Stephen Kenny

[ontheotherhand]

Not sure where to put this topic but I suppose it's a big concern for Kenny looking ahead.

It seems like a lot of our players have been benched of late, especially in the English premier league. There are a few injuries but just going on players that would be seen as starters. Randolph remains on the bench. Doherty seems to be swapping with Aurier in and out, Coleman injured. Duffy starting but struggling for Celtic, Egan and Stevens regulars. McCarthy still injured. Molumby not even making the bench. Hendrick dropped today, Hourihane benched for the last few games. Arter out, is he injured? Is Connolly injured? I don't see him in the Brighton squad today. McGoldrick is coming on from the bench. I think Robinson is on the bench too. Long bench, Brady bench.

Then there are other players like O'Shea dropped, Obafemi dropped from squad, McGuire dropped, Smallbone not making the squad. I might be missing that some are injured but things haven't been going well of late. We need some of these players getting back into their teams or making a breakthrough. It just seems like a really bad run of players getting dropped recently.

You saw the decline yourself at one stage B.

[ontheotherhand]

Nope, I?m arguing that young players good enough for the Championship or L1 are at a much higher standard than the vast majority of players on the teams we?ve played against.

Yeah that's grand and we completely agree. I'm only comparing Mick's player pool with Kenny's. I'm not saying we shouldn't still beat Armenia more comfortably or even advocating for Kenny to stay.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

You saw the decline yourself at one stage B.

I'm sure while having a look through my posts you also found this one:


Some players got older and dropped to the bench, some players improved and got into starting positions, some players remained at the same level. When you weigh all of that up, Kenny has a slightly stronger squad than McCarthy. A big example of that is McCarthy had an over the hill Whelan while Kenny has a youthful Cullen who stepped up the levels.


Let us look closer at some of the key developments that have assisted Kenny.

Bazunu: Moved to Rochdale and Portsmouth on loan and gained a premier league move to Southampton.
Kelleher: Started to get some game time with Liverpool although very limited.
Travers: Made a breakthrough at Bournemouth to become a regular.
Dara O'Shea: Became a premier league regular with West Brom and still a regular in the championship despite major injury.
Omobamidele: Made the breakthrough at Norwich in the premier league and now a championship regular despite injury.
Collins: Became a regular with Stoke which got him a premier league move with Burnley and then Wolves.
Cullen: Got a move to Anderlecht which helped his development hugely.
Knight: Became captain and championship regular with Derby.
Molumby: Got loan moves to become a regular at championship level and now signed by West Brom.
Idah: Made a breakthrough at Norwich to play a number of premier league games.
Obefami: Became a championship regular and started banging in the goals.
Parrott: Got loan moves to championship and league 1 to get regular games.

That's almost a full team of breakthroughs! My earlier post was from 2021, Kenny had a slightly better squad at that stage but looking at what he's had to pick from, the players already there and the breakthroughs, Kenny has had a far superior squad.

[ontheotherhand]

I'm sure while having a look through my posts you also found this one:



Let us look closer at some of the key developments that have assisted Kenny.

Bazunu: Moved to Rochdale and Portsmouth on loan and gained a premier league move to Southampton.
Kelleher: Started to get some game time with Liverpool although very limited.
Travers: Made a breakthrough at Bournemouth to become a regular.
Dara O'Shea: Became a premier league regular with West Brom and still a regular in the championship despite major injury.
Omobamidele: Made the breakthrough at Norwich in the premier league and now a championship regular despite injury.
Collins: Became a regular with Stoke which got him a premier league move with Burnley and then Wolves.
Cullen: Got a move to Anderlecht which helped his development hugely.
Knight: Became captain and championship regular with Derby.
Molumby: Got loan moves to become a regular at championship level and now signed by West Brom.
Idah: Made a breakthrough at Norwich to play a number of premier league games.
Obefami: Became a championship regular and started banging in the goals.
Parrott: Got loan moves to championship and league 1 to get regular games.

That's almost a full team of breakthroughs! My earlier post was from 2021, Kenny had a slightly better squad at that stage but looking at what he's had to pick from, the players already there and the breakthroughs, Kenny has had a far superior squad.

Are you saying that you disagree with your own posts? You also said slightly stronger there whereas now you are saying far superior. What is it? Lots of issues, slightly stronger or far superior?

That's a list of completely inexperienced lads who had both breakthroughs and setbacks. Taking just the strikers the reality is utterly at odds with your take.


Idah - yeah he made a breakthrough of sorts. What happened then?
Parrot had to go down multiple levels only found any sort of form at L1 level. That's not a breakthrough.
Obafemi - starting to make a breakthrough now....we hope!

Keepers I'd agree with to an extent. Any of those three could be better than Randolph. But they are still very raw and we've seen the inexperience show with all 3.

But look the thread knows we disagree by now and I don't think we will be finding common ground here so we can probably leave it alone. I've more pressing things to worry about today in the league!

And at least we can agree that things need to get better. Just maybe not on how much better they are likely to get.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Are you saying that you disagree with your own posts? You also said slightly stronger there whereas now you are saying far superior. What is it? Lots of issues, slightly stronger or far superior?

That's a list of completely inexperienced lads who had both breakthroughs and setbacks. Taking just the strikers the reality is utterly at odds with your take.


Idah - yeah he made a breakthrough of sorts. What happened then?
Parrot had to go down multiple levels only found any sort of form at L1 level. That's not a breakthrough.
Obafemi - starting to make a breakthrough now....we hope!

Keepers I'd agree with to an extent. Any of those three could be better than Randolph. But they are still very raw and we've seen the inexperience show with all 3.

