Stephen Kenny

[elatedscum]

I’d suspect after November’s games, he’ll go across to England for a few weeks. He’s mentioned how he couldn’t go across because he’d have to isolate for 2 weeks after and with the games happening every month, he wouldn’t have time, but with LOI ending, no reason he couldn’t go across after the games and come back some point before Christmas. Or alternatively, stay for Dundalk’s last games and then go after Christmas.

[Charlie Darwin]

I meant after level 5 comes in. I suppose he's still working, essential journeys.
He's still allowed in - scouting for the national team would be considered the same as the media, who are allowed in.

[Exgrad]

Its interesting how few of our managers have gone on to do anything managerial wise after their stint with Ireland, apart form McCarthy first time round. Charlton never managed again, either did Stan or Trappatoni. Martin O'Neill got a gig briefly at Forest before getting the boot, will struggle to get anything decent again, as will Keane. Kerr with the Faroes and no one else i think? McCarthy struggling this time around and boring everyone with his co commentary. Not great really. And probably a sign we have not really hit upon the good managers on their way up.

[John83]

That, or we're a reputation-killer. :D

[paul_oshea]

Its interesting how few of our managers have gone on to do anything managerial wise after their stint with Ireland, apart form McCarthy first time round. Charlton never managed again, either did Stan or Trappatoni. Martin O'Neill got a gig briefly at Forest before getting the boot, will struggle to get anything decent again, as will Keane. Kerr with the Faroes and no one else i think? McCarthy struggling this time around and boring everyone with his co commentary. Not great really. And probably a sign we have not really hit upon the good managers on their way up.

I'd put a lot down to the age profile of managers we attract and also acquired.

[bennocelt]

Its interesting how few of our managers have gone on to do anything managerial wise after their stint with Ireland, apart form McCarthy first time round. Charlton never managed again, either did Stan or Trappatoni. Martin O'Neill got a gig briefly at Forest before getting the boot, will struggle to get anything decent again, as will Keane. Kerr with the Faroes and no one else i think? McCarthy struggling this time around and boring everyone with his co commentary. Not great really. And probably a sign we have not really hit upon the good managers on their way up.

Its international football, it's the graveyard of modern day football......

[seanfhear]

Its international football, it's the graveyard of modern day football......
And some old managers come to expire there , perhaps !

[Charlie Darwin]

Its interesting how few of our managers have gone on to do anything managerial wise after their stint with Ireland, apart form McCarthy first time round. Charlton never managed again, either did Stan or Trappatoni. Martin O'Neill got a gig briefly at Forest before getting the boot, will struggle to get anything decent again, as will Keane. Kerr with the Faroes and no one else i think? McCarthy struggling this time around and boring everyone with his co commentary. Not great really. And probably a sign we have not really hit upon the good managers on their way up.
Stan got the Darlington job after Ireland, no? Then again, maybe it's not worth mentioning!

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Not sure where to put this topic but I suppose it's a big concern for Kenny looking ahead.

It seems like a lot of our players have been benched of late, especially in the English premier league. There are a few injuries but just going on players that would be seen as starters. Randolph remains on the bench. Doherty seems to be swapping with Aurier in and out, Coleman injured. Duffy starting but struggling for Celtic, Egan and Stevens regulars. McCarthy still injured. Molumby not even making the bench. Hendrick dropped today, Hourihane benched for the last few games. Arter out, is he injured? Is Connolly injured? I don't see him in the Brighton squad today. McGoldrick is coming on from the bench. I think Robinson is on the bench too. Long bench, Brady bench.

Then there are other players like O'Shea dropped, Obafemi dropped from squad, McGuire dropped, Smallbone not making the squad. I might be missing that some are injured but things haven't been going well of late. We need some of these players getting back into their teams or making a breakthrough. It just seems like a really bad run of players getting dropped recently.

[Trequartista20]

Not sure where to put this topic but I suppose it's a big concern for Kenny looking ahead.

It seems like a lot of our players have been benched of late, especially in the English premier league. There are a few injuries but just going on players that would be seen as starters. Randolph remains on the bench. Doherty seems to be swapping with Aurier in and out, Coleman injured. Duffy starting but struggling for Celtic, Egan and Stevens regulars. McCarthy still injured. Molumby not even making the bench. Hendrick dropped today, Hourihane benched for the last few games. Arter out, is he injured? Is Connolly injured? I don't see him in the Brighton squad today. McGoldrick is coming on from the bench. I think Robinson is on the bench too. Long bench, Brady bench.

