Stephen Kenny

[osarusan]

Just on criticism/demonisation of managers, although there is of course variation within any community, the Foot.ie community tends to show a lot more loyalty to, or faith in managers, or, at least, takes a lot longer to criticise/demonise, than other online communities.

It's something I very clearly noticed with Trap and then MON. By and large, foot.ie posters were among the last to say that enough was enough.

[Fixer82]

Just on criticism/demonisation of managers, although there is of course variation within any community, the Foot.ie community tends to show a lot more loyalty to, or faith in managers, or, at least, takes a lot longer to criticise/demonise, than other online communities.

It's something I very clearly noticed with Trap and then MON. By and large, foot.ie posters were among the last to say that enough was enough.

That's cos we're sound and realistic

[NeverFeltBetter]

Just on criticism/demonisation of managers, although there is of course variation within any community, the Foot.ie community tends to show a lot more loyalty to, or faith in managers, or, at least, takes a lot longer to criticise/demonise, than other online communities.

It's something I very clearly noticed with Trap and then MON. By and large, foot.ie posters were among the last to say that enough was enough.

Successful qualifications were a factor there for sure. It bought both men a lot more patience than they arguably deserved.

[osarusan]

Successful qualifications were a factor there for sure. It bought both men a lot more patience than they arguably deserved.

Tbf if a manager gets Ireland to qualify for the WC or Euros, don't they deserve that patience? What more can we really ask for?

Trap and MON's styles of play were always fairly negative and primitive, but it only really became an issue when it completely stopped working. We didn't mind much when we hoofed our way to Euro 2012 or 2016.

[Stuttgart88]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-41024300.html

I see Spain have promoted a successful underage coach to their senior team. That'll be interesting :) Is there a ball.es?

[Demesne Lad]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-41024300.html

I see Spain have promoted a successful underage coach to their senior team. That'll be interesting :) Is there a ball.es?

Yet another international manager sending their CV to the FAI? :)

[joey B]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-41024300.html

I see Spain have promoted a successful underage coach to their senior team. That'll be interesting :) Is there a ball.es?

https://www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/12040/12763236/michael-oneill-northern-ireland-reappoint-former-boss-on-five-and-a-half-year-contract

I see Northern Ireland have reappointed an O’Neill ,I wonder if we shou….never mind…….!!!!!

[Stuttgart88]

Yet another international manager sending their CV to the FAI? :)
Enrique, Martinez...

In 5 years time we'll have 85% possession in every game and be unable to muster a shot on goal.

Still, we're already at Spain's levels of penalty shoot-out incompetence.

[Eirambler]

Spain's World Cup penalty record is so bad that the only team they've beaten on penalties at the World Cup this century is Ireland.

[pineapple stu]

In fairness, they did win on penalties in three of the last four Euros. Their full (senior) record is here (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spanien/elfmeterschiessen/verein/3375) - won 6, lost 6.

[Eirambler]

That's actually even worse than I thought - we're the only team they've ever beaten on penalties at a World Cup!

[weldoninhio]

Just a few general observations. While talking about a change of style and a need to play modern football, I don't think anyone was truly looking for us to be dominating possession in games against top tier sides, it's never likely to happen. The frustration with the style of play had come from successive managers who seemed to have convinced our entire squad that it was impossible for them to complete three consecutive passes, and it wasn't just agains top teams, it was against below averge and poor teams too. That approach was never going to be sustainable or have a future. Other international teams have improved so much technically, that just giving them back the ball was making it more and more difficult to be competitive, just putting them under pressure doens't work anymore, teams won't cough up the ball easily, so then you run your team into the ground chasing shadows and have nothing left by the end of games.

