Stephen Kenny

[Jd2793]

This reminds me of back when we couldn't score a goal under Kenny. His supporters were talking about the possession stats. It was embarrassing then and quoting xG is embarrassing now. He's way out of his depth at this level. Time for the Kenny fanatics to face facts. More people and media personnel are realising that they backed a flop.

"stats are embarrassing unless they back up my own view"

[pineapple stu]

portugals xG was 1.95 minus the pen. says a lot about the quality of those other 28 shots. but yeah lets see what happens , confidence on the floor after yday.
Well they did get the penalty in fairness!

Here (https://footystats.org/international/portugal-national-team-vs-republic-of-ireland-national-team-h2h-stats#1200172) says xG was 3.2, and a penalty is about 0.75, so that's 2.45 not 1.95?

Plus when you have Ronaldo, you can expect to beat xG. It's why he's one of the best players ever

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

"stats are embarrassing unless they back up my own view"

Results under Kenny are embarrassing and no amount of spinning, spoofing and lying from him and his supporters can hide that.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Well they did get the penalty in fairness!

Here (https://footystats.org/international/portugal-national-team-vs-republic-of-ireland-national-team-h2h-stats#1200172) says xG was 3.2, and a penalty is about 0.75, so that's 2.45 not 1.95?

Plus when you have Ronaldo, you can expect to beat xG. It's why he's one of the best players ever

No, no! You have to exclude that penalty and then you have to add on goals for us that we didn't actually score and then take away wins from our previous manager that we actually won followed by adding up our possession stats from certain matches and then consider that some matches were windy and then you can see that Kenny has done a superb job compared with his predecessors.

[elatedscum]

It was never a penalty. Not in a million years. VAR sent the ref across to review it cause Hendrick clearly got the ball. The ref wanting to be the one to get Ronaldo his record goal wasn’t having it

[weldoninhio]

we've not been spanked by anyone under SK though, so not really sure how you can come to that conclusion. We've been shocking against lesser sides and OK against those in or around us like scotland etc.

We haven’t really played a top tier team though. Englands 3rd string is probably the closest and that was a pointless kickabout.

[tetsujin1979]

We haven’t really played a top tier team though. Englands 3rd string is probably the closest and that was a pointless kickabout.

Portugal? Moreso in the away game, but that was a team littered with league and European medal winners

[Jd2793]

portugal are absolutely a top tier team. id argue serbia are aswell but people will debate that one. they have plenty of players who are starting in the top 5 euro leagues. serbia were better than portugal in that qualification campaign.

[weldoninhio]

Portugal? Moreso in the away game, but that was a team littered with league and European medal winners

Portugal are a decent team, but not top tier. Maybe once they get rid of the preening peacock who is well past his sell by date they’ll emerge better, but until his Me Fein ways are gone, much like last season at United, he’ll score goals, but the team will be worse for having him in it, because he demands everything goes to him.

[Jd2793]

portugal are worse with ronaldo in the team but they are still top tier, madness to suggest otherwise. cancelo and bernardo are 2 of the best players on the planet in anyones book.

[Stuttgart88]

Just out of curiosity, who are the top tier teams (and in this context I think discussion must be limited to Europe)? All international teams appear vulnerable or "imperfect" to me. France are World Champions and NL holders but are without a win in 6. Spain, Belgium, England, Germany - none without flaws there. I think on their day Portugal are as good as any.

My recollection of the away game was that we rode our luck early: Jota(?) miss and a penalty miss from a harsh decision. But a couple of incisive runs forward by Doherty and Coleman raised the tempo for us and got us into the game and we then played a really accomplished away performance: concede territory but keep them at bay and hit on the counter. We could have had a pen ourselves (Connolly) and we had 2 or 3 dangerous breakaways. It was an almost textbook away performance against a team that I'd rate as considerably better than us. Baz made a good save from a free kick late on and then came the two goals from a world class header of a ball but before that Portugal were getting a bit desperate.


I totally get the criticism of Kenny's tenure - most of it is deserved - but I think the performance in Portugal has to be acknowledged as very good. It's churlish to try to qualify it as "they should have scored first" (isn't that how football works?) or any other stuff like that.

As recently as Scotland away - Parrott scores / Browne doesn't handle the ball stupidly - we could have been appreciating a very good performance. We lost concentration and the midfield battle at key times it's true, but their midfielders are objectively better than ours.

