Stephen Kenny

[Philly]

I've tried to bite my tongue this past week, which meant stopping myself from claiming some moral victory for Kenny after Portugal, to giving up all hope after the Azerbaijan game.

What a weird qualification campaign this has been. I do not think we have ever had a campaign be used to implement change like this before, and it is interesting to watch if a little frustrating at times.

My main takeaways on Kenny and his approach now are:

- Things are improving. We are playing better football, much more confident playing it out from the back, and generally building a confidence with the ball at our feet that Ireland have not had in a long time.
- What is not improving, and this is not really on Kenny, is our complete lack of a goalscoring threat. Despite the new, more progressive approach starting to show in our play, our CBs are still our most prominent threats.

If you look at the second half of the O'Neill era, and the whole McCarthy second coming, when we won it was usually by a goal, and when we drew against better opposition, it was usually low scoring. Most of our points depended on us either getting 1 goal and not conceding by playing mind-numbing conservative tactics against lower teams (Georgia, Gibraltar), or else defending very well against better teams and grabbing a goal.

Under Kenny, we have arguably improved how we do things. However, we have less attacking threat than ever, so we cannot bank of getting that one goal, and definitely not the two we need to overcome the likes of Azerbaijan if we concede one. The real disappointments of the Kenny era have been against lower teams, not against better teams.

O'Neill and McCathy had the likes of Walters and McGoldrick - not world beaters, but they had a record of scoring and were experienced at this level. However, Kenny does not have such a player to choose from right now.

I am meandering here, but to sum it up, I think the method is right with Kenny, but I am not sure he has the ingredients to make it work. He really needs one or two of Idah, Parrott and Connolly to come good and start scoring this season, or else it is hard to see this approach working. Without a way to score at least 2 a game against mediocre opponents, then McCarthys approach of not considering any and scoring one works best.

Whether Kenny succeeds and gets a shot is probably out of his hands now, and up to these young players progressing quickly enough for him to beat Luxembourg and Azerbaijan in autumn.

[paul_oshea]

What is required to be a coach of a professional outfit in rugby - certificate wise?

Work for AIB, Goodbodys, PWC, KPMG or Bank Of Ireland in some capacity.

[paul_oshea]

I've tried to bite my tongue this past week, which meant stopping myself from claiming some moral victory for Kenny after Portugal, to giving up all hope after the Azerbaijan game.

What a weird qualification campaign this has been. I do not think we have ever had a campaign be used to implement change like this before, and it is interesting to watch if a little frustrating at times.

My main takeaways on Kenny and his approach now are:

- Things are improving. We are playing better football, much more confident playing it out from the back, and generally building a confidence with the ball at our feet that Ireland have not had in a long time.
- What is not improving, and this is not really on Kenny, is our complete lack of a goalscoring threat. Despite the new, more progressive approach starting to show in our play, our CBs are still our most prominent threats.

If you look at the second half of the O'Neill era, and the whole McCarthy second coming, when we won it was usually by a goal, and when we drew against better opposition, it was usually low scoring. [i]Most of our points depended on us either getting 1 goal and not conceding by playing mind-numbing conservative tactics against lower teams[i] (Georgia, Gibraltar), or else defending very well against better teams and grabbing a goal.

Under Kenny, we have arguably improved how we do things. However, we have less attacking threat than ever, so we cannot bank of getting that one goal, and definitely not the two we need to overcome the likes of Azerbaijan if we concede one. The real disappointments of the Kenny era have been against lower teams, not against better teams.

O'Neill and McCathy had the likes of Walters and McGoldrick - not world beaters, but they had a record of scoring and were experienced at this level. However, Kenny does not have such a player to choose from right now.

I am meandering here, but to sum it up, I think the method is right with Kenny, but I am not sure he has the ingredients to make it work. He really needs one or two of Idah, Parrott and Connolly to come good and start scoring this season, or else it is hard to see this approach working. Without a way to score at least 2 a game against mediocre opponents, then McCarthys approach of not considering any and scoring one works best.

Whether Kenny succeeds and gets a shot is probably out of his hands now, and up to these young players progressing quickly enough for him to beat Luxembourg and Azerbaijan in autumn.

This is a great post and you've inverted the argument about why we possibly were so negative, because we had such an inability to score defending to ensure low scoring was the main motivation as opposed to conservative play because we were so porous. We can keep ball as long as we like but if we're not good enough to score the exercise is futile, as we're certainly not good enough to keep clean sheets. Food for thought there.