In the early stages, Kenny probably tried to go too far in the other direction, with always playing out from the back and taking risks that were getting punished. There's an argument to be made that it was needed in order to show the players that they could play that way, flaws and all. We then saw a bit more adaptation and some better results as the formation was tweaked and the need to sometimes just get the ball up the field quickly was acknowledged. Unfortunately, for every step forward there seems to be a step back close behind. I highlighted some of Kenny's faults before he got the job, not great on set pieces, teams vulnerable to counter attacks, slow to change things in game and the issues with an experienced Rovers squad not respecting him. Many of those issues have followed him to the senior team and as pressure has come on they've been magnified. Kenny's ace card was always going to be his under 21 side coming up with him and in particularly his forwards. The big tragedy for Kenny and for Ireland is that Idah has been an injury nightmare, Connolly seems to have self destructed and while Parrot and Obafemi have shown flashes, both have been hampered by injury and possibly attitude at time. We've never replaced Robbie Keane, and until one of those lads, or Evan Ferguson or anyone else comes through it looks like we're going to struggle to score goals. The statistics (I know, I know), have generally pointed to Kenny's team creating plenty of chances to be winning more games, but far too often not taking chances has left us drawing or losing.

The pressure on his shoulders has certainly seen the willingness to bring through more young players wane. I think we were all disappointed with how conservative the selection was for Norway and Malta. There's the counter argument that he's already capped so many players, that he needs to have some consistency going into the qualifiers. Is Mark Sykes really the answer to any of the problems in the current squad? Is Evan Ferguson even close to being ready for international football? There's an argument that neither is more than about 6th choice in their position, so barring an injury crisis, they won't be near a start in the qualifiers. Does he learn anything for giving Hendrick more time? No, but he does keep a senior squad player happy and involved. He has to try and keep the senior players on board, if he loses the likes of McClean, Hendrick, Coleman, then he has nowhere to go. Dropping Duffy probably had to happen, but that's probably already upset the apple cart a little bit, going further and he risks losing what support he might have left. Do we really have the luxury of dropping someone playing regularly at the level Hendrick is? Not forgetting that after he initially broke back into the team for Kenny he put in some solid performances.

Overall, there's no doubt Kenny has been a disappointment. I don't think there's any chance he's being sacked before the qualifiers, so I'll continue to cling onto the glimmer of hope that everything clicks, and the results suddenly follow. Unless a new manager unearths a striker or a world class midfielder, I find it hard to see a major change happening in the next two years. We're stuck in this transition phase now, with the older generation hitting retirement and a bunch of players under 23 who are showing some promise but haven't managed to set the world alight at club level yet.

I take issue with the Hans Christian Andersonisation of Kenny’s time in charge of the 21s. “His ace”?? He had them for 12 games. They were no more “his team” than Giles etc were Cloughs team.

We’re told his time there was a big success, even thought he failed to qualify with probably the best underage team since Kerrs.

We were constantly told that he needed time to put his stamp on the senior team, that you can’t judge him over 10-15 games etc, yet the reverse is expected to be believed about his time with the 21s. It’s mind blowing.

[liamoo11]

Yeah I agree with this. The group he got at 21s were excellent all the way up from 16s to 17s and 19s and we'll documented on this forum for a number of years. We had discussed the fact that we had what appeared to be more quality players spread across a few age cycles than we had seen for a long time and that this would feed into the 21s and hopefully seniors. It was the reason that in those very bleak nights of getting hammered by Wales in the nation s league we felt there was a better cycle on the way. Kenny got these players when he took over at 21s so was lucky in that respect but to his credit did well with them as would have been expected given their underage results

[Jd2793]

previous managers never looked at those excelling in younger age groups though. there were people from certain circles in football bemoaning kenny on twitter for calling up the likes of bazunu and parrott etc to 21s instead of letting them play 19s. he needs to get some credit at least for taking the plunge with the younger better ones and not just playing a load of 21 year olds with 6 months of eligibility left.

[mypost]

I also know what else is coming, here's the name for next Ireland manager:

Marcelo Bielsa.

Well at least we have a name. However, as someone who wants a new manager because of the below issue...


He struggles to put a cohesive sentence together.

...the inquisitions after games from Tony should be fun....

"So Marcelo, you useless idiot, we have gone 10 games without a win, conceding 40 goals in that time. How do you explain the downturn in results?".....

