win) Scotland. And three of those came in friendlies.

This is desperately poor by any standards.

If we manage to win entertainingly and convincingly on Wednesday then I guess we'll be assessing Kenny's future in the context of the performances in the three matches that went before, and it can be perhaps reasonably argued that progress is being made and he should probably be allowed to continue.

However, an abject team performance and a draw or a defeat against Armenia will put a wholly different complexion on matters and I think calls for Kenny's departure may well prove irresistible.

[Bielsa´s irish]

yes it has been, also he gave away his expansive football, second half played so deep, made me think about portugal away , for me this is the end, I WANT another football manager for Ireland , I suported his tenure but yesterday was enough , SCOTLAND AINT BRAZIL

[Bielsa´s irish]

the for the sake of irish football I want IRELAND TO lose and get Marcelo Bielsa

[TonyD]

Did you watch second half? Awful and coward performance

No it wasn?t. It was a good performance overall. Couple of key moments cost us, but that can happen in games .with two evenly matched teams.

For all the naysayers out there, one simple question. Have we played well in the last three games or not ? I can understand the criticism after losing to Armenia or Luxembourg, yes we should be wining those games. But our performances have been good lately, and if we keep that up I think results will come. Last night really doesn?t warrant a fresh batch of vitriol.

[weldoninhio]

No it wasn?t. It was a good performance overall. Couple of key moments cost us, but that can happen in games .with two evenly matched teams.

For all the naysayers out there, one simple question. Have we played well in the last three games or not ? I can understand the criticism after losing to Armenia or Luxembourg, yes we should be wining those games. But our performances have been good lately, and if we keep that up I think results will come. Last night really doesn?t warrant a fresh batch of vitriol.

He?s a serial loser. I don?t care if we play like Man City, we constantly lose. You get zero points for pretty play. We finished our last campaign level on points with Luxembourg. We are currently one point ahead of Armenia. That is the level Kenny has us playing to, performances can?t mask that.

[geysir]

tets

Seriously, what is Kerr's problem with Kenny?
Well, it is Kerr's modus operandi re punditry, It's not just Kenny that Kerr is sarcastic about.
He carries some seriously heavy chips on both shoulders.
To his credit, sometimes he's spot on, e.g. re Delaney/FAI

[pineapple stu]

Was Kerr being sarcastic about Kenny?

I think he was being quite reasonable

[geysir]

He has a serious chips on his shoulders, obvious to all but the blind :)

[pineapple stu]

That doesn't really answer the question though.

What did Kerr say in that clip that's so objectionable (bearing in mind he's a pundit and being paid to give an opinion, so he's not just randomly mouthing off)

[tetsujin1979]

It's not just that one clip, it's been consistent from Kerr throughout Kenny's reign

[Bielsa´s irish]

I AGREE with weldoninhio

27 matches is a lot. 2020-2021-2022 3 years is a lot for me. 5 victories : qatar, luxemburgo, azerbaiy?n, scotland , andorra

10 draws

10 defeats scotland ukraine armenia luxemburg england portugal serbia finland (2) wales

[pineapple stu]

But what's wrong with that clip?

[geysir]

Stu
That doesn't really answer the question though.

What did Kerr say in that clip that's so objectionable (bearing in mind he's a pundit and being paid to give an opinion, so he's not just randomly mouthing off)
My take is an overview of Kerr's comments over a period of time on his attitude on Kenny, in this instance his body language and shugs speak all but I can't quote that.
Here are all the reactive replies on twitter, delivered on the spot in response to Kerr's comments about Kenny, not scientific I know but I suspect are representative.

He’s very jealous of him which is obvious to see. He gets paid an awful lot of money off virgin media to talk a lot of ******** about this and that. The bloke is washed up. He’s just a bitter old jealous man who was never good enough to manage Ireland in the first place.


I'm a massive Brian Kerr fan, and we all know he tried to play football, but he needs to rise above his.own ego here, he has so much in common with Stephen Kenny, he's simply scarred by his own history


He honestly doesn’t like Kenny from the minute he got the job must be some history there


Brian is embarrassing himself at this stage. Every time he talks about Kenny


My god has he any family to advise him to shut up




Such a bitter old ******

[geysir]

Stu
That doesn't really answer the question though.

