Stephen Kenny

[CraftyToePoke]

We ran a poll here previously at key moments in the SK era, mods, any chance of one now again for a few days please ?
I notice the YBIG one is running again at the moment and with 150+ votes in is 79% in favour of retaining the manager.

[ontheotherhand]

Folks....Mick McCarthy cost more than twice as much. More importantly, he had the benefit of an experienced spine of players from GK through midfield and to a proper centre forward. Randolph, Whelan and McGoldrick were 3 of his best performers. McGoldrick was by far his best player. With him we could compete even if the football was tough to watch at times. Look at the Swiss results with and without McGoldrick.

Mick did ok with that group. Not great, but ok. Some good performances and some really grim ones and ultimately he failed to qualify. I was glad to see him go overall. It's no great surprise he gets the sack so often.

Sadly we aren't going to be qualifying under Kenny or another manager until a core group of midfielders and at least one striker get a few more years under their belts. We will finish above the Armenia's and below the Ukraine's for a while. We concede from really silly mistakes and lapses in concentration. That's down to a lack of experience on the field and occasionally a lack of ability i.e. Hourihane.

That said, as much as that's a partial defense of Kenny I'd be fine if we brought in someone else as well. He's had time and done ok for me albeit I had low expectations. Who would want it though? Any sane manager is going to see we are years away from being competitive. Even 2024 might be too soon.

We finished 3rd as 3rd seeds. It wasnt quite the disaster it's being made out to be here.

[tetsujin1979]

We ran a poll here previously at key moments in the SK era, mods, any chance of one now again for a few days please ?
I notice the YBIG one is running again at the moment and with 150+ votes in is 79% in favour of retaining the manager.
Do you want it now, or after the two friendlies in November?

[nigel-harps1954]

Do you want it now, or after the two friendlies in November?

November will probably see a change of the guard again. The likes of Smallbone, Coventry, and a couple of others potentially brought through.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Folks....Mick McCarthy cost more than twice as much. More importantly, he had the benefit of an experienced spine of players from GK through midfield and to a proper centre forward. Randolph, Whelan and McGoldrick were 3 of his best performers. McGoldrick was by far his best player. With him we could compete even if the football was tough to watch at times. Look at the Swiss results with and without McGoldrick.

Mick did ok with that group. Not great, but ok. Some good performances and some really grim ones and ultimately he failed to qualify. I was glad to see him go overall. It's no great surprise he gets the sack so often.

Sadly we aren't going to be qualifying under Kenny or another manager until a core group of midfielders and at least one striker get a few more years under their belts. We will finish above the Armenia's and below the Ukraine's for a while. We concede from really silly mistakes and lapses in concentration. That's down to a lack of experience on the field and occasionally a lack of ability i.e. Hourihane.

That said, as much as that's a partial defense of Kenny I'd be fine if we brought in someone else as well. He's had time and done ok for me albeit I had low expectations. Who would want it though? Any sane manager is going to see we are years away from being competitive. Even 2024 might be too soon.

We finished 3rd as 3rd seeds. It wasnt quite the disaster it's being made out to be here.

Randolph was available for Kenny and he was selected for all the 2020 Nations league games I believe. Are you talking about the much lambasted Glenn Whelan? Also, McGoldrick was available for Kenny until he dropped him which may have aided his move to retire.

Mick came very close to qualifying in a tough group with a worse squad than Kenny's so if you were glad to see him go then......

Previous managers were then correct instating we don't have the players? They've been vindicated?

We came a long way off toping the group. Another failure in the growing list with Kenny. He also stated that the aim was to win the group. So it really was a disaster just going by Kenny's own target.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Do you want it now, or after the two friendlies in November?

He should be gone before November to get the new manager in for the friendlies.

[SkStu]

Again, this is wrong and another failed excuse for those defending Kenny. The squad for McCarthy's last game v Denmark:

Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens, Browne, Hendrick, Whelan, Hourihane, McClean, McGoldrick.
Subs: Kevin Long, Clark, Parrott, Cullen, Byrne, Brady, Robinson, James Collins, O'Hara, Maguire, Travers, Judge.

Kenny had all of these players available to him bar Whelan and selected all of them bar maybe Judge? McGoldrick retired not long afterwards but Kenny inherited a squad that ran Denmark and Switzerland very close for qualification. On top of this, a number of young players have emerged and developed at their clubs. Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, O'Shea, Molumby, Idah, Obafemi, Knight, Ogbene. Josh Cullen moved to Anderlecht and made great improvements. Kenny fans would claim that McCarthy wouldn't have blood the new players but he had already brought Aaron Connolly on board (he was injured for the Denmark game) along with Parrott. The truth is that Kenny has had a stronger squad available to him than McCarthy! And done far worse.

Previous managers used to get lambasted for claiming we don't have the players, now we don't have the players is one of the many excuses used by Kenny supporters. Despite these excuses, what level of results would have been satisfactory to anyone going into the Kenny reign?
1. Losing to an understrength Slovakia in the play-offs? He didn't get a new manager bounce that even Staunton got and notched up his first failure.
2. Scored one goal in battling it out at the bottom of the nations league group.
3. Again battled it out at the bottom of world cup qualification with embarrassing results against Luxembourg and Azerbaijan.
4. A hatrick of bottom of the barrel campaigns with a humiliating defeat to Armenia.

His reign has been an unmitigated disaster. He deserved to be sacked long before now but we can't go into another campaign with him in charge.

Sorry, how is it wrong exactly? The list of players you have selected to make your point actually reinforce what i said in the piece you quoted. Doherty, Egan, Duffy, Stevens, Hendrick, Whelan, Hourihane, McGoldrick, McClean, K Long, Clark, Brady, Travers - are all players that were playing EPL or top of Championship in 2019 (Villa and Sheffield United both gaining promotion to the EPL in 2019, Stoke relegated to Championship in 2019). Randolph, Robinson, Browne, Maguire, Judge all mid table Championship. Collins won League 1 and L1 POTY. The rest were something of anomalies and didnt truly feature much if at all under Mick (Parrott, Byrne, Cullen, O'Hara).

To say that the players that SK has are not a) younger overall and b) not playing at the same level overall is not accurate. As an aside, Kenny selected the vast majority of players that had played under Mick for that Slovakia game. Only Kelleher, Molumby and Idah were new call ups in his first squad if i recall correctly. Only 12 from that list above were in the most recent SK squad. Of the other 11, 9 are still available to him. Its been a massive overhaul.

[CraftyToePoke]

Sadly we aren't going to be qualifying under Kenny or another manager until a core group of midfielders and at least one striker get a few more years under their belts. We will finish above the Armenia's and below the Ukraine's for a while. We concede from really silly mistakes and lapses in concentration. That's down to a lack of experience on the field and occasionally a lack of ability i.e. Hourihane.

That said, as much as that's a partial defense of Kenny I'd be fine if we brought in someone else as well. He's had time and done ok for me albeit I had low expectations. Who would want it though? Any sane manager is going to see we are years away from being competitive. Even 2024 might be too soon.