"Si, hdgjxghvv gcgjfdgjjfgdddj jgcfjkkdddggg igf gffhjjfddgg fcbklkfssgjjffv gffh khgvvvjjdddrghh kkg khgfvhhffcjjfg vbk hgddff jkgfgbjbvvbkgfhhfh lhjjfdsdpgggffh ffjjgddfjkjj kkgv cvbhfdfggh dfjlllggvvijgff cvbnkkbvcd ujffgh kkfdfgjncddjj hhkoohtdsghj fhjjkbfssghnjnkkj futbol"

Translator: "Yes, well basically I think the team is useless at football"

"Thank you Marcelo"

"Gracias"


I’m tiring of the confrontational nature of the discussion and would be really happy to hold my hands up if I’ve said anything that can be shown to be out of line or just plain wrong.

I was happy for Kenny to be given more time than you’d usually grant a manager because of what he was trying to do and with the personnel he was trying to do it with. After 30 games I’ve probably given up on expecting things to get better rather than worse but I don’t think it was unreasonable to think they might after, say, 20 games. I’ve said I think his broad philosophy is right but I’m indifferent as to who continues the transition so that just doesn’t square with irrationally supporting Kenny to vindicate a view on how we should play the game.

The nature of the discussion is tiring, but if his critics were to give him the time to do the job instead of wanting him out after every single game regardless of the result, the debate would be healthier.

Most of the losses he's had were during the first half of the 30 games, with mitigating circumstances. Yes we've lost games since then, but the results in the second half of those games have generally been par for any Ireland manager in the past 20 years. Whether that's good enough for people depends on what they want from an Ireland team, and whether they were prepared to give Kenny any sort of chance from the beginning in Bulgaria.

The uncomfortable truth for them is, we won in Malta. We won 50% of our home games this year, won 50% of the last 6 games, and we don't fire managers after winning friendlies. If we catch France on a WC hangover and get the same scoreline, it's only those who still want him out at all costs, who will whinge about it.

[Supreme feet]

Yep mypost, it's a futile discussion to a point, because he's in the job for the next year, and if he's dismissed, it'll be a cheap in-house replacement - Keith Andrews or Jim Crawford.

I'm in the camp of 'I like what he's trying to do, and will give him leeway as long as we're bringing through young players and playing constructive, modern football, but I worry about his competence to organise us - especially our attack - and I'm frustrated by the results against weaker teams.'

The worst thing is when a manager is committed to something that obviously doesn't work. Like Kerr picking Kilbane in centre mid, or Trap leaving out ball players and picking cloggers who actually cost us goals, and constantly gave the ball away, because 'defence'. Or lots of managers picking Glenn Whelan. At least Kenny has shown some ability to change the formation and personnel when it's not working, rather than doubling down on mistakes.

The second-worst thing is when a manager goes back on his good principles. Like Kerr abandoning youth and good football in favour of Holland and Kavanagh in midfield and 'lamp it up to Gary Doherty'. I supported Kenny when he was picking Omobamidele, Nathan Collins, Parrott and Idah ahead of Duffy, Clark, Hogan and James Collins. I don't support him when he picks Hendrick and Hourihane ahead of blooding Coventry, Hodge and Smallbone. I supported him when we were beating presses, playing good ball, creating chances with good passes into feet. I don't support him when we're hoofing crosses into 5'10" and 5'7" centre-forwards when they're playing against gigantic Norwegian centre-backs.

[pineapple stu]

The nature of the discussion is tiring, but if his critics were to give him the time to do the job instead of wanting him out after every single game regardless of the result, the debate would be healthier.

Most of the losses he's had were during the first half of the 30 games, with mitigating circumstances. Yes we've lost games since then, but the results in the second half of those games have generally been par for any Ireland manager in the past 20 years. Whether that's good enough for people depends on what they want from an Ireland team, and whether they were prepared to give Kenny any sort of chance from the beginning in Bulgaria.

The uncomfortable truth for them is, we won in Malta. We won 50% of our home games this year, won 50% of the last 6 games, and we don't fire managers after winning friendlies. If we catch France on a WC hangover and get the same scoreline, it's only those who still want him out at all costs, who will whinge about it.
This is typical mypost ******ology.

"Give him time to do the job" - but he's had 30 games. "We won 50% of the last 6 games" - as the saying goes, there's lies, gross lies, and mypost's statistics. Two of those wins were dreadful performances against Malta and Armenia.