Then there are other players like O'Shea dropped, Obafemi dropped from squad, McGuire dropped, Smallbone not making the squad. I might be missing that some are injured but things haven't been going well of late. We need some of these players getting back into their teams or making a breakthrough. It just seems like a really bad run of players getting dropped recently.


For a start, Hendrick did start today. As did Doherty. And O'Shea and Smallbone are injured.

[pineapple stu]

Connolly was an unused sub last week and they've since signed Wellbeck, so that's not encouraging

It does mean at least that he drops out of my Fantasy team and Ward-Prowse (14 points) comes in, so every cloud and all that

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

For a start, Hendrick did start today. As did Doherty. And O'Shea and Smallbone are injured.

Oh I missed Hendrick! That's good. I noted Doherty. It still seems like a lot of players have been dropped though.

[pineapple stu]

Doherty was out for a couple of games. So some squad rotation going on alright.

[tetsujin1979]

provide a link with ESPN Argentina commentators saying that, or I'll delete your post
going forward, any mention of ESPN Argentina, without a link supporting the claim, will be deleted immediately.

[Razors left peg]

Connolly not making squad is concerning but I have a bit of a memory of him being left out like that last season for couple games and he came back in and did well. Sometimes young players need to be dropped, even happened to Greenwood recently at United. If he's still out of squad in a month I'd be more concerned

[Bielsa´s irish]

provide a link with ESPN Argentina commentators saying that, or I'll delete your post
going forward, any mention of ESPN Argentina, without a link supporting the claim, will be deleted immediately.

ok I wouldnt comment at all, how can i link a live broadcast, but I can assure you the truth. espn 2, ex espn plus argentina is broadcasting the premier league. The remarks are true, they named Maupay and Connolly, Pons and the other guy didnt realize he wasnt on the bench. Google "Bambino Pons", that guy is a human library of the premier league down here.

[tetsujin1979]

that's not my problem. provide proof for any mention of ESPN Argentina, or it'll be deleted without warning

[tetsujin1979]

From the press conference earlier: https://www.the42.ie/stephen-kenny-24-5256418-Nov2020/

“I can’t get fixated on the minutiae of World Cup seeding points”, said Kenny. “We just have to focus on playing well against England, against Wales after that quick Thursday/Sunday turnaround, and then the game against Bulgaria in Dublin on Wednesday.
He doesn't have to be fixated on the seeding points, but it's the kind of detail I want the manager to be conscious of. The result against England could be the difference between us being in the second seeds, or the third

[geysir]

True enough, it would have been better not to have the friendly considering the cut off date for FIFA seeeding but it has been arranged and SK just has to get on with it.
Lose the friendly, then I'd guess that a win v Bulgaria and a draw v Wales should be enough to be in 2nd pot for the WC qual draw.

[Kingdom]

From the press conference earlier: https://www.the42.ie/stephen-kenny-24-5256418-Nov2020/

He doesn't have to be fixated on the seeding points, but it's the kind of detail I want the manager to be conscious of. The result against England could be the difference between us being in the second seeds, or the third

To be fair, I would say he's aware of it, but it he starts down that road publically, he's hammering the FAI and setting his own players under undue pressure.
Others have said elsewhere the need for a game, and money, probably was too good to turn down, despite the obvious issues this specific game brings.

[weldoninhio]

All the talk of Kenny integrating young players, as if he's some Pied Piper of the U21s. He had 12 matches with them. He's had 2/3s of that with the seniors. I'm fairly sure I remember there was an agreement with Mick and Kenny that Mick wouldn't take any of his U21s unless there was an emergency. I doubt Mick came up with that. He should have been left get on with it. He would have brought through the young lads just as he had in his first stint. In my opinion, we'd have qualified for the Euros and would be in a lot better place than we are now.

[nigel-harps1954]

I would like to see Kenny do well. I'm no fan boy of his, just because he was in the League of Ireland, is not a reason for me to support him. He was in charge of Derry City when they were cheating with double contracts. But what I saw of him at Dundalk, taking over a side who hadn't a pot to p!ss in, with a group of unfancied players and some young talented potential. Sounds familiar.

