Stephen Kenny

[Razors left peg]

Er, Kane was born in July 1993. His last loan at Leicester ended when he was 20. The following season, 2013/14, he couldn't get into the Spurs team due to their having just signed Roberto Soldado, a Spanish international who had cost a club record £26m. Kane eventually got to play the last 10 PL games, scoring 3 goals.
The following season, when he was 22, Kane scored 21 goals in 31 PL games, plus another 10 in 17 Cup and European games.

I know nothing about Idah, and have nothing against him, but he's a long way short of Kane at a comparable age, a helluva long way.

Grand, Kane was poor example. My general point was not all top players were instantly good. Drogba and Lewandowski to a certain extent were prob better examples.... and before people jump on me I'm not saying he's them, but he could be a very good player yet

[Diggs246]

I agree with you here. Liam Brady said that at weekend too and I was so annoyed about it. If the players in our squad were late 20s to early 30s I'd be worried. I fully believe a lot of our players will become very good, but they were pushed in collectively too young together because we had to replace the like of the team you listed

It's arguably the worse midfield, but that's it. All the other departments aren't that bad actually. If you just look at Ferguson and obefemi.
( Although they do need to be picked first !).
They are better then any strike unit post Robbie Keane.

[EalingGreen]

They probably would have, eventually. But had been two months since Allardyce had been appointed, after Hodgson had resigned a month before that. The FA would have struggled to attract anyone in the short term when every candidate for the job knew they were second choice, at best, behind Sam.Aye, just like Jack Charlton was second choice after Bob Paisley.

As I say, £5m a year would have attracted plenty of names, had the FA advertised.


nobody is saying he was plucked from nowhere, he was the England U21 manager. I'm not sure if it qualifies as an "emergency", but Allardyce had resigned on 27th September, the FA had to appoint someone before their two qualifiers in October, so Southgate was given the job on a caretaker basis until the end of the year. It was the best solution at the time, and barely relevant to this discussionWhatever the circumstances of his appointment, Southgate's credentials for the job were rather more impressive than those of Kenny respectively (no offence to him) i.e. distinguished playing career, club and England, a short spell managing in the EPL and a long (and successful) spell managing the U-21's.

And even despite that, he was still only given the post on a caretaker basis, as you say, until he had proved himself.

While Kenny was hardly an outrageous choice in the circumstances, he was still up against a rather smaller field of alternatives, and has since struggled rather more than Southgate (understatement).

Meaning comparisons between the two don't really stand up (imo). As I said earlier, I would say Baraclough/NI is rather more relevant to Kenny/ROI's case.

[Stuttgart88]

You can tell Ireland are in a rut. Ealing Green has come back :)

[Fixer82]

That’s overall a better than we have now.
Very little experience on pitch against Greece.

Brady would bring that experience.
Missed Coleman big time.

Nobody to put a foot on ball and keep ball for a duration. Missing a lot of composure

[Razors left peg]

Whether previous squads were better or worse than what we have now is debatable, but my point is that I would rather the squad now to Micks 2nd stint because I know they will improve as they age and we have the possibility of becoming very good if some reach their potential. There was a few years there that it was painful, we had the likes of Cyrus Christie in midfield, attendances were down at home and there just seemed to be little future.

Whether we think Kenny is right man or not I think most of us agree that we at least have hope with the current squad and more to come in.

EDIT: IF there is a debate about whether this is our worst ever squad or not, we have a bit of a cheek to be upset at losing to Greece away. IF it is our worst every squad there should be no debate that finishing 3rd behind France and Holland would be a very good result by the manager.

[EalingGreen]

You can tell Ireland are in a rut. Ealing Green has come back :)Or, you can tell that the domestic season is over, but international football is back... :)

[geysir]

I for one appreciate EalingGreen's return and welcome the abundance of his no-nonsense knowitall opinions about all things FAI, managers and even offers opinions about players who he admits knowing nothing about :)

[osarusan]

EDIT: IF there is a debate about whether this is our worst ever squad or not, we have a bit of a cheek to be upset at losing to Greece away.
That's a bit of a strawman representation of the criticism I've seen.

I've seen very very few criticising the simple fact that we were defeated, but many more criticising the manner of the defeat.

We were utterly anaemic and rudderless all night, and I didn't think there was a single sign that were were making any progress in whatever direction the manager wants to take us in.

There's no 'cheek' in being disappointed with that.

[geysir]

There was a pre game RTE TO'D pre-match interview with Stephen K where Tony asked him if he was looking forward to the game. Before answering hesitatingly in the positive, Stephen touched his nose. I suppose most of us would have touched our noses before answering to express deep anxiety about the upcoming encounter.
He looked scared sh'itless.

[Stuttgart88]

Hard to disagree with Malachy Clerkin in today’s Irish Times (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2023/06/19/stephen-kenny-has-depleted-his-benefit-of-the-doubt-reserves-with-fans/):

But it’s hard not to arrive at the conclusion that something was broken in Athens last Friday. It wasn’t the defeat – God knows Ireland have had defeats before under Kenny. It wasn’t even just the performance either. It was the fact that Kenny got schooled by his opposite number, Gus Poyet. He was comprehensively outcoached in the full view of everyone.