Unfortunately, after a decent enough last quarter of 2021, things seem to be going backwards now. "We won in Malta" - because they gifted us a goal we never looked like scoring. We scraped past Lithuania in the 97th minute. Enough of those performances, and one will bite you - stand up, Yerevan. And we got out of jail in the home game too.

One of the main criticisms of Mick was that we were really starting to struggle against the lower seeds - Georgia and Gibraltar in his case. We dropped two points in Tbilisi which was seen as a really bad performance. Now we take these sort of results as de rigeur. But if you aim to play passing, possession football like Kenny does (and that's a good thing) you should start to see an uptick in results against the minnows. They can't just sit and defend long balls; they have to be smarter - and they're not, by definition. So when Malta - whose best player is at Oxford - comfortably match us (worst player - Oxford) for 90 minutes, one howler aside, then there's problems. And when that happens with regularity, it's alarming.

Yes, the squad is the worst it's been in living memory - and it's unbalanced too; lots of defenders and no attackers - so that's a mitigant in his favour. But let's have less of the bull**** stats please.

(I do agree with Supreme Feet about the worry over who the successor would be given no budget and a possible contract pay-off if we sack him tomorrow)

[Stuttgart88]

Or lots of managers picking Glenn WhelanI was wondering recently if the several goals we've conceded from 20 yard shots would have happened with Glenn in the team.

[Fixer82]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We don't know our team. Under McCarty, Trap, O'Neill, Kerr, Charlton...after a couple of years we'd a good idea what the team was. Now nobody knows.

Bazunu in goal for sure...after that...Egan, Doherty and maybe Cullen are the only dead certs to start when fit.

Kenny hasn't built a team. I'm not sure his vision was built around players but rather a system that anyone could be put into.

Even Stan brought in Jonathan Douglas and stuck him in midfield for a campaign to break things up. He wasn't a Premiership player but he was probably the right man at that time for that particular job. That was his job for that campaign.

It seems totally fluid at the moment and after two years, for me, that's not good enough. There's no stability in the squad.

[lofty9]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We don't know our team. Under McCarty, Trap, O'Neill, Kerr, Charlton...after a couple of years we'd a good idea what the team was. Now nobody knows.

Bazunu in goal for sure...after that...Egan, Doherty and maybe Cullen are the only dead certs to start when fit.

Kenny hasn't built a team. I'm not sure his vision was built around players but rather a system that anyone could be put into.

Even Stan brought in Jonathan Douglas and stuck him in midfield for a campaign to break things up. He wasn't a Premiership player but he was probably the right man at that time for that particular job. That was his job for that campaign.

It seems totally fluid at the moment and after two years, for me, that's not good enough. There's no stability in the squad.


We'd all disagree with our own opinions for a starting 11 and formation whereas in golden eras players were nailed on to start. Players should be nailing down their positions ideally with their performances, for example I thought Ogbene and Knight were invaluable going forward after the small upturn a while ago, but both not selected for whatever reason as starters. I genuinely wouldn't have a clue who to select. The manager really should have a nailed down 11 in his head, but he could be a horses for courses type.

[Stuttgart88]

OK, here I go defending Kenny again :) or rather I should ask the question: is it fair to say the following?

Bazunu, Doherty, Egan, Collins, O'Shea, Cullen, Molumby, Knight, Obafemi and Parrott all start if fit / playing regularly / available (like Knight wasn't) now I'd say. McClean probably too.

Coleman is touch and go.

Omobamidele, O'Dowda, Obafemi, Parrott & Brady have all been injured at various times, necessitating changes. Brady and O'Dowda haven't had the opportunity to make a starting spot their own. Ogbene, Robinson, Hendrick, Browne and Hourihane come into the team depending on others' fitness. Brady and O'Dowda being back puts doubt on McClean's position.

Duffy hasn't been playing. Idah, Connolly came and went in different circumstances. Horgan was tried and ultimately seen not good enough. Obafemi and Parrott's emergence has phased out Collins...

Bazunu's regular club football keeps him ahead of Kelleher.

[Jd2793]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We don't know our team. Under McCarty, Trap, O'Neill, Kerr, Charlton...after a couple of years we'd a good idea what the team was. Now nobody knows.