But look the thread knows we disagree by now and I don't think we will be finding common ground here so we can probably leave it alone. I've more pressing things to worry about today in the league!

And at least we can agree that things need to get better. Just maybe not on how much better they are likely to get.

I said it in the post you just quoted:

"My earlier post was from 2021, Kenny had a slightly better squad at that stage but looking at what he's had to pick from, the players already there and the breakthroughs, Kenny has had a far superior squad."

It's a list of almost a team full of breakthroughs which Kenny could add to the squad that was already there. It's an incredible list, look at the team that list alone could make:

Bazunu
Omobamidele Collins O'Shea
Cullen
Knight Molumby
Obafemi Idah Parrott

Add that lot to the squad who came just behind Denmark and Switzerland and you really have to look critically on Kenny's performance.

Idah got injured, Parrott actually got games instead of sitting on the Spurs bench and Obafemi banged in 12 goals in 32 games last season. Interesting that you could only pick those 3 though. Your opinion is that McCarthy had a stronger squad but you based that on nothing. I've provided loads of data to show that firstly, Kenny had access to and used the same squad as McCarthy bar Glenn Whelan. These players were mostly aged between 27 and 29. He also had the benefit of a large number of breakthroughs illustrated above.

But yeah, obviously there won't be any agreement on this, you've made your mind up based on very little but we're all agreed that Kenny should have done better, that's for sure.

[Jd2793]

manning with another good performance for swansea today if fan comments are anything to go off. id love to know how hes not even part of our set up, when he should realistically be challenging to start. its one of SKs strangest decisions.

[Jd2793]

I said it in the post you just quoted:

"My earlier post was from 2021, Kenny had a slightly better squad at that stage but looking at what he's had to pick from, the players already there and the breakthroughs, Kenny has had a far superior squad."

It's a list of almost a team full of breakthroughs which Kenny could add to the squad that was already there. It's an incredible list, look at the team that list alone could make:

Bazunu
Omobamidele Collins O'Shea
Cullen
Knight Molumby
Obafemi Idah Parrott

Add that lot to the squad who came just behind Denmark and Switzerland and you really have to look critically on Kenny's performance.

Idah got injured, Parrott actually got games instead of sitting on the Spurs bench and Obafemi banged in 12 goals in 32 games last season. Interesting that you could only pick those 3 though. Your opinion is that McCarthy had a stronger squad but you based that on nothing. I've provided loads of data to show that firstly, Kenny had access to and used the same squad as McCarthy bar Glenn Whelan. These players were mostly aged between 27 and 29. He also had the benefit of a large number of breakthroughs illustrated above.

But yeah, obviously there won't be any agreement on this, you've made your mind up based on very little but we're all agreed that Kenny should have done better, that's for sure.


three of those players had long term injuries. idah barely played at PL level last year (617 mins) . knight and parrott were playing l1 last year. its a mis table championship level team once you get past the backline and thats being generous to knight

[SkStu]

manning with another good performance for swansea today if fan comments are anything to go off. id love to know how hes not even part of our set up, when he should realistically be challenging to start. its one of SKs strangest decisions.

Is he playing CB or LWB for them Jd? I recall he got moved to CB recently enough for Swansea and has been doing well but I saw him score a lovely goal there last round from what looked like a LWB position. It?d be tough for him to get a look in at CB to be fair.

[Jd2793]

Is he playing CB or LWB for them Jd? I recall he got moved to CB recently enough for Swansea and has been doing well but I saw him score a lovely goal there last round from what looked like a LWB position. It?d be tough for him to get a look in at CB to be fair.

he was lwb today, hes been there most of the season Swans have used a 4 at the back too and hes started as lb . he had a spell lcb last season alright. find it strange kenny has 0 time for him, a token appearance vs lithuania says a lot imo. very confused by it as he is a guy whos entering "peak" years who is playing at a similar level to others regularly.

[tetsujin1979]

Goals scored and conceded by Stephen Kenny's team in competitive games
1576908844122324992

[Trequartista20]

Seven goals conceded from distance tells its own story - we've got a soft centre and we're far too easy to get at now. It's not just 'bad luck'.

In terms of goals scored, for all of the talk of our improved playing style, we're still as reliant on set-pieces as our likeliest source of goals as ever. That and individual efforts, as with Obafemi against Scotland and Armenia, Collins against Ukraine, Parrott against Lithuania and Andorra, etc.

I can't remember our scoring many goals from good passages of play or obvious training ground moves.

I've asked this question since early in the Kenny reign, but for all of the insistence on playing out from the back, and often putting the ball at risk and gifting opponents goalscoring opportunities in the process, I'm still not quite sure what we're attempting to do in an attacking sense once the ball is played into midfield.

There's no real emphasis on getting the ball wide, getting bodies in the box and getting crosses in, nor do we have the guile and creativity in midfield to really cut teams open by playing through them. We often look at our most dangerous playing on the break away from home, where we can use the pace of Obafemi and Ogbene to effect. Against teams that defend deep, as we've seen over and again against teams as limited as Armenia, Azerbaijan, Lithuania and Andorra, we're often toothless and completely lacking in ideas.

Last Tuesday summed these problems up perfectly. We were woeful against a God-awful Armenia side who'd just been hammered at home 0-5 by Ukraine's second string and looked totally bereft of confidence and like they just didn't want to be there. They were completely there for the taking, and yet we almost contrived to lose to them.