I would agree with much of this, any manager who'll promise a major finals with our current player group at their current career stage ( & it may not be an upward trajectory for many of them from here ) is either lying, deluded and maybe both. That said, Kenny shouldn't have been talking about them winning the NL group either. So it isn't qualification or bust IMO for him at this stage.

What he has done, taking on sides playing decent ball, as he said could be done has been very enjoyable particularly as the list of predecessors generally said it couldn't be done, he deserves credit for that. What he has also done is effectively blown each campaign in the first window with a clanger result against sides we have to find a way to beat to make his other work relevant.

At least an actual conversation has broken out recently about the man, on here. It became very absolute and entrenched which turned many away from contributing to the discussion which IMO is a sign of debate having failed in favour of attacks & absolutes. Anti SK said we couldn't pass - till we did, we couldn't score - till we did, then we couldn't win - till we did, now they are saying we won't qualify, but he has done enough to negate many of the early criticisms whether they acknowledge that or not.

I suppose it rests on if you have faith on him to overcome the clangers and beyond that produce in every game, all through the game, what he unquestionably has produced in some games. Some do, some don't, some want to wait and see because any change won't dramatically alter the ceiling of this player group at this point & he might get there anyway. I have always wanted to see where this leads, fully before changing and .. just about .. still do. But he is one clanger from the end now and if it comes, he has nobody to blame but himself, the campaign needs to be alive coming into the final international window and not dead ( or as good as ) in the first one because of a brain fart result.

[CraftyToePoke]

Do you want it now, or after the two friendlies in November?

I would say now as the NL campaign being over is more of a punctuation than the friendlies.

[ontheotherhand]

Randolph was available for Kenny and he was selected for all the 2020 Nations league games I believe. Are you talking about the much lambasted Glenn Whelan? Also, McGoldrick was available for Kenny until he dropped him which may have aided his move to retire.

Mick came very close to qualifying in a tough group with a worse squad than Kenny's so if you were glad to see him go then......

Previous managers were then correct instating we don't have the players? They've been vindicated?

We came a long way off toping the group. Another failure in the growing list with Kenny. He also stated that the aim was to win the group. So it really was a disaster just going by Kenny's own target.

Randolph was available in a sense but had basically retired. Whelan night have been lambasted by some but he was a key figure to most serious pundits and fans. Mick had a more experienced team. Players who have declined since we're still useful then. They were harder to beat because of that. He's not exactly a tactical mastermind. Did you not anticipate a bit of a transition? I'd be surprised at that. You post a lot so you must follow things pretty closely.

Previous managers shouldn't have said that we didn't have the players, particularly as they often had some good ones they were overlooking or not getting the most out of but that doesn't mean it isn't true now. We've been on a steady decline for anyone watching and when the last crop of good ones went we were left with a serious void. We have a chance at a few players making the grade needed now but we are a long way off having a squad as strong as 2002 or even close.

[tetsujin1979]

I would say now as the NL campaign being over is more of a punctuation than the friendlies.

do you want the same options as in the other two polls - linked in the first post in the thread

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Sorry, how is it wrong exactly? The list of players you have selected to make your point actually reinforce what i said in the piece you quoted. Doherty, Egan, Duffy, Stevens, Hendrick, Whelan, Hourihane, McGoldrick, McClean, K Long, Clark, Brady, Travers - are all players that were playing EPL or top of Championship in 2019 (Villa and Sheffield United both gaining promotion to the EPL in 2019, Stoke relegated to Championship in 2019). Randolph, Robinson, Browne, Maguire, Judge all mid table Championship. Collins won League 1 and L1 POTY. The rest were something of anomalies and didnt truly feature much if at all under Mick (Parrott, Byrne, Cullen, O'Hara).

To say that the players that SK has are not a) younger overall and b) not playing at the same level overall is not accurate. As an aside, Kenny selected the vast majority of players that had played under Mick for that Slovakia game. Only Kelleher, Molumby and Idah were new call ups in his first squad if i recall correctly. Only 12 from that list above were in the most recent SK squad. Of the other 11, 9 are still available to him. Its been a massive overhaul.

You were trying to infer that Kenny had a weaker squad than his predecessor. This is demonstratively untrue and your post above backs that up. He basically had the same squad to begin with and since then a large number of youngsters have developed along with players like Cullen upping their standard. Kenny has had access to squads of similar strength to McCarthy's and now access to a stronger squad than McCarthy. The results show he is performing a long way below his predecessor. That's where he should be judged.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I would agree with much of this, any manager who'll promise a major finals with our current player group at their current career stage ( & it may not be an upward trajectory for many of them from here ) is either lying, deluded and maybe both. That said, Kenny shouldn't have been talking about them winning the NL group either. So it isn't qualification or bust IMO for him at this stage.

What he has done, taking on sides playing decent ball, as he said could be done has been very enjoyable particularly as the list of predecessors generally said it couldn't be done, he deserves credit for that. What he has also done is effectively blown each campaign in the first window with a clanger result against sides we have to find a way to beat to make his other work relevant.

At least an actual conversation has broken out recently about the man, on here. It became very absolute and entrenched which turned many away from contributing to the discussion which IMO is a sign of debate having failed in favour of attacks & absolutes. Anti SK said we couldn't pass - till we did, we couldn't score - till we did, then we couldn't win - till we did, now they are saying we won't qualify, but he has done enough to negate many of the early criticisms whether they acknowledge that or not.

I suppose it rests on if you have faith on him to overcome the clangers and beyond that produce in every game, all through the game, what he unquestionably has produced in some games. Some do, some don't, some want to wait and see because any change won't dramatically alter the ceiling of this player group at this point & he might get there anyway. I have always wanted to see where this leads, fully before changing and .. just about .. still do. But he is one clanger from the end now and if it comes, he has nobody to blame but himself, the campaign needs to be alive coming into the final international window and not dead ( or as good as ) in the first one because of a brain fart result.

Kenny was given every chance to succeed, take emotion out of it and there is very little case for keeping him on. A succession of dreadful results can't be brushed over as brain farts. If so then Staunton should have been kept on! Kenny has had 4 failures in his time with Ireland. He's had too many chances already. Why risk letting him have a 5th?

[CraftyToePoke]

do you want the same options as in the other two polls - linked in the first post in the thread

I think its different now, its more a straight two choice dynamic tets, does he lead us into the next campaign or not ?
What to others think ?

[ontheotherhand]

I would agree with much of this, any manager who'll promise a major finals with our current player group at their current career stage ( & it may not be an upward trajectory for many of them from here ) is either lying, deluded and maybe both. That said, Kenny shouldn't have been talking about them winning the NL group either. So it isn't qualification or bust IMO for him at this stage.

What he has done, taking on sides playing decent ball, as he said could be done has been very enjoyable particularly as the list of predecessors generally said it couldn't be done, he deserves credit for that. What he has also done is effectively blown each campaign in the first window with a clanger result against sides we have to find a way to beat to make his other work relevant.

