Stephen Kenny

[Diggs246]

Weren't there similar comments by players in the media around the end of the Stan reign?
Of course. They are completely compromised,!!

[Fixer82]

Kenny had a good crack at it and it hasn't worked. I've said it here before, he doesn't have the charisma that can gee up the players when needed. McCarthy had it, O'Neill had it. Big Jack had it in spades. I just can't imagine Kenny giving an inspirational speech that would make players run through walls for him.

I wish him all the best cos i think he's a good guy but it just hasn't worked.
I don't know who I'd have in. Maybe Hughton if he wasn't already employed. But I'm at a loss. It's a bad state of affairs. Owen Coyle maybe? I really don't know!

[SkStu]

Of course. They are completely compromised,!!

Yeah...fair enough of course - its just that true feelings to the contrary have tended to get leaked under quite a few of the previous regimes.

[JR89]

Weren't there similar comments by players in the media around the end of the Stan reign?

Wouldn't Stan have been coaching a group that would have had a decent number of ex teammates since there was only 3.5yrs between him retiring and becoming manager.

[Colbert Report]

“pub league.” You can f##k right off with that attitude.

He is a pub league manager, though. The League of Ireland is a pub league. I'm not looking to wind anyone up, but the League of Ireland crowd on here need to wise up and face reality. Daryl Horgan was the best player in the league in 2016 and isn't good enough to play for a League 2 team in England. I've seen him play for Ireland and he looks like Bambi on ice. Sean Maguire, Michael Duffy, Jack Byrne, Georgie Kelly, Rory Gaffney. All named players of the year, all League 1 or League 2 quality players. And these were the BEST players in the country! Most years the LOI teams are out of Europe before the end of July, beaten by minnows in far off countries that don't produce good players. Nobody good enough to play in the fifth or sixth tier of English football would choose to stay and play in Ireland.

Stephen Kenny was relegated in his only season in charge of a professional football club in Scotland. He's such a nice guy, but not up to this. He needs to be let go so he can go back and coach amateur players at the League of Ireland level. Most of our players are Championship level in England, and they deserve a proper manager, not someone who got off the train at the wrong stop and somehow ended up with the job.

[Dave77]

Don’t think that’s fair comment at all. You say I’m not looking to wind anyone up but it’s a pub league. Pub league is lads who don’t train and get ****ed before/during and after match. LOI is not this so clearly it’s a wind up. I won’t even argue the rest of what you said. It’s amazing in Ireland, we must be the only country in the world who completely ignores our own football and slags it off at every opportunity.

I genuinely prefer talking to football fans from Holland, Scotland etc. who genuinely have an interest in domestic football in Ireland then irish Man U/pool fans

So Colbert Report you can **** off with pub league ****.

Lower standard fair enough but pub league is to get reaction

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, to say it's a pub league is just stupid. No mention of Séamus Coleman, James McClean, Kevin Doyle, even the current Ireland manager taking Dundalk to the brink of the Champions League group stages. It's probably around L2 level, which clearly isn't great but that's a point that can be made without going daft.

Kenny deserved his chance at the 21s and did a reasonable job there. Delaney's idea of appointing two managers at the same time was idiotic, but it's not unknown for a 21s manager to take over as senior manager in due course (Southgate the obvious example). And it hasn't worked out. Again, an argument that can be made without stupid hyperbole.

[2 Year Contract]

He is a pub league manager, though. The League of Ireland is a pub league. I'm not looking to wind anyone up, but the League of Ireland crowd on here need to wise up and face reality. Daryl Horgan was the best player in the league in 2016 and isn't good enough to play for a League 2 team in England. I've seen him play for Ireland and he looks like Bambi on ice. Sean Maguire, Michael Duffy, Jack Byrne, Georgie Kelly, Rory Gaffney. All named players of the year, all League 1 or League 2 quality players. And these were the BEST players in the country! Most years the LOI teams are out of Europe before the end of July, beaten by minnows in far off countries that don't produce good players. Nobody good enough to play in the fifth or sixth tier of English football would choose to stay and play in Ireland.

