Stephen Kenny

[seanfhear]

Sure there are Woke-ers around now that would expect Kenny to play ~ “ God Save the Queen " to the Irish team !

[BonnieShels]

You mean that missing bit where Mick did a Robert the Bruce impression and finally prevailed after 3 failures to qualify?

Take it easy Bonnie, 5 posts in a row after a hiatus longer than a Trapatoni era hoof ??

Not quite. But I guess we could send Weldoninho to Rathlin to make him think about what he's done. It would spare us the anti-Kenny schtick for a bit.

[BonnieShels]

Sure there are Woke-ers around now that would expect Kenny to play ~ “ God Save the Queen " to the Irish team !

The recent and nauseating need to show "how grown up we are" the last few years is well, nauseating.

Much like this post's construction.

[Real ale Madrid]

Stephen Kenny is an innocent maauun.

[Trequartista20]

An appraisal of the Kenny era thus far:

Positives:

We've attempted to keep the ball on the floor and play a bit more football - and, to our credit, our players have shown themselves as being a deal more capable of passing the ball to one another over 5 yards than previous regimes have suggested possible.

Kenny was reluctant to bring him in, but Dara O'Shea has shown himself to be a very useful and capable find, with an ability to play across the backline. A very welcome addition.

Again Kenny's arm had to be forced but, beyond O'Shea, we've brought in a number of very promising looking players such as Knight and Byrne, giving genuine hope for the future.

Negatives:

No wins in 8 matches. No goals in 11 hours. No shots on target in our last match, at home against an extremely poor Bulgaria side.

We look extremely shaky at the back, with our previous defensive solidity now seemingly a thing of the past. Asking players unsuited to playing out from the back such as Randolph and Duffy to do so, even when we're being pressed, seems foolhardy.

Doherty's comments about players 'giving up' are very troubling. Even in our very worst moments under previous managers you'd at least expect our players to give their all.

Kenny's investment in the tried and failed. Players like Horgan, not good enough for the Scottish Premiership let alone the English Championship, is disquieting. He isn't and will never be good enough.

We are too easy to play against. Predictable, passive, ponderous and wholly lacking in aggression and urgency.

We offer no goal threat with seemingly no offensive plan and no attacking conviction whatever. And the statistics obviously bear this out.

Our set-pieces have been poor. No quick throw-in, free-kicks or corners, and no imagination. It seems these haven't been worked on at all - criminal, particularly given our powder-puff attack.

Kenny's apparent personal dislike of certain players like Obafemi and Byrne is hurting us.

The Ill-thought-through 'political' video shown before the pointless England friendly that has seemingly upset and alienated a number of players and members of the coaching staff seems, on the face of it, to be a serious error of judgement.

[pineapple stu]

RTÉ puts a bit more flesh on the video itself -


RTÉ Sport understands that two-and-a-half minutes of the video was famous goals scored against England, from Ray Houghton, Kevin Sheedy, Niall Quinn, Tony Cascarino and Shane Long, followed by 30 seconds of "historical context" of the relationship between Ireland and England

The first part is exactly what I'd expect to have seen. Then the offending part seems to be a 30-second clip. That could be a speech scene from Michael Collins or something similar. I can understand that being reasonable in the context. The Indo article makes it sound like they all sat down and watched the whole film, which would be silly.

I'd be less inclined to be bothered about a 30-second clip tbh (acknowledging that I don't know what it was - but how bad can it have been?)

[Eminence Grise]

The lyrics of that song are really an ode to supporting the Irish team in spite of our better sense:

Gee, Bonnie, I never had you pegged as a devotee of Celtic fusion. It's all coming out in the wash tonight!;)

Mind you, they used to say the definition of a music lover was a man who put his ear to the keyhole when he heard one of the Corr sisters singing in the shower.