At least an actual conversation has broken out recently about the man, on here. It became very absolute and entrenched which turned many away from contributing to the discussion which IMO is a sign of debate having failed in favour of attacks & absolutes. Anti SK said we couldn't pass - till we did, we couldn't score - till we did, then we couldn't win - till we did, now they are saying we won't qualify, but he has done enough to negate many of the early criticisms whether they acknowledge that or not.

I suppose it rests on if you have faith on him to overcome the clangers and beyond that produce in every game, all through the game, what he unquestionably has produced in some games. Some do, some don't, some want to wait and see because any change won't dramatically alter the ceiling of this player group at this point & he might get there anyway. I have always wanted to see where this leads, fully before changing and .. just about .. still do. But he is one clanger from the end now and if it comes, he has nobody to blame but himself, the campaign needs to be alive coming into the final international window and not dead ( or as good as ) in the first one because of a brain fart result.

I think the problem in the earlier discussions was that it was just too early for the OTT criticism. It all sounded like people had already made their minds up when most people should have realized we were in for a long overhaul and probably some pain before things got better as the players we needed to come through did so. I reacted to that by defending him probably a bit too much on the flip side of that. I've never been a massive fan of him but you could just tell the anti-LoI brigade were out in force from the start. If you wanted him given time or argued that there was progress you had to be a clueless LoI fanatic or "Kennyite". There were a lot of real straw man arguments where people claimed that anyone who wanted Kenny in was thinking of him as a Messiah who would bring us to Brazilian levels of entertaining football. Nonsense stuff. Most fans were on the reasonable sides of either "he doesn't have enough experience at this level and it's showing" or "'he's shown enough ability with Dundalk, we need someone who knows the 21s and the team is starting to play some good stuff". But on an internet forum....well.....there's no room for grey area.

That he's won over the crowds going to games is actually really encouraging and tells a story all on it's own.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Randolph was available in a sense but had basically retired. Whelan night have been lambasted by some but he was a key figure to most serious pundits and fans. Mick had a more experienced team. Players who have declined since we're still useful then. They were harder to beat because of that. He's not exactly a tactical mastermind. Did you not anticipate a bit of a transition? I'd be surprised at that. You post a lot so you must follow things pretty closely.

Previous managers shouldn't have said that we didn't have the players, particularly as they often had some good ones they were overlooking or not getting the most out of but that doesn't mean it isn't true now. We've been on a steady decline for anyone watching and when the last crop of good ones went we were left with a serious void. We have a chance at a few players making the grade needed now but we are a long way off having a squad as strong as 2002 or even close.

Did Randolph play in the 2020 nations league? Whelan was 36 and his legs were gone. Who would you have, Whelan or Cullen? Again, Kenny had virtually the same squad as McCarthy but with the addition of talented youngsters. Stronger squad but weaker results.

And at the end of the day that's the bottom line. We can give our opinions on whether the players are good enough etc but when it comes to results they are all fact based. The facts show that Kenny has overseen the worst spell of any Irish manager for decades. Worse than Staunton. He has had 4 failures as Irish manager and has come closer to rock bottom than top in all groups he's overseen. These facts can't be overlooked. We also have to look at the fall in our rankings, making it harder for future campaigns, along with the fall in revenue from repeated failures. This leaves his position untenable in my view and hopefully the FAI see it that way as well.

[CraftyToePoke]

Kenny was given every chance to succeed, take emotion out of it and there is very little case for keeping him on. A succession of dreadful results can't be brushed over as brain farts. If so then Staunton should have been kept on! Kenny has had 4 failures in his time with Ireland. He's had too many chances already. Why risk letting him have a 5th?

Evening Boomers, you still haven't answered my question from before IIRC, the one that got you your little holiday from here, the one about if every game should be a referendum on the competence of the manager ?

Nevertheless, I will answer yours in the spirit of civilised discourse & although I feel I answered it in my post already, you are in your own way making an effort to debate.

Because I don't believe the player pool ceiling is much, if any, higher than he is achieving. You yourself cannot forgive the clangers, others take a beep breath and more of an overview. Different strokes, etc.

[pineapple stu]

I think its different now, its more a straight two choice dynamic tets, does he lead us into the next campaign or not ?
What to others think ?
Are you asking for a poll on the poll?

I'd like to see a poll on that before giving my view..

I think Yes, No, Unsure but thinking no, and Unsure but thinking yes would do it? (Question being should he start the Euro qualification campaign as manager)

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Evening Boomers, you still haven't answered my question from before IIRC, the one that got you your little holiday from here, the one about if every game should be a referendum on the competence of the manager ?

Nevertheless, I will answer yours in the spirit of civilised discourse & although I feel I answered it in my post already, you are in your own way making an effort to debate.

Because I don't believe the player pool ceiling is much, if any, higher than he is achieving. You yourself cannot forgive the clangers, others take a beep breath and more of an overview. Different strokes, etc.

Evening zoomy. I don't remember that question or any holiday? Why would 1 game decide anything? It's repeated failures that should be the deciding factor.

Well I've used facts to show that Kenny has had a similar level squad to his predecessor and now has a superior squad to his predecessor. The facts also show McCarthy's record as played 10, won 5, drew 4 and lost 1. Kenny's record is played 28, won 7, drawn 11 and lost 10. That's the overview with emotions taken out of it. His reign has been a failure based on results.

[CraftyToePoke]

I think the problem in the earlier discussions was that it was just too early for the OTT criticism. It all sounded like people had already made their minds up when most people should have realized we were in for a long overhaul and probably some pain before things got better as the players we needed to come through did so. I reacted to that by defending him probably a bit too much on the flip side of that. I've never been a massive fan of him but you could just tell the anti-LoI brigade were out in force from the start. If you wanted him given time or argued that there was progress you had to be a clueless LoI fanatic or "Kennyite". There were a lot of real straw man arguments where people claimed that anyone who wanted Kenny in was thinking of him as a Messiah who would bring us to Brazilian levels of entertaining football. Nonsense stuff. Most fans were on the reasonable sides of either "he doesn't have enough experience at this level and it's showing" or "'he's shown enough ability with Dundalk, we need someone who knows the 21s and the team is starting to play some good stuff". But on an internet forum....well.....there's no room for grey area.

That he's won over the crowds going to games is actually really encouraging and tells a story all on it's own.

Yeah, the middle ground & with it what makes this site such a pleasure to be part of was obliterated and it became noise vs counter noise. The story of the man, and his tenure as Ireland manager is in the middle somewhere but agendas as you say took over, merits & demerits were twisted to suit narrative & counter narrative. A pity.

[CraftyToePoke]

Are you asking for a poll on the poll?

I'd like to see a poll on that before giving my view..

I think Yes, No, Unsure but thinking no, and Unsure but thinking yes would do it? (Question being should he start the Euro qualification campaign as manager)

How about, is SK

A - a messianic Godhead of soccerball destined to be unappreciated in his own time a bit like Van Gogh
B - a modern day Houdini who goes home and just laughs solidly after every game
C - a three card trickster snake oil salesman of the lowest kind
D - an English spy

[ontheotherhand]

Did Randolph play in the 2020 nations league? Whelan was 36 and his legs were gone. Who would you have, Whelan or Cullen? Again, Kenny had virtually the same squad as McCarthy but with the addition of talented youngsters. Stronger squad but weaker results.