Bazunu in goal for sure...after that...Egan, Doherty and maybe Cullen are the only dead certs to start when fit.

Kenny hasn't built a team. I'm not sure his vision was built around players but rather a system that anyone could be put into.

Even Stan brought in Jonathan Douglas and stuck him in midfield for a campaign to break things up. He wasn't a Premiership player but he was probably the right man at that time for that particular job. That was his job for that campaign.

It seems totally fluid at the moment and after two years, for me, that's not good enough. There's no stability in the squad.


if anything theres too much stability, hes still calling up hourihane and having to use hendrick.... nearly everyone could belt out 8/9 starters. we've had issues with forwards mostly down to injury/club form. seems a bizarre angle to come at SK.

[elatedscum]

Gareth Southgate and Didier Deschamp have been in the job for forever and don’t know their best teams

[tetsujin1979]

To be fair, they both have far, far bigger player pools to choose from

[Eirambler]

Yep mypost, it's a futile discussion to a point, because he's in the job for the next year, and if he's dismissed, it'll be a cheap in-house replacement - Keith Andrews or Jim Crawford.

I'm in the camp of 'I like what he's trying to do, and will give him leeway as long as we're bringing through young players and playing constructive, modern football, but I worry about his competence to organise us - especially our attack - and I'm frustrated by the results against weaker teams.'

The worst thing is when a manager is committed to something that obviously doesn't work. Like Kerr picking Kilbane in centre mid, or Trap leaving out ball players and picking cloggers who actually cost us goals, and constantly gave the ball away, because 'defence'. Or lots of managers picking Glenn Whelan. At least Kenny has shown some ability to change the formation and personnel when it's not working, rather than doubling down on mistakes.

The second-worst thing is when a manager goes back on his good principles. Like Kerr abandoning youth and good football in favour of Holland and Kavanagh in midfield and 'lamp it up to Gary Doherty'. I supported Kenny when he was picking Omobamidele, Nathan Collins, Parrott and Idah ahead of Duffy, Clark, Hogan and James Collins. I don't support him when he picks Hendrick and Hourihane ahead of blooding Coventry, Hodge and Smallbone. I supported him when we were beating presses, playing good ball, creating chances with good passes into feet. I don't support him when we're hoofing crosses into 5'10" and 5'7" centre-forwards when they're playing against gigantic Norwegian centre-backs.

The funny thing is that I would contend that Kenny has already done both of those "worst things" you have listed. He continues to try to implement a system that we don't have the players to successfully play despite two years of evidence right in front of his face that it won't work in its current form. And his overall selections and substitutions in the recent friendlies confirm that the youth development angle seems to have been well and truly discarded in favour of conservative selections that seek only to try to save his own position as manager.

[mark12345]

The funny thing is that I would contend that Kenny has already done both of those "worst things" you have listed. He continues to try to implement a system that we don't have the players to successfully play despite two years of evidence right in front of his face that it won't work in its current form. And his overall selections and substitutions in the recent friendlies confirm that the youth development angle seems to have been well and truly discarded in favour of conservative selections that seek only to try to save his own position as manager.

Speaking about Kenny and his system which he can't implement, how about that nation the same size as us which just knocked Brazil out of the World Cup? Looks like we're on the road to nowhere

[osarusan]

Speaking about Kenny and his system which he can't implement, how about that nation the same size as us which just knocked Brazil out of the World Cup? Looks like we're on the road to nowhere
Fairly pointless comparison. To just compare populations means little, just as it would if we beat China with their billion plus population.

Every Irish manager, Kenny included, is hamstrung by the abject state of our domestic structures, facilities, and training programmes, or lack thereof.

The real question is whether he is doing an acceptable job with the resouces at his disposal - is he achieving what he can realistically be expected to achieve with the players available to him. For me the answer is still a No.

Does he look like he's getting closer to achieving that? For me, it's another No.

And after the time and games he's had, that's unacceptable.