What to take from his first set of games:

We're actually attempting to play football. It's not great, it's a bit sideways, but it's a start. After years of utter dirge, an embarrassment of an Irish side who got a handful of days out for the 'ole ole' brigade, I'm happy to at least see an attempt to pass the ball to a team-mate rather than a hopeful 40 yard hoof up the field.

We've got a chance to see many of the under-21 squad. There's a lot of hopes for about 8-10 players. If we can successfully blood 5 of them into regular senior internationals, that'll be a success. The likes of Idah, Molumby, Cullen, Connolly, O'Shea and Parrott look good. Kenny knows them, knows their games, and has a chance to help them push on going into March. They've got their taste of international football, so won't be overawed by a World Cup qualifer when it comes around.

We know who's not good enough. We've seen somewhere between 40-45 players in squads since September, from various levels of world football. Kenny will have seen them train, how they apply themselves, and how the handled a game situation.

We know who is also past their best and would be best put out to pasture. Who doesn't fit the system and who is best placed to take their place in March.

Kenny will now know we have several key issues;

- Randolph has been a great servant, but if he wants a goalkeeper comfortable with the ball to feet, he'd better hope Kelleher gets his loan in January, Bazunu continues his development at Rochdale, and Travers manages to break into the side at Bournemouth. Randolph will be 34 next summer, getting no younger, and we need one of the three to step up, sooner rather than later.

- Likewise, if he wants his team playing football, Duffy shouldn't be starting. Some important goals, some great games in an Ireland shirt, but he's not a footballer. O'Shea and Egan are looking like our two most comfortable options in that area right now. Kevin Long even looks a better option than Duffy with the ball to feet.

- There's a dearth of options in midfield, but he needs to quit persisting with Hourihane in there, who is tried, tested, and failed over and over again. Cullen, Byrne, Molumby, Knight, Hendrick and Browne are all better equipped to play possession football.

- The obvious issue of goals is worrying, but I won't be overly defeatest about it just yet considering the disruptions to the squad. We've clear young attacking talent in Connolly, Idah and Parrott, with Robinson they'll be our main attacking four going into March barring any injury issues. You'd hope Obafemi can come good, but I'd fear he'll slip down the leagues.


The persistence with 4-3-3 is what worries me. When it wasn't working, in any of the last few games, we didn't seem to have a plan B. Added to a refusal to make changes earlier in the game, and last night in particular, only adding two strikers in the 86th minute, would be my main criticism of Kenny.

March and next summer is where he'll be really judged. For now, the initial 8 games was to learn.

[passinginterest]

Pros;
* We can retain possession as well as anyone else in terms of similar level teams when we try to, we're not that technically deficient that it's impossible as previous managers have maintained
* A much larger numbers of players than might otherwise have been expected have had a chance to either start or play a part in the squad
* Kenny showed he could make a big decision by leaving Coleman out in his early selections to favour Doherty
* We're still not conceding a whole lot
* We're having more shots and creating more opportunities that previous regime

Cons;
* No attempts to alter formation at any stage of games, even if plan A is not producing results
* Reluctance to drop other senior players for player more suited to the game plan (probably a fear that dropping too many senior players would alienate the squad)
* Manager can't seem to lift the confidence of the team, they may not be fully buying in
* Hard to see goals coming unless one of Idah, Parrot, Connolly or Robinson really catch fire between now and the world cup qualifiers

[backstothewall]

. Positives: O’Shea (AKA the new Dunne), Molomby, Knight, Doherty, Idah, Long

Surely O'Shea is the new O'Shea. Particularly with Jimmy Dunne having the best claim to being the new Dunne.

We could be playing at the 2030 World Cup with a central defensive partnership of Dunne & O'Shea.

File this under thing's I'd love to see.

[tetsujin1979]

* We're having more shots and creating more opportunities that previous regime
We had zero shots on target against Bulgaria last night.

[pineapple stu]

He didn't mention anything about shots on target?

Hitting the bat certainly counts as an opportunity for example.

[passinginterest]

He didn't mention anything about shots on target?