Stephen Kenny was relegated in his only season in charge of a professional football club in Scotland. He's such a nice guy, but not up to this. He needs to be let go so he can go back and coach amateur players at the League of Ireland level. Most of our players are Championship level in England, and they deserve a proper manager, not someone who got off the train at the wrong stop and somehow ended up with the job.

It’s rare enough that you’d see a post on here as long as this which tries to make so many different points yet is incorrect in pretty much everything it says. I would say congratulations but it’s pretty clear you did so deliberately. Get outside and enjoy the California sunshine :) It’ll surely be better for the head than deliberately trying to wind people up by knocking your own national football league by talking nonsense about it

[tetsujin1979]

Yeah, to say it's a pub league is just stupid. No mention of Séamus Coleman, James McClean, Kevin Doyle, even the current Ireland manager taking Dundalk to the brink of the Champions League group stages. It's probably around L2 level, which clearly isn't great but that's a point that can be made without going daft.

Kenny deserved his chance at the 21s and did a reasonable job there. Delaney's idea of appointing two managers at the same time was idiotic, but it's not unknown for a 21s manager to take over as senior manager in due course (Southgate the obvious example). And it hasn't worked out. Again, an argument that can be made without stupid hyperbole.

Southgate got the England job almost by default. Allardyce had been caught in a sting by one of the tabloids posing as potential buyers of a premier league club talking about how he could get transfers pushed through, and had to resign. The FA had to appoint someone fast, nobody was interested, so Southgate got promoted from their U21s.

[pineapple stu]

Fair enough, but there's similar at Spain - Suarez, Saez, Lopetegui and the current manager de la Fuente for example. All with the 21s before taking the senior role. Or Berti Vogts with Germany

[Diggs246]

Fair enough, but there's similar at Spain - Suarez, Saez, Lopetegui and the current manager de la Fuente for example. All with the 21s before taking the senior role. Or Berti Vogts with Germany

Did they have high level club experience before the u21?

Genuine question?

[John83]

Reasonable question. I sampled a couple at random.

Lopetegui (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julen_Lopetegui) had a year at Real Madrid B, and some years before that he managed Rayo Valecano for ten games and Spain's U17s. So not much, though at a decent but not exceptional level.

De la Fuente (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_de_la_Fuente_(footballer,_born_1961))'s career is a patchwork of youth teams and regional league gigs. One abbreviated season in Segunda Division B.

Looks to me like a strategy that's seeking value for money, and possibly adherence to a national strategy over personal stylistic preferences.

[pineapple stu]

Berti Vogts went straight in as 21s manager when he retired from playing, was there for 12 years (four of which he doubled up as national team assistant), and then was senior manager for the next eight years. So again, nothing there.

I suspect a club manager of any sort of high profile wouldn't go in as 21s boss. It's hard to get a feel for how common it is though as it's hard enough to find lists of historic U21 managers.

But to bring that back to the point I was making - the LoI isn't a pub league (but equally isn't a strong league); I think Kenny was deserving of a spell with the 21s, which can come with promotion to the seniors; I think Delaney was an idiot for effectively sacking McCarthy the day he appointed him (Kenny could maybe have benefitted from a longer stint as 21s boss); and ultimately I don't think it's worked out for Kenny and we need to be looking elsewhere.

Given budgets are a big issue - Mark Kennedy? Not a lot of club experience but seems to have done ok with Lincoln this season. League 1 unfortunately may be about our level for new managers.

[Diggs246]

Berti Vogts went straight in as 21s manager when he retired from playing, was there for 12 years (four of which he doubled up as national team assistant), and then was senior manager for the next eight years. So again, nothing there.

I suspect a club manager of any sort of high profile wouldn't go in as 21s boss. It's hard to get a feel for how common it is though as it's hard enough to find lists of historic U21 managers.

But to bring that back to the point I was making - the LoI isn't a pub league (but equally isn't a strong league); I think Kenny was deserving of a spell with the 21s, which can come with promotion to the seniors; I think Delaney was an idiot for effectively sacking McCarthy the day he appointed him (Kenny could maybe have benefitted from a longer stint as 21s boss); and ultimately I don't think it's worked out for Kenny and we need to be looking elsewhere.