[seanfhear]

RTÉ puts a bit more flesh on the video itself -



The first part is exactly what I'd expect to have seen. Then the offending part seems to be a 30-second clip. That could be a speech scene from Michael Collins or something similar. I can understand that being reasonable in the context. The Indo article makes it sound like they all sat down and watched the whole film, which would be silly.

I'd be less inclined to be bothered about a 30-second clip tbh (acknowledging that I don't know what it was - but how bad can it have been?)
Bar going over to London to be suckered in to signing that Treaty, Michael Collins was a great fella altogether. Sure they made a film about him and everything.

Sure even the Brits were upset when Michael Collins got whacked !

[ontheotherhand]

In response to yourself Trequartista20 (https://foot.ie/members/21299-Trequartista20)

Some good points but I'd offer a few different takes. Not sure why I'm defending Kenny but I just think we are too early here make too many clear judgements.

>Obafemi isn't getting a game anywhere at the minute (was even on the bench for the 21s) and could do with learning a lesson after his petulant little tweet.

>Doherty has plenty of form going to the media with his gripes so I wouldn't put too much stock in what he says yet. I don't see a lack of effort, just a lack of cohesion and composure.

>We can't score because we have no striker - we've created chances but haven't stuck them away.

>Hard to practice set pieces when your team changes every matchday and you're limited in the time you can spend with them. Dundalk were well drilled in set pieces and scored plenty.

>Horgan probably wouldn't be involved if not for the missing players. As it is, with covid making it a risk to go too far afield perhaps, I'd say Kenny just wanted to stick to players he knew who were close by and it was a bonus if he knew them well. Horgan did as well as anyone else to be fair to him but he will be dropped when Robinson/O'Dowda/Connolly/Hendrick etc are all available.

>We look shaky at the back with Duffy for sure but we still aren't conceding much outside of the England game. It's the other end I'd be more worried about and we aren't working with our first choice backline at all. Not even close to it.

>Not sure what to make of the video but as I said above, if the leaker is who the Independent suggest, then he has form and should be the one removed.

But really, why the are the FAI investigating this and not Delaney?

[elatedscum]

3 minutes long? I hope Kenny played the Alan Partridge video

[Trequartista20]

I'd agree with some of that OTOH.

Maybe I'm being a bit hard on Kenny and the team, and no doubt I'll feel unjustifiably optimistic by the time the next set of fixtures come round.

It's the nature of being a fan.

[Razors left peg]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where I'm not allowed to hate the English

[ColourfulPeanut]

Good point, would it have been too much to ask for Kenny to include some D Day footage, a clip or two of Churchill, maybe even a few seconds of Bobby Moore lifting the World Cup, to keep our dual nationals onside?
Yeah because that's what I said.

You can be pro-Irish without being anti-English and it seems like this could have been the latter.

[seanfhear]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where I'm not allowed to hate the English
They are not that fond of us either !

[Trequartista20]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where I'm not allowed to hate the English

I'm not sure it's really healthy to hate anyone, especially based irrationally on what they are rather than who they are.

[Razors left peg]

I'm not sure it's really healthy to hate anyone, especially based irrationally on what they are rather than who they are.
I'm obviously taking the pi$$ , this sounds a nonsense story of the highest order

[Trequartista20]

They are not that fond of us either !

I fear your hatred of the English is largely unrequited.

[seanfhear]

I fear your hatred of the English is largely unrequited.
The English are not that fond of the Irish ~ ~ I can tell you that as someone who lived there for years.

[Fixer82]

Did ya foyl the ball Kyenny? Did ya foyl the ball?

[DCWA]

RTÉ puts a bit more flesh on the video itself -



The first part is exactly what I'd expect to have seen. Then the offending part seems to be a 30-second clip. That could be a speech scene from Michael Collins or something similar. I can understand that being reasonable in the context. The Indo article makes it sound like they all sat down and watched the whole film, which would be silly.

I'd be less inclined to be bothered about a 30-second clip tbh (acknowledging that I don't know what it was - but how bad can it have been?)