Hitting the bat certainly counts as an opportunity for example.

Exactly, it's following on from the look at the stats between this nations league and the previous one. The issue is we're not scoring and part of that is not getting shots on target, but we are taking more shots in general and winning more corners, all of which could be considered as creating more chances.

Last night was poor though in fairness, 7 attempts and only 4 corners.

[tetsujin1979]

All the talk of Kenny integrating young players, as if he's some Pied Piper of the U21s. He had 12 matches with them. He's had 2/3s of that with the seniors. I'm fairly sure I remember there was an agreement with Mick and Kenny that Mick wouldn't take any of his U21s unless there was an emergency. I doubt Mick came up with that. He should have been left get on with it. He would have brought through the young lads just as he had in his first stint. In my opinion, we'd have qualified for the Euros and would be in a lot better place than we are now.
I've been thinking about this. Would we have qualified for the U21 Championships if Kenny had stayed on with them, and let Mick complete the play offs and Nations League games?
The two standout results of Kenny's time in charge were the come from behind wins against Sweden. In the other games against the better sides in the group, he drew with Italy and lost to Iceland. I'm not sure he would have done better than Crawford in the return games - maybe he wouldn't have lost to Iceland. If you look at his results against similar ranked opposition across his time in charge of the U21s, there's the results I've mentioned, two draws with Mexico (when we failed to score) and a 2-0 loss to Brazil in the Toulon Tournament, and we only scored in two of the five games we played there (4-1 V China and 1-0 V Bahrain).

[geysir]

He didn't mention anything about shots on target?

Hitting the bat certainly counts as an opportunity for example.
i would swat away any attempt to denigrate the superior value of striking the crossbat as apposed to to the puny stat of a shot on target easily saved by the goalie.

[pineapple stu]

Damn poxing stupid typos that actually mean something else! :mad:

[Stuttgart88]

Bloody bats. The bane of 2020 everywhere.

In reply to Tets, I think we’ve managed to botch two transitions!

[tetsujin1979]

He didn't mention anything about shots on target?

Hitting the bat certainly counts as an opportunity for example.


Exactly, it's following on from the look at the stats between this nations league and the previous one. The issue is we're not scoring and part of that is not getting shots on target, but we are taking more shots in general and winning more corners, all of which could be considered as creating more chances.

Last night was poor though in fairness, 7 attempts and only 4 corners.

Fair enough, it's still a shocking stat in a home game. According to sofascore, the last time we had zero shots on target in a game was Martin O'Neill's last game, the 0-0 draw away to Denmark and we only one shot in total in that game.

I'm not sure how to make a fair comparison between Kenny's time so far and Mick games in charge last year. Mick beat Bulgaria 3-1 in a friendly, Kenny drew 1-1 and 0-0 with the same team a year later.
On average Kenny's team are attempting, and completing, about 170 more passes per game, but we're averaging the same number of shots, and have less shots on target.

Watching the Bulgaria game last night, and also against Wales at the weekend, I did think that they were happy to let us pass the ball in our own half, because our midfield doens't have the players to retain possession when they get forward into the opposition half, so the ball was easy to regain.

[seanfhear]

Duffy and Randolf are not suited to the type of game Kenny is trying to play at the moment. If these two are going to be starters then Kenny has to take that in to account. We have other alternatives for Duffy but do we realistically have an alternative to Randolph ?

[pineapple stu]

Fair enough, it's still a shocking stat in a home game
It's a thoroughly depressing stat.

The main caveat for me is that was essentially an Ireland B team. Half of them weren't even in the original squad. It's hard to bring in a new style of play with that much chopping and changing. I'd like to think it explains why last night seemed to be a big step backwards

[John83]

Damn poxing stupid typos that actually mean something else! :mad:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Angry_Bat.JPG

[geysir]

Back to batting Kenny.
The vital Slovakia game was the big loss, however it went to the wire, virtually a toss of the coin and that despite the effect of the absurdity of 2 players being quarantined due to being 20cm closer than they should to a false positive FAI employee.

I have to put aside that I don't like 433 for the team, that we don't have the midfield selected or available to properly defend or retain possesion in a 433.
I don't have an overall impression of what Kenny is capable of because the only constant recently has been the disruptive factors.