Given budgets are a big issue - Mark Kennedy? Not a lot of club experience but seems to have done ok with Lincoln this season. League 1 unfortunately may be about our level for new managers.

Am I right in saying carsleys contract with the u21s is up soon?

Also he has a bad run recently but defo has something in his locker ...Chris wilder?

I fear John o Shea will get the rest of this campaign.

[JR89]

Carsley's contract is up this summer I believe but he's been meh with an U21s team that should have blown through teams in qualification and would likely beat our seniors. Can't imagine him doing much better with Ireland.

[Diggs246]

Carsley's contract is up this summer I believe but he's been meh with an U21s team that should have blown through teams in qualification and would likely beat our seniors. Can't imagine him doing much better with Ireland.

You might be right, but its more then time to discuss kennys replacement.
If we win 4-0 does that mean he has the two games in September?

[Trequartista20]

Kenny was promised the Ireland senior managererial position before he took over as U-21 manager. This is completely different to earning promotion to the top job as a result of successes achieved at underage level, as was the case with Brian Kerr.

One of the foundational tenets of the Kennyite mythology is that he did an exceptionally good and indeed transformative job with the Irish Under-21 team, in doing so, forming an unshakable bond with an emerging crop of talented young players that would benefit the national team for years to come, and his elevation to the senior position being therefore fully merited. In fact he took charge of just a dozen U-21 matches, winning just over half those. I believe only seven of those twelve being competitive games.

Southgate, who already had experience managing in the Premier League, managed the England U-21s for three years and 37 matches, enjoying a 73% win rate. So, not really comparable with the Kenny situation at all.

The idea that the LoI is on a par with EFL League Two seems an enormous stretch to me. For a start, League Two, in contrast to the Irish Premier Division is fully professional. By pretty much every conceivable metric from wages to stadia to training facilities to finances to transfer fees to average attendances to highest attendances to standard of play, League Two appears to be of a vastly superior standard to the semi-professional and largely amateurish and mismanaged LoI.

An exceptional case, but Bradford City had average attendances of over 18,000 last season.

In this article Damien Duff talks about wanting to improve his side by signing two or three experienced players for 1,200 euros a week but not being able to afford to do so. The average wage in League Two is about 3,000 euros.

The minimum wage for those players who are on full-time contracts of €430 per week. Many players have second jobs and have to sign on to the dole in the off-season.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2023/02/11/progress-on-contracts-and-salaries-in-league-of-ireland-but-more-to-do/

The LoI Champions receive €125,000 in prize money, with the bottom side receiving €22,000. Each League Two side receives £473,000 (about €550,000) from the EFL plus £430,000 in 'solidarity payments' from the Premier League. The difference is stark.

So while talking about the LoI as pub league isn't perhaps quite fair, neither is a belief that it's on the same level as the EFL. Indeed I believe John Sheridan's assessment of the league was indeed that it was a 'pub league'. And that as someone who'd managed in both the EFL and the Irish Premier Division.

[pineapple stu]

The idea that the LoI is on a par with EFL League Two seems an enormous stretch to me. For a start, League Two, in contrast to the Irish Premier Division is fully professional. By pretty much every conceivable metric from wages to stadia to training facilities to finances to transfer fees to average attendances to highest attendances to standard of play, League Two appears to be of a vastly superior standard to the semi-professional and largely amateurish and mismanaged LoI.
It's a topic for a different thread I guess, but if nothing else the LoI doesn't fit neatly into any one division in England. UCD certainly aren't League Two for example, and aren't even Conference.

There's certainly a huge financial difference between L2 and the majority of the LoI, but then the top LoI sides get European money which L2 sides don't, and that'll balance things out a bit. Facilities here are way behind for sure, as is stuff like underage structures.

I've always found this chart (https://twitter.com/AndyForrester1/status/1446047884751867905) quite reasonable; positions the LoI closer to L2 than to the Conference, but the nature of a smaller league is that it'll stretch more, at both ends.

[Razors left peg]

https://extra.ie/2023/06/18/sport/soccernews/stephen-kenny-not-concerned-about-position-with-allardyce-linked-to-interim-role

Sam Allardyce being linked with the role. THIS is why so many have backed Kenny I think. The alternative is not what clever manager might be out there, it's the knowledge that the FAI are incompetent enough to appointment Allardyce

[JR89]

You might be right, but its more then time to discuss kennys replacement.
If we win 4-0 does that mean he has the two games in September?