[Charlie Darwin]

People won't admit it but Kenny's reign has painted McCarthy's second term in a new light. Played 10, won 5, drew 4 and lost 1 in a difficult group is not bad at all.
Of all the bizarre posts I've seen on this forum, adding a fictional sixth team to a five-team group and awarding us back-to-back wins over them is right up there.

[ontheotherhand]

"Doing some research for the weekend, and look at the average age of Ireland's XI in recent years:

Euro 2020 Q under McCarthy: 31.8, third-oldest in Europe

2022 WC Q under Kenny: 27.2, 10th-youngest in Europe

2022 Nations League under Kenny: 25.7, seventh-youngest in Europe"

Gavin Cooney, Minister for Propaganda

[tetsujin1979]

Cooney's one of the better journalists out there. Don't see anything wrong with what he posted

[ontheotherhand]

Cooney's one of the better journalists out there. Don't see anything wrong with what he posted

Sorry tets, that was a joke. Kenny and his shadowy media cabal etc.

[Jd2793]

Seven goals conceded from distance tells its own story - we've got a soft centre and we're far too easy to get at now. It's not just 'bad luck'.

In terms of goals scored, for all of the talk of our improved playing style, we're still as reliant on set-pieces as our likeliest source of goals as ever. That and individual efforts, as with Obafemi against Scotland and Armenia, Collins against Ukraine, Parrott against Lithuania and Andorra, etc.

I can't remember our scoring many goals from good passages of play or obvious training ground moves.

I've asked this question since early in the Kenny reign, but for all of the insistence on playing out from the back, and often putting the ball at risk and gifting opponents goalscoring opportunities in the process, I'm still not quite sure what we're attempting to do in an attacking sense once the ball is played into midfield.

There's no real emphasis on getting the ball wide, getting bodies in the box and getting crosses in, nor do we have the guile and creativity in midfield to really cut teams open by playing through them. We often look at our most dangerous playing on the break away from home, where we can use the pace of Obafemi and Ogbene to effect. Against teams that defend deep, as we've seen over and again against teams as limited as Armenia, Azerbaijan, Lithuania and Andorra, we're often toothless and completely lacking in ideas.

Last Tuesday summed these problems up perfectly. We were woeful against a God-awful Armenia side who'd just been hammered at home 0-5 by Ukraine's second string and looked totally bereft of confidence and like they just didn't want to be there. They were completely there for the taking, and yet we almost contrived to lose to them.


Our midfield seems to be the issue for these long rangers , the armenia game the prime example. far too much space in front of the defence. for one reason or another we are passive at blocking these shots down too see coleman vs azer at home

How many goals have we gifted teams from playing out from the back? McGinns chance is the only real one i remember in the june window? open to correction

No emphasis on getting the ball wide? but we are averaging 19.6 crosses per game. it was 16 in 2020, there is cleary evidence of us using our wing backs more as our main creators.

your points stand up on attacking patterns, we look hopeless against most deep lying teams and set pieces seem our best way to goal. First half away in armenia was probably the best/most dangerous we've been v deep lying teams but our final ball killed us. less said about that 2nd half the better.

ryan manning motm again last night. his cross from a fk for swanseas winner was perfect. still cant really understand why kenny hasnt used him more even in friendly games. 10 mins against qatar etc madness.

[Fixer82]

Our midfield seems to be the issue for these long rangers , the armenia game the prime example. far too much space in front of the defence. for one reason or another we are passive at blocking these shots down too see coleman vs azer at home

How many goals have we gifted teams from playing out from the back? McGinns chance is the only real one i remember in the june window? open to correction

No emphasis on getting the ball wide? but we are averaging 19.6 crosses per game. it was 16 in 2020, there is cleary evidence of us using our wing backs more as our main creators.

your points stand up on attacking patterns, we look hopeless against most deep lying teams and set pieces seem our best way to goal. First half away in armenia was probably the best/most dangerous we've been v deep lying teams but our final ball killed us. less said about that 2nd half the better.

ryan manning motm again last night. his cross from a fk for swanseas winner was perfect. still cant really understand why kenny hasnt used him more even in friendly games. 10 mins against qatar etc madness.

Agree re Manning, especially when Stevens is unavailable.
We always seem prone to conceding long rangers against 'lesser' Eastern European teams.
We did it under McCarthy and O'Neill too (Estonia, Georgia away spring to mind)

[seanfhear]

Agree re Manning, especially when Stevens is unavailable.
We always seem prone to conceding long rangers against 'lesser' Eastern European teams.
We did it under McCarthy and O'Neill too (Estonia, Georgia away spring to mind)
We could do with a good goalkeeper (wink wink)

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Of all the bizarre posts I've seen on this forum, adding a fictional sixth team to a five-team group and awarding us back-to-back wins over them is right up there.

You know what I meant.

Imagine if Kenny had a record any way close to McCarthy's. Statues would already have been erected.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

"Doing some research for the weekend, and look at the average age of Ireland's XI in recent years:

Euro 2020 Q under McCarthy: 31.8, third-oldest in Europe

2022 WC Q under Kenny: 27.2, 10th-youngest in Europe

2022 Nations League under Kenny: 25.7, seventh-youngest in Europe"

Gavin Cooney, Minister for Propaganda

More evidence to show that Kenny had more youngsters to pick from. Our greatest crop of u21 players in a long time.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

More evidence to show that Kenny had more youngsters to pick from. Our greatest crop of u21 players in a long time.

Just on this and I know I'm quoting myself, we obviously had a good crop of underage players during Kerr's time over them but the sheer numbers breaking through now seems unprecedented. Am I mistaken in that?