Aspects I didn't appreciate, the decision not to adjust formation to play against England who are a distinct class above our UNL/ play off opponents.
Stubborness not to play Byrne, currently our only player who for better or worse "gets on the ball" and makes the pass happen.
Maybe I have a different tolerance for enduring poor form/results in a transition from crap to something better, but the focus has to be on the positives, the young players coming through and best team selected performing on the field.

[passinginterest]

Right, I'm looking for positives and turning to the stats again. So, which team in our group had:

Most attempts on goal
Most corners
Most crosses
Most possession
Most passes attempted and completed
Best pass accuracy

The possibly surprising answer to all of the above is Ireland. I think it emphasises the fact that we've been pretty unlucky not to have at least fluked a couple more goals and that our finishing was brutal and we didn't make the most of our set piece chances from corners. Probably taking on shots from the wrong areas and putting in too many hopeful crosses from the wrong areas.



Team

Goals

Attempts

On Target

Off Target

Blocked



Ireland

1

68

17

42

9



Wales

7

63

25

23

15



Finland

7

54

18

22

14



Bulgaria

2

49

12

21

16






Team

Cross Completion %

Attempted

Completed

Corners



Ireland

35

128

45

25



Wales

49

100

49

23



Finland

43

72

31

17



Bulgaria

37

106

39

22






Team

Passing Accuracy %

Attempted

Completed

Possession %



Ireland

85

3170

2699

53



Wales

85

3038

2609

51



Finland

84

2934

2472

47



Bulgaria

83

2922

2432

49




All stats from https://www.uefa.com/uefanationsleague/teams/

[John83]

That's an interesting analysis, passinginterest. It suggests that Kenny's system could surprise us if we just find one forward with a bit of form.

[paul_oshea]

Right, I'm looking for positives and turning to the stats again. So, which team in our group had:

Most attempts on goal
Most corners
Most crosses
Most possession
Most passes attempted and completed
Best pass accuracy

The possibly surprising answer to all of the above is Ireland. I think it emphasises the fact that we've been pretty unlucky not to have at least fluked a couple more goals and that our finishing was brutal and we didn't make the most of our set piece chances from corners. Probably taking on shots from the wrong areas and putting in too many hopeful crosses from the wrong areas.



Team

Goals

Attempts

On Target

Off Target

Blocked



Ireland

1

68

17

42

9



Wales

7

63

25

23

15



Finland

7

54

18

22

14



Bulgaria

2

49

12

21

16






Team

Cross Completion %

Attempted

Completed

Corners



Ireland

35

128

45

25



Wales

49

100

49

23



Finland

43

72

31

17



Bulgaria

37

106

39

22






Team

Passing Accuracy %

Attempted

Completed

Possession %



Ireland

85

3170

2699

53



Wales

85

3038

2609

51



Finland

84

2934

2472

47



Bulgaria

83

2922

2432

49




All stats from https://www.uefa.com/uefanationsleague/teams/

Sorry PI, how do you format in that way? Do you go to Advanced, cos tablular/space isn't recognised by the VBulletin Text editor

[paul_oshea]

That's an interesting analysis, passinginterest. It suggests that Kenny's system could surprise us if we just find one forward with a bit of form.

I think thats what we had been saying before any stats? That hes playing a system that relies on a finisher which we don't have - Collins being the best one we had to that effect? And so if hes playing a formation/system that relies on a player we don't have then its stutts adage of square pegs and round holes, or maybe round pegs and square holes, we adapt/change the system to suit the players we have in the best positions we have.

[tetsujin1979]

Right, I'm looking for positives and turning to the stats again. So, which team in our group had:

Most attempts on goal
Most corners
Most crosses
Most possession
Most passes attempted and completed
Best pass accuracy
<stats snipped out>

Good research there PI, think it proves that the team setup in the final third just isn't working. Only one in four(25%) of our shots were on target, slightly better than Bulgaria(24.4%) who scored one more than us, and a lot worse than Finland(33%) and Wales(39.6%)

[passinginterest]

Sorry PI, how do you format in that way? Do you go to Advanced, cos tablular/space isn't recognised by the VBulletin Text editor

I go advance and then the top left button on the ribbon A/A (Switch Editor to WISIWYG mode) and if you copy in tables then is seems to pick up the formatting.