[pineapple stu]

What a weird qualification campaign this has been. I do not think we have ever had a campaign be used to implement change like this before, and it is interesting to watch if a little frustrating at times.
I think 1998 was similar. You look at the team for the first game of that campaign (away v Liechtenstain) and you have Given, Breen, Harte, O'Neill and Moore, all around 20/21 years old and all of whom had made their debuts since our last competitive game (the Anfield playoff against Holland)

That was a frustrating campaign (0-0 at home to both Iceland and Lithuania, struggles in Reykjavik and Vilnius, the infamous Skopje defeat), but there was still a tinge of excitement about the squad because of its youth. There's similar here, but with the added wild swings as you note, as we veer from being not remotely good enough to having turned the corner, back to being not remotely good enough, back to turning the corner again. 1998 wasn't quite so drastic.

Six years after that Liechtenstein game, we were back at a World Cup. We're starting from a lower base now (no Keane, Houghton, Quinn for example), and we still desperately need to solve the goalscoring problem, but you never know.

And of course we could just as easily throw it all away and lose 1-0 in Azerbaijan. I think the safest thing to say is we've never really had a week like last week.

[brine3]

I think 1998 was similar. You look at the team for the first game of that campaign (away v Liechtenstain) and you have Given, Breen, Harte, O'Neill and Moore, all around 20/21 years old and all of whom had made their debuts since our last competitive game (the Anfield playoff against Holland)

That was a frustrating campaign (0-0 at home to both Iceland and Lithuania, struggles in Reykjavik and Vilnius, the infamous Skopje defeat), but there was still a tinge of excitement about the squad because of its youth. There's similar here, but with the added wild swings as you note, as we veer from being not remotely good enough to having turned the corner, back to being not remotely good enough, back to turning the corner again. 1998 wasn't quite so drastic.

Six years after that Liechtenstein game, we were back at a World Cup. We're starting from a lower base now (no Keane, Houghton, Quinn for example), and we still desperately need to solve the goalscoring problem, but you never know.

And of course we could just as easily throw it all away and lose 1-0 in Azerbaijan. I think the safest thing to say is we've never really had a week like last week.

Although, we made it to the playoffs for France '98 (mostly thanks to being in a weak group) and were ten seconds away from automatic qualification for Euro 2000. But we were never threatened by the likes of Luxembourg or Azerbaijan. Of course, it can be argued that the minnows have come on a long way in the last 20 years.

[TonyD]

Although, we made it to the playoffs for France '98 (mostly thanks to being in a weak group) and were ten seconds away from automatic qualification for Euro 2000. But we were never threatened by the likes of Luxembourg or Azerbaijan. Of course, it can be argued that the minnows have come on a long way in the last 20 years.

Well, yes. None of these countries are getting 5/6 goal hammering anymore. Plus our quality of player has certainly declined in that time. Now some of the youngsters around are very promising, so I think things will improve, but it will take time.

[pineapple stu]

Although, we made it to the playoffs for France '98 (mostly thanks to being in a weak group) and were ten seconds away from automatic qualification for Euro 2000. But we were never threatened by the likes of Luxembourg or Azerbaijan. Of course, it can be argued that the minnows have come on a long way in the last 20 years.

Well, Iceland and Lithuania both drew in Dublin and both took the lead against us in the away games; they certainly put it up to us. They just weren't consistent enough to come top two.

It was a very weak group as you say - primarily because we were the second seeds, and we're third seeds this time. That's a big difference. If we'd had a Serbia-type team in the 98 group as well as Romania, things might have panned out a bit differently.

[paul_oshea]

A bit like say Yugoslavia? Or Croatia?

[pineapple stu]

Who...weren't in that group?

[Kingdom]

I think 1998 was similar. You look at the team for the first game of that campaign (away v Liechtenstain) and you have Given, Breen, Harte, O'Neill and Moore, all around 20/21 years old and all of whom had made their debuts since our last competitive game (the Anfield playoff against Holland)

That was a frustrating campaign (0-0 at home to both Iceland and Lithuania, struggles in Reykjavik and Vilnius, the infamous Skopje defeat), but there was still a tinge of excitement about the squad because of its youth. There's similar here, but with the added wild swings as you note, as we veer from being not remotely good enough to having turned the corner, back to being not remotely good enough, back to turning the corner again. 1998 wasn't quite so drastic.

Six years after that Liechtenstein game, we were back at a World Cup. We're starting from a lower base now (no Keane, Houghton, Quinn for example), and we still desperately need to solve the goalscoring problem, but you never know.

And of course we could just as easily throw it all away and lose 1-0 in Azerbaijan. I think the safest thing to say is we've never really had a week like last week.