The thing about losing the benefit of the doubt is that even the good you do gets questioned. Kenny changed things around at the break, bringing on Johnston for Collins and reconfiguring to a 4-3-3. And it worked – Johnston was terrific in the 45 minutes he spent on the pitch, scoring the first goal and constantly beating Gibraltar defenders to make space and create danger. By any cold analysis, it was the winning of the game.
But the stink of the Greece game hangs in the air still. And so instead of being hailed as having pulled off a managerial masterstroke with his in-game substitution, Kenny has to answer the question of why Johnston wasn’t in the team from the start. This game obviously needed a dribbler – everyone could see it. Why couldn’t the Ireland manager?

Something has shifted. It’s going to be so, so hard for Kenny to shift it back.

[ifk101]

Whatever the circumstances of his appointment, Southgate's credentials for the job were rather more impressive than those of Kenny respectively (no offence to him) i.e. distinguished playing career, club and England, a short spell managing in the EPL and a long (and successful) spell managing the U-21's.

And even despite that, he was still only given the post on a caretaker basis, as you say, until he had proved himself.

Oh dear.

Here’s a timeline of Southgate’s managerial credentials (what he did as a player (did he ever win anything?) is irrelevant. 1. Relegation with Boro. 2. Sacked by Boro. 3. Unemployed for 4 years. 4. Appointed U21 manager. 5. Finished last in England’s U21 Euro finals group, the highlight of three (long and successful?) years in charge.

And despite the above "he was still only given the England post on a caretaker basis". Madness. :-)

Let’s not ignore the circumstances of his appointment, eh? His appointment was a convenience to the circumstances as Tets has correctly pointed out to you.

Kenny hasn’t worked out for us, but a change of direction was needed, and he had the managerial merits to warrant a punt. He won everything in LOI football multiple times, had relative success with LOI teams in Europe, did well with the U21s, and knew the players to make a needed generational change at senior level. In hindsight, maybe we should have gone with another manager who knows what a bus looks like, how to drive it and where to park it. And we'll probably revert back to such which would be a mistake imo as the issue with such managers is that they are bus drivers. They know how to drive their same old repetitive route over and over again. They’ll get you from A to B, but if you want to advance onto C, say beating a Kazakhstan at home, they are lost as they do not know that route. And C is where you want to go, and not stuck going back and forth between A and B. :-)

[Stuttgart88]

I actually think Kenny has to a certain extent and in a certain context been successful (a bit like the Tories saying they'll break international law but only in a limited and specific way!). The side is now a fairly settled side of fairly young players with a few crusty veterans like Duffy to be called upon if needed, and with Coleman and Doherty to come back in if fit / match fit.

And the team has entered the 21st century in terms of ambition on the ball. We may not be very good and there’s no harm at all in mixing it up or being defensive if needed but I think there has been a permanent shift in the mindset.

A new manager can make good use of both. Somebody had to do what Kenny started imho. Others may have done it better, sure.

[sbgawa]

I actually think Kenny has to a certain extent and in a certain context been successful (a bit like the Tories saying they'll break international law but only in a limited and specific way!). The side is now a fairly settled side of fairly young players with a few crusty veterans like Duffy to be called upon if needed, and with Coleman and Doherty to come back in if fit / match fit.

And the team has entered the 21st century in terms of ambition on the ball. We may not be very good and there’s no harm at all in mixing it up or being defensive if needed but I think there has been a permanent shift in the mindset.

A new manager can make good use of both. Somebody had to do what Kenny started imho. Others may have done it better, sure.

This is a fair take. id be in favour of Kenny going now as i think the complete absence of results bar the odd moral victory in losing is unforgivable at this stage.
The number of well coached exceptionally talented players coming through the National underage leagues is huge.
I am very optimistic that we have several more Ferguson and Bazunus coing through.
We need a manager that can turn this talent into results at the same time.
Kenny is a good manager but maybe his man mangement and motivation which was much talked about when he was at Dundalk just doesnt work at the more remote National level where accesss to players is limited

[ifk101]

I wonder if the 3-5-2 was Anthony Barry’s idea that Kenny has chosen to continue but doesn’t have the backroom staff now to successfully implement it? 3-5-2 is coaching heavy to implement and it doesn’t feel like there is full comfort and positional understanding to play it at the moment, the couple of times Gibraltar got forward last night seemed to make us collectively very uneasy when we have the individual competence to deal whatever threat they had to offer. Can be corrected on this, but Kenny’s U21 team always played a 4-5-1/ 4-3-3 as per the start of his tenure as senior manager – perhaps that’s where his true competence is.

[tetsujin1979]

Oh dear.

Here’s a timeline of Southgate’s managerial credentials (what he did as a player (did he ever win anything?) is irrelevant. 1. Relegation with Boro. 2. Sacked by Boro. 3. Unemployed for 4 years. 4. Appointed U21 manager. 5. Finished last in England’s U21 Euro finals group, the highlight of three (long and successful?) years in charge.

And despite the above "he was still only given the England post on a caretaker basis". Madness. :-)

Let’s not ignore the circumstances of his appointment, eh? His appointment was a convenience to the circumstances as Tets has correctly pointed out to you.

Kenny hasn’t worked out for us, but a change of direction was needed, and he had the managerial merits to warrant a punt. He won everything in LOI football multiple times, had relative success with LOI teams in Europe, did well with the U21s, and knew the players to make a needed generational change at senior level. In hindsight, maybe we should have gone with another manager who knows what a bus looks like, how to drive it and where to park it. And we'll probably revert back to such which would be a mistake imo as the issue with such managers is that they are bus drivers. They know how to drive their same old repetitive route over and over again. They’ll get you from A to B, but if you want to advance onto C, say beating a Kazakhstan at home, they are lost as they do not know that route. And C is where you want to go, and not stuck going back and forth between A and B. :-)

Let this be the end of the Southgate discussion, it's (at best) tangental to the topic, and at worst irrelevant.