The only way imo that the FAI replace him pre September is if he doesn't win tonight. Holland at home will be the deciding game if they do decide they can replace him mid campaign.

[Diggs246]

Can you imagine if we somehow get a play off and they leave him insitu

[JR89]

Can you imagine if we somehow get a play off and they leave him insitu

Don't think they would. While his contract is up until the end of the 2024 Euros you often see managers moved on once the qualifiers are over. If the FAI were smart enough to have a get out clause post Nations League they surely are smart enough to have another get out clause for the qualifiers. Not like Kenny had much bargaining power post WC qualifiers or other options to walk away from a contract full of performance clauses.

[EalingGreen]

I think Kenny was deserving of a spell with the 21s, which can come with promotion to the seniors; Dunno whether its any relevance, but Baraclough did a decent job woth NI's U-21's, but ultimately wasn't up to the Senior job.

They're different jobs and while it's possible for someone to have the skill sets required for both, it's not automatic.

[tetsujin1979]

Can you imagine if we somehow get a play off and they leave him insitu
TBF if he gets to a play off, he deserves to stay on and contest it.

[pineapple stu]

Even if we get just six points from the group? (Or less!)

Mick didn't get to contest his playoff.

[Diggs246]

TBF if he gets to a play off, he deserves to stay on and contest it.

We could lose every game and still get a play off?

[EalingGreen]

Am I right in saying carsleys contract with the u21s is up soon? Dunno the answer, but if was available, then hed be an excellebt choice (imo).

After he was caretaker manager at Brentford, they were very keen indeed to give him the job permanently, and their record in appointing managers is excellent. However, since he had a disabled child, he needed to be near his family home in the Midlands (Birmingham?) and so couldn't commit. Instead he took a job with the English FA, since he could work out of St.George's Park.

His son is now an adult, so I believe LC may be open to offers from other locations now? Though tbf, he could do the ROI job from England without needing to relocate to Ireland.

[Razors left peg]

Do home wins vs Holland and Greece save him? Or have we reached a point where we are so deluded as a footballing nation that anything less than qualifying from a group of France, Holland and Greece is seen as disaster.

In this group so far we have lost to a team who were WC finalists 3 months previous but we played pretty well, we had a poor performance away in Greece at a time of year that we are historically sh1te, but Greece also have a good home record.

Like it or not we are still rebuilding a squad with lads mainly 22 and under. The likes of Hendrick and Hourihane all being phased out like we all wanted. Yet we are demanding results, I'm not sure any of our best teams in our history would have guaranteed wins in these opening 2 fixtures.

I've been Kenny out for a while. My biggest complaint was always his decision making and in game management. In these 2 games I've agreed with the lineups and even the subs so I think he's improved. I want to see how rest of group plays out... barring disaster vs Gibraltar today

[JR89]

Do home wins vs Holland and Greece save him? Or have we reached a point where we are so deluded as a footballing nation that anything less than qualifying from a group of France, Holland and Greece is seen as disaster.

In this group so far we have lost to a team who were WC finalists 3 months previous but we played pretty well, we had a poor performance away in Greece at a time of year that we are historically sh1te, but Greece also have a good home record.

Like it or not we are still rebuilding a squad with lads mainly 22 and under. The likes of Hendrick and Hourihane all being phased out like we all wanted. Yet we are demanding results, I'm not sure any of our best teams in our history would have guaranteed wins in these opening 2 fixtures.

I've been Kenny out for a while. My biggest complaint was always his decision making and in game management. In these 2 games I've agreed with the lineups and even the subs so I think he's improved. I want to see how rest of group plays out... barring disaster vs Gibraltar today

Possibly, that situation could set up a do or die game in Holland for potential qualification. Assuming obviously you're on 12 points then going into that final game. It's why I think September the earliest is when they'd get rid of him to just see what happens in that home game with Holland. We'll likely lose it or scrape a draw at best but they'll wait and see either way.