[pineapple stu]

It was an almost textbook away performance against a team that I'd rate as considerably better than us.
I'd agree with that. Could it on another day have finished 5-1? I think so. But it didn't, and among other things that was down to resolute defending on our part which limited the effectiveness of Portugal's 29 shots. That's all part of football.

I don't think it needs be mutually exclusive to consider that we could (rather than should) have lost 5-1, but that we didn't because we defended very well and countered when we could.

There will be "another day" of course - four of them are coming up, against France/Holland - and one of those could very well finish 5-1.

[paul_oshea]

Just out of curiosity, who are the top tier teams (and in this context I think discussion must be limited to Europe)? All international teams appear vulnerable or "imperfect" to me. France are World Champions and NL holders but are without a win in 6. Spain, Belgium, England, Germany - none without flaws there. I think on their day Portugal are as good as any.

My recollection of the away game was that we rode our luck early: Jota(?) miss and a penalty miss from a harsh decision. But a couple of incisive runs forward by Doherty and Coleman raised the tempo for us and got us into the game and we then played a really accomplished away performance: concede territory but keep them at bay and hit on the counter. We could have had a pen ourselves (Connolly) and we had 2 or 3 dangerous breakaways. It was an almost textbook away performance against a team that I'd rate as considerably better than us. Baz made a good save from a free kick late on and then came the two goals from a world class header of a ball but before that Portugal were getting a bit desperate.


I totally get the criticism of Kenny's tenure - most of it is deserved - but I think the performance in Portugal has to be acknowledged as very good. It's churlish to try to qualify it as "they should have scored first" (isn't that how football works?) or any other stuff like that.

As recently as Scotland away - Parrott scores / Browne doesn't handle the ball stupidly - we could have been appreciating a very good performance. We lost concentration and the midfield battle at key times it's true, but their midfielders are objectively better than ours.

You've said there for first paragraph a) you've given reasons for why we had a great away performance and dismiss others observations about X y or z. Then you inverse the argument and use X y z as reasons why the other games should/could be considered the same. You can't have it both ways. My observation was it was a one off Russia type backs to the wall type performance - but willing to counter and get them on the break unlike Russia game. We got lucky and scraped through that one with a draw but like Portugal on another day Russia would have scored some of those misses; except with that performance we backed it up consistently in that group

[weldoninhio]

Just out of curiosity, who are the top tier teams (and in this context I think discussion must be limited to Europe)? All international teams appear vulnerable or "imperfect" to me. France are World Champions and NL holders but are without a win in 6. Spain, Belgium, England, Germany - none without flaws there. I think on their day Portugal are as good as any.

My recollection of the away game was that we rode our luck early: Jota(?) miss and a penalty miss from a harsh decision. But a couple of incisive runs forward by Doherty and Coleman raised the tempo for us and got us into the game and we then played a really accomplished away performance: concede territory but keep them at bay and hit on the counter. We could have had a pen ourselves (Connolly) and we had 2 or 3 dangerous breakaways. It was an almost textbook away performance against a team that I'd rate as considerably better than us. Baz made a good save from a free kick late on and then came the two goals from a world class header of a ball but before that Portugal were getting a bit desperate.


I totally get the criticism of Kenny's tenure - most of it is deserved - but I think the performance in Portugal has to be acknowledged as very good. It's churlish to try to qualify it as "they should have scored first" (isn't that how football works?) or any other stuff like that.

As recently as Scotland away - Parrott scores / Browne doesn't handle the ball stupidly - we could have been appreciating a very good performance. We lost concentration and the midfield battle at key times it's true, but their midfielders are objectively better than ours.

I’d say France, Germany, Belgium, England, Brazil and Argentina would be above the rest of the world.

The very top tier. Portugal would be a rung below them.

[Jd2793]

I’d say France, Germany, Belgium, England, Brazil and Argentina would be above the rest of the world.

The very top tier. Portugal would be a rung below them.

germany are below portugal in the fifa rankings. germany have been waning since 2018.

[weldoninhio]

germany are below portugal in the fifa rankings. germany have been waning since 2018.

Iran are in the top 20 of the FIFA rankings. I’ll revisit the “waning” Germans with you after this World Cup.

[pineapple stu]

I think there's always a feeling around Portugal that they never quite live up to their potential; that they underachieve. Three wins across their last three World Cups for example. Better record at the Euros but bottled their own tournament by losing to Greece twice, and even when they won, they only won one match in 90 minutes.