Haven't considered it fully, but that could in time be a very good post to bookmark.
That's certainly the last real rebuilding phase. some subtle differences - the established members of the squad were all leaders in their own right - and the newbies were starters for their clubs (Sunderland Leeds, Birmingham and Norwich respectively right?) with the only coming off the bench with the match done and dusted. Splitting hairs perhaps.

That was a very competent Romanian team, with a lot of the 94 lads still around, and that showed as how they blitzed the rest of the group. Not as good as this Portugal side, but better (better's not the best word, more established perhaps) than Serbia. Nobody in this current group as bad as Liechtenstein, with Azerbaijan similar to Lithunaia then, and Luxembourg better than iceland.

[passinginterest]

In terms of the squad and the scale of the rebuilding, assuming the Wiki page is fairly accurate, there's been 51 players called up in the last 12 months.

That seems like a pretty incredible volume of players, covid obviously a contributing factor.

Age bracket wise -
11 - 30+ - Caps - 459 (avg 42)
11 - 27 to 29 - Caps - 272 (avg 25)
13 - 24 to 26 - Caps - 92 (avg 7)
10 - 21 to 23 - Caps - 35 (avg 3.5)
6 - under 21 - Caps - 33 (avg 5.5)

8 of those called up not capped at all oldest being McEneff at 26 and youngest Collins at 20.

Probably only Shane Long as an outfield player at 34 is unlikely to be involved in the next campaign. Randolph is also 34, next oldest are McClean and Coleman at 32.

There's only 4 players 25 or younger with 10 or more caps.

Duffy and Hendrick and Robbie Brady are the only players not yet 30 with more than 30 caps and they're all 29.

I think the lack of caps in the 24 to 26 group really shows the failure to do any succession planning in previous regimes.

Anyway, I've time to kill and though it might interest some. I think it speaks to the scale of the rebuilding and the lack of a shortcut out.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_national_football_team

[tetsujin1979]

Poll opened here: https://foot.ie/threads/269901-Stephen-Kenny-vote-of-confidence-Second-referendum

[tetsujin1979]

Compiled the passing stats from the three qualifiers here: https://twitter.com/irish_abroad/status/1435913083046842375

[paul_oshea]

Shane Duffy completed most passes over the 3 games? Where's Kingdom :D

What's the definition of three key passes? And where do you get these stats off is it you manually researching or an automated process?

[Diggs246]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0909/1245720-fai-supremo-hill-non-committal-on-kennys-future/

I wouldn't be confident if I was kenny

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0909/1245720-fai-supremo-hill-non-committal-on-kennys-future/

I wouldn't be confident if I was kenny

Honestly, I'm delighted to read that. Maybe some realism might be added to proceedings. It was less than a week ago that we drew with Azerbaijan at home yet the reaction from a lot in the media and some supporters is as if we're after achieving some major breakthrough. We're in a battle for bottom of the table, we can't win a competitive game, our seeding is dropping like a stone. Qualifying for tournaments brings in desperately needed resources. This manager has failed to qualify for 2 tournaments already and is making it so much more difficult for the next manager to qualify for a tournament. The FAI can't let his reign continue unabated with the disastrous results he's delivering. If he fails to beat Azerbaijan and Luxembourg again, he'll be getting the chop.

[DeLorean]

Sounds like a fairly rational approach, one that the RTÉ panel were unanimous on the other night, which is basically to assess the situation at the end of the campaign.

You'd imagine that means he needs to win a game or two. Four points could possibly be enough, depending on the way they come about.

Draw in Azer, narrow defeat to Portugal and a win in Lux to end on a positive note - relatively speaking! To be reasonably safe he'll need six though.

[SkStu]

Yep. No different to what most of us think at this point. The outliers are the ones that want him to stay on no matter what or get sacked now/next game (knife edge) per our poll. :)

[tetsujin1979]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0909/1245720-fai-supremo-hill-non-committal-on-kennys-future/

I wouldn't be confident if I was kenny

Alternative headline - "employer confirms employee continues to be employed"

[CraftyToePoke]

The way the polls are running, Hill is probably afraid he'll be out of a job himself before Kenny if he doesn't pick his words :)


#allaboardtheirrationalunwaveringrabidsupportofSK is trending in Termonbarry tonight.

[Diggs246]

Alternative headline - "employer confirms employee continues to be employed"

FAI boss Hill gives Stephen Kenny little public assurance over the security of his position (the42.ie) (https://www.the42.ie/stephen-kenny-48-5545348-Sep2021/)

Its hard to know, what Hill is saying here!