[EalingGreen]

Kenny was promised the Ireland senior managererial position before he took over as U-21 manager. This is completely different to earning promotion to the top job as a result of successes achieved at underage level, as was the case with Brian Kerr.

One of the foundational tenets of the Kennyite mythology is that he did an exceptionally good and indeed transformative job with the Irish Under-21 team, in doing so, forming an unshakable bond with an emerging crop of talented young players that would benefit the national team for years to come, and his elevation to the senior position being therefore fully merited. In fact he took charge of just a dozen U-21 matches, winning just over half those. I believe only seven of those twelve being competitive games.

Southgate, who already had experience managing in the Premier League, managed the England U-21s for three years and 37 matches, enjoying a 73% win rate. So, not really comparable with the Kenny situation at all.

The idea that the LoI is on a par with EFL League Two seems an enormous stretch to me. For a start, League Two, in contrast to the Irish Premier Division is fully professional. By pretty much every conceivable metric from wages to stadia to training facilities to finances to transfer fees to average attendances to highest attendances to standard of play, League Two appears to be of a vastly superior standard to the semi-professional and largely amateurish and mismanaged LoI.

An exceptional case, but Bradford City had average attendances of over 18,000 last season.

In this article Damien Duff talks about wanting to improve his side by signing two or three experienced players for 1,200 euros a week but not being able to afford to do so. The average wage in League Two is about 3,000 euros.

The minimum wage for those players who are on full-time contracts of €430 per week. Many players have second jobs and have to sign on to the dole in the off-season.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2023/02/11/progress-on-contracts-and-salaries-in-league-of-ireland-but-more-to-do/

The LoI Champions receive €125,000 in prize money, with the bottom side receiving €22,000. Each League Two side receives £473,000 (about €550,000) from the EFL plus £430,000 in 'solidarity payments' from the Premier League. The difference is stark.

So while talking about the LoI as pub league isn't perhaps quite fair, neither is a belief that it's on the same level as the EFL. Indeed I believe John Sheridan's assessment of the league was indeed that it was a 'pub league'. And that as someone who'd managed in both the EFL and the Irish Premier Division.Interesting comparison. Note also that the EFL Lge Two has 24 teams, all f-t, compared with 10 LOI PD teams, not all f-t (plus 10 largely p-t, eve amateur FD clubs).

While the 24 team National League (5th tier) is nearly all f-t, with quite a few teams in the 6th tier also f-t. With such enormous depth, those English clubs have to be a different level, one or two teams like Shamrock Rovers or Dundalk nowithstanding.

[weldoninhio]

Do home wins vs Holland and Greece save him? Or have we reached a point where we are so deluded as a footballing nation that anything less than qualifying from a group of France, Holland and Greece is seen as disaster.

In this group so far we have lost to a team who were WC finalists 3 months previous but we played pretty well, we had a poor performance away in Greece at a time of year that we are historically sh1te, but Greece also have a good home record.

Like it or not we are still rebuilding a squad with lads mainly 22 and under. The likes of Hendrick and Hourihane all being phased out like we all wanted. Yet we are demanding results, I'm not sure any of our best teams in our history would have guaranteed wins in these opening 2 fixtures.

I've been Kenny out for a while. My biggest complaint was always his decision making and in game management. In these 2 games I've agreed with the lineups and even the subs so I think he's improved. I want to see how rest of group plays out... barring disaster vs Gibraltar today

But we aren't looking at "in this group so far". We're looking at the past 3 years and defeats to Luxembourg, Armenia, Finland, Ukraine, Norway. Draws against Bulgaria, Qatar, Azerbaijan.

Kenny is done, we've gone from one goal away from qualification in Micks last campaign, to out after 2 games in each of Kenny's qualifying tournaments. We're currently looking at Gibraltar as a potential banana skin things have gotten so bad. He needs to go, and go now. Badly out of his depth, as he was from the beginning when anyone calling out the emperors new clothes, was told that Kenny needed time. He's had time and he's dragged us down the rankings and the pots.