[gally]

I would love to pick a team for a friendly, the world will disagree with me, but hey ho here goes.....

Bazunu
Coleman Egan O'Shea Doherty
Smallbone Collins Knight
Ogbene Ferguson Johnston

4.3.3

[Nesta99]

I wonder if the 3-5-2 was Anthony Barry’s idea that Kenny has chosen to continue but doesn’t have the backroom staff now to successfully implement it? 3-5-2 is coaching heavy to implement and it doesn’t feel like there is full comfort and positional understanding to play it at the moment, the couple of times Gibraltar got forward last night seemed to make us collectively very uneasy when we have the individual competence to deal whatever threat they had to offer. Can be corrected on this, but Kenny’s U21 team always played a 4-5-1/ 4-3-3 as per the start of his tenure as senior manager – perhaps that’s where his true competence is.

I was actually thinking along this line in general last night. SK has a very specific way he wants his teams to play, he turned a bunch of journeymen LoI players, by and large written off as being good enough for LoI never mind any higher level, in to back to back league and cup winners, dominating for near a decade from rock bottom. He got them progressing in Europe and a good few got moves to England and Scotland as a result. The Irish squad are or should be a higher calibre of player so why do they seem to struggle with the maagers style? I think that to really change a players and teams mentaility, really build confidence and belief in a system it takes a lot of contact hours when starting from a low base/limited players/a complete change in philosophy. There are not enough contact hours in international football to do this quickly, it is never easy. SK is an eternal optimist and may have over estimated the time needed, indeed maybe it really needs to be done from early underage sides coming through to the senior setup. The point on 3-5-2 coaching observation compounds the lack of coaching time and by extension results.

By comparison to previous squads under differnt managers, player quality meant adapting wel enough but then look at how a decent squad was all over the place under Staunton, and midfield of Whelan, Brady et al bypassed by Charlton, we could become like a Gibraltar/Trap/O'Neill side and park the bus and hope for a long ball punt and occasionally nick a goal against a Germany that we have bored in to a late lapse. ts is getting harder to see the positives and progress right now but I also cant see how much of a difference change will make unless there is an outstanding option to replace Kenny. So the options are still patience and take setbacks on the chin knwoing that there will be players coming through and at minimum there is continuity, or we tinker with managerial changes that may not work and waste money and time in the process.

[del_carroll]

Don't post much, but most of the post match dialog on this really ground my gears. The reason for the narrow defeat (just one goal away from home remember) is almost nothing to do with Kenny and everything to do with the players at his disposal vs those that Greece have. Ireland as a nation are totally deluded when it comes to who we thin we should be beating in International football. We assume everyone outside of the big 7 or 8 teams should roll over easily. Greece are a serious footballing country with a good domestic game and annual participation in European competitions - they are also twice Ireland's size. We're not a serious football country - the manager makes almost no difference. The benchmark for footballing standards in the modern game is the Champions League. -I've counted seven champions league players in the starting lineup for Greece. That's set against Matt Doherty on our side. Any algorithm you were to put those team profiles into come up with would come up with a Greek win....wouldn't matter if they were managed by John the Baptist.


Player
Club
Champions League?
Europa League


Odysseas Vlachodimos
Benfica
2023



George Baldock
Sheffield Utd




Konstantinos Mavropanos
VfB Stuttgart
2022



Pantelis Chatzidiakos
Eredivisie club AZ
-



Konstantinos Tsimikas
Liverpool FC
2023



Dimitrios Kourbelis
Panathinaikos

2023


Petros Mantalos
AEK Athens
2019
2022


Giorgos Masouras
Olympiacos
2023



Anastasios Bakasetas
Trabzonspor
2023



Dimitrios Pelkas
Hull
2022 (fenerbace)



Anastasios Bakasetas
Eredivisie club AZ

2023

[Diggs246]

My new screen saver
"the manager makes almost no difference"

[SkStu]

Don't post much, but most of the post match dialog on this really ground my gears. The reason for the narrow defeat (just one goal away from home remember) is almost nothing to do with Kenny and everything to do with the players at his disposal vs those that Greece have. Ireland as a nation are totally deluded when it comes to who we thin we should be beating in International football. We assume everyone outside of the big 7 or 8 teams should roll over easily. Greece are a serious footballing country with a good domestic game and annual participation in European competitions - they are also twice Ireland's size. We're not a serious football country - the manager makes almost no difference. The benchmark for footballing standards in the modern game is the Champions League. -I've counted seven champions league players in the starting lineup for Greece. That's set against Matt Doherty on our side. Any algorithm you were to put those team profiles into come up with would come up with a Greek win....wouldn't matter if they were managed by John the Baptist.


Player
Club
Champions League?
Europa League


Odysseas Vlachodimos
Benfica
2023



George Baldock
Sheffield Utd




Konstantinos Mavropanos
VfB Stuttgart
2022



Pantelis Chatzidiakos
Eredivisie club AZ
-



Konstantinos Tsimikas
Liverpool FC
2023



Dimitrios Kourbelis
Panathinaikos

2023


Petros Mantalos
AEK Athens
2019
2022


Giorgos Masouras
Olympiacos
2023



Anastasios Bakasetas
Trabzonspor
2023



Dimitrios Pelkas
Hull
2022 (fenerbace)



Anastasios Bakasetas
Eredivisie club AZ

2023



Good post, fair points and I don't disagree with any of it really. The bit i cant get past is whether or not SK is making the best out of the crop. Did we play as well against [insert lesser seed/ranked team as appropriate] as we should have with the players that we had available? Were tactics, selection, in-game management all that they could have been? The body of evidence is growing that he's not optimizing things and progress has stalled almost 3 years in.