[paul_oshea]

Alternative headline - "employer confirms employee continues to be employed"

If there's nothing to be said, then nothing is said. If there's support required then that's not support. If it's positive then it's positive speak. I'd be more worried than I thought I'd be if I were Kenny

There's no point in this stage in the campaign to get rid of him now before the last set of fixtures. And I guess those fixtures become even more important for him now. He needs a minimum 7 points to stay on by the sounds of that. It's sensible to wait now and retrospectively look back over the whole campaign and nations league /euro2020 playoff and judge as a whole.

[passinginterest]

There's noting in what Hill has said at all. Employee is subject to regular performance reviews and these will contribute to decision on whether to extend contract or not. I'm not sure what else he can say? It's widely known Kenny's contract is up in July, he's hardly going to commit to renewing it or start waxing lyrical about the superb results so far. There's 10 people on the board and no different to the public and every other forum there's probably at least a couple who'd happily see Kenny gone, while the majority are in the lets see how the remaining games go camp.

[Diggs246]

There's noting in what Hill has said at all. Employee is subject to regular performance reviews and these will contribute to decision on whether to extend contract or not. I'm not sure what else he can say? It's widely known Kenny's contract is up in July, he's hardly going to commit to renewing it or start waxing lyrical about the superb results so far. There's 10 people on the board and no different to the public and every other forum there's probably at least a couple who'd happily see Kenny gone, while the majority are in the lets see how the remaining games go camp.

I would say your right, my guess is any dropped points v Azerbaijan or Lux and its goodnight irene ( unless we beat Portugal)

[paul_oshea]

Interesting different take on it, perhaps that's why hill sounded the way he did. Perhaps Kenny had done a solo run

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40600472.html

[DCWA]

Interesting different take on it, perhaps that's why hill sounded the way he did. Perhaps Kenny had done a solo run

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40600472.html

Commercial partners were surely aware of this. The entire footballing nation was.

There was never a likelihood of making Qatar and everyone I know have never seeiously fathomed us making there, most willingly writing it off before it even began.

There hasn’t been many things about the Ireland camp that have been clear for a while now but one of that has been is that we were looking beyond 2022.

[pineapple stu]

Kind of sad if sponsors' unrealistic corporate visions trump a genuine squad rebuilding project that needs to happen to be honest.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Commercial partners were surely aware of this. The entire footballing nation was.

There was never a likelihood of making Qatar and everyone I know have never seeiously fathomed us making there, most willingly writing it off before it even began.

There hasn’t been many things about the Ireland camp that have been clear for a while now but one of that has been is that we were looking beyond 2022.

Who was looking beyond 2022? Where was it said that we're writing off an entire campaign? This is revisionist bullsh1t. Kenny was picking what he thought was the strongest squad and side available to him. Look at the squad picked for the first two games. Things have only changed since then because we lost to Luxembourg and were effectively knocked out of contention after 2 games. Then the Kenny narrative was all about building a side for 2024.

I'd say not many would have said we were going to qualify for the World Cup but why wouldn't we be able to give it a good go? For the last World Cup qualifying we came second only 2 points behind Serbia and ahead of Wales and Austria, then had a disastrous play off. For the Euros we almost qualified from a group with Switzerland and Denmark, teams who got to the quarter and semi finals at the Euros and then Kenny got us knocked out by Slovakia. Serbia didn't make the euros and Portugal only got to the 2nd round.

We should be giving this group a good rattle. With the current manager driving our rankings backwards, the next groups won't get an easier. Are we just going to give up before we begin because some teams look scary? The narrative being peddled by Kenny and his backers is pathetic and I hope the FAI don't buy into the nonsense.

[passinginterest]

I think there's a lot of reaching here to try and make a story out of nothing. Of course it was never a discussion with the CEO or anyone else to say we're not going to try qualify for Qatar. That's not what's happened either. The team and manager have tried to win every game, that's been clear. The manager has made some selections that may have come with some risk of lesser performances in the short term, but that's any managers prerogative, he's putting his own position on the line in the process. If any commercial sponsor entered a deal on the expectation that the team would be qualifying for the world cup then they should be asking serious questions about their own judgement. If they're having doubts about the public support for the manager making the selection choices he has, then they should probably have a look at the second half of the Serbia game and the crowd response to the performance of Bazunu and the other youngsters.

[passinginterest]

In terms of the squad and the scale of the rebuilding, assuming the Wiki page is fairly accurate, there's been 51 players called up in the last 12 months.

That seems like a pretty incredible volume of players, covid obviously a contributing factor.