They don't have the aura Germany/France/Spain/Holland/England or even Belgium have, despite of course the latter three not winning anything in decades, if ever. They all feel more consistent though.

Portugal are a bit of an enigma in a way

[Stuttgart88]

France only came 3rd in their group and England got relegated from the Nations League though. Germany are erratic. Brazil & Argentina (lost to Saudi :)) aren't really in the mix as the discussion is who are the top tier sides in context of European qualifying groups. I think there's a fine line dividing Europe's best 6-8 teams. They're all very good but they have flaws. But it's a subjective opinion of course. I'd say you're right in the sense that Portugal would be second favorites ex ante against any of those 4, but really not by much.

(edited: I thought France got relegated but Tets corrected me)

[tetsujin1979]

I’d say France, Germany, Belgium, England, Brazil and Argentina would be above the rest of the world.

The very top tier. Portugal would be a rung below them.
Portugal, second behind Spain in group A2, did better than all of those in their nations League campaign this year, except Belgium who also finished second. France finished third in their nations league group, so did Germany. and England were relegated from theirs without a win

[Jd2793]

the agenda is hilarious. no point engaging any more.

[Stuttgart88]

Latvia next up in March, a friendly just before we play France. Just announced.

120 more sleeps.

[pineapple stu]

Oh God.

Lithuania, Malta, and now Latvia.

You can't help feel we're finding our level with these friendly opponents...

Is it home or away?

[Jd2793]

Latvia next up in March, a friendly just before we play France. Just announced.

120 more sleeps.

another episode of struggle-ball

[Stuttgart88]

Oh God.

Lithuania, Malta, and now Latvia.

You can't help feel we're finding our level with these friendly opponents...

Is it home or away?

Home I think.

[tetsujin1979]

Oh God.

Lithuania, Malta, and now Latvia.

You can't help feel we're finding our level with these friendly opponents...

Is it home or away?
To be fair the selection for opposition is limited, given that the first round of qualification fixtures will be taking place at the time

[Eminence Grise]

I’d say France, Germany, Belgium, England, Brazil and Argentina would be above the rest of the world.

The very top tier. Portugal would be a rung below them.

Saudi Arabia, maybe?

[joey B]

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/alarm-bells-are-ringing-as-stephen-kennys-ireland-look-well-off-the-pace-in-two-key-areas-42162863.html?gender=u

Decent article from Gary Breen in the Indo,focuses on our lack of creativity in the final third and our poor defending from set pieces,Breen doesn’t have much confidence in Kenny rectifying either….

[Razors left peg]

Portugal are a decent team, but not top tier. Maybe once they get rid of the preening peacock who is well past his sell by date they’ll emerge better, but until his Me Fein ways are gone, much like last season at United, he’ll score goals, but the team will be worse for having him in it, because he demands everything goes to him.

Show me another all time great goalscorer who wasnt selfish on the pitch?

[Diggs246]

Show me another all time great goalscorer who wasnt selfish on the pitch?

Conor sammon

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

It seems vital for Kenny supporters to talk up any opposition we come against. Remember even Luxembourg and Azerbaijan were talked up. Strangely, prior to Kenny coming on board, other teams were all beatable. Barely coming behind Denmark and Switzerland was seen as an abject failure.

For the last 40 years we've competed with all the top teams, we qualify for tournaments or come close to qualifying. When we haven't, the manager gets sacked. Even Staunton drew with Germany and Czech Republic. We now are looking at the euro qualifiers as hopeless but that's where Kenny has dragged us. Into no hopers. It's some achievement in 2 years!

[seanfhear]

Kenny has done a great job at lowering expectations.

[paul_oshea]

Well he's definitely managing expectations very well.

[Fixer82]

Conor sammon

Yep. That’s the name that leaped out at me too

[Stuttgart88]

I’d say France, Germany, Belgium, England, Brazil and Argentina would be above the rest of the world.

The very top tier. Portugal would be a rung below them.Still? :)

Watch out Brazil and Belgium...

[SkStu]

Its like a "Weldoninhio Bingo" :)

[nigel-harps1954]

I've been a Kenny supporter since day one, not out of any blind LOI loyalty or any of that nonsense, because I hated him as a LOI manager. He upset the odds repeatedly at Dundalk, and took the under-21 side to levels we've not seen before. I think he more than deserved his chance.