Could someone else do better? "It depends" is the not-very-satisfactory response to that...

[tetsujin1979]

Doesn't matter what level the players are playing at - if they're not set up correctly, as the two left sided players were against Greece, then the opposition will find it easy against us.

[Demesne Lad]

Further to Del Carroll's important comment this afternoon, a friend had shared with me some data from EireAnalytics. Only one (Baldock) of the Greek starting XI hadn't played in European club competition; eight of the Ireland XI hadn't. Median minutes played by the Greeks in these competitions: 2661; Irish median: zero. Total minutes played by the Greeks: 26,497; Irish total: 3150.


The Irish squad has been affected by injuries, but managers with experience at a higher level than S Kenny and almost daily contact with Doherty, Idah, Parrott, Obafemi, Connolly, have failed to get consistent effective form from them in 2022/23. We don't at present have a Premier League standard keeper - and may not have for the foreseeable future. We may or may not have one EPL midfielder in Cullen. Some of the Ireland panel are sinking into League One (e.g. McClean, Keane, ? Hendrick, ? McGrath). We can't expect to seriously challenge the for the top two places in a qualification group including France and the Netherlands with a squad composed of Championship and League One players.


I attend almost all the home games at the Aviva and at Windsor Park. Many, many times in recent years I have wished that Steven Davis was a BIG rather than a GAWA. Notice what has happened since he slowed down and then was injured?


A different manager could probably squeeze 2-3 points more out of this Republic squad. When does the crowd funding campaign start, assuming we can find someone brave enough to take on the job?

[backstothewall]

My new screen saver
"the manager makes almost no difference"

eg. Steven Gerrard's Aston Villa vs Unai Emery's Aston Villa.

No difference at all...

[pineapple stu]

Further to Del Carroll's important comment this afternoon, a friend had shared with me some data from EireAnalytics. Only one (Baldock) of the Greek starting XI hadn't played in European club competition; eight of the Ireland XI hadn't. Median minutes played by the Greeks in these competitions: 2661; Irish median: zero. Total minutes played by the Greeks: 26,497; Irish total: 3150.

I'd be wary about stats like minutes played in European competition - otherwise we'd be bringing back in Daryl Murphy and calling up Jack Byrne, Ronan Finn, and so on. Similarly, Olympiakos got two points in the Europa League (not Champions League) this season, which is fairly crap. But then the Greek keeper was starting for the Benfica team that beat Juve home and away in the Champions League groups, drew home and away against PSG, and ultimately reached the quarter-final - again, a big difference between those that mere minutes doesn't capture.

There's a valid point there but it needs to be couched carefully!

I do agree with the rest of your post though. Ultimately I think we need a new manager, but have to be realistic as to how much that would achieve.

[weldoninhio]

Don't post much, but most of the post match dialog on this really ground my gears. The reason for the narrow defeat (just one goal away from home remember) is almost nothing to do with Kenny and everything to do with the players at his disposal vs those that Greece have. Ireland as a nation are totally deluded when it comes to who we thin we should be beating in International football. We assume everyone outside of the big 7 or 8 teams should roll over easily. Greece are a serious footballing country with a good domestic game and annual participation in European competitions - they are also twice Ireland's size. We're not a serious football country - the manager makes almost no difference. The benchmark for footballing standards in the modern game is the Champions League. -I've counted seven champions league players in the starting lineup for Greece. That's set against Matt Doherty on our side. Any algorithm you were to put those team profiles into come up with would come up with a Greek win....wouldn't matter if they were managed by John the Baptist.


Player
Club
Champions League?
Europa League


Odysseas Vlachodimos
Benfica
2023



George Baldock
Sheffield Utd




Konstantinos Mavropanos
VfB Stuttgart
2022



Pantelis Chatzidiakos
Eredivisie club AZ
-



Konstantinos Tsimikas
Liverpool FC
2023



Dimitrios Kourbelis
Panathinaikos

2023


Petros Mantalos
AEK Athens
2019
2022


Giorgos Masouras
Olympiacos
2023



Anastasios Bakasetas
Trabzonspor
2023



Dimitrios Pelkas
Hull
2022 (fenerbace)



Anastasios Bakasetas
Eredivisie club AZ

2023




Lets drill down on this.

Odysseas Vlachodimos - 0 Champions League appearances.
George Baldock - 0 Champions League appearances.
Konstantinos Mavropanos - 0 Champions League appearances.
Pantelis Chatzidiakos - 0 Champions League appearances.
Konstantinos Tsimikas - 21 Champions League Appearances. 1355 mins.
Dimitrios Kourbelis - 0 Champions League appearances.
Petros Mantalos - 0 Champions League appearances.
Giorgos Masouras - 0 Champions League appearances.
Anastasios Bakasetas - 0 Champions League appearances.
Dimitrios Pelkas - 0 Champions League appearances.
E. Pavlidis - 0 Champions League appearances.

Hmmmmm, I think you need to crack the abacus out again.

[Diggs246]

eg. Steven Gerrard's Aston Villa vs Unai Emery's Aston Villa.