And at the end of the day that's the bottom line. We can give our opinions on whether the players are good enough etc but when it comes to results they are all fact based. The facts show that Kenny has overseen the worst spell of any Irish manager for decades. Worse than Staunton. He has had 4 failures as Irish manager and has come closer to rock bottom than top in all groups he's overseen. These facts can't be overlooked. We also have to look at the fall in our rankings, making it harder for future campaigns, along with the fall in revenue from repeated failures. This leaves his position untenable in my view and hopefully the FAI see it that way as well.


I'd have premiership regulars or even players who had gotten to that level and who still had enough in the tank over what we have now if I was prioritizing short term results. Most people would I'd think?

Interesting use of time complexities there.... Cullen now v Whelan then is it? Or Cullen then v Whelan then? Or Whelan now vs Cullen when his legs are going? Kenny "had virtually the same squad with the addition of talented youngsters"? No he didn't. Time matters. Mick got the last best efforts of the old guard. He did ok in doing so. But they were spent by the time Kenny took over and they soon departed the scene. We all knew there would be a drop when the last of our decent players bit the dust. Even lads like Duffy who might have played a big part had issues that kept them from doing son.

You'd be more interesting to discuss things with if you didn't say you were stating facts when you weren't by the way. You were stating your opinions. SkStu gave you the facts. Mick's squad had more players playing at a higher level and with more experience so that in my opinion made his team stronger. As I said, he had a spine of proper senior footballers. We don't now. We have one or two defenders with experience and it shows when we switch off.

You're also putting a lot of pressure on this young and developed talent that Kenny has available all of a sudden. Are you claiming the players we have coming through, who are on loan at Championship or L1 level are of elite international quality already? What manager could possibly have gotten them to that level so quickly given they haven't had consistent club mgmt?

[CraftyToePoke]

Well I've used facts to show that Kenny has had a similar level squad to his predecessor and now has a superior squad to his predecessor.

Well no, no you haven't Boomers. You have given an opinion, which you would like to be factual, very much I'm sure. But it remains an opinion, one which you are very much entitled to hold but not as far as to present it as fact re respective squad comparability.

This is where you let yourself down & we look for more personal growth in your contributions, and can see you are trying. Very.

But they remain opinions.

[Bielsa´s irish]

How about, is SK

A - a messianic Godhead of soccerball destined to be unappreciated in his own time a bit like Van Gogh
B - a modern day Houdini who goes home and just laughs solidly after every game
C - a three card trickster snake oil salesman of the lowest kind
D - an English spy

D of course. Get an honest spanish speaking football manager.

[weldoninhio]

I'd have premiership regulars or even players who had gotten to that level and who still had enough in the tank over what we have now if I was prioritizing short term results. Most people would I'd think?

Interesting use of time complexities there.... Cullen now v Whelan then is it? Or Cullen then v Whelan then? Or Whelan now vs Cullen when his legs are going? Kenny "had virtually the same squad with the addition of talented youngsters"? No he didn't. Time matters. Mick got the last best efforts of the old guard. He did ok in doing so. But they were spent by the time Kenny took over and they soon departed the scene. We all knew there would be a drop when the last of our decent players bit the dust. Even lads like Duffy who might have played a big part had issues that kept them from doing son.

You'd be more interesting to discuss things with if you didn't say you were stating facts when you weren't by the way. You were stating your opinions. SkStu gave you the facts. Mick's squad had more players playing at a higher level and with more experience so that in my opinion made his team stronger. As I said, he had a spine of proper senior footballers. We don't now. We have one or two defenders with experience and it shows when we switch off.

You're also putting a lot of pressure on this young and developed talent that Kenny has available all of a sudden. Are you claiming the players we have coming through, who are on loan at Championship or L1 level are of elite international quality already? What manager could possibly have gotten them to that level so quickly given they haven't had consistent club mgmt?

Elite international quality hahahahhahahahahahaha.

What a ridiculous comment. Anyone playing regularly at League 1 and especially Championship level should be ready for international football, especially at the level Ireland play.

Bulgaria - not elite, poor
Finland - not elite, poor
Slovakia - not elite, average
Wales - not elite, average
Finland -not elite, poor
England second string - semi-elite
Wales -not elite, average
Bulgaria - not elite, poor
Serbia - not elite, average
Luxembourg - not elite, poor
Qatar - not elite, poor
Andorra - not elite, terrible
Hungary - not elite, average
Portugal - elite
Azerbaijan - not elite, poor
Qatar - not elite, poor
Portugal - elite
Luxembourg - not elite, poor
Belgium - second string but elite
Lithuania - not elite, poor
Armenia - not elite, poor
Ukraine - not elite, average
Scotland - not elite, average
Ukraine - not elite, average
Scotland - not elite, average
Armenia - not elite, poor

We?ve played one elite team, and 2 elite teams second strings.

[Exgrad]

Theyre no great shakes Bill.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I'd have premiership regulars or even players who had gotten to that level and who still had enough in the tank over what we have now if I was prioritizing short term results. Most people would I'd think?

Interesting use of time complexities there.... Cullen now v Whelan then is it? Or Cullen then v Whelan then? Or Whelan now vs Cullen when his legs are going? Kenny "had virtually the same squad with the addition of talented youngsters"? No he didn't. Time matters. Mick got the last best efforts of the old guard. He did ok in doing so. But they were spent by the time Kenny took over and they soon departed the scene. We all knew there would be a drop when the last of our decent players bit the dust. Even lads like Duffy who might have played a big part had issues that kept them from doing son.

You'd be more interesting to discuss things with if you didn't say you were stating facts when you weren't by the way. You were stating your opinions. SkStu gave you the facts. Mick's squad had more players playing at a higher level and with more experience so that in my opinion made his team stronger. As I said, he had a spine of proper senior footballers. We don't now. We have one or two defenders with experience and it shows when we switch off.

You're also putting a lot of pressure on this young and developed talent that Kenny has available all of a sudden. Are you claiming the players we have coming through, who are on loan at Championship or L1 level are of elite international quality already? What manager could possibly have gotten them to that level so quickly given they haven't had consistent club mgmt?

What are you talking about? Kenny took over when the players Mick used were in their prime, most of them between 27 and 29, Randolph was the oldest at 33. That's young these days as we see many players going later into their 30's than we've seen previously. On top of these players, he had a list of young players breaking through, I've already listed them (Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, O'Shea, Molumby, Idah, Obafemi, Knight, Ogbene). He couldn't have been dealt a better hand really. And I'm not even going to entertain this nonsense that because a player got relegated with a club he became a worse player. Collins got relegated with Burnley, does that mean he's a better player because he got signed by Wolves a few months later?