Now, things aren't going great, but it is a monumental shift in style, attitude, and everything football related from the rubbish we've seen for years previous, let's not forget the shambles of a Northern Ireland friendly and being outnumbered by away support that night only a few years ago. That doesn't excuse how bad it has gone though. A corner should have been turned by now.

I think his time is coming to an end. Things just aren't working out as planned.

Another part of me wants him to stay though, mostly because of the completely rotten attitude from some posters on here who would dare call themselves Ireland supporters when they've had daggers out from the minute Kenny was appointed. I desperately want him to succeed, just out of spite to those. It's utterly pathetic to see grown adults having such a pitiful attitude towards the Ireland manager.

[jbyrne]

yes, there are some posters who you feel would never be happy and have never been happy with any of our managers

[CraftyToePoke]

I think he should have experimented in the Norway / Malta window, it was an unimportant window and several players played as such when he can't really afford that from them. He should have picked Hodge / Smallbone / Coventry / McNamara / Manning / Szmodics / Sykes & given them all a half each over the two games. In not doing so he attached too much importance to two nothing games & applied even more pressure to himself where there is plenty pressure already. He would probably have secured two similar results anyway & indeed might have gotten better results from lads wanting into the set up & playing like that. It would have bought some much needed goodwill too.

It was a mistake of a man really feeling the pressure now IMO & the fear of losing.

None of it warrants the bile being directed at him by certain posters on here. He's struggling, yes, mostly because the u21 crop he was put in charge because of have collectively and individually failed to impact at a level expected by the Association and whoever got the job would have faced that. Any other manger would have hidden behind that as his predecessors often did, but to his credit he has never mentioned it.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Now, things aren't going great, but it is a monumental shift in style, attitude, and everything football related

You are correct in that it's a monumental shift but not as you outlined. The monumental shift has been to change us from a competitive team to a complete shambles trying to avoid coming bottom in qualification campaigns instead of trying to qualify.

[Eminence Grise]

I've been a Kenny supporter since day one, not out of any blind LOI loyalty or any of that nonsense, because I hated him as a LOI manager. He upset the odds repeatedly at Dundalk, and took the under-21 side to levels we've not seen before. I think he more than deserved his chance.

Now, things aren't going great, but it is a monumental shift in style, attitude, and everything football related from the rubbish we've seen for years previous, let's not forget the shambles of a Northern Ireland friendly and being outnumbered by away support that night only a few years ago. That doesn't excuse how bad it has gone though. A corner should have been turned by now.

I think his time is coming to an end. Things just aren't working out as planned.

Another part of me wants him to stay though, mostly because of the completely rotten attitude from some posters on here who would dare call themselves Ireland supporters when they've had daggers out from the minute Kenny was appointed. I desperately want him to succeed, just out of spite to those. It's utterly pathetic to see grown adults having such a pitiful attitude towards the Ireland manager.

Well said, Nigel. Very well said.

[EalingGreen]

Show me another all time great goalscorer who wasnt selfish on the pitch?
He's maybe not yet an "all time" great, but at 29, Harry Kane could certainly get there - just 3 goals short of the England record and a decent bet to overtake Jimmy Greaves' Spurs record and Alan Shearer's EPL record.

Yet his "Assist" count is equally impressive, as eg Heung Min Son could testify, after tying with Salah for the EPL Golden Boot last season, when Kane still notched 17 goals of his own, alongside 9 assists.

[Snapshot]

I've been a Kenny supporter since day one, not out of any blind LOI loyalty or any of that nonsense, because I hated him as a LOI manager. He upset the odds repeatedly at Dundalk, and took the under-21 side to levels we've not seen before. I think he more than deserved his chance.

Now, things aren't going great, but it is a monumental shift in style, attitude, and everything football related from the rubbish we've seen for years previous, let's not forget the shambles of a Northern Ireland friendly and being outnumbered by away support that night only a few years ago. That doesn't excuse how bad it has gone though. A corner should have been turned by now.

I think his time is coming to an end. Things just aren't working out as planned.

Another part of me wants him to stay though, mostly because of the completely rotten attitude from some posters on here who would dare call themselves Ireland supporters when they've had daggers out from the minute Kenny was appointed. I desperately want him to succeed, just out of spite to those. It's utterly pathetic to see grown adults having such a pitiful attitude towards the Ireland manager.