As touched upon by another poster the story is the leaking/reporting of the clip not of the clip itself by someone who simply has to be out to get SK. It is someone close enough to have been there and has then went to the FAI board complaining about what essentially nothing really.

There simply has to be further involvement in the Irish camp for the individual involved and any decision apart from this made by the FAI will be a national disgrace.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Until we hear exactly what this 30 seconds consisted of - and maybe Kenny's own talk that allegedly touched on a similar topic - it's impossible to judge. It could be a ridiculous non-story, an underhanded coup or a sackable offence. Silly thing to do for a friendly all the same.

[Trequartista20]

The English are not that fond of the Irish ~ ~ I can tell you that as someone who lived there for years.

I'm sorry if you've felt discriminated against. I've lived in London for the best part of five years and that hasn't been my experience, but I know my father got some rough treatment in years gone by.

[DCWA]

Until we hear exactly what this 30 seconds consisted of - and maybe Kenny's own talk that allegedly touched on a similar topic - it's impossible to judge. It could be a ridiculous non-story, an underhanded coup or a sackable offence. Silly thing to do for a friendly all the same.

Ah here unless it was 30 second description of how many pieces Airey Neive’s body ended up in then it is clearly already a non story. **** poor motivational tactics certainly and in keeping with the ridiculousness of the game even happening.

There simply can be no room for such an individual so close to the camp from here I don’t think that can be disputed.

[backstothewall]

Men and women knowingly gave up their lives to free most of this country from the English. There's been no shortage of English born people of Irish heritage who have spoken about that being a proud part of their heritage.


The first music I was ever exposed to was the rebel songs the bands used to sing in the Irish club in Manchester. Do you know, I think that's where Oasis songs get their punch-the-air quality - from me being exposed to those rousing rebel songs. It was all rebel songs and that godawful Irish country and western music.

If Irish patriotism doesn't sit comfortably with someone, be that player, coach or backroom staff, and no matter where they were born or how they came to be Irish, I have to question what business they have being in an Irish dressing room.

That Stephen Kenny couldn't have dreamed a better way to claim back some support makes be dubious that the story hasn't been planted by the FAI. Either way it's a load of ********.

[Charlie Darwin]

In this snowflake world in which we live in these days this is probably a good enough reason to sack kenny and the FAI can hide behind it as opposed to saying we never wanted him and don't think he is up to it.
The people making this into a story, I suspect, are the same who deride others as snowflakes. I see the scumbag Kelvin MacKenzie is on his high horse already.

[Bielsa´s irish]

This is exactly my take on it.

This may be an scandal for the english media. The coach is entitled to speak about any issue. This isnt an issue for the Republic, thanked God the talk about life and politics.

[Bielsa´s irish]

so they have the poppy and all that, and Ireland cant talk politics, this is a bit of double stardarization of sports and politics

[Bielsa´s irish]

If the english media pick up this story it can escalate because of double standard

[Bielsa´s irish]

Men and women knowingly gave up their lives to free most of this country from the English. There's been no shortage of English born people of Irish heritage who have spoken about that being a proud part of their heritage.



If Irish patriotism doesn't sit comfortably with someone, be that player, coach or backroom staff, and no matter where they were born or how they came to be Irish, I have to question what business they have being in an Irish dressing room.

That Stephen Kenny couldn't have dreamed a better way to claim back some support makes be dubious that the story hasn't been planted by the FAI. Either way it's a load of ********.

If someone is disgusted by that , there is always a door. I read a lot about the abuse for playing for Ireland James McCarthy had , his parents and relatives in Scotland as McGeady had

[seanfhear]

The people making this into a story, I suspect, are the same who deride others as snowflakes. I see the scumbag Kelvin MacKenzie is on his high horse already.
**** Kelvin MacKenzie.

[backstothewall]

I see the scumbag Kelvin MacKenzie is on his high horse already.