[Eminence Grise]

I think thats what we had been saying before any stats? That hes playing a system that relies on a finisher which we don't have - Collins being the best one we had to that effect? And so if hes playing a formation/system that relies on a player we don't have then its stutts adage of square pegs and round holes, or maybe round pegs and square holes, we adapt/change the system to suit the players we have in the best positions we have.

Or he's banking on being able to settle into a front three of forwards permed from Connolly, Idah, Robinson, Parrott, backed up by Collins and Maguire, where there's better mobility and all-round threat, rather than relying on an isolated forward supported by wingers which is largely what he was forced into in the last three games.

[Stuttgart88]

Fair enough, it's still a shocking stat in a home game. According to sofascore, the last time we had zero shots on target in a game was Martin O'Neill's last game, the 0-0 draw away to Denmark and we only one shot in total in that game.

I'm not sure how to make a fair comparison between Kenny's time so far and Mick games in charge last year. Mick beat Bulgaria 3-1 in a friendly, Kenny drew 1-1 and 0-0 with the same team a year later.
On average Kenny's team are attempting, and completing, about 170 more passes per game, but we're averaging the same number of shots, and have less shots on target.

Watching the Bulgaria game last night, and also against Wales at the weekend, I did think that they were happy to let us pass the ball in our own half, because our midfield doens't have the players to retain possession when they get forward into the opposition half, so the ball was easy to regain.
I think you can make any argument out of any set of circumstances sometimes in football, but while I enjoyed the 3-1 win over Bulgaria last year it must be remembered that we turned what should have been an easy win into a 1-1 through a brain dead penalty concession, and we only scored two late goals to win it, both after 80 mins I think. So you could (badly!) argue that last year's win wasn't as convincing as the result suggested.

[Stuttgart88]

This is mainly in reply to Razor’s last post in the Bulgaria match thread. Someone said earlier that the goal rot set in before Kenny and it’s true really. We were pretty poor in every game against the “lesser” sides under Mick and we were beyond brutal in O’Neill’s last year, which was wasted imho.

We were better against Denmark twice under Mick though and we played with good intensity in both games, and also at home to the Swiss.

We may be going backwards but at the same time I think the top end of European football is getting even better. Italy seem to be back. So too Holland. Spain ruthlessly dismantled an in experienced German team. France are good and have lots of know-how. Portugal have a production line of talent that defies belief. England have forward and midfield options we can only drool over. Belgium keep marching on.

We are so far away from that level now. We are clinging on to tier 2 status and that’s fair. That’s not Kenny’s fault.

[passinginterest]

This sounds a bit ominous: https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/fai-launch-investigation-into-political-video-message-shown-to-ireland-players-ahead-of-england-clash-39767596.html

It's believed that some members of the FAI party, including players and at least one member of the coaching staff and a member of the non-football staff, were upset by what was described as overtly political content of a video shown to the players as a motivational tool ahead of the clash with England.

If there's people in the FAI with doubts about Kenny and they can show that there was anything that might be construed as leaning towards the sectarian end of "political" it could be a way to force Kenny to fall on his sword.

[Deckydee]

Didn't Big Jack play rebel songs on the bus back in the day.

[Trequartista20]

This sounds a bit ominous: https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/fai-launch-investigation-into-political-video-message-shown-to-ireland-players-ahead-of-england-clash-39767596.html


If there's people in the FAI with doubts about Kenny and they can show that there was anything that might be construed as leaning towards the sectarian end of "political" it could be a way to force Kenny to fall on his sword.

Intriguing. What kind of 'political' video?

It's also seems to be rather slyly suggested in that article that this might have something to do with Alan Kelly opting out of the last game.

Hopefully this matter can be dealt with sensibly.

[tetsujin1979]

Hmmm, Kenny did say he wanted to have an Irish band play to the team before the game. Wonder if this was part of it?

[Kingdom]

This sounds a bit ominous: https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/fai-launch-investigation-into-political-video-message-shown-to-ireland-players-ahead-of-england-clash-39767596.html


If there's people in the FAI with doubts about Kenny and they can show that there was anything that might be construed as leaning towards the sectarian end of "political" it could be a way to force Kenny to fall on his sword.

This is exactly my take on it.