No difference at all...

It reminded me of this classic

"This Ronaldo fella is a cod"

[elatedscum]

Lets drill down on this.

Odysseas Vlachodimos - 0 Champions League appearances.
George Baldock - 0 Champions League appearances.
Konstantinos Mavropanos - 0 Champions League appearances.
Pantelis Chatzidiakos - 0 Champions League appearances.
Konstantinos Tsimikas - 21 Champions League Appearances. 1355 mins.
Dimitrios Kourbelis - 0 Champions League appearances.
Petros Mantalos - 0 Champions League appearances.
Giorgos Masouras - 0 Champions League appearances.
Anastasios Bakasetas - 0 Champions League appearances.
Dimitrios Pelkas - 0 Champions League appearances.
E. Pavlidis - 0 Champions League appearances.

Hmmmmm, I think you need to crack the abacus out again.

Not sure where you're getting your data from weldo but Vlachodimos played every minute for Benfica this season as they got to a champions league quarter final - and the same last season (again to the quarter final) and the two seasons before that (group stages)

I'm not gonna go any deeper than that on the list but he's played 32 champions league games

[tetsujin1979]

Lets drill down on this.

Odysseas Vlachodimos - 0 Champions League appearances.
George Baldock - 0 Champions League appearances.
Konstantinos Mavropanos - 0 Champions League appearances.
Pantelis Chatzidiakos - 0 Champions League appearances.
Konstantinos Tsimikas - 21 Champions League Appearances. 1355 mins.
Dimitrios Kourbelis - 0 Champions League appearances.
Petros Mantalos - 0 Champions League appearances.
Giorgos Masouras - 0 Champions League appearances.
Anastasios Bakasetas - 0 Champions League appearances.
Dimitrios Pelkas - 0 Champions League appearances.
E. Pavlidis - 0 Champions League appearances.

Hmmmmm, I think you need to crack the abacus out again.
I think he meant "has appeared in the Champions League/Europa League in his career", not just the past season. Have a look at their wikipedia entries
Odysseas Vlachodimos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseas_Vlachodimos#Career_statistics)
George Baldock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Baldock#Career_statistics)
Konstantinos Mavropanos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantinos_Mavropanos#Career_statistics)
Pantelis Chatzidiakos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantelis_Chatzidiakos#Career_statistics)
Kostas Tsimikas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostas_Tsimikas#Career_statistics)
Dimitrios Kourbelis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitrios_Kourbelis#Career_statistics)
Petros Mantalos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petros_Mantalos#Career_statistics)
Georgios Masouras (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Masouras#Career_statistics)
Anastasios Bakasetas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasios_Bakasetas#Career_statistics)
Dimitrios Pelkas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitrios_Pelkas#Career_statistics)
Vangelis Pavlidis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vangelis_Pavlidis#Career_statistics)

[pineapple stu]

No, he meant in the season indicated. So partly weldoniho is wrong (as elated has already pointed out) and partly Del Carroll is wrong. So for example Bakasetas played CL qualifying last year, where he scored as they were knocked out by Copenhagen. That dropped them into the EL groups (he scored three times), and then they came third there to make the Conference League knockouts, which he didn't play.

So not really right to say he was a CL player

[Trequartista20]

Just to so we're all clear, Greece are ranked three places behind an atocious Kenny-led Ireland. In the past year, they've drawn at home to Lithuania, away to Malta at lost in Cyprus.

UEFA's coefficient, based on recent European results, ranks the Greek league as 20th in Europe, nine places behind Serbia and eleven behind Scotland. It's also rated below the leagues of Norway, Denmark and Czechia.

This sports analytics company ranked the Greek Super League behind the likes of the Belgian second tier in 2021:

https://twitter.com/AndyForrester1/status/1446008765396959239

This site lists the Greek league behind likes of the French second tier and the Norwegian league:

https://www.globalfootballrankings.com/

Greece chose ten players from their domestic league in their most recent squad.

So, please let's not pretend Greece are some kind of footballing behemoth that we can't possibly, as a footballing nation, hope to compete with.

Greece are a mediocre footballing nation with a poor national team that somehow managed to absolutely batter us on Friday. Indeed it's perhaps measure of Greece's inadequacies as a team that they didn't put the four or five goals past us that the superiority of their performance deserved.

As far as the suggestion that if a player has at one point in his career played in European competition this is a mark of great quality and of being better than one who hasn't, well, that's such an obviously flawed line of reasoning that it's difficult to know where to begin.

Would our players suddenly be better if, rather than playing in the PL or Championship, they moved to a European qualified team playing in, for example, Cyprus or Gibraltar?

[Razors left peg]

So, please let's not pretend Greece are some kind of footballing behemoth that we can't possibly, as a footballing nation, hope to compete with.

Greece are a mediocre footballing nation with a poor national team that somehow managed to absolutely batter us on Friday. Indeed it's perhaps measure of Greece's inadequacies as a team that they didn't put the four or five goals past us that the superiority of their performance deserved.


I wouldnt mind being a mediocre footballing in nation of the level of Greece, who have won a major competition a lot more recently than others who claim to be top level footballing nations. Id love us to be so mediocre that our national league would compare to theirs.

As for them battering us, yes the 1st 10/15 mins Bazunu kept us in the game and that is not unusual for a home team to start well , but apart for us making a massive defensive mistake in 2nd half I dont recall too many chances that they created.