[SkStu]

Possession definitely isn't everything but by its very nature it does help, it improves odds. It shouldnt be possession for possessions sake though - there has to be some cut, some bite and we aren't seeing that consistently enough at this stage or at all. Not sure if it is down to personnel or coaching but my guess is it is mostly the former. Not trying to shift the goalposts in this next comment but some of the teams you mention - even if they are not all household names - have a dash of quality that we are sorely missing.

read this article today and thought of my post above. While i wont say "i'm right" as it is clearly a very nuanced topic, the article does support that possession without intent is meaningless in terms of team effectiveness and that good players make a big difference. Anyway, more so thought it might be a good read for those interested...

https://theathletic.com/2352067/2021/01/29/possession-the-most-dangerous-statistic-in-football/

[mark12345]

Fairly pointless comparison. To just compare populations means little, just as it would if we beat China with their billion plus population.

Every Irish manager, Kenny included, is hamstrung by the abject state of our domestic structures, facilities, and training programmes, or lack thereof.

The real question is whether he is doing an acceptable job with the resouces at his disposal - is he achieving what he can realistically be expected to achieve with the players available to him. For me the answer is still a No.

Does he look like he's getting closer to achieving that? For me, it's another No.

And after the time and games he's had, that's unacceptable.

I would say the population comparison is significant. How can Croatia (and indeed Uruguay) with similar population do infinitely better than us. It's all down to coaching. And while ours may have improved a bit, we're still not remotely close to these standards

[Eirambler]

I think people are overestimating the standard of Croatia's domestic structures to be honest. Generally what their national team has achieved is done despite their domestic setup, not because of it.

[ontheotherhand]

I would say the population comparison is significant. How can Croatia (and indeed Uruguay) with similar population do infinitely better than us. It's all down to coaching. And while ours may have improved a bit, we're still not remotely close to these standards

https://keepitonthedeck.com/blog/2018/7/2/technical-football-produces-footballers

By coaching you mean developmental coaching through the age groups? Not coaching at the senior level right? I'd agree that we don't get the most out of our supply chain. Too many broken systems and competing parties unwilling to put players first to get the most out of a relatively small pool to begin with. There doesn't seem to be an easy fix there.

Even Kenny might get to a WC with Luka Modric in midfield. Barry would probably win it.

[Jd2793]

I think people are overestimating the standard of Croatia's domestic structures to be honest. Generally what their national team has achieved is done despite their domestic setup, not because of it.

really? croatian clubs have produced good players for years tbh. lots of exposure in uefa youth leagues over the years aswell. vast majority of the current senior squad all had at least one full season of croatian football under their belts before going to other euro clubs.

[Snapshot]

read this article today and thought of my post above. While i wont say "i'm right" as it is clearly a very nuanced topic, the article does support that possession without intent is meaningless in terms of team effectiveness and that good players make a big difference. Anyway, more so thought it might be a good read for those interested...

https://theathletic.com/2352067/2021/01/29/possession-the-most-dangerous-statistic-in-football/

Why pay? Just stating the bleedin' obvious.

[SkStu]

Pay?? That’s weird. I didn’t have to pay on desktop but just clicked thru on mobile and see it does require payment. Sorry about that.

It was a good read, it said a good bit more than that, like.

[paul_oshea]

I think people are overestimating the standard of Croatia's domestic structures to be honest. Generally what their national team has achieved is done despite their domestic setup, not because of it.

Ya this one's been pulled out a few times and then referenced about new Zealand in rugby. I mentioned a few years back when I was in Croatia a friend brought me a long to sibenik and a local youth team in makarska training. I'm no expert but the facilities didn't look much better than my local football club at home for the second team mentioned. And I was in split and saw another team training as we were driving around and again facilities and stuff like that were similar to what I'd have seen around LOI clubs.
The other argument thrown out was oh but they don't have Gaelic sports : rolleyes: they've got waterpolo, handball and basketball to compete with similar numbers of countries playing that at a high level in the world to rugby. Oh and they got more medals than us I'm pretty sure at the last Olympics. The only thing they don't produce is golfers and you can probably guess why that is.