Knowing that it's harder now to make it at the top clubs, is numerous u21 players getting into starting line ups in lower premier league and championship teams as good as we can hope for and better than what we've had in the past?

[ontheotherhand]

It's evidence we lost experience certainly. Which is what I said to kick off our exchange. Your take is understandable given you think so highly of the talent that has come through.

[tetsujin1979]

there's an edit button right there BS, learn to use it.

[samhaydenjr]

Just on this and I know I'm quoting myself, we obviously had a good crop of underage players during Kerr's time over them but the sheer numbers breaking through now seems unprecedented. Am I mistaken in that?

Knowing that it's harder now to make it at the top clubs, is numerous u21 players getting into starting line ups in lower premier league and championship teams as good as we can hope for and better than what we've had in the past?

I debated that with Pineapple Stu a while back when I think I was the first one to speak of a potential new Golden Generation - I named 70 young players who I felt were close to a breakthrough or had already broken through at League One level or above. As a counterpoint, Stu listed the Kerr squads (about 55 players) and showed that only a handful had become regular internationals, which of course could also happen with this generation, but I went on to name about 25 who I thought would be ready for international competition (ie playing at Championship level or above) by the time the Euro qualifiers rolled around and I don't think that number is going to be too far off. There is cause for optimism for the future when you consider that with Bazunu, Travers and Kelleher, we're sorted for keepers until the mid-to-late 2030s, with Collins, O'Shea, Omobamidele and, to a lesser extent, Jimmy Dunne, we're set for centre-backs until the mid-2030s and between Parrott, Idah, Ogbene, Robinson, Obafemi and even Connlly, I think we've already got enough quality up front to see us through to the mid 2030s, with a number of other forwards also close to a breakthrough. Our midfield is light at the moment but with Smallbone surely close to a senior call-up and Coventry close as well, we'll hopefully have more depth by the end of the season. So that just leaves wingbacks/fullbacks. And there are a lot of youngsters still on the horizon


It's evidence we lost experience certainly. Which is what I said to kick off our exchange. Your take is understandable given you think so highly of the talent that has come through.

I think the major point for Kenny sceptics like Boomshakalaka and myself is that, overall he has more options than Mick 2.0 - Mick had a very limited squad and got us within one goal of a Championship - Kenny has had most of that squad plus most of a squad of young players starting out, with much more preparation time and has had three poor-to-mediocre campaigns, results wise at least. And yes, bringing those youngsters through early has been important, given the lack of players we've produced who were born in the mid-1990s - Kenny has done that, but the Mick was also doing that during his truncated tenure when "Kenny's Kids" were even younger. And, certainly, he deserved some leeway, particularly as he was trying to make us play different. And it seemed that things were turning around at the end of the World Cup qualifiers.

But the Nations League campaign has just brought up more concerns, particularly our lack of a cutting edge up front, where we now seem reliant on corners and Michael Obafemi's hamstrings holding up. I even accepted that once he had got the contract extension, it should take him right through the Euro 24 qualifiers as I believe a replacement would need a Nations League campaign to prepare properly and bring about an improvement - now I'm not so sure. Now, perhaps things will start to really come together over the next few months and we will do well and I am optimistic about the future overall, but right now I am a little pessimistic about our immediate prospects

[ontheotherhand]

All very reasonable but football is 11 on 11 and a plethora of young emerging talent is rarely better at digging out results than an experienced group with a good spine.

The argument will be that Randolph, Duffy, Whelan and McGoldrick et al were all also available for Kenny and that's fine, they sort of were. But they were all in various states of decline or declining interest. One of my main gripes with Kenny is that he didn't convince McGoldrick to stay on. He'd have really helped. He was out best player and then he was gone. Kenny should have picked him and made him captain or whatever it took to keep a proper striker in the team. The other players McCarthy had that should have been in their prime for Kenny all somewhat regressed as Boom himself pointed out back in 2020.

I do hope you're right on the 25 players making it to Championship level or above. Certainly there's enough talent about... They're just still very raw. I'd hope that 2-3 of them can get to world class levels and that would really make us competitive. Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, Obafemi all have that bit of extra sparkle. Still a long way to go for all of them though and we still need more midfielders and wide defenders.

And you can count most people among the Kenny skeptics I'd say. I don't know anybody who is completely convinced. How could you be at this point?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

It's evidence we lost experience certainly. Which is what I said to kick off our exchange. Your take is understandable given you think so highly of the talent that has come through.

A younger keeper than Randolph, especially a 19 year old and 36 year old Glenn Whelan dropping from the scene goes a long way to lowering the average. But we've been over the experience part. Kenny had McCarthy's squad bar Whelan so your point has already been dismantled.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I debated that with Pineapple Stu a while back when I think I was the first one to speak of a potential new Golden Generation - I named 70 young players who I felt were close to a breakthrough or had already broken through at League One level or above. As a counterpoint, Stu listed the Kerr squads (about 55 players) and showed that only a handful had become regular internationals, which of course could also happen with this generation, but I went on to name about 25 who I thought would be ready for international competition (ie playing at Championship level or above) by the time the Euro qualifiers rolled around and I don't think that number is going to be too far off. There is cause for optimism for the future when you consider that with Bazunu, Travers and Kelleher, we're sorted for keepers until the mid-to-late 2030s, with Collins, O'Shea, Omobamidele and, to a lesser extent, Jimmy Dunne, we're set for centre-backs until the mid-2030s and between Parrott, Idah, Ogbene, Robinson, Obafemi and even Connlly, I think we've already got enough quality up front to see us through to the mid 2030s, with a number of other forwards also close to a breakthrough. Our midfield is light at the moment but with Smallbone surely close to a senior call-up and Coventry close as well, we'll hopefully have more depth by the end of the season. So that just leaves wingbacks/fullbacks. And there are a lot of youngsters still on the horizon