What did Kerr say in that clip that's so objectionable (bearing in mind he's a pundit and being paid to give an opinion, so he's not just randomly mouthing off)
What he said supports my interpretatation and how he said it supports it also in my opinion, it oozes begrudgery.
Regardless look at the few instant responses to Kerr's grumbles on twitter
He’s very jealous of him which is obvious to see. He gets paid an awful lot of money off virgin media to talk a lot of ******** about this and that. The bloke is washed up. He’s just a bitter old jealous man who was never good enough to manage Ireland in the first place.


I'm a massive Brian Kerr fan, and we all know he tried to play football, but he needs to rise above his.own ego here, he has so much in common with Stephen Kenny, he's simply scarred by his own history


He honestly doesn’t like Kenny from the minute he got the job must be some history there


Brian is embarrassing himself at this stage. Every time he talks about Kenny


My god has he any family to advise him to shut up




Such a bitter old ******

BTW is there something up with Foot ie, there are gremlins interfering with functionality

[Bielsa´s irish]

no, Kerr is correct, in my view, he talks sense, He isnt jealous he was warning about this the whole time, Ireland hadnt yet met the big boys of Euros . IRELAND needs results, this game is results, and vs SCOTLAND second half the time was very coward, all the chances bar the one from Doherty in second half, came because of scottish turnovers, even that big one on one was a miscontrolled ball that OBAFEMI took advantage

[Bielsa´s irish]

if anything kerr is really worried about IRELAND not jealous, lets talk football,

kerr talks football, some here talk romance and mystery books. This is a result game. 25 matches 5 wins, 10 draws 10 defeats this must be enough Even McGrath talked about it , is big Paul jealous?

[geysir]

Tets, there is something corrupt going on with the site, at least on Mac OS browsers. I don't mean Pineapple stu :) but with the functionality of the discussion board format.

[John83]

Pineapple has flagged it in support.

[Bielsa´s irish]

yes we cant quote , thanks for this

[tetsujin1979]

Thread in the support on the ongoing issues since the maintenance over the weekend

[pineapple stu]

Stu
My take is an overview of Kerr's comments over a period of time on his attitude on Kenny, in this instance his body language and shugs speak all but I can't quote that.
Here are all the reactive replies on twitter, delivered on the spot in response to Kerr's comments about Kenny, not scientific I know but I suspect are representative.

He?s very jealous of him which is obvious to see. He gets paid an awful lot of money off virgin media to talk a lot of ******** about this and that. The bloke is washed up. He?s just a bitter old jealous man who was never good enough to manage Ireland in the first place.


I'm a massive Brian Kerr fan, and we all know he tried to play football, but he needs to rise above his.own ego here, he has so much in common with Stephen Kenny, he's simply scarred by his own history


He honestly doesn?t like Kenny from the minute he got the job must be some history there


Brian is embarrassing himself at this stage. Every time he talks about Kenny


My god has he any family to advise him to shut up




Such a bitter old ******

But there's still literally nothing in there which answers the question of "What's wrong with the clip?"

When you're picking quotes from twitter dismissing him for being bitter and jealous, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

It'd be far easier, surely, to pick a quote or two from the clip and show why you've an issue with them?

[passinginterest]

Considering it's 27 games, I decided to look at the progress in terms of 9 game batches.

First 9 games were obviously a bit of a nightmare and the stats are grim. Won 0, Drew 4, Lost 5. Scored 3 and conceded 10. Win % of zero and loss % of 55.56%. Average of 0.33 goals for and 1.11 against.
Second 9 looks better (opposition definitely weaker overall too I'd say). Won 3, Drew 4, Lost 2. Scored 15 and conceded 7. Win% of 33.33% and loss % of 22.22%. Average of 1.67 goals for and 0.78 against.
Most recent 9 (arguably strongest opponents includes Portugal, Belgium and Scotland and Ukraine twice). Won 3, Drew 3, Lost 3. Scored 11 and conceded 7. Win% of 33.33% and loss % of 33.33%. Average of 1.22 goals for and 0.78 against.

Overall that's a record of Won 6, Drew 11, Lost 10. Scored 29 and conceded 24. Win% of 22.22% and loss % of 37.04%. Average of 1.07 goals for and 0.89 against.