[paul_oshea]

read this article today and thought of my post above. While i wont say "i'm right" as it is clearly a very nuanced topic, the article does support that possession without intent is meaningless in terms of team effectiveness and that good players make a big difference. Anyway, more so thought it might be a good read for those interested...

https://theathletic.com/2352067/2021/01/29/possession-the-most-dangerous-statistic-in-football/

The possession without intent bit was that not what the other side in this discussion was saying?! I don't remember you saying that but I do remember me saying it :P

[Jd2793]

facilities are one thing but the structures are clearly in place domestically in croatia for them to be churning out players like this. i dont think its even up for debate. whatever they are doing they are doing it exceptionally well considering they also compete with a massive sport like basketball

[pineapple stu]

One huge benefit they have of course is that they get huge transfer fees to reinvest into the clubs (and maybe siphon off a couple of mill illegally of course). Dinamo got €11m this season, €24m last season (per wiki). That's huge money.

But yeah, there's something in the water there alright

[Jd2793]

youd have to assume they dont have their own versions of ddsl csl etc interfering with the schoolboys game aswell. but look maybe those involved in schoolboy football in ireland will wake up eventually. our population is growing , theirs is declining. the only way should be up for ireland but god knows it wont happen.

[pineapple stu]

our population is growing , theirs is declining. the only way should be up for ireland but god knows it wont happen.
I'd be a little bit careful about simplifying like this. Croatia's expat population is growing (Lovren, Rakitic, Corluka, Kovacic, etc) and our population is growing because of people who don't necessarily consider themselves Irish (although I think the GAA will be the bigger loser there).

I think as the century goes on, and the population of Croatia and other Eastern European countries tends towards nil while the population of Ireland and other Western countries pushes below 50% original native (for want of a better term), you're likely to see increased kickback against that. May you live in interesting times, as they say...

[John83]

I would say the population comparison is significant. How can Croatia (and indeed Uruguay) with similar population do infinitely better than us. It's all down to coaching. And while ours may have improved a bit, we're still not remotely close to these standards
"All" is too strong. Coaching and youth structures are the biggest part, but there are others: e.g. as Ireland grew more affluent, the attraction of a risky sporting career may have diminished; rugby has become the flagship successful international team sport, siphoning off atheletic talent; the GAA also competes for talent; both GAA and rugby compete for state sports funding (as do horse and greyhound racing with a disgraceful amount of success); "home-grown" quotas in UK squads and the rise of UK football as a fashionably place for a billionaire to own a club means our players are competing with global talent far more than a generation ago.

The way you fight all of this is to improve domestic youth structures and coaching, and to invest in the domestic league as a development league for young talent. That requires competent investment, and we have the FAI: a laughing stock among sporting organisations even domestically.

[paul_oshea]

I'm not so sure. Look at Switzerland , conflict is dying out in these countries , and with that the sense of national identity is diluting. Mad to think ireland has 20% non-native population already. It's great if it wasn't so regionalised. But at the same time I don't want that sense of " irishness " lost.

Oh and the money thing in Croatia. No I'm not buying that either that's why hajduk fans were protesting in the stands at those euros way back. Dinamo are still corrupt sure the president had to go live in bih for a while due to all the swindling. That money is all soaked up in one club. It does very little for Croatian football. Have you been to hajduk stadium? Their trophy cabinet is the most impressive thing about it....

[tetsujin1979]

Just you bring it back to Croatia, teams like Zagreb have been exporting players successfully for decades, and ploughing that money back into their facilities. As well as that they've had success domestically and played regularly in European competition, all of which raised their profile and have playing for them an attractive proposition.
If you asked a Croatian football fan to name a League of Ireland team, how many do you think they'd manage?

[seanfhear]

Croatia produces fine athletic specimens as well ( that are also brilliant footballers which helps ) and when the exception turns out to be Luka Modric then you have some sort of DNA advantage.

I would say Croatians are very patriotic and probably don’t pay much attention when their club managers tell them Not to come back with injuries / hamstring strains / etc.

Football wise they are on a different planet to the Republic of Ireland.

[Stuttgart88]

read this article today and thought of my post above. While i wont say "i'm right" as it is clearly a very nuanced topic, the article does support that possession without intent is meaningless in terms of team effectiveness and that good players make a big difference. Anyway, more so thought it might be a good read for those interested...

https://theathletic.com/2352067/2021/01/29/possession-the-most-dangerous-statistic-in-football/fair enough, but the observation that possession for possession’s sake is hardly revelatory.