I think the major point for Kenny sceptics like Boomshakalaka and myself is that, overall he has more options than Mick 2.0 - Mick had a very limited squad and got us within one goal of a Championship - Kenny has had most of that squad plus most of a squad of young players starting out, with much more preparation time and has had three poor-to-mediocre campaigns, results wise at least. And yes, bringing those youngsters through early has been important, given the lack of players we've produced who were born in the mid-1990s - Kenny has done that, but the Mick was also doing that during his truncated tenure when "Kenny's Kids" were even younger. And, certainly, he deserved some leeway, particularly as he was trying to make us play different. And it seemed that things were turning around at the end of the World Cup qualifiers.

But the Nations League campaign has just brought up more concerns, particularly our lack of a cutting edge up front, where we now seem reliant on corners and Michael Obafemi's hamstrings holding up. I even accepted that once he had got the contract extension, it should take him right through the Euro 24 qualifiers as I believe a replacement would need a Nations League campaign to prepare properly and bring about an improvement - now I'm not so sure. Now, perhaps things will start to really come together over the next few months and we will do well and I am optimistic about the future overall, but right now I am a little pessimistic about our immediate prospects

Yes, so many players in different positions but midfield is an area we could do with a few more. Kenny has been very lucky to have so many emerge at once though.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

All very reasonable but football is 11 on 11 and a plethora of young emerging talent is rarely better at digging out results than an experienced group with a good spine.

The argument will be that Randolph, Duffy, Whelan and McGoldrick et al were all also available for Kenny and that's fine, they sort of were. But they were all in various states of decline or declining interest. One of my main gripes with Kenny is that he didn't convince McGoldrick to stay on. He'd have really helped. He was out best player and then he was gone. Kenny should have picked him and made him captain or whatever it took to keep a proper striker in the team. The other players McCarthy had that should have been in their prime for Kenny all somewhat regressed as Boom himself pointed out back in 2020.

I do hope you're right on the 25 players making it to Championship level or above. Certainly there's enough talent about... They're just still very raw. I'd hope that 2-3 of them can get to world class levels and that would really make us competitive. Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, Obafemi all have that bit of extra sparkle. Still a long way to go for all of them though and we still need more midfielders and wide defenders.

And you can count most people among the Kenny skeptics I'd say. I don't know anybody who is completely convinced. How could you be at this point?

McCarthy had a midfield of Whelan, Hourihane and Hendrick for the most part, some of the most heavily critisised players of the recent past. You even had a pop at Hendrick the other day, you clearly don't rate him. But McCarthy managed to get a tune out of them. Whelan was 36 at that stage and playing with Hearts. Kenny had to do without him but all the rest were in their prime as I've already pointed out to you. So again, covering your eyes and ears doesn't cut it, Kenny has had a superior squad to McCarthy's when you look at what's become available added to what was there.

Also, Duffy is one of Ireland's highest goalscorers under Kenny and has been a regular fixture. Facts keep getting in the way of your arguments. He has only been dropped because of the number of quality defenders coming through. Another fact that puts your argument to bed.

[ontheotherhand]

A younger keeper than Randolph, especially a 19 year old and 36 year old Glenn Whelan dropping from the scene goes a long way to lowering the average. But we've been over the experience part. Kenny had McCarthy's squad bar Whelan so your point has already been dismantled.

This is probably the worst of your arguments so if you think that it has dismantled anything.....yikes. Do you need to be introduced to the concept of time and how things change as it passes? I've already pointed out that you've contradicted yourself on this very point. Your argument that the players coming through are something McCarthy didn't have that Kenny does is a better one overall if we were arguing pure squad ability levels but it doesn't answer the lack of experience piece so it's not that useful here really.


Let's go back to basics:

My point - Kenny has had less experienced players to select than McCarthy, particularly in key positions. One by choice to be fair (Didzy) and that was a huge mistake for me. McCarthy relied a lot on Randolph, Duffy, Whelan and McGoldrick. Our best performances were those when Randolph kept us in the game, Duffy got a goal, Whelan kept us disciplined and McGoldrick led the line. Those players OVER TIME, disappeared or sadly lost the plot in one case. Ultimately we were in a transition where that spine needed to be replaced in Kenny's first few years or sooner. Surely you can at least agree to that if you don't agree that the replacing has been done well? It was staring us in the face just as the wing back positions are now. We still haven't replaced McGoldrick which is really saying something although Obafemi may give us something completely different and better if he keeps going.

Your answer to this has been two fold I suppose but correct me if I missed a point:

1) "but look at this list of talent with all these breakthroughs!" - There were maybe 3 or 4 real breakthroughs on your list and even if your entire list had positive ones, that doesn't answer a lack of experience. Quite the opposite obviously. Again, we massively disagree on the levels of talent available. I'm as hopeful as samhaydenjr but we are years away from having an experienced side. So, as I said, not a great argument here.

2) "But he had the same players available"
My point - You yourself noted that a lot of those players were struggling badly or on the way out. I quoted you from 2020 saying that it was a "big concern for Kenny looking ahead" You've ignored that you contradict yourself by quoting another post you made, presumably later, which was essentially the opposite i.e. you stated that Kenny had a slightly stronger team.
My response - You thinking that and the reality of the situation are two different things. A bunch of unproven talent and a bunch of expiring talent doesn't answer the deficiencies in experience we had in key areas, notably GK, centre half, centre mid and striker.