It's been vital for Kenny supporters to try to paint us as minnows, whipping boys with an aging squad in need of total transformation. The actual facts are that Kenny inherited a squad competing with top level teams like Denmark and Switzerland, he had an abundance of young players making breakthroughs with their clubs and he's made a complete balls of it. The evidence for this is the results and league tables. No amount of spinning from Kenny supporters can cover that up.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Well no, no you haven't Boomers. You have given an opinion, which you would like to be factual, very much I'm sure. But it remains an opinion, one which you are very much entitled to hold but not as far as to present it as fact re respective squad comparability.

This is where you let yourself down & we look for more personal growth in your contributions, and can see you are trying. Very.

But they remain opinions.

I've given the facts above again. Unfortunately for you zoomy, results and players ages aren't based on opinions. I can see that you're not a poster to debate honestly so I will see if I can figure out how to put you on my ignore list. Take care.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Elite international quality hahahahhahahahahahaha.

What a ridiculous comment. Anyone playing regularly at League 1 and especially Championship level should be ready for international football, especially at the level Ireland play.

Bulgaria - not elite, poor
Finland - not elite, poor
Slovakia - not elite, average
Wales - not elite, average
Finland -not elite, poor
England second string - semi-elite
Wales -not elite, average
Bulgaria - not elite, poor
Serbia - not elite, average
Luxembourg - not elite, poor
Qatar - not elite, poor
Andorra - not elite, terrible
Hungary - not elite, average
Portugal - elite
Azerbaijan - not elite, poor
Qatar - not elite, poor
Portugal - elite
Luxembourg - not elite, poor
Belgium - second string but elite
Lithuania - not elite, poor
Armenia - not elite, poor
Ukraine - not elite, average
Scotland - not elite, average
Ukraine - not elite, average
Scotland - not elite, average
Armenia - not elite, poor

We?ve played one elite team, and 2 elite teams second strings.

When you list it like that, it really shows how bad Kenny's record has been.

P 28 W 7 D 11 L 10

For comparison, his predecessor played against 2 elite teams home and away and only lost 1 game.

[Jd2793]

serbia were much better than portugal.

[pineapple stu]

They blow hot and cold in fairness (as do Portugal I guess), but yeah, if the scale is elite -> average -> poor -> terrible, it's about the only one I'd query (along with Finland, who should be average, not poor)

But I think the point is still valid that we have faced very few top sides given the two Nations League campaigns and England/Belgium changing a full XI against us.

[tetsujin1979]

Poll opened
https://foot.ie/threads/278358-Stephen-Kenny-vote-of-confidence-Third-referendum

[tetsujin1979]

They blow hot and cold in fairness (as do Portugal I guess), but yeah, if the scale is elite -> average -> poor -> terrible, it's about the only one I'd query (along with Finland, who should be average, not poor)

But I think the point is still valid that we have faced very few top sides given the two Nations League campaigns and England/Belgium changing a full XI against us.

There's a big gap between Elite and Average IMO
From the FIFA rankings - https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/men?dateId=id13750 - I reckon that you could have the top 15 in the world as elite, the next 20(ie ranked 16-35) as good, the next 30(36-65) as average, then the remainder split between poor (66-100) and terrible (> 100)

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Just basing it on the current world rankings linked above because I don't know how to find out past rankings. These are the rankings of the 7 teams we've managed to beat under Kenny:

Scotland 45
Qatar 48
Armenia 92
Luxembourg 93
Azerbaijan 128
Lithuania 142
Andorra 152

[ontheotherhand]

Elite international quality hahahahhahahahahahaha.

What a ridiculous comment. Anyone playing regularly at League 1 and especially Championship level should be ready for international football, especially at the level Ireland play.

Bulgaria - not elite, poor
Finland - not elite, poor
Slovakia - not elite, average
Wales - not elite, average
Finland -not elite, poor
England second string - semi-elite
Wales -not elite, average
Bulgaria - not elite, poor
Serbia - not elite, average
Luxembourg - not elite, poor
Qatar - not elite, poor
Andorra - not elite, terrible
Hungary - not elite, average
Portugal - elite
Azerbaijan - not elite, poor
Qatar - not elite, poor
Portugal - elite
Luxembourg - not elite, poor
Belgium - second string but elite
Lithuania - not elite, poor
Armenia - not elite, poor
Ukraine - not elite, average
Scotland - not elite, average
Ukraine - not elite, average
Scotland - not elite, average
Armenia - not elite, poor

We?ve played one elite team, and 2 elite teams second strings.

A great example of why this place devolves into nonsense.

The argument was being made that we have a batch of wonderful talent coming through that makes our squad stronger than it was under McCarthy. A list of our recent opponents is at best a tangential response. Are you saying Kenny has played weaker teams so our young talent should be able to accelerate their development?

We are playing a L1 right back as our most creative midfielder and none of our strikers are in any way developed. We have a 20 year old in goals and if we want to pick a more senior player we have to go with a lad who watches football from the bench most weeks. We have lost experience. Experience is important. We make stupid mistakes and concede stupid goals out of nowhere due to a lack of it. Do you need a whiteboard session?

Nobody is arguing that Kenny still shouldn't be beating some of the teams you've listed off in your response. If you actually read the thread and responded in good faith it would make for a more a more interesting debate.

As I said earlier, I'd be ok if Kenny was replaced. I just don't know how much more another manager would get out of the current squad. It should be stronger in 2-3 years. At that point it might be a more tempting job. But we are relying on some key players going up a few levels. If we could coax an Anthony Barry or similar into taking the job I'd be up for that at this point. But at the moment, it's not an ideal role and we can't pay above the odds. Easier to just let it ride. We are getting decent shifts out of players who will be critical in 2024 - Bazunu, Collins, Egan, Cullen, Knight, Molumby, Obafemi....hopefully one or two others. It's the core of a team that might do something. It could still use some experience.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

A great example of why this place devolves into nonsense.

The argument was being made that we have a batch of wonderful talent coming through that makes our squad stronger than it was under McCarthy. A list of our recent opponents is at best a tangential response. Are you saying Kenny has played weaker teams so our young talent should be able to accelerate their development?

We are playing a L1 right back as our most creative midfielder and none of our strikers are in any way developed. We have a 20 year old in goals and if we want to pick a more senior player we have to go with a lad who watches football from the bench most weeks. We have lost experience. Experience is important. We make stupid mistakes and concede stupid goals out of nowhere due to a lack of it. Do you need a whiteboard session?

Nobody is arguing that Kenny still shouldn't be beating some of the teams you've listed off in your response. If you actually read the thread and responded in good faith it would make for a more a more interesting debate.

As I said earlier, I'd be ok if Kenny was replaced. I just don't know how much more another manager would get out of the current squad. It should be stronger in 2-3 years. At that point it might be a more tempting job. But we are relying on some key players going up a few levels. If we could coax an Anthony Barry or similar into taking the job I'd be up for that at this point. But at the moment, it's not an ideal role and we can't pay above the odds. Easier to just let it ride. We are getting decent shifts out of players who will be critical in 2024 - Bazunu, Collins, Egan, Cullen, Knight, Molumby, Obafemi....hopefully one or two others. It's the core of a team that might do something. It could still use some experience.

I'm not sure who this post was aimed at, you seem flustered.