Or could it be that those who believed Kenny a poor appointment are being proven right? Such sceptics are now demonised with "not giving him a chance" and having a "completely rotten attitude". It's an inconvenient fact that Kenny supporters were wall-to-wall in their toasting of a supposed new era where every fan would emerge from a beautiful game with a smile on the dial - whether we won or lost. The media was on board too. Belittling previous managers who actually achieved something was not uncommon. Support was near 90% - what could possibly go wrong? So yes, it's not working out as planned (some might call that failure) and some of the debate was spicy. That's football. Cop it sweet.

[seanfhear]

If Kenny's supporters can't stand the heat ? ~ ~ Should they be in the Football Kitchen ?

[Stuttgart88]

It seems vital for Kenny supporters to talk up any opposition we come against. Remember even Luxembourg and Azerbaijan were talked up. Strangely, prior to Kenny coming on board, other teams were all beatable. Barely coming behind Denmark and Switzerland was seen as an abject failure.

For the last 40 years we've competed with all the top teams, we qualify for tournaments or come close to qualifying. When we haven't, the manager gets sacked. Even Staunton drew with Germany and Czech Republic. We now are looking at the euro qualifiers as hopeless but that's where Kenny has dragged us. Into no hopers. It's some achievement in 2 years!Is this in context of debating whether Portugal are top tier or a notch below top tier?

And on the "what we were vs what we are point" I genuinely think international football is harder now for all but the elite teams. Countries that were weak 25 years ago are well organised now and harder to play against. Teams like Greece, Turkey, Scotland all have far better structures and facilities (Turkey's are amazing and they have a huge population) yet they've sunk to NL League 3 in recent times. Our domestic facilities are pathetic. Of course during this time Ireland has declined too. So almost every game we play is objectively difficult or a banana skin. That's just the way it is.

Has Kenny dragged us down this low? I don't think so, or at least it's too simple to say it's all down to him. I think we're in decline and have been for a while and need to pull a few rabbits out of the hat talent-wise. As CTP says, the promising U21 crop just hasn't developed.

Could Kenny be doing better? Yes, absolutely and in so many ways. Stu and Gary Breen both say the same thing I think: there have been steps forward but frequently followed by big steps back. The last window infuriated me for its conservatism. I have little confidence in Kenny at the moment but I think it's more or less right that he's still here. I do think he has started something that must be finished, though not necessarily by him. If there was a clearly better alternative available - Irish or otherwise - I'd be very open to it.

And footy is a bit mad too: Germany & Argentina could/should have been out of sight, then lost.

[EAFC_rdfl]

If Kenny's supporters can't stand the heat ? ~ ~ Should they be in the Football Kitchen ?

Still trying to figure out the purpose of all the tildas. Almost as confusing as some of Bielsa's waffle at this stage!

[tetsujin1979]

FWIW I do think that Kenny has improved some aspects of our play. We've more possession and attempt/complete more passes in games that we did under previous managers, but so much of it is what Mourinho (or Wenger?) called "sterile possession", i.e having the ball but doing nothing with it. Against Norway, we spent so much time getting the ball from defence into midfield, where we were outnumbered, and the ball rarely went into the final third. Kenny has his ideas of how football should be played, how chances should be created, and there's nothing wrong with that, but he doesn't seem to have a plan B. It's been mentioned a few times that the substitutions he makes happen too late to have any real impact on the game, against Norway hid first change came after Norway had already made three changes. I was in the East stand and didn't see anyone warming up untli around the 65th minute, so a substitute couldn't come on until the 70th minute.

[seanfhear]

Still trying to figure out the purpose of all the tildas. Almost as confusing as some of Bielsa's waffle at this stage!
The heat in the football kitchen is not for everyone.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Is this in context of debating whether Portugal are top tier or a notch below top tier?

And on the "what we were vs what we are point" I genuinely think international football is harder now for all but the elite teams. Countries that were weak 25 years ago are well organised now and harder to play against. Teams like Greece, Turkey, Scotland all have far better structures and facilities (Turkey's are amazing and they have a huge population) yet they've sunk to NL League 3 in recent times. Our domestic facilities are pathetic. Of course during this time Ireland has declined too. So almost every game we play is objectively difficult or a banana skin. That's just the way it is.

Has Kenny dragged us down this low? I don't think so, or at least it's too simple to say it's all down to him. I think we're in decline and have been for a while and need to pull a few rabbits out of the hat talent-wise. As CTP says, the promising U21 crop just hasn't developed.