[SkStu]

No, not at all!! But as I said, it does go a bit deeper into the whole topic of possession and other statistical indicators around effectiveness.

[tetsujin1979]

It's a bit like using BMI for health. At best, it's an indicator of how well you're doing, but you can still get a good result despite having a bad value in either.

[paul_oshea]

Ya you told youre a healthy weight only to have chronic heart disease

[Stuttgart88]

I've always been a bit sceptical of this "competing sports" argument. I've heard it said you need x hours a week of contact with a ball etc to develop to the standard required and our players aren't getting that. I've heard that early specialisation is key but equally I've heard that playing other sports is key. Which is it? My guess (and that's all it is) is that if you have the talent to be a top footballer you'll get there despite the competition from other codes - notwithstanding luck, having a pathway etc.

I've heard anecdotally that John Egan was a brilliant GAA footballer, Shane Long a great hurler, Tony Grealish a very good GAA footballer, Niall Quinn a real talent at hurling. Several rugby players like Rob Kearney had very good GAA backgrounds. But they all ended up doing what they were comparatively better at and at a very high level. I read at the time of his death that Grealish was immersed in GAA culture but what really stood out was his gift for footy. Does football really lose top class talent to GAA and rugby? Maybe we actually benefit from it?

I'd place more value on an argument that Croatia and Denmark benefit from having exposure to other sports like handball, or hockey in the Netherlands, sports that give you not just the diversified exposure you need to develop certain motor skills but also spatial awareness that is closer to the needs of football.

I'm not sure rugby draws its talent pool from potential top class footballers. I'm not making a socio economic cliche here but a disproportionate number of rugby players come from a small number of schools. And the type of athlete needed to excel at rugby isn't necessarily the same as that required by football. GAA football is probably closer but I remember hearing stories like Graham Geraty trialling at football and not being good enough.

I think the GAA's economic and political might crowds out investment in football though, and that is a big factor. I don't think the IRFU crowds out potential investment in football though.

[seanfhear]

I've always been a bit sceptical of this "competing sports" argument. I've heard it said you need x hours a week of contact with a ball etc to develop to the standard required and our players aren't getting that. I've heard that early specialisation is key but equally I've heard that playing other sports is key. Which is it? My guess (and that's all it is) is that if you have the talent to be a top footballer you'll get there despite the competition from other codes - notwithstanding luck, having a pathway etc.

I've heard anecdotally that John Egan was a brilliant GAA footballer, Shane Long a great hurler, Tony Grealish a very good GAA footballer, Niall Quinn a real talent at hurling. Several rugby players like Rob Kearney had very good GAA backgrounds. But they all ended up doing what they were comparatively better at and at a very high level. I read at the time of his death that Grealish was immersed in GAA culture but what really stood out was his gift for footy. Does football really lose top class talent to GAA and rugby? Maybe we actually benefit from it?

I'd place more value on an argument that Croatia and Denmark benefit from having exposure to other sports like handball, or hockey in the Netherlands, sports that give you not just the diversified exposure you need to develop certain motor skills but also spatial awareness that is closer to the needs of football.

I'm not sure rugby draws its talent pool from potential top class footballers. I'm not making a socio economic cliche here but a disproportionate number of rugby players come from a small number of schools. And the type of athlete needed to excel at rugby isn't necessarily the same as that required by football. GAA football is probably closer but I remember hearing stories like Graham Geraty trialling at football and not being good enough.

I think the GAA's economic and political might crowds out investment in football though, and that is a big factor. I don't think the IRFU crowds out potential investment in football though.
I was a much better soccer player than a GAA player but I could do a certain job on a GAA pitch if you needed a player to give the full-back / centre half-back a physical battle ~ I will be honest if you had a good attacking player then I would not be playing but sometime needs must, and in these positions a physical battle can have an impact on a GAA pitch.

John Egans father was a brilliant Kerry footballer who won multiple All-Ireland in one of the best GAA teams of all time ~ ~ He was a very fast forward and I mean very fast.