Kenny inherited the same squad that McCarthy had. They were mostly between 27 and 29 when he took over. In their prime. He had the opportunity to blend the youngsters in with this squad for the past 2 years. It wasn't a rebuilding job the Kenny supporters are desperate to paint. The results from the teams we faced have been appalling, the teams have been listed for you by Weldoninho.

The right thing is for Kenny to be replaced. Trying to claim that no one else is available or wants the job is another tactic used by desperate Kenny supporters. It's nonsense just like the rest of the weak defence put forward for him.

[tetsujin1979]

Just basing it on the current world rankings linked above because I don't know how to find out past rankings. These are the rankings of the 7 teams we've managed to beat under Kenny:

Scotland 45
Qatar 48
Armenia 92
Luxembourg 93
Azerbaijan 128
Lithuania 142
Andorra 152

The date drop down box on the right on the world rankings shows the dates each of the previous rankings were announced.
To get the ranking of a side on a particular date, select the nearest date before that date
e.g. the 3-0 win over Scotland was Saturday, 11th June 2022.
From the drop down box on the rankings page, the last rankings before that date were announced on 31 Mar 2022 - Scotland were 39th, we were 47th

[pineapple stu]

Eloratings.net also has a list of all matches with the rankings afterwards noted, as well as the movement from the match, so you can quickly work out the ranking before the match

[ontheotherhand]

I'm not sure who this post was aimed at, you seem flustered.

Kenny inherited the same squad that McCarthy had. They were mostly between 27 and 29 when he took over. In their prime. He had the opportunity to blend the youngsters in with this squad for the past 2 years. It wasn't a rebuilding job the Kenny supporters are desperate to paint. The results from the teams we faced have been appalling, the teams have been listed for you by Weldoninho.

The right thing is for Kenny to be replaced. Trying to claim that no one else is available or wants the job is another tactic used by desperate Kenny supporters. It's nonsense just like the rest of the weak defence put forward for him.

I replied to the post it was aimed at. Why did that confuse you?

That you don't recognize we had a rebuild on the cards says a lot about your ability to comprehend the situation to be honest. Who are these players in their prime that Kenny had by the way? Hendrick? Not exactly a lad I'd build a team around.

We lost experience and the job was to replace that with unproven players, some with a lot of potential but all with very few games under their belts. If you think Mick would have done better while sliding the FAI into further debt that's grand. I don't. He gets sacked everywhere he goes for a reason and the football he plays wouldn't have suited what we currently have. We have no centre forward to hold the ball up and Duffy went off the boil for a long time. It's debatable that he's even back to the levels he was at under Mick when we relied on him so much. It's a moot point anyway. We can't afford to hire Mick or anyone like him......although at this stage maybe he'd do it for free just to keep busy.

I would replace Kenny now if someone popped up who we could afford, who would do a better job of making sure our lack of experience doesn't cough up long range goals from the right side of midfield. That's an actual issue we have that needs a response and Kenny or the players seem unable to adjust for it. For me that's down to a lack of experience in midfield and defence. Even Whelan at 36 with no legs would do a better job of closing down those Armenian attacks. Arguably the best of the young talent Kenny has at his disposal that you claim to be better than what Mick had actually operate in that area i.e. Collins, Cullen, Molumby and yet here we are having conceded multiple goals like that against poor teams. Why? Do you think Kenny tells the team to switch off for periods in games? Or could it be that they are either not that great or not that experienced yet?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

The date drop down box on the right on the world rankings shows the dates each of the previous rankings were announced.
To get the ranking of a side on a particular date, select the nearest date before that date
e.g. the 3-0 win over Scotland was Saturday, 11th June 2022.
From the drop down box on the rankings page, the last rankings before that date were announced on 31 Mar 2022 - Scotland were 39th, we were 47th

Thanks. So to update my post, the rankings of the teams Kenny has beaten:

Scotland 39
Qatar 43
Armenia 92
Luxembourg 94
Azerbaijan 119
Lithuania 137
Andorra 158

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I replied to the post it was aimed at. Why did that confuse you?

That you don't recognize we had a rebuild on the cards says a lot about your ability to comprehend the situation to be honest. Who are these players in their prime that Kenny had by the way? Hendrick? Not exactly a lad I'd build a team around.

We lost experience and the job was to replace that with unproven players, some with a lot of potential but all with very few games under their belts. If you think Mick would have done better while sliding the FAI into further debt that's grand. I don't. He gets sacked everywhere he goes for a reason and the football he plays wouldn't have suited what we currently have. We have no centre forward to hold the ball up and Duffy went off the boil for a long time. It's debatable that he's even back to the levels he was at under Mick when we relied on him so much. It's a moot point anyway. We can't afford to hire Mick or anyone like him......although at this stage maybe he'd do it for free just to keep busy.

I would replace Kenny now if someone popped up who we could afford, who would do a better job of making sure our lack of experience doesn't cough up long range goals from the right side of midfield. That's an actual issue we have that needs a response and Kenny or the players seem unable to adjust for it. For me that's down to a lack of experience in midfield and defence. Even Whelan at 36 with no legs would do a better job of closing down those Armenian attacks. Arguably the best of the young talent Kenny has at his disposal that you claim to be better than what Mick had actually operate in that area i.e. Collins, Cullen, Molumby and yet here we are having conceded multiple goals like that against poor teams. Why? Do you think Kenny tells the team to switch off for periods in games? Or could it be that they are either not that great or not that experienced yet?

You're just all over the place here, not really putting a coherent argument together.

Why was a rebuild needed? Didn't we come just behind Denmark and Switzerland in nearly qualifying for Euro 2020? So you're trying to claim that McCarthy had a better squad than Kenny but questioning the ability of Hendrick but also saying Kenny lacked experienced players. You have yourself in a jumble. The only player we lost was 36 year old Glenn Whelan.

I'm not saying we should have kept McCarthy, just that he demonstratively did a far superior job to Kenny. He did cost more but you know what they say about paying peanuts?

You seem to want to ignore that Kenny had all the players McCarthy had available to him apart from Whelan and most of those players were between 27 and 29. Here was the team that played Denmark just to remind you:

Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens, Browne, Hendrick, Whelan, Hourihane, McClean, McGoldrick.
Bench: Kevin Long, Clark, Parrott, Cullen, Byrne, Brady, Robinson, James Collins, O'Hara, Maguire, Travers, Judge.

They look familiar? Yes, Kenny has used them all (except Whelan and Judge?) and he's had Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, O'Shea, Molumby, Idah, Obafemi, Knight, Ogbene, Coleman and an improved Cullen post move to Anderlecht to select from.

He had a far stronger hand that McCarthy but has yet managed to turn a competitive team into a team battling it out with the minnows.

[ontheotherhand]

You're just all over the place here, not really putting a coherent argument together.

Why was a rebuild needed? Didn't we come just behind Denmark and Switzerland in nearly qualifying for Euro 2020? So you're trying to claim that McCarthy had a better squad than Kenny but questioning the ability of Hendrick but also saying Kenny lacked experienced players. You have yourself in a jumble. The only player we lost was 36 year old Glenn Whelan.