They then were solid enough to go to France and just get beaten by a penalty.

So while I would agree they are not a world super power, but I also dont think we have any right to expect to away to them and beat them. Yes we were poor on the night, players made silly mistakes, but lets not pretend that its an outrage of Luxembourg proportions .... oh wait Luxembourg are currently 2 nil up in Bosnia, to a Bosnia team that are fairly similarly ranked to ourselves, could it be that Luxembourg are not as bad we want to make them out to be either???

[pineapple stu]

As for them battering us, yes the 1st 10/15 mins Bazunu kept us in the game
Did he though?

He was very solid on the night and deserved token Irish MotM (well, him or Collins), but really he made one very good save early on and everything else was fairly routine.

[SkStu]

Just to so we're all clear, Greece are ranked three places behind an atocious Kenny-led Ireland. In the past year, they've drawn at home to Lithuania, away to Malta at lost in Cyprus.

UEFA's coefficient, based on recent European results, ranks the Greek league as 20th in Europe, nine places behind Serbia and eleven behind Scotland. It's also rated below the leagues of Norway, Denmark and Czechia.

This sports analytics company ranked the Greek Super League behind the likes of the Belgian second tier in 2021:

https://twitter.com/AndyForrester1/status/1446008765396959239

This site lists the Greek league behind likes of the French second tier and the Norwegian league:

https://www.globalfootballrankings.com/

Greece chose ten players from their domestic league in their most recent squad.

So, please let's not pretend Greece are some kind of footballing behemoth that we can't possibly, as a footballing nation, hope to compete with.

Greece are a mediocre footballing nation with a poor national team that somehow managed to absolutely batter us on Friday. Indeed it's perhaps measure of Greece's inadequacies as a team that they didn't put the four or five goals past us that the superiority of their performance deserved.

As far as the suggestion that if a player has at one point in his career played in European competition this is a mark of great quality and of being better than one who hasn't, well, that's such an obviously flawed line of reasoning that it's difficult to know where to begin.

Would our players suddenly be better if, rather than playing in the PL or Championship, they moved to a European qualified team playing in, for example, Cyprus or Gibraltar?

I think you are slightly misrepresenting the posts on the matter. Bottom line, we didnt play well against Greece and we should not have been battered the way we were. We have no divine right to beat them (as per the post earlier) but we should be expecting - as many said before the game - to challenge them, to put it up to them and that a win was a possibility and fairly at about a 35% chance. To be fair, Del's post wasnt claiming the Greek football team to be a behemoth. But their football culture and utility of their domestic league in an international context puts us to shame without doubt. If only we had a domestic league that could provide a third of the senior MNT squad.

Regarding players - would I want us to have the sort of recent representation in the European tournament group stages that the Greece team can point to? Without doubt. Would we be better off if we had a similar player profile and experience in top European games? Without doubt. That is how i interpreted his comments and there is nothing flawed about that at all.

[Razors left peg]

Did he though?

He was very solid on the night and deserved token Irish MotM (well, him or Collins), but really he made one very good save early on and everything else was fairly routine.

Yes he was excellent even if your own bias won't allow you to accept that

[CraftyToePoke]

Pineappler, did Bazunu talk his way into your house on Christmas Day & then relieve himself all over the presents under the tree & into the fireplace while smirking at you or something ?

[pineapple stu]

Neither of those is really an answer to the question though, which I find interesting.

[Diggs246]

Pineappler, did Bazunu talk his way into your house on Christmas Day & then relieve himself all over the presents under the tree & into the fireplace while smirking at you or something ?

The fireplace one is an interesting image!

[Diggs246]

Actually your talking about wee wee !

My bad

[ontheotherhand]

Neither of those is really an answer to the question though, which I find interesting.

Without wanting to rewatch it for obvious reasons, he made one very good save in the first half from a looping shot to the top corner and later came out to stop the Greek player who was through on goal when he might have stayed on his line. For me they were two fine pieces of goalkeeping. As you say other saves were more routine but I'll take routine with a smattering of quality at the moment. He was the only player who kept his head and performed at the right level and if he hadn't we would have been goosed by halftime. I think the halftime pundits even called it out with a series of highlights?

I get that you don't want to overhype him but.....it's surely OK to say he kept us in the game when he did in fact make multiple saves, particularly when we were under immense pressure for the opening 15 mins? He certainly performed better than Collins who was all over the shop at the back even if he got the goal.

[Trequartista20]

Whilst I don't obviously believe we have any 'devine right' to beat Greece on their home turf - and have heard no-one claim we do - the reality of the situation is that the the composition of the group we were drawn in and the subsequent home loss to France meant that we were left needing to get a result in Greece or risk falling out of contention for qualification after just two matches. So, in all reality, the Greek game was one we had to win, or, at the very, very worst, avoid defeat in and put in a credible and confidence-boosting performance that would leave us with a residual slither of hope that we might pull off the extraordinarily unlikely results then needed to finish in the top two.

Instead of this, and after no less than two weeks of preparation and planning, we put in the truly appalling non-performance that saw us comprehensively outplayed by an extremely moderate Greek side, placed below us in FIFA's world rankings. A team that, goalkeeper aside, any sensible observer would conclude actually possess very little real quality.

We should at a minimum consider ourselves on a similar level to Greece and at least been competitive. That's what have a right to expect. It wasn't that we failed to win - that we failed to avoid defeat even - that people find so unacceptable, it was the manner of that defeat.