Since game 10 things have been fairly consistent in terms of results with the 33% win rate (still lower than Staunton as I'm sure will be noted). Considering the start there's no doubt things have improved but there's also no doubt they need to improve again, starting with a win tomorrow. No win tomorrow, and I think it leaves Kenny in a very close to untenable position (especially if the contract break clause the FAI are supposed to have is true). For all the green shoots anything but a comfortable win tomorrow puts things back to square one.

I don't know if anyone can pull up the stats in terms of age of the starting team in Scotland, but it must be one of the youngest ever too? Only McClean and Doherty over 30? I think Kenny still deserves credit for what he's trying to do and the players he's bringing through. But, I've said before, I'm not sure he's going to survive long enough to be the manager who benefits from it.

[jbyrne]

But there's still literally nothing in there which answers the question of "What's wrong with the clip?"

When you're picking quotes from twitter dismissing him for being bitter and jealous, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

It'd be far easier, surely, to pick a quote or two from the clip and show why you've an issue with them?

i didn't watch more than a minute or so on the night and there were two sneers in that clip.
the reference to the 44,000 tickets sold and that SK seems to be suggesting he is the first ever irish manager to try and play good football. there is no evidence that SK ever said that.

I really hope kerr isn't including himself as an irish manager that tried to play good football. some of his performances were complete dross and overly conservative.

[pineapple stu]

OK, well fair dues for actually picking out a couple of comments first off. (That sounds sarcastic but isn't meant to be!)

I don't really agree they're sneers though. For example, Dan McDonnell has also referenced Kenny's comments about the expected crowd (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/another-nations-league-loss-raises-questions-about-irelands-composure-in-tight-games-42015737.html); is that a sneer? Kenny also does reference his style of play a fair bit - and a lot of the time he uses these comments to deflect from his really bad record. His comments that he was targetting promotion from the NL group was another example.

So I think - given that Kerr is in a pundit role and being asked for his opinion - they're fair comments.

I do agree with you on Kerr's style of play, but there's no evidence he's saying we played better football under him than now.

[tetsujin1979]

I don't know if anyone can pull up the stats in terms of age of the starting team in Scotland, but it must be one of the youngest ever too? Only McClean and Doherty over 30? I think Kenny still deserves credit for what he's trying to do and the players he's bringing through. But, I've said before, I'm not sure he's going to survive long enough to be the manager who benefits from it.
Youngest since the friendly against New Zealand in 2019. Average age of the starting XI that night was 24.7, the average age against Scotland was 24.89.
The New Zealand friendly was also the last time there were more players under the age of 30 name in the starting XI - 10

It's the youngest starting XI in a competitive international since a world cup qualifier against Cyprus in November 1980, average age that night was 24.88

[Bielsa´s irish]

25 games played not 27

[weldoninhio]

Youngest since the friendly against New Zealand in 2019. Average age of the starting XI that night was 24.7, the average age against Scotland was 24.89.
The New Zealand friendly was also the last time there were more players under the age of 30 name in the starting XI - 10

It's the youngest starting XI in a competitive international since a world cup qualifier against Cyprus in November 1980, average age that night was 24.88

How many points does having a young team get you??

[Diggs246]

How many points does having a young team get you??

I'm sorry tets but he is correct
Its 11 v 11 and age is not relevant

[tetsujin1979]

I'm sorry tets but he is correct
Its 11 v 11 and age is not relevant
I never said it was? passinginterest wanted to know how the age of the team compared with previous starting XIs and I looked it up

[Diggs246]

I never said it was? passinginterest wanted to know how the age of the team compared with previous starting XIs and I looked it up
No you didn't and apologies
But it does seem kenny has some sort of diplomatic immunity because his team is younger

[passinginterest]

The younger team is significant though. It's not just young, it's historically young. A footballer probably peaks between 28 and 30 yet here we've a team average under 25. That suggests we're at least 3 years from the team reaching its peak. It's a crude measure, but it's not insignificant in terms of rebuilding. The Euros qualifiers will be a big test and after that we should see the team peaking coming into world cup qualification. That's not to say results don't matter, of course they do, but it's more to add to the point that this is a huge rebuild and there's every chance that Kenny is laying foundations that someone else will likely see the real benefit of.

[paul_oshea]

Playing a young team seems to win you a lot of time. How long now is Kenny in charge 3 years? I think its a bit hypocritical to keep saying how great he is for playing young players and bringing them through because its very unfair to say any other manager wouldn't have done the same if they could have been in 3 qualifying campaigns/tournaments and being out of contention in all after a couple of games, throw in a one off playoff game too. All Irelands managers remits previously was to qualify for campaigns with bonus add-ons and incentivised towards that.