Age bracket wise -
11 - 30+ - Caps - 459 (avg 42)
11 - 27 to 29 - Caps - 272 (avg 25)
13 - 24 to 26 - Caps - 92 (avg 7)
10 - 21 to 23 - Caps - 35 (avg 3.5)
6 - under 21 - Caps - 33 (avg 5.5)


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_national_football_team

Just looking at this again and tweaking the age brackets it's even more stark. If you use players age 29 and up for the first category there's 16 of them with 666 caps between them. All have more than 10 caps and only 4 have less then 20 (Collins 13, Horgan 16, Kevin Long 17 and Arter 18). There's not too many nailed on starters left for one reason or another but the ones that are probably strongest placed now are Coleman at 32 with 61 caps, Stevens at 31 with 21 caps, Doherty at 29 with 23 caps and arguably Hendrick at 29 with 64 caps. The fact that Stevens and Doherty have such a relatively low number of caps again serves to show how slow we've been in introducing younger players in the past.

If you make 24-28 the next category, where you'd be hoping to see some key players becoming the experienced leaders, there's 19 player, 3 are uncapped (McEneff, Talbot, Szmodics). There's only 157 caps between the other 16. There's 6 with more than 10 caps (Christie 28, O'Dowda 23, Robinson 20, Egan 17, Cullen 12, Maguire 12). Only Robinson Egan and Cullen look like they have a future as high value squad players. The rest don't seem to offer much hope, of them Ogbene with 1, McGrath with 3, Byrne with 4 and Manning with 4 may be the only ones who have the potential to offer much in the future. That's a very worrying lack of quality and it's the biggest problem area for the squad. Probably only Robinson, Egan and Cullen look like certain starters.

The leaves 23 and under where we have another 16 players, 5 of whom have not been capped, and the other 11 already have 68 caps between them. The uncapped are Coventry, Mandroiu, Taylor, Scales and Colllins. Coventry and Collins probably the most likely of those to be capped in the near future, I'd forgotten about Taylor and he could potentially offer something, as could Scales if the Celtic move works out. The other 11 are the great hopes I suppose and the caps they're gaining at this stage can surely only aid them in their development; Molumby 12, Idah 10, O'Shea 10, Connolly 8, Bazunu 7, Knight 7, Parrott 7, Travers 3, Omobamidele 2, Kelleher 1, O'Connor 1. The fact that 3 are keepers limits the impact they can make to an extent too. Idah, O'Shea, Knight, Bazunu and Omobamidele, look like the ones who are almost nailed on starters at this stage.

With all the options and the caps, the midfield still looks like the biggest conundrum, closely followed by a reliable goal scorer in any of the groups.

[passinginterest]

Full List by age and caps for anyone curious.



Age
Caps


19
16


Andrew Omobamidele
2


Gavin Bazunu
7


Troy Parrott
7


20
17


Adam Idah
10


Jason Knight
7


Nathan Collins
0


21
9


Aaron Connolly
8


Conor Coventry
0


Lee O'Connor
1


22
26


Caoimhín Kelleher
1


Danny Mandroiu
0


Dara O'Shea
10


Jayson Molumby
12


Mark Travers
3


23
0


Jack Taylor
0


Liam Scales
0


24
4


Chiedozie Ogbene
1


James Talbot
0


Jamie McGrath
3


25
29


Jack Byrne
4


Josh Cullen
12


Kieran O'Hara
2


Ronan Curtis
7


Ryan Manning
4


Sammie Szmodics
0


26
59


Aaron McEneff
0


Alan Browne
16


Callum O'Dowda
23


Callum Robinson
20


27
17


Darragh Lenihan
2


Graham Burke
3


Sean Maguire
12


28
48


Cyrus Christie
28


Derrick Williams
3


John Egan
17


29
207


Daryl Horgan
16


Jeff Hendrick
64


Matt Doherty
23


Robbie Brady
57


Shane Duffy (vice-captain)
47


30
83


Conor Hourihane
28


James Collins
13


James McCarthy
42


31
92


Ciaran Clark
36


Enda Stevens
21


Harry Arter
18


Kevin Long
17


32
146


James McClean
85


Séamus Coleman (captain)
61


34
138


Darren Randolph
50


Shane Long
88


Grand Total
891

[paul_oshea]

All fairly valid but it's not necessarily a case of players not being called up young a few of our older generation came the less travelled more laborious LOI route and so reaching their peaks at a much later stage in their careers. I'm sure we had a discussion a few years back about players saying he's still young at 23/24 and that was something some disagreed with. England are a good example of that they've a lot of players hitting their peak younger and staying at it for longer. I don't agree with the 27-32 age group as for international football that's far too short a window and a couple of tournaments.

[DCWA]

Who was looking beyond 2022? Where was it said that we're writing off an entire campaign? This is revisionist bullsh1t. .