We weren't even close, unable to get even the basics right. We looked a shambles, with players unsure of their roles and Kenny seemingly incapable of even identifying what the problems were, let alone knowing how to rectify them. And this was topped off by the loss of discipline that saw a player sent off.

People can talk up a very modest Greek team up all they want, but the bottom line is that Kenny was the single biggest factor in Friday's debacle. He was completely outwitted by his opposite number Poyet, and to a degree that was embarrassing to witness.

[elatedscum]

Whilst I don't obviously believe we have any 'devine right' to beat Greece on their home turf - and have heard no-one claim we do - the reality of the situation is that the the composition of the group we were drawn in and the subsequent home loss to France meant that we were left needing to get a result in Greece or risk falling out of contention for qualification after just two matches. So, in all reality, the Greek game was one we had to win, or, at the very, very worst, avoid defeat in and put in a credible and confidence-boosting performance that would leave us with a residual slither of hope that we might pull off the extraordinarily unlikely results then needed to finish in the top two.

Instead of this, and after no less than two weeks of preparation and planning, we put in the truly appalling non-performance that saw us comprehensively outplayed by an extremely moderate Greek side, placed below us in FIFA's world rankings. A team that, goalkeeper aside, any sensible observer would conclude actually possess very little real quality.

We should at a minimum consider ourselves on a similar level to Greece and at least been competitive. That's what have a right to expect. It wasn't that we failed to win - that we failed to avoid defeat even - that people find so unacceptable, it was the manner of that defeat.

We weren't even close, unable to get even the basics right. We looked a shambles, with players unsure of their roles and Kenny seemingly incapable of even identifying what the problems were, let alone knowing how to rectify them. And this was topped off by the loss of discipline that saw a player sent off.

People can talk up a very modest Greek team up all they want, but the bottom line is that Kenny was the single biggest factor in Friday's debacle. He was completely outwitted by his opposite number Poyet, and to a degree that was embarrassing to witness.


I think Brady's frustration just got the better of him, a father Jack moment.
There's little argument that it's the worst performing managerial period since 1972, but it's very questionable about the current bunch of players being the worst ever to choose from.

There’s a lot of talk about the quality of our squad - but I think the biggest thing we’re really lacking is one or two or three truly great players. If you go back to the 90s, Dennis Irwin is streets ahead of our best player now. Given, Finnan, Roy, Robbie, Duffer - there’s no one close to their level. Hopefully in three years time, Ferguson, Bazunu, Collins will all be elite but right now we’re missing any star quality. Doherty is our best player and is he in the 300 best players in Europe?

So many nations at a similar level to ourselves have produced players of real quality. Look at Norway with Haaland, Odegaard and the centre back at Napoli, Ukraine with Mudryk and Zinchenko, Slovenia with Oblak, Georgia with Kvaratskelia, Montenegro with Savic and Joveti?, Finland with Hradecky, Sweden with Isak, Lindelof and Kuluzevski, Albania with Broja, Austria with Alaba. So on, so on. As for Greece, I’d take Vlacodimis, Tsimikas and Bakasetas over any irish player right now. I think the overall quality of our squad is good but if we had two players of a level of Rice and Grealish (for example) - the entire make up and potential of the squad would be totally different.

[Snapshot]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/ive-never-been-one-to-speak-about-myself-like-this-stephen-kennys-unprompted-700-word-speech-as-he-fights-for-job/a374969571.html

You better believe it. Stephen Kenny waves his CV, tells us he's the man.

[CraftyToePoke]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2023/0620/1390290-kenny-signs-off-for-summer-with-solemn-soliliquoy/



But then, the mood changed, as the manager clearly had something to get off his chest, and he asked for some space. Kenny clearly wanted to put across his side of the long-running conversation regarding his suitability for the job, so here are his words in full.

"Sorry can you all just step back," said the manager.

"The reality is this: this is the way I view it, right? And I don’t mind saying this, right? I am - I’ve never been one to speak about myself like this, in this vein – but I started as a young manager, successful. I failed and then I failed better. I went on again, had setbacks and built a resilience and a determination.

"I have been in 16 cups finals. I was in eight FAI Cup finals. I have been in two Scottish Cup finals. I won six league cups. I won more trophies than anyone in modern history. I won five league titles. 46 Champions League and Europa League games; I beat Maccabi Tel Aviv, BATE Borisov, Gotenburg home and away, Hajduk Split and others, drew with Paris Saint-Germain , drew with Legia Warsaw.


"That’s why I got the job because I am the most successful Irish manager at this time.

"I went on from that, managed the U21 team, got good experience, took the radical approach of taking all these 17-year-olds and putting them in the U21 team, which never happened before. We had an exciting time and were leading the group and might have qualified.

"Obviously, because of Covid, Mick McCarthy is a good manager, a great man, obviously Covid interrupted the succession plan, and I had the play-off and the subsequent Covid games which were a bit of a farce because we had nine or 10 missing out of each camp. We lost the play-off on penalties. It’s been said I’ve been three years in the job.

"Realistically, I have been two years building this team, since March when we lost here [against Luxembourg], and in the opening game in Serbia. All of those players have come in over the last two years. We’ve given 18 players their debut. 18 players their debut through our own system. We’d nine years with nothing through, nothing, we brought 18 players through from the system. We finished third in the group which was probably parity. Obviously, there was a bit of pain, a bad defeat against Luxembourg and so forth.