Could Kenny be doing better? Yes, absolutely and in so many ways. Stu and Gary Breen both say the same thing I think: there have been steps forward but frequently followed by big steps back. The last window infuriated me for its conservatism. I have little confidence in Kenny at the moment but I think it's more or less right that he's still here. I do think he has started something that must be finished, though not necessarily by him. If there was a clearly better alternative available - Irish or otherwise - I'd be very open to it.

And footy is a bit mad too: Germany & Argentina could/should have been out of sight, then lost.

Not just Portugal, it appears to be every team we face are been talked up or excuses made. Just like what you've done there. There are more countries that are competitive now all of a sudden. This excuse wasn't used or accepted for any previous managers. Was anyone saying that when we struggled to a draw against Georgia in McCarthy's last reign? We have gone into every group thinking we could qualify, against Denmark and Switzerland under McCarthy, against Serbia, Wales and Austria in 2018, against Germany, Poland and Scotland for Euro 2016. Most of us either expected us to qualify or come very close to it. Now we have Kenny saying that surely no one expected us to qualify ahead of Serbia and Portugal for the World Cup, everyone saying we have no hope against France and the Netherlands. This kind of defeatist attitude has been introduced by Kenny and his supporters have bought into it. We used to criticise managers talking down our players and now all we hear from Kenny supporters is that our players are crap. McCarthy had a midfield of an aging Glenn Whelan, Hendrick and Hourihane, he made us competitive. Kenny has had a squad of similar or better quality depending on how you look at it and he has made us uncompetitive.

This is also ignoring that the only periods of improvement under Kenny has come when coaching, formation and tactics were implemented by someone else. When Kenny was in charge with only inexperienced coaches with him, we could barely score a goal, had no direction and were left languishing in our groups. This happened without actually building for the future, look at the teams he selected in his first Nations League. This building for 2024 myth was only introduced by Kenny after the Luxembourg defeat. This again was swallowed without question by Kenny supporters. And this is the crux of the issue. For many people, this is about Stephen Kenny succeeding and not about Ireland. They backed him as the saviour of Irish football, celebrated the removal of McCarthy and have sung his name since, even when losing to Luxembourg. They refuse to admit they've backed a dud and now it's about saving face. The same with Kenny, the development of our players come secondary to him saving his job. It's not right that he's still there because he's probably the worst manager in our history, his record backs this up. And he's mostly played against countries with players in lower leagues than ours. We usually punch above our weight but he has us punching way below. He is doing serious damage to our progression and has already driven us far back from where he took over.

[Stuttgart88]

I just don't see it the same way, which isn't to say I'm offering unqualified support to Kenny. My personal expectations have been downgraded for quite a while (2012 era maybe) and I think I've been realistic in my assessment of opponents. Not necessarily because they're good but because we've been in decline and just not developing players of sufficient quality to be considered a solid tier 2 country anymore. I think for about a decade we've been a tier 3 nation who could on occasion mix it with a tier 1 or 2 country. Remember we did only come (a good) third in 2016 qualifying. And I think we had senior players of a better quality then. Although we have players at decent clubs now, very few are key players at their clubs.

I think it's a while since we punched above our weight. But yes, it's clear we're not doing it now and it doesn't look like we will for some time either

I'm not sure it's a myth that we've been building for 2024. I had understood all along this episode has been seen as a rebuild and a change in attitude. The problem is that the rebuild has been haphazard, confused and often too conservative. Poor results have put pressure on Kenny to sacrifice experimentation with results, as you rightly say, but at the same time Collins, Omobamidele, the goalies, O'Shea, Cullen, Knight, Molumby are all mainstays now and others would have been if not for injury. That's a pretty hefty shift in personnel.

I think there has been more than a bit of exaggeration there too. McCarthy's departure wasn't celebrated, was it? I think most people were surprised by the timing of Kenny's elevation and I think it was a mistake on two fronts (the play off and the U21s). I was glad to see the back of McCarthy because I think it signified the end of a long era that was essentially Charlton v.5.0 and our entering the 21st century was far too long overdue.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I just don't see it the same way, which isn't to say I'm offering unqualified support to Kenny. My personal expectations have been downgraded for quite a while (2012 era maybe) and I think I've been realistic in my assessment of opponents. Not necessarily because they're good but because we've been in decline and just not developing players of sufficient quality to be considered a solid tier 2 country anymore. I think for about a decade we've been a tier 3 nation who could on occasion mix it with a tier 1 or 2 country. Remember we did only come (a good) third in 2016 qualifying. And I think we had senior players of a better quality then. Although we have players at decent clubs now, very few are key players at their clubs.