[geysir]

It’s so difficult to reconcile Doherty’s comments with what is playing out right in front of our eyes.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2023/06/17/matt-doherty-backs-under-fire-stephen-kenny-following-republic-of-ireland-defeat-to-greece/
From what I saw, Matt gave the Greek player a nudge, shoulder to shoulder and he hit the ground in agony clutching his face. The greek players erupted, the pony tailed one in particular was red card agressive. In this case I’m with Matt.
https://youtu.be/j9G0MNgAP5Y?t=123

[zero]

Do home wins vs Holland and Greece save him? Or have we reached a point where we are so deluded as a footballing nation that anything less than qualifying from a group of France, Holland and Greece is seen as disaster.



I think everyone is aware it was a very difficult draw - it's more the lack of progress and the consistent terrible results that have left many thinking his time is up. In addition we seem to have lost the ability to keep a clean sheet against anything other than the most modest opposition. There is absolutely nothing to suggest he could manage wins over Holland and Greece. The only good win he has had really was the Scotland home game when everything went for us on the day and they didn't really show up.

Having said that I fully expect him to remain in charge at least until September. The campaign is beyond salvaging (again!) so the remaining games are little more than friendlies as far as Ireland is concerned. His contract ends in November so getting rid now means paying out 5ish months versus just a couple if waiting til Sept. What possibly could change that is if Carsley leaves his post after the u21 tournament and is keen but not so keen that he'd wait around...

edit: obviously the other scenario, which one would normally consider the unthinkable i.e. failing to beat Gibraltar. That would surely make his position untenable, with him being paid off and a caretaker put in charge.

[Exgrad]

Even if we get just six points from the group? (Or less!)

Mick didn't get to contest his playoff.

Well it was Martin O'Neills play off really wasnt it?

[Fixer82]

Well it was Martin O'Neills play off really wasnt it?

No, it was Mick's play-off. He should've been allowed complete that campaign

[Exgrad]

No, it was Mick's play-off. He should've been allowed complete that campaign

How was it his play off?

[Diggs246]

No, it was Mick's play-off. He should've been allowed complete that campaign

He took a million lids and ran you mean!

[pineapple stu]

Well it was Martin O'Neills play off really wasnt it?

Well yeah - we qualified based on MON's placing in the Nations League I guess. Which even more backs up the view that Kenny isn't entitled to taking charge for the playoff by rights

[Exgrad]

Yes its the lack of progress that gets me, Friday night was on par with Luxemburg at home, possibly worse as for most of the Friday we just played hoof ball, or else went sideways and backwards. Had a quick look at the starting 11 against Luxemburg and only 2 outfield starters from that game started Friday, Doherty and Cullen. Not sure what that says, other than Kenny has managed to get absolutley dreadful performances out of pretty much two different teams. I think his best performance was Slovakia away in the play off.

[dahamsta]

He is a pub league manager, though. The League of Ireland is a pub league. I'm not looking to wind anyone up, but the League of Ireland crowd on here need to wise up and face reality.

While I don't disagree that the LOI is in many ways an embarrassment, it's literally not a pub league, and we both know that posting in that manner will wind people up. You're welcome to discuss the professionalism of the league all you want, but not like that. Don't do it again please.

[Razors left peg]

Yes its the lack of progress that gets me, Friday night was on par with Luxemburg at home, possibly worse as for most of the Friday we just played hoof ball, or else went sideways and backwards. Had a quick look at the starting 11 against Luxemburg and only 2 outfield starters from that game started Friday, Doherty and Cullen. Not sure what that says, other than Kenny has managed to get absolutley dreadful performances out of pretty much two different teams. I think his best performance was Slovakia away in the play off.

Little bit of perspective though. It was not Luxembourg, it was Greece in Greece who have a much better footballing history and culture than us. We lost by 1 goal, not a hammering. It was poor performance yes, but in isolation not a disaster.

Of course the previous bad results against the likes of Luxembourg is the killer, but you said it yourself, 9 changes in that time. The age profile of the squad is very young and I do still think we will improve as the squad ages. I felt before this campaign that Kenny may not be around to see the fruits of these players maturing, but I think our impatience for results needs to be tempered slightly. I'll just use Troy Parrott as a small example. Some are ready to write him off as a bust, it's crossed my own mind at times... but he's 21, a baby, and yet we are expecting the likes of him to compete against some of thr best footballing nations in the world. Idah was awful in Greece, I seen people say since that he is just crap and should never play for us again (not here, the cretins on social media), but he's only 22. Harry Kane was still going on loan and being average at that age.