"This is the campaign that I’ve built for. Obviously we had a right setback with the game against Greece. That was an important part of the plan, to beat Greece, to try to do that because we got sort of a group of death. But I think, you know, I’m very strong and very resilient and I don’t really care. I don’t need to listen to anyone’s opinions to know what I want and what I am.

"I’ve taken on a lot and it’s a small community in Ireland and people are upset over a variety of things but all of the decisions I made with the international team were with the best interests of Irish football. I’ve made brave decisions in the best interests of Irish football, OK? And I’ve made good decisions.

"I have a brilliant backroom staff. Keith Andrews is an outstanding coach, outstanding; John O’Shea has been a brilliant addition; Dean Kiely, these are top-level people; Stephen Rice has graduated and doing a great job, and all of the backroom team. So we will get better, we want to still qualify from this group. I’ll see out until the end of the campaign. I don’t know, after that, it’s other people’s decision. The objective was to qualify from this campaign, that is the objective, I’m not trying to hide from that. I’m not trying to build forever. We’ve been building a team over the past two years to try and qualify here.

"I think we’ve created a very, very vibrant coaching environment. We’ve completely transformed the way the team plays – not in every game – but it’s now assumed that you play that way, in terms of building and playing the way we have.

"We’ve scored a lot of goals, but conceded some that we shouldn’t have. We lost games 2-1 on the margins. I accept criticism for that. We need to win more games. We need to win more games and I know that. That’s how I feel."

It’s been a tough week for Kenny, but nothing compared to previous days in the job, most notably during Covid times, as the manager believes that he is has full confidence in the way that he is currently carrying out his role with the national team.

"No, no, actually, no, the first few months, the whole Covid period, dealing with that, was really, really tough," said Kenny, when asked was this the toughest week of his tenure.

"I can’t tell you how tough that was. Certainly that [this weekend] hasn’t been the toughest period, I know what I’m doing.

"The players are really talented, a progressive, young group, a lot of whom have come through together. There are some great senior pros, not all of them available in this camp, we’ve a couple of injuries but we’ve to get ready, we’ve tough games in September, France is as tough as it gets, in Paris, but we’ve got to get ready, prepare and try and win.

"I wouldn’t have got where I got, into this job, if I didn’t believe you can achieve extraordinary things. The reason I took clubs from nothing, took them through division and into Europa League, because I managed in the group stage of the Europa League, and the reason I done that was because I believe you can achieve extraordinary things. That’s what I believe."

Of the assembled journalists, many had been on this journey, witnessing the highs and lows of Kenny’s managerial career over the past 20 years, so there was an element of preaching to the converted with the solemn soliloquy.

So while there has been criticism about the media’s portrayal of the team and the manager, most recently from captain-for-the-day, James McClean, who said "ideally, we'd love the media on our side", the manager was now using the medium to get his message out to the nation, and perhaps aimed at a range of critics who may not appreciate, in his eyes, the unselfish work that has been done for the benefit of Irish football, as a whole, and not just for the senior side.

To finish, the Kenny was asked why he was making the declaration at this juncture, and asked "why have you reminded us of your CV"?

"Because it just felt right."

[CraftyToePoke]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/ive-never-been-one-to-speak-about-myself-like-this-stephen-kennys-unprompted-700-word-speech-as-he-fights-for-job/a374969571.html

You better believe it. Stephen Kenny waves his CV, tells us he's the man.

Your link doesn't include the full speech Snappers I don't think.

[CraftyToePoke]

Actually your talking about wee wee !

My bad

Yes, wee wee Diggs. I wasn't speculating Gavin Bazunu talked his way into Pineapplers gaff on Christmas Day and stuck his bare ass into a roaring hot fireplace at all. Far from it.

[SkStu]

I think it’s quite telling that Pineapple didn’t deny it.

[Colbert Report]

"I have been in 16 cups finals. I was in eight FAI Cup finals. I have been in two Scottish Cup finals. I won six league cups. I won more trophies than anyone in modern history. I won five league titles. 46 Champions League and Europa League games; I beat Maccabi Tel Aviv, BATE Borisov, Gotenburg home and away, Hajduk Split and others, drew with Paris Saint-Germain , drew with Legia Warsaw."

This is just sad to read. I've been in at least sixteen cup finals myself, mostly in co-ed football here in North America, which is where men and women play together and there are no slide tackles allowed. I honestly feel bad for Stephen Kenny. He won't be shamed into quitting. He wants that payoff.

[CraftyToePoke]

I've been in at least sixteen cup finals myself, mostly in co-ed football here in North America, which is where men and women play together and there are no slide tackles allowed.

Anyone pull your hair ?

[Razors left peg]

"I have been in 16 cups finals. I was in eight FAI Cup finals. I have been in two Scottish Cup finals. I won six league cups. I won more trophies than anyone in modern history. I won five league titles. 46 Champions League and Europa League games; I beat Maccabi Tel Aviv, BATE Borisov, Gotenburg home and away, Hajduk Split and others, drew with Paris Saint-Germain , drew with Legia Warsaw."

This is just sad to read. I've been in at least sixteen cup finals myself, mostly in co-ed football here in North America, which is where men and women play together and there are no slide tackles allowed. I honestly feel bad for Stephen Kenny. He won't be shamed into quitting. He wants that payoff.

Fresh off you being warned about continuing to call the LOI a pub league you now compare it to your cute little kick around with your girlfriends. Think you've mentioned before that you live in LA, come on down to Orange County. Decent men's league here, few ex LOI players even playing. I promise there'll be plenty of slide tackles