I think it's a while since we punched above our weight. But yes, it's clear we're not doing it now and it doesn't look like we will for some time either

I'm not sure it's a myth that we've been building for 2024. I had understood all along this episode has been seen as a rebuild and a change in attitude. The problem is that the rebuild has been haphazard, confused and often too conservative. Poor results have put pressure on Kenny to sacrifice experimentation with results, as you rightly say, but at the same time Collins, Omobamidele, the goalies, O'Shea, Cullen, Knight, Molumby are all mainstays now and others would have been if not for injury. That's a pretty hefty shift in personnel.

I think there has been more than a bit of exaggeration there too. McCarthy's departure wasn't celebrated, was it? I think most people were surprised by the timing of Kenny's elevation and I think it was a mistake on two fronts (the play off and the U21s). I was glad to see the back of McCarthy because I think it signified the end of a long era that was essentially Charlton v.5.0 and our entering the 21st century was far too long overdue.

To try to make your point, you've had to completely ignore McCarthy's reign directly before Kenny and the involvement of coaches such as Anthony Barry. It shows how weak your argument is when you're forced to do that. Switzerland got to the Euro quarter finals, Denmark got to the Euro semi finals. That's Kenny's starting point, those were the teams we were competing with. Now we're competing with Bulgaria, Luxembourg, Azerbaijan and Armenia. With nearly qualifying for the Euros, there was no talk of a rebuild. And Kenny's team selections reflected that there was no rebuild.

Here are Kenny's first 10 team selections:

v Bulgaria:
Darren Randolph Enda Stevens Shane Duffy John Egan Matt Doherty James McCarthy Adam Idah Jeff Hendrick Conor Hourihane Callum O'Dowda Aaron Connolly
v Finland
Darren Randolph; Enda Stevens, Shane Duffy John Egan, Matt Doherty; Robbie Brady, Harry Arter, Jayson Molumby; Callum O'Dowda Aaron Connolly Adam Idah
v Slovakia
Darren Randolph; Matt Doherty, Shane Duffy, John Egan, Enda Stevens; Jeff Hendrick, James McCarthy, Conor Hourihane; Callum Robinson, David McGoldrick, James McClean.
v Wales
Darren Randolph; Matt Doherty, Kevin Long Shane Duffy Enda Stevens; Conor Hourihane, Jeff Hendrick, Jayson Molumby Shane Long Robbie Brady James McClean
v Finland
Randolph; Doherty, Duffy (c), O'Shea, Stevens; Molumby, Hourihane, Horgan, Hendrick, Connolly; Maguire.
v England
Darren Randolph; Cyrus Christie, Matt Doherty, Shane Duffy, John Egan; Conor Hourihane, Jeff Hendrick, Alan Browne; Daryl Horgan, Callum O'Dowda, Adam Idah
v Wales
Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, O'Shea, Molumby, Hendrick, Horgan, Brady, McClean, Long, Idah
v Bulgaria
Darren Randolph; Ryan Manning, Kevin Long, Shane Duffy (capt), Dara O'Shea; Conor Hourihane, Jason Knight, Robbie Brady; Ronan Curtis, Daryl Horgan, James Collins.
v Serbia
Mark Travers; Seamus Coleman, Matt Doherty, Enda Stevens, Ciaran Clark, Dara O'Shea; Alan Browne, Jayson Molumby, Josh Cullen; Callum Robinson, Aaron Connolly.
v Luxembourg
Gavin Bazunu; Seamus Coleman, Dara O'Shea, Ciaran Clark; Matt Doherty, Enda Stevens, Josh Cullen, Jason Knight, Alan Browne; Callum Robinson, James Collins.

Pretty obvious that he wasn't planning for 2024 with those selections. That talk came after the Luxembourg defeat.

McCarthy's term ending early was celebrated, Kenny was coming in to transform our fortunes according to many. They look very foolish now. He had a competitive squad and a whole host of youngsters coming through to add to it, some you've listed. He has failed miserably with the hand he was dealt. There's no way around that fact. I think it's right to play a more progressive game on the pitch but Kenny is 100% not the man to implement it. He's proven that now. We stick with him in charge and the chances are that we'll end up with a long ball manager next. Like I said, he's doing serious damage to our progression.