I didnt see anything wrong in the clip posted from Kerr, whatever his intentions his point was pretty fair. I do find the LOI contingent hypocrites though, arguably the best period in LOI football in Europe and not one player near the squad? Kenny was harping on about that when he was in charge of Dundalk, LOI and ybig are usually the biggest naysayers going and jumping on the backs of managers from the start yet they are very quiet when it comes to Kenny.

I'll say it again but kenny has been very lucky, covid and short qualifying windows have made it more difficult to get someone else in, theres an attitude of ah give him this one, give him the next one because the turn around time is much shorter.

Watching Steve Clarkes interview the last day got me thinking someone should have kenny watching it on repeat. He was humble, gracious and praising of the Irish team, the youngsters and Kenny himself. Perhaps laying the foundations for himself at some point in Ireland too?

Personally I think there is nothing to gain from getting rid of Kenny at this point unless a loss to Armenia tonight, our younger players are getting plenty of game time and that's about all we can ask for at this stage. Let him get the Euros campaign going, keeping in mind a possible successor and if after 2 games we are out of contention again then set the wheels in motion to get him replaced before the end of the campaign so a potential new manager has some games to play with.

[paul_oshea]

I don't really agree they're sneers though. For example, Dan McDonnell has also referenced Kenny's comments about the expected crowd (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/another-nations-league-loss-raises-questions-about-irelands-composure-in-tight-games-42015737.html); is that a sneer? Kenny also does reference his style of play a fair bit - and a lot of the time he uses these comments to deflect from his really bad record. His comments that he was targetting promotion from the NL group was another example..

Ya hes beginning to sound like Elon Musk. Even his latest press conference smacks of same. But if you mention that to any of Musks followers theres a denial going on.

As a guy once said to me, he'll get it done, theres no guarantee when but he'll get it done.

[Snapshot]

The younger team is significant though. It's not just young, it's historically young. A footballer probably peaks between 28 and 30 yet here we've a team average under 25. That suggests we're at least 3 years from the team reaching its peak. It's a crude measure, but it's not insignificant in terms of rebuilding. The Euros qualifiers will be a big test and after that we should see the team peaking coming into world cup qualification. That's not to say results don't matter, of course they do, but it's more to add to the point that this is a huge rebuild and there's every chance that Kenny is laying foundations that someone else will likely see the real benefit of.
The Euros will be a big test rather than the big test? So you're now casting the Euros - Kenny's fourth campaign - to the Gods of More Time?

[paul_oshea]

I don't know if anyone can pull up the stats in terms of age of the starting team in Scotland, but it must be one of the youngest ever too? Only McClean and Doherty over 30? I think Kenny still deserves credit for what he's trying to do and the players he's bringing through. But, I've said before, I'm not sure he's going to survive long enough to be the manager who benefits from it.

If you were to graph kennys reign and bring it to a board of performance reviewers how do you think that would look?

[Real ale Madrid]

What's this 4th campaign nonsense? Its his second campaign - Kenny's primary remit is to qualify us for Euro 2024, if we qualify then great - if not he will be let go. We've transitioned to a team who could barely score a goal early in his reign, to a now inconsistent side who are capable of big results - the next step is to play well consistently over the course of a campaign and that will mean results like Armenia away which has crippled our Nations League chances will be intolerable. I don't understand the calls now for him to be sacked tbh - particularly off the back of our last 3 performances. We are clearly improving performance wise.

[Real ale Madrid]

If you were to graph kennys reign and bring it to a board of performance reviewers how do you think that would look?

Nations League 2020-21:
League B
Seeded 3rd in group of 4. Finished 3rd

2022 FIFA World Cup Qualification:
Group A
Seeded 3rd in group of 5. Finished 3rd

Nations League 2022-23:
League B
Seeded 3rd in group of 4. Finished 3rd (Probably)

[pineapple stu]

What's this 4th campaign nonsense? Its his second campaign
Euro 2024 qualifying will be Kenny's fourth campaign in charge.

Unless you're ignoring the Nations League, which makes no sense.

[Real ale Madrid]

Euro 2024 qualifying will be Kenny's fourth campaign in charge.

Unless you're ignoring the Nations League, which makes no sense.