Anyway, my overall point is that Kenny probably isn't the right man at this point, too many mistakes have been made, but I'm less in the out camp now than I was before this group started.

[pineapple stu]

Little bit of perspective though. It was not Luxembourg, it was Greece in Greece who have a much better footballing history and culture than us. We lost by 1 goal, not a hammering. It was poor performance yes, but in isolation not a disaster.

Of course the previous bad results against the likes of Luxembourg is the killer, but you said it yourself, 9 changes in that time.
It's more than just Luxembourg and Greece though. Latvia H - started great, they made a tweak and we were struggling for the last hour. Malta A - appalling stuff; completely unable to dictate the game against a side who brought on an LoI flop in the second half. Norway H (without Haaland) - unimpressive at best. Armenia H - shat the bed for the last half hour and for the last 15 minutes the next goal - deciding who'd be relegated - was looking like coming from Armenia, not us. Scotland A - not great. And the 2-1 scoreline in Greece shouldn't mask how bad a performance it was.

I agree with Exgrad when he says it's the lack of progress that's the main issue. There's no progress there. And if you go further back, the list goes on - losing to Armenia and Ukraine B. The 95th minute winner against Lithuania.

Probably the only good games were Slovakia A, Azerbaijan A, Scotland H and Ukraine A. We played well in parts against Belgium B and Luxembourg away, and had some heroic defending against Serbia (H) and Portugal (A), but that's rarely enough to win a game.

[Razors left peg]

It's more than just Luxembourg and Greece though. Latvia H - started great, they made a tweak and we were struggling for the last hour. Malta A - appalling stuff; completely unable to dictate the game against a side who brought on an LoI flop in the second half. Norway H (without Haaland) - unimpressive at best. Armenia H - shat the bed for the last half hour and for the last 15 minutes the next goal - deciding who'd be relegated - was looking like coming from Armenia, not us. Scotland A - not great. And the 2-1 scoreline in Greece shouldn't mask how bad a performance it was.

I agree with Exgrad when he says it's the lack of progress that's the main issue. There's no progress there. And if you go further back, the list goes on - losing to Armenia and Ukraine B. The 95th minute winner against Lithuania.

Probably the only good games were Slovakia A, Azerbaijan A, Scotland H and Ukraine A. We played well in parts against Belgium B and Luxembourg away, and had some heroic defending against Serbia (H) and Portugal (A), but that's rarely enough to win a game.

I was furious myself after a lot of those games you mention, however I still think my overall point about the squad profile changing dramatically in the last few years accounts for some of those results. Yes, I believe that Kenny was cause of some of them with poor decision making. I'm not trying to be the last man standing here defending him against all logic, but I also think some of the rhetoric of the last few days has been disgraceful. We can't just start demanding we win games because we are sick of losing. I look at the 2 games of this campaign so far in isolation and I think the manager has done the right things and I don't know what other manager would have done better.

France we've discussed to death, Kenny got it as right as he could have I thought. Greece, they tried to prepare as well as possible. Training camps, good brave team picked, right subs and not too late. Players didn't perform though. I don't necessarily blame the manager for them not being able to make simple passes. Cullen looked a different player. Is that Kenny's fault or is it that our players are always less sharp in fixtures this time of year? Maybe it's both.

[pineapple stu]

The squad is definitely weak and that's a big factor. There's a lot of young players and I don't think that helps. And for all we talk up our players here whenever they score a goal or make a pass or whatever, it's the worst squad we've ever had. We've no-one close to CL level. We've hardly anyone in the top flight of any domestic league. We've had a lot of new players coming in. These are definitely factors. A win in Greece was not something we could demand.

But when you put in a performance as bad as we did in Malta, then there's questions to be asked. Two years into this revolution and we can't excuse a performance that limp. And it's not in isolation (Luxembourg, Lithuania, Azerbaijan, Armenia twice). And even Greece, in its own way, was a continuation of that. We were beaten all ends up and we were lucky Greece fell down when it came to the final pass or shot.