I do think Kenny's squad has the potential to be better than Mick's squad, and by quite a margin. Mick's squad was by no means good. There were weak links all over the place and it was the last good effort the better ones had. Mick did a decent job getting the most out of them. It was an experienced unit though, again with our best performers playing in key positions. Until we have a really good option up front and more options in midfield at least, we are going to struggle to break teams down and we are going to cough up stupid goals from nothing. Unless we find a very good manager of course but I wouldn't trust the FAI with that job just yet.

[ontheotherhand]

McCarthy had a midfield of Whelan, Hourihane and Hendrick for the most part, some of the most heavily critisised players of the recent past. You even had a pop at Hendrick the other day, you clearly don't rate him. But McCarthy managed to get a tune out of them. Whelan was 36 at that stage and playing with Hearts. Kenny had to do without him but all the rest were in their prime as I've already pointed out to you. So again, covering your eyes and ears doesn't cut it, Kenny has had a superior squad to McCarthy's when you look at what's become available added to what was there.

Also, Duffy is one of Ireland's highest goalscorers under Kenny and has been a regular fixture. Facts keep getting in the way of your arguments. He has only been dropped because of the number of quality defenders coming through. Another fact that puts your argument to bed.

And how was he doing when Kenny took over?

On Hendrick - yeah McCarthy had some of the same dross Kenny has had to use. I'd argue Kenny has actually gotten more out of him so he's a bit of a weird one but mentioning him doesn't help you particularly as he's gone backwards in his career over time. Having to play him is where we are at due to the lack of real breakthroughs on your previous list. So again it works against you.

Try to answer one point clearly - why did you think Kenny had a huge problem back in 2020 in terms of players available? We had all this talent coming in that you keep referring to. So what was your big concern?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

This is probably the worst of your arguments so if you think that it has dismantled anything.....yikes. Do you need to be introduced to the concept of time and how things change as it passes? I've already pointed out that you've contradicted yourself on this very point. Your argument that the players coming through are something McCarthy didn't have that Kenny does is a better one overall if we were arguing pure squad ability levels but it doesn't answer the lack of experience piece so it's not that useful here really.


Let's go back to basics:

My point - Kenny has had less experienced players to select than McCarthy, particularly in key positions. One by choice to be fair (Didzy) and that was a huge mistake for me. McCarthy relied a lot on Randolph, Duffy, Whelan and McGoldrick. Our best performances were those when Randolph kept us in the game, Duffy got a goal, Whelan kept us disciplined and McGoldrick led the line. Those players OVER TIME, disappeared or sadly lost the plot in one case. Ultimately we were in a transition where that spine needed to be replaced in Kenny's first few years or sooner. Surely you can at least agree to that if you don't agree that the replacing has been done well? It was staring us in the face just as the wing back positions are now. We still haven't replaced McGoldrick which is really saying something although Obafemi may give us something completely different and better if he keeps going.

Your answer to this has been two fold I suppose but correct me if I missed a point:

1) "but look at this list of talent with all these breakthroughs!" - There were maybe 3 or 4 real breakthroughs on your list and even if your entire list had positive ones, that doesn't answer a lack of experience. Quite the opposite obviously. Again, we massively disagree on the levels of talent available. I'm as hopeful as samhaydenjr but we are years away from having an experienced side. So, as I said, not a great argument here.

2) "But he had the same players available"
My point - You yourself noted that a lot of those players were struggling badly or on the way out. I quoted you from 2020 saying that it was a "big concern for Kenny looking ahead" You've ignored that you contradict yourself by quoting another post you made, presumably later, which was essentially the opposite i.e. you stated that Kenny had a slightly stronger team.
My response - You thinking that and the reality of the situation are two different things. A bunch of unproven talent and a bunch of expiring talent doesn't answer the deficiencies in experience we had in key areas, notably GK, centre half, centre mid and striker.

I do think Kenny's squad has the potential to be better than Mick's squad, and by quite a margin. Mick's squad was by no means good. There were weak links all over the place and it was the last good effort the better ones had. Mick did a decent job getting the most out of them. It was an experienced unit though, again with our best performers playing in key positions. Until we have a really good option up front and more options in midfield at least, we are going to struggle to break teams down and we are going to cough up stupid goals from nothing. Unless we find a very good manager of course but I wouldn't trust the FAI with that job just yet.

The only contradiction is the only argument you're attempting to make. Kenny lost experience. The problem is that Kenny had virtually the same squad as McCarthy's. And you know that means the players were a year older and.......had gained.......more................... experience. :D

These players were mostly between 27 and 29 and in their prime. Sam and I have provided you with a long list of names that have broken through to add to these players in their prime. That all means that your argument is in bits.

I noted players got dropped for 1 weekend but as you say, I also noted in 2021 that Kenny had a slight improvement on McCarthy's squad. Since then it's got even better. The proof of this is has already been pointed out to you multiple times.

[ontheotherhand]

The only contradiction is the only argument you're attempting to make. Kenny lost experience. The problem is that Kenny had virtually the same squad as McCarthy's. And you know that means the players were a year older and.......had gained.......more................... experience. :D

These players were mostly between 27 and 29 and in their prime. Sam and I have provided you with a long list of names that have broken through to add to these players in their prime. That all means that your argument is in bits.

I noted players got dropped for 1 weekend but as you say, I also noted in 2021 that Kenny had a slight improvement on McCarthy's squad. Since then it's got even better. The proof of this is has already been pointed out to you multiple times.