I'm not ignoring it - Nations League is intertwined with Qualification. Qualification is the goal. That's how he will be judged.

People are comparing 2 x NL and 2 x Qualifications with 4 x past qualifications by stating that this is his "4th campaign" is not reflective of reality imo. It becomes a lot more important if you are in League C mind you.

[paul_oshea]

Nations League 2020-21:
League B
Seeded 3rd in group of 4. Finished 3rd

2022 FIFA World Cup Qualification:
Group A
Seeded 3rd in group of 5. Finished 3rd

Nations League 2022-23:
League B
Seeded 3rd in group of 4. Finished 3rd (Probably)

Thats why data has become such big business. Drill down into the finer details like games over windows, start of campaigns, second half performances...It would be a graph of multiple confidence intervals.

[pineapple stu]

I'm not ignoring it - Nations League is intertwined with Qualification. Qualification is the goal. That's how he will be judged.

People are comparing 2 x NL and 2 x Qualifications with 4 x past qualifications by stating that this is his "4th campaign" is not reflective of reality imo. It becomes a lot more important if you are in League C mind you.
Don't agree with that. Nations League is a campaign in its own right. It's a separate tournament with its own rewards (promotion, which he said was the target at the start of this group).

Yes, it links into Euro qualifying (sometimes - his first campaign didn't for example), and yes, it's different to how prior managers were judged - but things change, and evaluations need to adjust. Six games (the current Nations League) was a full qualifying campaign in 1992 for example.

To say it's nonsense that Kenny is going into his second campaign now is...well, nonsense.

[Real ale Madrid]

Don't agree with that. Nations League is a campaign in its own right. It's a separate tournament with its own rewards (promotion, which he said was the target at the start of this group).

Yes, it links into Euro qualifying (sometimes - his first campaign didn't for example), and yes, it's different to how prior managers were judged - but things change, and evaluations need to adjust. To say it's nonsense that Kenny is going into his second campaign now is...well, nonsense.

The campaign to qualify is split into 2 phases - a NL phase and a Qualification phase. Its not nonsense to evaluate each campaign at the end of each - that's how practically every Irish manager has been evaluated and that's how they will continue to be evaluated. The format has changed, the end goal has not. If you are going to stop now and judge manager at the end of every 6 NL games as is being intimated in previous posts citing the start of his 4th campaign then you are missing the point of the main goal.

Would we prefer to win the NL, get promoted to League A, finish 3rd in Qual and lose a playoff:

or

Finish 3rd in the NL and finish 2nd in Qual.

Kenny loses his job in scenario A, not in scenario B.

The NL is a great idea and has breathed a bit of life into international football but the main aim for teams save for those at the very top of the tree is the qualify for the big tournaments and that's how success and failure are judged over qualification campaigns.

[pineapple stu]

No-one's saying you have to stop and evaluate a manager after each six NL games, but it's not necessarily a bad idea either. And I think it's entirely reasonable to take the NL separately when building up a bigger picture.

If you choose to take the NL as an extension of qualifying, then you're effectively giving Kenny around half as much time again as others before evaluating him. That doesn't seem reasonable.

There may be an argument for grouping the two together, but it certainly isn't "nonsense" to consider the two NL campaigns as separate competitions and to say Kenny is starting into his fourth campaign

[weldoninhio]

The younger team is significant though. It's not just young, it's historically young. A footballer probably peaks between 28 and 30 yet here we've a team average under 25. That suggests we're at least 3 years from the team reaching its peak. It's a crude measure, but it's not insignificant in terms of rebuilding. The Euros qualifiers will be a big test and after that we should see the team peaking coming into world cup qualification. That's not to say results don't matter, of course they do, but it's more to add to the point that this is a huge rebuild and there's every chance that Kenny is laying foundations that someone else will likely see the real benefit of.

This ?huge rebuild? is the biggest red herring I?ve ever seen. He?s playing the players available to him. Any other manager would have to play them because there aren?t any others. He?s not getting the best out of them whatsoever. We aren?t hard to beart, we aren?t setting the world on going forward, we pass around the middle and the back to pad the stats, then fire if long you try to score. Same as every other manager we?ve ever had.

You?d swear Kenny was Wenger or Pep the way some go on about him. He?s had more than enough time. After tonight it?s time for him to go. Bohs is about his level and they are looking a manager.