It is not revisionist bullsh!t whatsoever I have not claimed to speak for the wider Irish support I have simply said that myself, and some others who I happen to speak to had generally written off Qatar 2022 as a target because of the massive rebuilding job. If we qualified then bonus perhaps but even then it the worst world cup in history so again speaking for myself I wasn’t that bothered anyway. That does not mean we shouldn’t have expected better results in qualifying than what has materialised but I can assure that is not revisionist bullsh!t as you dramatically jumped to label it.

[Bielsa´s irish]

Wasnt a good draw.. ireland needed a 6 team group. Better against the croats danes or the dutch groups

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

It is not revisionist bullsh!t whatsoever I have not claimed to speak for the wider Irish support I have simply said that myself, and some others who I happen to speak to had generally written off Qatar 2022 as a target because of the massive rebuilding job. If we qualified then bonus perhaps but even then it the worst world cup in history so again speaking for myself I wasn’t that bothered anyway. That does not mean we shouldn’t have expected better results in qualifying than what has materialised but I can assure that is not revisionist bullsh!t as you dramatically jumped to label it.

The only thing being jumped on is this change in the narrative Kenny and his supporters have decided to embrace. There was no talk of building for 2024 prior to losing to Luxembourg. He was picking what he thought was the strongest squad possible.

What was the nation's league all about? That's where he got the chance to build. You don't use a World cup qualifying campaign to build. Besides, the whole talk of rebuilding is more nonsense. We weren't amazing but we were competing with Switzerland and Denmark, we weren't minnows or at that level. Kenny has dragged us down to that level.

[Olé Olé]

The only thing being jumped on is this change in the narrative Kenny and his supporters have decided to embrace. There was no talk of building for 2024 prior to losing to Luxembourg. He was picking what he thought was the strongest squad possible.

What was the nation's league all about? That's where he got the chance to build. You don't use a World cup qualifying campaign to build. Besides, the whole talk of rebuilding is more nonsense. We weren't amazing but we were competing with Switzerland and Denmark, we weren't minnows or at that level. Kenny has dragged us down to that level.
But aren't we "competing with" Serbia and Portugal now as much as we were Denmark and Switzerland? It's hard to establish "that level" you think we are on when you combine Serbia and Portugal with Azerbaijan and Luxembourg, yes. Hard for anyone.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

But aren't we "competing with" Serbia and Portugal now as much as we were Denmark and Switzerland? It's hard to establish "that level" you think we are on when you combine Serbia and Portugal with Azerbaijan and Luxembourg, yes. Hard for anyone.

How many points are we behind Serbia and Portugal? That answers your question.

[EalingGreen]

I don't think you can compare rugby really. Rugby isn't really a global game, and the IRFU do have money whereas the FAI are quite poor relatively speaking.

The IRFU aren't in danger of losing a coach to London Scottish or to some Chinese team.
I'll say!

The current Ireland Head Coach, Farrell, is English, having succeeded a South African, Schmidt. And of the Provinces, only Leinster have an Irish HC (others are English, Scots and S.African).

And this is nothing particularly new:
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/eddie-welcome-to-the-list-of-the-irish-coaching-damned-1.964192

I suspect that since Irish rugby has the money to buy in Head Coaches from abroad, it possibly doesn't have to worry so much about developing its own? Or at least giving them opportunities at top teams?

Whereas the FAI no longer has the money for top foreign imports (for now, at least), nor does its own domestic set-up appear esp conducive to developing managers, just like the IFA.

Yet there's an irony in that the IFA got hugely lucky in appointing Michael O'Neill after he impressed at Shams, while I am cautiously optimistic for his successor, Baraclough, who had success at Sligo.

[Diggs246]

I'll say!

The current Ireland Head Coach, Farrell, is English, having succeeded a South African, Schmidt. And of the Provinces, only Leinster have an Irish HC (others are English, Scots and S.African).

And this is nothing particularly new:
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/eddie-welcome-to-the-list-of-the-irish-coaching-damned-1.964192

I suspect that since Irish rugby has the money to buy in Head Coaches from abroad, it possibly doesn't have to worry so much about developing its own? Or at least giving them opportunities at top teams?

Whereas the FAI no longer has the money for top foreign imports (for now, at least), nor does its own domestic set-up appear esp conducive to developing managers, just like the IFA.

Yet there's an irony in that the IFA got hugely lucky in appointing Michael O'Neill after he impressed at Shams, while I am cautiously optimistic for his successor, Baraclough, who had success at Sligo.

Only my wife could hazard a worse guess re Joe Schmidt's nationality. He isn't south African mate

[EalingGreen]

Only my wife could hazard a worse guess re Joe Schmidt's nationality. He isn't south African mate
Yep, a Kiwi - dunno why I said S African, though it doesn't vitiate my general point.