In their prime but getting dropped at club level as you said? Right you are so!

Your list is worthless in this discussion until those players are experienced. Please stop missing the point for the love of Gary Twigg.

But look, it's Friday. It's late. I give up. If you want to keep believing your odd version of events I don't think there's much anyone can do to help you.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

And how was he doing when Kenny took over?

On Hendrick - yeah McCarthy had some of the same dross Kenny has had to use. I'd argue Kenny has actually gotten more out of him so he's a bit of a weird one but mentioning him doesn't help you particularly as he's gone backwards in his career over time. Having to play him is where we are at due to the lack of real breakthroughs on your previous list. So again it works against you.

Try to answer one point clearly - why did you think Kenny had a huge problem back in 2020 in terms of players available? We had all this talent coming in that you keep referring to. So what was your big concern?

He scored 3 goals since 2014 before Kenny took over. :D

It's weird that you think Kenny has got more out of anyone looking at the results. Again those pesky facts getting in the way. He had to play Hendrick until.......players broke through at their clubs. This really isn't going well for you.

Kenny's problem in 2020 was that he managed to turn a team competing with Denmark and Switzerland into a team competing with minnows. He had the squad, he didn't have the coaching or management skills however.

[ontheotherhand]

He scored 3 goals since 2014 before Kenny took over. :D

It's weird that you think Kenny has got more out of anyone looking at the results. Again those pesky facts getting in the way. He had to play Hendrick until.......players broke through at their clubs. This really isn't going well for you.

Kenny's problem in 2020 was that he managed to turn a team competing with Denmark and Switzerland into a team competing with minnows. He had the squad, he didn't have the coaching or management skills however.

He played Hendrick last week ffs. Do you just pop into existence each day brand new?

Goodnight Boomers. Until a new Boomers arrives tomorrow.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

In their prime but getting dropped at club level as you said? Right you are so!

Your list is worthless in this discussion until those players are experienced. Please stop missing the point for the love of Gary Twigg.

But look, it's Friday. It's late. I give up. If you want to keep believing your odd version of events I don't think there's much anyone can do to help you.

White flag raised by ontheotherhand.

If you're only argument is a post I made about 1 weekend in 2020 then I think you're better off leaving it there. Facts will always come out on top.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

He played Hendrick last week ffs. Do you just pop into existence each day brand new?

Goodnight Boomers. Until a new Boomers arrives tomorrow.

Was Josh Cullen suspended or something? :D

You haven't taken been put back in your box that well. It's only the internet, take it easy.

[ontheotherhand]

Oh dear. Hendrick has played with Cullen in midfield in this very group. And with Knight and Molumby both available. So again, all those breakthroughs aren't doing much for you are they? Nor was that argument ever much use as I've pointed out to you.

But look, I'll give you the rest of the weekend to answer the question I posed you above. And don't brush it off as a one weekend post you made. That won't cut it. You wouldn't have called it a "huge problem for Kenny" in that scenario and your subsequent post was a year later by your own admission. So what changed?

So have a sleep. Let the ideas bounce around and come back to me with something to explain your turnaround. Or don't, it's getting a bit dull for me so I can't imagine how the rest of the forum feels. Apologies to one and all.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Oh dear. Hendrick has played with Cullen in midfield in this very group. And with Knight and Molumby both available. So again, all those breakthroughs aren't doing much for you are they? Nor was that argument ever much use as I've pointed out to you.

But look, I'll give you the rest of the weekend to answer the question I posed you above. And don't brush it off as a one weekend post you made. That won't cut it. You wouldn't have called it a "huge problem for Kenny" in that scenario and your subsequent post was a year later by your own admission. So what changed?

So have a sleep. Let the ideas bounce around and come back to me with something to explain your turnaround. Or don't, it's getting a bit dull for me so I can't imagine how the rest of the forum feels. Apologies to one and all.

Is that the experienced Hendrick or did he lose some experience as he got older? :D The point is that McCarthy didn't really have a choice, Kenny does......because of all the breakthroughs. Again, McCarthy's squad plus numerous breakthroughs is better than McCarthy's squad alone. It's pretty basic stuff.

It was a post about a weekend in 2020. It's really desperate stuff to be clinging onto that as your only argument. Maybe I should ask you how do you work out that players who get older lose experience? Somehow between McCarthy's last game and Kenny's first, players who turned 29 instead of 28 for example, actually lost experience. I think with points like that, it's only right that you apologise to anyone reading it.

[ontheotherhand]

Is that the experienced Hendrick or did he lose some experience as he got older? :D The point is that McCarthy didn't really have a choice, Kenny does......because of all the breakthroughs. Again, McCarthy's squad plus numerous breakthroughs is better than McCarthy's squad alone. It's pretty basic stuff.

It was a post about a weekend in 2020. It's really desperate stuff to be clinging onto that as your only argument. Maybe I should ask you how do you work out that players who get older lose experience? Somehow between McCarthy's last game and Kenny's first, players who turned 29 instead of 28 for example, actually lost experience. I think with points like that, it's only right that you apologise to anyone reading it.


That's not an answer. Why did you change your opinion that Kenny had a huge problem with players regressing in 2020? Surely the young talent coming through would have solved that? Take your time.

[tetsujin1979]

Is that the experienced Hendrick or did he lose some experience as he got older? :D The point is that McCarthy didn't really have a choice, Kenny does......because of all the breakthroughs. Again, McCarthy's squad plus numerous breakthroughs is better than McCarthy's squad alone. It's pretty basic stuff.