[EalingGreen]

Southgate got the England job almost by default. Allardyce had been caught in a sting by one of the tabloids posing as potential buyers of a premier league club talking about how he could get transfers pushed through, and had to resign. The FA had to appoint someone fast, nobody was interested, so Southgate got promoted from their U21s.So nobody was interested in a job paying £5m a year?

I'm sure they'd have got someone...


Southgate, who already had experience managing in the Premier League, managed the England U-21s for three years and 37 matches, enjoying a 73% win rate. So, not really comparable with the Kenny situation at all.Not to mention playing over 500 league games in England, almost all in the top tier, plus League Cup winning captain, FA Cup finalist and European games, including UEFA Cup finalist with Boro.

Oh and 57 England caps, including a World Cup finals tournament and two Euro's.

But yeah, pretty much plucked from nowhere in an emergency to take over the Big Job.

[zero]

I have a bit of an issue with the idea this is the 'worst squad of players' we've had. For me, Mick inherited a worse squad... this is the starting 11 for the 0-0 in Denmark:

Randolph
Coleman Long Duffy Keogh Stevens
Christie Hendrick Brady
O'Dowda
Aiden O'Brien

the 11 v greece was at the very least on a par. It wasn't as if the bench was much better either, the likes of Jimmy Dunne, Scott Hogan, Meyler and Arter...

[tetsujin1979]

So nobody was interested in a job paying £5m a year?

I'm sure they'd have got someone...They probably would have, eventually. But had been two months since Allardyce had been appointed, after Hodgson had resigned a month before that. The FA would have struggled to attract anyone in the short term when every candidate for the job knew they were second choice, at best, behind Sam.


Not to mention playing over 500 league games in England, almost all in the top tier, plus League Cup winning captain, FA Cup finalist and European games, including UEFA Cup finalist with Boro.

Oh and 57 England caps, including a World Cup finals tournament and two Euro's.

But yeah, pretty much plucked from nowhere in an emergency to take over the Big Job.
nobody is saying he was plucked from nowhere, he was the England U21 manager. I'm not sure if it qualifies as an "emergency", but Allardyce had resigned on 27th September, the FA had to appoint someone before their two qualifiers in October, so Southgate was given the job on a caretaker basis until the end of the year. It was the best solution at the time, and barely relevant to this discussion

[Razors left peg]

I have a bit of an issue with the idea this is the 'worst squad of players' we've had. For me, Mick inherited a worse squad... this is the starting 11 for the 0-0 in Denmark:

Randolph
Coleman Long Duffy Keogh Stevens
Christie Hendrick Brady
O'Dowda
Aiden O'Brien

the 11 v greece was at the very least on a par. It wasn't as if the bench was much better either, the likes of Jimmy Dunne, Scott Hogan, Meyler and Arter...

I agree with you here. Liam Brady said that at weekend too and I was so annoyed about it. If the players in our squad were late 20s to early 30s I'd be worried. I fully believe a lot of our players will become very good, but they were pushed in collectively too young together because we had to replace the like of the team you listed

[EalingGreen]

Idah was awful in Greece, I seen people say since that he is just crap and should never play for us again (not here, the cretins on social media), but he's only 22. Harry Kane was still going on loan and being average at that age.
Er, Kane was born in July 1993. His last loan at Leicester ended when he was 20. The following season, 2013/14, he couldn't get into the Spurs team due to their having just signed Roberto Soldado, a Spanish international who had cost a club record £26m. Kane eventually got to play the last 10 PL games, scoring 3 goals.
The following season, when he was 22, Kane scored 21 goals in 31 PL games, plus another 10 in 17 Cup and European games.

I know nothing about Idah, and have nothing against him, but he's a long way short of Kane at a comparable age, a helluva long way.

[pineapple stu]

I think the back six there were almost all better than what we had on Friday. Not by much, sure, but slightly better. I'd take that prime Coleman over current Doherty, prime Duffy over current Collins, Randolph then over Bazunu now, Stevens over O'Dowda (if nothing else I think it's far closer Stevens' natural position), etc. Our current crop may end up being better players, but that's not the point being made.

But certainly the difference in performances is more than the difference in the playing squad.