I'm not saying we should have kept McCarthy, just that he demonstratively did a far superior job to Kenny. He did cost more but you know what they say about paying peanuts?

You seem to want to ignore that Kenny had all the players McCarthy had available to him apart from Whelan and most of those players were between 27 and 29. Here was the team that played Denmark just to remind you:

Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens, Browne, Hendrick, Whelan, Hourihane, McClean, McGoldrick.
Bench: Kevin Long, Clark, Parrott, Cullen, Byrne, Brady, Robinson, James Collins, O'Hara, Maguire, Travers, Judge.

They look familiar? Yes, Kenny has used them all (except Whelan and Judge?) and he's had Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, O'Shea, Molumby, Idah, Obafemi, Knight, Ogbene, Coleman and an improved Cullen post move to Anderlecht to select from.

He had a far stronger hand that McCarthy but has yet managed to turn a competitive team into a team battling it out with the minnows.

If you didn't understand the point just say that and ask for clarification. Here it is for you, underlined just in case - Mick had a more experienced group. Kenny has a less experienced group. Time passed and Mick's group got worse or retired, particularly in key areas and that shows on the field in the form of silly lapses in concentration and goals conceded.

All the players in bold fell off a cliff in the first years of Kenny's tenure for various reasons but mostly due to time passing. They are no longer good. They were decent then and certainly better and/or more experienced than what we have in their positions now. Kenny has been forced to use some of them precisely because your list of wondrous young talent isn't actually any better. Some play at the same level as Whelan and McGoldrick then but they are still short of many years of experience.

Now, before you misrepresent my post again, I'm not saying Kenny is doing a great job. I'd be fine if he was replaced. But you can't ignore the gap we had between the core group Mick had and the players coming through now. It wasn't exactly a secret that we had players coming to the end of the line who would need to be replaced. Part of the reason we were all hopeful for Kenny was that he had done well with the group that was coming next. Could another manager have done a better job? Absolutely, but the job needed to be done.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

If you didn't understand the point just say that and ask for clarification. Here it is for you, underlined just in case - Mick had a more experienced group. Kenny has a less experienced group. Time passed and Mick's group got worse or retired, particularly in key areas and that shows on the field in the form of silly lapses in concentration and goals conceded.

All the players in bold fell off a cliff in the first years of Kenny's tenure for various reasons but mostly due to time passing. They are no longer good. They were decent then and certainly better and/or more experienced than what we have in their positions now. Kenny has been forced to use some of them precisely because your list of wondrous young talent isn't actually any better. Some play at the same level as Whelan and McGoldrick then but they are still short of many years of experience.

Now, before you misrepresent my post again, I'm not saying Kenny is doing a great job. I'd be fine if he was replaced. But you can't ignore the gap we had between the core group Mick had and the players coming through now. It wasn't exactly a secret that we had players coming to the end of the line who would need to be replaced. Part of the reason we were all hopeful for Kenny was that he had done well with the group that was coming next. Could another manager have done a better job? Absolutely, but the job needed to be done.

How did Mick have a more experienced group? Kenny inherited the same squad minus 36 year old Glenn Whelan. These players were mostly between 27 and 29, at their peak. Mick had players like Hendrick who you don't rate but he got a performance out of them. They weren't coming to an end at all, that's just a myth perpetuated by Kenny supporters along with the whole rebuild myth. Kenny started that one after losing to Luxembourg. Just to demonstrate this point, here are the teams Kenny selected:

v bulgaria:
Darren Randolph Enda Stevens Shane Duffy John Egan Matt Doherty James McCarthy Adam Idah Jeff Hendrick Conor Hourihane Callum O'Dowda Aaron Connolly
v Finland
Darren Randolph; Enda Stevens, Shane Duffy John Egan, Matt Doherty; Robbie Brady, Harry Arter, Jayson Molumby; Callum O'Dowda Aaron Connolly Adam Idah
v Slovakia
Darren Randolph; Matt Doherty, Shane Duffy, John Egan, Enda Stevens; Jeff Hendrick, James McCarthy, Conor Hourihane; Callum Robinson, David McGoldrick, James McClean.
v Wales
Darren Randolph; Matt Doherty, Kevin Long Shane Duffy Enda Stevens; Conor Hourihane, Jeff Hendrick, Jayson Molumby Shane Long Robbie Brady James McClean
v Finland
Randolph; Doherty, Duffy (c), O'Shea, Stevens; Molumby, Hourihane, Horgan, Hendrick, Connolly; Maguire.
v England
Darren Randolph; Cyrus Christie, Matt Doherty, Shane Duffy, John Egan; Conor Hourihane, Jeff Hendrick, Alan Browne; Daryl Horgan, Callum O'Dowda, Adam Idah
v Wales
Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, O'Shea, Molumby, Hendrick, Horgan, Brady, McClean, Long, Idah
v Bulgaria
Darren Randolph; Ryan Manning, Kevin Long, Shane Duffy (capt), Dara O'Shea; Conor Hourihane, Jason Knight, Robbie Brady; Ronan Curtis, Daryl Horgan, James Collins.
v Serbia
Mark Travers; Seamus Coleman, Matt Doherty, Enda Stevens, Ciaran Clark, Dara O'Shea; Alan Browne, Jayson Molumby, Josh Cullen; Callum Robinson, Aaron Connolly.
v Luxembourg
Gavin Bazunu; Seamus Coleman, Dara O'Shea, Ciaran Clark; Matt Doherty, Enda Stevens, Josh Cullen, Jason Knight, Alan Browne; Callum Robinson, James Collins.

As you can see, there was no rebuild. It was basically the same team McCarthy was selecting. There was no talk of building for 2024, that only came after the defeat to Luxembourg which effectively knocked us out of World Cup qualification. Kenny supporters have ran with this line since. It's nonsense and he wasn't appointed by the FAI with this in mind but Kenny has many pals in the media and his supporters are hardcore (singing for him during embarrassing defeats for example). This has saved his job along with Anthony Barry coming on board to change the formation and improve tactical awareness.