It was a post about a weekend in 2020. It's really desperate stuff to be clinging onto that as your only argument. Maybe I should ask you how do you work out that players who get older lose experience? Somehow between McCarthy's last game and Kenny's first, players who turned 29 instead of 28 for example, actually lost experience. I think with points like that, it's only right that you apologise to anyone reading it.

That's assuming that players' performance does not degrade due to things like aging, injuries, etc.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

That's not an answer. Why did you change your opinion that Kenny had a huge problem with players regressing in 2020? Surely the young talent coming through would have solved that? Take your time.

Ah lad, you're making a show of yourself now. I've answered the same question multiple times. The post said nothing about regressing. It was a moment in time in 2020. Let me give you an example. Shane Duffy was struggling with Celtic in 2020/2021. He was playing but having a bad time. He went back to Brighton and won his place back in a decent premier league outfit. These things happen, players go through ups and downs. The same happened during McCarthy's time and every other manager for Ireland. Even for some of our top players. Remember Robbie Keane having a tough time at Liverpool or moving to LA Galaxy? He was still banging them in for Ireland.

Also, some of the young players hadn't made a breakthrough at that point or were just starting too. I explained all this in 2021, you went through all my posts so you know this. Repeating the same question doesn't cover the fact that Kenny had the same squad as McCarthy minus Glenn Whelan and then a huge influx of young talent to choose from during his term. He's made a balls of it.

Now, with that comprehensively put to bed. Are you going to explain how players lost experience as they got older? Take your time. :D

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

That's assuming that players' performance does not degrade due to things like aging, injuries, etc.

Yes, as explained above. That happens. Every manager has to deal with it. The majority of Kenny's squad were between 27 and 29 though and really not much different to what McCarthy had a year earlier.

[ontheotherhand]

Ah lad, you're making a show of yourself now. I've answered the same question multiple times. The post said nothing about regressing. It was a moment in time in 2020. Let me give you an example. Shane Duffy was struggling with Celtic in 2020/2021. He was playing but having a bad time. He went back to Brighton and won his place back in a decent premier league outfit. These things happen, players go through ups and downs. The same happened during McCarthy's time and every other manager for Ireland. Even for some of our top players. Remember Robbie Keane having a tough time at Liverpool or moving to LA Galaxy? He was still banging them in for Ireland.

Also, some of the young players hadn't made a breakthrough at that point or were just starting too. I explained all this in 2021, you went through all my posts so you know this. Repeating the same question doesn't cover the fact that Kenny had the same squad as McCarthy minus Glenn Whelan and then a huge influx of young talent to choose from during his term. He's made a balls of it.

Now, with that comprehensively put to bed. Are you going to explain how players lost experience as they got older? Take your time. :D

Oh I didn't go through all your posts. I value my sanity slightly more than that. I just went back to see how this forum felt in 2020. As expected people recognized that we needed to refresh the squad due to players regressing and/or retiring. To my delight you yourself brought up the issue in the form of a lot of our options not doing so well at club level. And of course that happens for all managers but the dogs in the street knew Ireland had a particularly weak group of players who should have been in their prime and very little coming through that was ready. As you've said.

You've made some progress above though. At least you're now acknowledging the time complexities involved.

[John83]

Lads, would ye ever take it to PMs. The two of you yelling "less experienced" "no, extra players" at each other for days on end isn't reflecting well on either of you.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Oh I didn't go through all your posts. I value my sanity slightly more than that. I just went back to see how this forum felt in 2020. As expected people recognized that we needed to refresh the squad due to players regressing and/or retiring. To my delight you yourself brought up the issue in the form of a lot of our options not doing so well at club level. And of course that happens for all managers but the dogs in the street knew Ireland had a particularly weak group of players who should have been in their prime and very little coming through that was ready. As you've said.

You've made some progress above though. At least you're now acknowledging the time complexities involved.

Only Glenn Whelan was missing and he didn't retire! You just hate these facts ruining your arguments. :D

Look, I've explained it all as clearly as I can to you. I've backed it up with examples and actual factual information. You're just going on your opinion and fail to answer a simple question I posed to you.

As John says above, people are sick of your nonsense. I will do them all a favour and put you on ignore. Ciao.

[ontheotherhand]

Lads, would ye ever take it to PMs. The two of you yelling "less experienced" "no, extra players" at each other for days on end isn't reflecting well on either of you.

Ah I think we would have sorted it out by Christmas.

But yeah fair enough John, it was going nowhere. If he turns up in my PMs though.........I will find you.

[paul_oshea]

I can see the narrative for this group now already. In an attempt to see him through for the campaign after

[Jd2793]

I can see the narrative for this group now already. In an attempt to see him through for the campaign after

bore off will ya. its not some conspiracy at all. it is a FACT that the draw has nailed us against two of europes strongest teams. kenny wont be kept on if he doesnt get us to the euros. people acknowledging the fact we've been harshly done in the draw doesnt mean they want him kept on past 2024

[seanfhear]

bore off will ya. its not some conspiracy at all. it is a FACT that the draw has nailed us against two of europes strongest teams. kenny wont be kept on if he doesnt get us to the euros. people acknowledging the fact we've been harshly done in the draw doesnt mean they want him kept on past 2024
Luck of the Draw ~ ~ Not harshly done.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Looks like a tough draw but when you look back, the top 2 are no better than who we got in the last euro draw. France and the Netherlands got knocked out in the round of 16 games at Euro 2020 while Switzerland got knocked out on penalties by Spain in the quarter finals after knocking out France. Denmark made it to the semi finals. We came close to qualifying with them two. Greece is a tough 4th seed but they could take points off the top 2.