P.S. Say hello to your missus for me.

[tetsujin1979]

was a little surprised to read this in an interview with Jamie McGrath: https://www.the42.ie/jamie-mcgrath-3-5565802-Oct2021/

McGrath thought he knew Kenny’s rhythms and style at Dundalk, but his selection from the start against Portugal came as a surprise: he was told only a couple of hours before kick-off.
“He rang me a week or two before the camp, saying, ‘I’m bringing you in to play, you’re not just coming to make up the numbers.’
“So I didn’t really know what way to take that. Obviously, to get told an hour before kick-off was such an adrenaline buzz. I just had to process it and get my touch right in the warm-up and go from there.

[seanfhear]

was a little surprised to read this in an interview with Jamie McGrath: https://www.the42.ie/jamie-mcgrath-3-5565802-Oct2021/
A touch of the Martin O’ Neill’s ! !

[OwlsFan]

It is not revisionist bullsh!t whatsoever I have not claimed to speak for the wider Irish support I have simply said that myself, and some others who I happen to speak to had generally written off Qatar 2022 as a target because of the massive rebuilding job. If we qualified then bonus perhaps but even then it the worst world cup in history so again speaking for myself I wasn’t that bothered anyway. That does not mean we shouldn’t have expected better results in qualifying than what has materialised but I can assure that is not revisionist bullsh!t as you dramatically jumped to label it.

I'd never write off a WC Qualifying campaign as there are usually at most 20 in a whole lifetime and some, like me, who are getting older have much fewer left. League managers seldom get time to rebuild so why should an international manager ? What I don't like about Kenny is that he has poured scorn on everything that has gone before. William Butler Yeats said "Tread softly because you tread on my dreams". Rather than criticising what went before, I would have preferred him to say "this is how I want us to play" FULL STOP). It was interesting though that last night that there were very few attempts to play directly from a kick out which has put us in trouble on a number of occasions. Our tempo was much better. Trying to play like Manchester City won't work and perhaps he now realises that. I have seen that with Darren Moore at Sheffield Wednesday. That too usually ends in disaster. There is a place between the long ball and the play out from goal keeper 100% of the time. There are many ways to skin a cat (sorry puss). Hopefully Kenny may now realise that.

[Supreme feet]

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-legends-should-not-interpret-stephen-kennys-philosophy-as-a-slight-on-them-5570450-Oct2021/

Thought this was reasonable.

We don't have big, powerful centre-forwards like Quinn/Cascarino or Walters/Murphy to default to an effective direct game. Idah and Parrott are big lads, but not old-school 1980s-style centre-forwards. Collins is effectively another Conor Sammon.

I'm all for a direct game where it can be effective (I was a big advocate of Trap between 2008 and 2011) but it's redundant for us now. Long passes, yes - we saw a few yesterday. Not aimless hoofs for an isolated centre-forward to try to chase his own flick-ons.

[seanfhear]

I'd never write off a WC Qualifying campaign as there are usually at most 20 in a whole lifetime and some, like me, who are getting older have much fewer left. League managers seldom get time to rebuild so why should an international manager ? What I don't like about Kenny is that he has poured scorn on everything that has gone before. William Butler Yeats said "Tread softly because you tread on my dreams". Rather than criticising what went before, I would have preferred him to say "this is how I want us to play" FULL STOP). It was interesting though that last night that there were very few attempts to play directly from a kick out which has put us in trouble on a number of occasions. Our tempo was much better. Trying to play like Manchester City won't work and perhaps he now realises that. I have seen that with Darren Moore at Sheffield Wednesday. That too usually ends in disaster. There is a place between the long ball and the play out from goal keeper 100% of the time. There are many ways to skin a cat (sorry puss). Hopefully Kenny may now realise that.Erwin Schrodinger's Football = = Keep them guessing ! !

[paul_oshea]

Not sure where the best place for this is, but it's a good article shows we've morphed into something fairly different from what we started with under Kenny and though admitting he'd never used 3 at the back before he has now done it. Also questions the influence of Barry and whether or not the 1 in 7 is a subtle realisation/admittance of shift from policy. Either way we're clearly playing much differently to how we were at the start when some "greenshoots" were mentioned.

https://www.the42.ie/stephen-kenny-style-of-play-5570889-Oct2021/

[passinginterest]

It's a well put together article alright. I think the hiring of Barry and the shift in style shows Kenny is pragmatic and hasn't let himself be tied down to idealism. I wouldn't rule out the 4-3-3 making a return at times, as well as playing it short more often, but the current shift is starting to get some the results and confidence that are needed to play the more idealistic way, if that makes sense. Even with the return of the more direct approach, Bazunu's ability to deliver what's actually a long direct pass, rather than a punt upfield is critical to the effectiveness. Even the more hurried clearances seem to be directed into slightly better areas a lot of the time, although I think there's still work to be done there. We still look vulnerable in the middle, Cullen has improved things, but we're crying out for another enforcer type to dominate things a bit more.