[ontheotherhand]

How did Mick have a more experienced group? Kenny inherited the same squad minus 36 year old Glenn Whelan. These players were mostly between 27 and 29, at their peak. Mick had players like Hendrick who you don't rate but he got a performance out of them. They weren't coming to an end at all, that's just a myth perpetuated by Kenny supporters along with the whole rebuild myth. Kenny started that one after losing to Luxembourg. Just to demonstrate this point, here are the teams Kenny selected:

v bulgaria:
Darren Randolph Enda Stevens Shane Duffy John Egan Matt Doherty James McCarthy Adam Idah Jeff Hendrick Conor Hourihane Callum O'Dowda Aaron Connolly
v Finland
Darren Randolph; Enda Stevens, Shane Duffy John Egan, Matt Doherty; Robbie Brady, Harry Arter, Jayson Molumby; Callum O'Dowda Aaron Connolly Adam Idah
v Slovakia
Darren Randolph; Matt Doherty, Shane Duffy, John Egan, Enda Stevens; Jeff Hendrick, James McCarthy, Conor Hourihane; Callum Robinson, David McGoldrick, James McClean.
v Wales
Darren Randolph; Matt Doherty, Kevin Long Shane Duffy Enda Stevens; Conor Hourihane, Jeff Hendrick, Jayson Molumby Shane Long Robbie Brady James McClean
v Finland
Randolph; Doherty, Duffy (c), O'Shea, Stevens; Molumby, Hourihane, Horgan, Hendrick, Connolly; Maguire.
v England
Darren Randolph; Cyrus Christie, Matt Doherty, Shane Duffy, John Egan; Conor Hourihane, Jeff Hendrick, Alan Browne; Daryl Horgan, Callum O'Dowda, Adam Idah
v Wales
Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, O'Shea, Molumby, Hendrick, Horgan, Brady, McClean, Long, Idah
v Bulgaria
Darren Randolph; Ryan Manning, Kevin Long, Shane Duffy (capt), Dara O'Shea; Conor Hourihane, Jason Knight, Robbie Brady; Ronan Curtis, Daryl Horgan, James Collins.
v Serbia
Mark Travers; Seamus Coleman, Matt Doherty, Enda Stevens, Ciaran Clark, Dara O'Shea; Alan Browne, Jayson Molumby, Josh Cullen; Callum Robinson, Aaron Connolly.
v Luxembourg
Gavin Bazunu; Seamus Coleman, Dara O'Shea, Ciaran Clark; Matt Doherty, Enda Stevens, Josh Cullen, Jason Knight, Alan Browne; Callum Robinson, James Collins.

As you can see, there was no rebuild. It was basically the same team McCarthy was selecting. There was no talk of building for 2024, that only came after the defeat to Luxembourg which effectively knocked us out of World Cup qualification. Kenny supporters have ran with this line since. It's nonsense and he wasn't appointed by the FAI with this in mind but Kenny has many pals in the media and his supporters are hardcore (singing for him during embarrassing defeats for example). This has saved his job along with Anthony Barry coming on board to change the formation and improve tactical awareness.

Take off the tinfoil hat. If you think you're battling away against mysterious forces, you've usually just gone a bit too far in the wrong direction.

(http://https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/two-years-of-stephen-kenny-how-ireland-managers-scalpel-has-cut-deep-for-players-like-shane-long-41980854.html)If you didn't see what was going to happen as the experienced players declined and had to be replaced by less experienced players, that's grand. If you didn't anticipate that might have an effect on results, that's grand too. I don't need another list of names that proves my point for me.



(https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/two-years-of-stephen-kenny-how-ireland-managers-scalpel-has-cut-deep-for-players-like-shane-long-41980854.html)

[paul_oshea]

Be nice to OTOH shakal@ka he's one of the few that will play devils advocate with your valid points he's not afraid to express his own views and opinions : )

[ontheotherhand]

Be nice to OTOH shakal@ka he's one of the few that will play devils advocate with your valid points he's not afraid to express his own views and opinions : )

I'm scanning this for something to play devil's advocate with.....can you clean up the last line though Paul? I'm not sure if it's a compliment or an insult......

[geysir]

Armenia were beaten, albeit by the skin of our teeth, Kenny will be the manager for the euro qualifiers, all other talk is futile - blowing in the wind. The supporters are behind the team in a way we haven't seen before in this generation, the media are relatively supportive, the FAI are not going to sack Kenny. Any such talk of changing the manager is almost totally delusional. One can voice dissent, join the tinfoil hat brigade, even consider yourself as having a superior knowledge, craving for the 'I told you so' moment, but Ireland will have Kenny as manager for the next campaign.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Take off the tinfoil hat. If you think you're battling away against mysterious forces, you've usually just gone a bit too far in the wrong direction.

(http://https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/two-years-of-stephen-kenny-how-ireland-managers-scalpel-has-cut-deep-for-players-like-shane-long-41980854.html)If you didn't see what was going to happen as the experienced players declined and had to be replaced by less experienced players, that's grand. If you didn't anticipate that might have an effect on results, that's grand too. I don't need another list of names that proves my point for me.



(https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/two-years-of-stephen-kenny-how-ireland-managers-scalpel-has-cut-deep-for-players-like-shane-long-41980854.html)

You can keep sticking your fingers in your ears if you want, doesn't change the fact that Kenny inherited McCarthy's squad who were mostly between 27 and 29 and had an influx of youngsters making a breakthrough at their clubs. Also, there's no tinfoil hat, it's crazy that a manager with such an abysmal record has been let continue this long. No previous manager has been given this leeway.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Armenia were beaten, albeit by the skin of our teeth, Kenny will be the manager for the euro qualifiers, all other talk is futile - blowing in the wind. The supporters are behind the team in a way we haven't seen before in this generation, the media are relatively supportive, the FAI are not going to sack Kenny. Any such talk of changing the manager is almost totally delusional. One can voice dissent, join the tinfoil hat brigade, even consider yourself as having a superior knowledge, craving for the 'I told you so' moment, but Ireland will have Kenny as manager for the next campaign.

I think he'll still be manager but I have slim hopes that the FAI will end this farce. Kenny himself stated that he was aiming to win this Nations league group, results have been appalling. Apparently he got a contract extension with stipulations. Battling it out with Armenia is below the level expected. We can still hope that the right thing will be done. By the way, there's no 'I told you so' or any of that crap you mentioned. We all wanted Kenny to succeed but for a long time now he's proven not to be up to the job. Wanting us to compete for qualification is not pie in the sky stuff. We've done it for most of the last 40 years.

[weldoninhio]

A great example of why this place devolves into nonsense.

The argument was being made that we have a batch of wonderful talent coming through that makes our squad stronger than it was under McCarthy. A list of our recent opponents is at best a tangential response. Are you saying Kenny has played weaker teams so our young talent should be able to accelerate their development?

We are playing a L1 right back as our most creative midfielder and none of our strikers are in any way developed. We have a 20 year old in goals and if we want to pick a more senior player we have to go with a lad who watches football from the bench most weeks. We have lost experience. Experience is important. We make stupid mistakes and concede stupid goals out of nowhere due to a lack of it. Do you need a whiteboard session?

Nobody is arguing that Kenny still shouldn't be beating some of the teams you've listed off in your response. If you actually read the thread and responded in good faith it would make for a more a more interesting debate.

As I said earlier, I'd be ok if Kenny was replaced. I just don't know how much more another manager would get out of the current squad. It should be stronger in 2-3 years. At that point it might be a more tempting job. But we are relying on some key players going up a few levels. If we could coax an Anthony Barry or similar into taking the job I'd be up for that at this point. But at the moment, it's not an ideal role and we can't pay above the odds. Easier to just let it ride. We are getting decent shifts out of players who will be critical in 2024 - Bazunu, Collins, Egan, Cullen, Knight, Molumby, Obafemi....hopefully one or two others. It's the core of a team that might do something. It could still use some experience.

Nope, I?m arguing that young players good enough for the Championship or L1 are at a much higher standard than the vast majority of players on the teams we?ve played against.