[Olé Olé]

Good article. In terms of the players, this paragraph captures some important points and I agree on all fronts but believe that Idah needs to prove again why he belongs in the company he's in with:
"Whereas Bazunu, Omoamidele, O’Shea, Knight and Idah are holding their own, Molumby, Parrott, and Connolly have struggled somewhat. He has, however, coaxed some of the best international performances we’ve seen from Hendrick, Duffy, and McClean since Euro 2016, while also becoming the first Irish manager to successfully integrate Seamus Coleman and Matt Doherty into the same team, a trick we have previously been told simply could not be done. "

I was listening to Kenny Cunningham yesterday who made the point that we look fairly content now with our back 6 which I think is accurate. We have good starters and good cover and additional options- I count 13 in total which is positive and all are of a standard that is sufficient for this level:
Bazunu/Kelleher/Travers
Doherty/Coleman O'Shea/Omobamidele Duffy Egan/Collins McClean/Stevens/Manning

He made the point that the blend in midfield and up front is where we have work to do, which is obvious. Cullen and Hendrick are in possession for me. I reckon Knight is the man to come. I believe he can play beside or in front of that pair. McGrath might have that capacity too. That pair can offer us very good flexibility. They play much more narrow than Ogbene but he's a compelling option too but I won't incorporate him into the below combos to make things easier:

We could have something like:
Hendrick Cullen
McGrath Knight
Robinson

or:
Hendrick Cullen Knight
Robinson Parrott/Idah

or:
Hendrick Cullen
Knight/McGrath Robinson
Parrott/Idah

Robinson is another sure starter for me. I'm going to be intrigued to see how Kenny uses Parrott and Ogbene. It says a lot that they are at League One level but are both well ahead of Aaron Connolly- rightly so in my view, even though I think he could have a short, medium and long term future in this side.

[JR89]

It's a well put together article alright. I think the hiring of Barry and the shift in style shows Kenny is pragmatic and hasn't let himself be tied down to idealism. I wouldn't rule out the 4-3-3 making a return at times, as well as playing it short more often, but the current shift is starting to get some the results and confidence that are needed to play the more idealistic way, if that makes sense. Even with the return of the more direct approach, Bazunu's ability to deliver what's actually a long direct pass, rather than a punt upfield is critical to the effectiveness. Even the more hurried clearances seem to be directed into slightly better areas a lot of the time, although I think there's still work to be done there. We still look vulnerable in the middle, Cullen has improved things, but we're crying out for another enforcer type to dominate things a bit more.

Duff walking away has probably been the best thing ever to happen to Kenny because he wouldn't have picked up Anthony Barry whose had a big impact on the squad. You can see that in the formation we play is similar to Chelsea and the set piece goal back in March against Qatar was straight from his play book.

I wouldn't be surprised to see us try out four at the back again next year as we should have a few friendlies either side of the nation's league. Feel it's gonna be more 4-2-3-1 than a 4-3-3 though. We don't have the holding midfielder who can anchor midfielder as a single pivot and even struggle for a decent double pivot. Cullen has gotten better and plays well in there but we need to find a better partner in midfield for him than Hendrick whose warming the bench at Newcastle and will probably be relegated to the reserves once they bring in a decent manager.

[JR89]

We could have something like:
Hendrick Cullen
McGrath Knight
Robinson

or:
Hendrick Cullen Knight
Robinson Parrott/Idah

or:
Hendrick Cullen
Knight/McGrath Robinson
Parrott/Idah

Robinson is another sure starter for me. I'm going to be intrigued to see how Kenny uses Parrott and Ogbene. It says a lot that they are at League One level but are both well ahead of Aaron Connolly- rightly so in my view, even though I think he could have a short, medium and long term future in this side.

Feel like the third option with Robinson and McGrath behind Idah is probably our best option. Against Hungary Knight started out in a midfield three like option two but pushes up to pressure the oppositions and makes it a 3-4-2-1 and has the athleticism that McGrath wouldn't have to be more box to box. Browne has done similar and Kenny seems to rate him.

I'd like to see Parrott play the role that Idah has been playing tomorrow night. We shouldn't be going as direct at home on a better pitch. Should hopefully see more ball into feet than Bazunu picking out Idah. He's playing that link up role at MK Dons week in week out whereas Idah isn't game time.