This is a major u-turn in the space of 24 hours, but **** it. If that **** MacKenzie wants him sacked, I'm joining the #KennyIn camp. No way we give Murdoch's tan handpuppet a head.

[Bielsa´s irish]

I'm less worried about the political correctness and more worried that Kenny thinks showing In The Name of the Father is in some way going to help his team achieve a result against the English. Next time he should send somebody other than James McClean to Xtravision when he's looking to organise a movie night for the squad.

The more I see and hear about Kenny the more he appears to be out of his depth. I hear Escape to Victory is loaded into the VCR on the off chance we get drawn against Germany for the World Cup.

Great remark!! There was an irish player Ossie and Pele plus Caine Max V.S and Stallone!!

[Bielsa´s irish]

Here in Southamerica is very usual, politics remarks and videos, or clips to "motivate" in the end it is always 11vs11.

Here with this we have 2 scenarios

1) The english new CEO is angry because of this leaked situation about politics and football is not morally and ethical correct etc
2)They are using this situation to get rid of S.K because they didnt choose him

[pineapple stu]

I think showing a motivational video is more common than you might think. I know when UCD played Slovan Bratislava in the Europa League for example, it's exactly what the manager did. (When we played Dudelange, he used all the social media comments as motivation instead). You wouldn't do it for every league game of course, but for a big game, I don't see the issue. Ultimately these are guys who've gone through the various coaching badges and I would say it's an idea recommended there too.

(I agree with you that Bielsa is talking ****e though)

[tetsujin1979]

Since the story broke last night, it has devolved from anti-English political message to a three minute video featuring clips from previous games, and some details from the Easter rising.
It sounds like it was only one member of staff, who is English-born, that was offended by it. No player has made a statement yet.
The bigger story is why it was leaked in the first page, and to the Daily Mail, of all papers.

[Olé Olé]

I see the second most read football article on the Guardian today is a report on this. Headline refers to the "anti-English" nature of the video. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/nov/19/ireland-manager-stephen-kenny-faces-fai-probe-anti-english-video

This episode is painful in many ways and doesn't help anyone in the FAI or the team.
1) It's a shame with everything going on in the world that we have created a sh*tstorm which serves to augment any negative opinions held in England about us as a people;
2) There must be a lot of people involved in pushing this story. It has taken over a week for this to go from the dressing room to the boardroom;
3) A video about Anglo-Irish relations would be inherently anti-English. That is the inevitable result of colonialism. I would be interested to understand how it has been interpreted as anti-English by some genius somewhere- presenting a set of historic facts would be sufficient to rouse most Irishmen and it would have to take a fairly aggressive narrative or tone on that fact set for the message to move the video towards being offensive.

[Closed Account 2]

It sounds like it may have been a naive decision rather than a malicious one. From a motivation perspective, I wouldn't do it personally, but I don't have an inherent issue with something like this being used in a team-talk (assuming it wasn't excessively political). But there are a few questions:

- Would political stuff really motivate players?
- Do the players need motivation for a match vs England?
- Did Kenny not think, "Humm this could backfire if we lose"?
- Would it not have been better to show technical videos showing weaknesses within the English team and how we might exploit them (e.g. poor defence out wide etc, keeper's off form in terms of saving long shots)?
- If this is Kenny's motivational strategy how would it work against non-UK teams? It's a bit one dimensional. What could he show for other opponents? Henry's handball if we play France? A video of Cascarino getting attacked on the pitch in Bursa if we play Turkey?

If it was a very political video then I think it may have been unwise.

[pineapple stu]

1) It's a shame with everything going on in the world that we have created a sh*tstorm which serves to augment any negative opinions held in England about us as a people;

Have we created a ****storm?

Or have the English media created it?

Look at yer man MacKenzie on Twitter for example - that's him creating it.

Why doesn't the Guardian mention what RTÉ reports - that of a 3-minute video, there was 2½ minutes of goals from previous Ireland v England games, and 30 seconds of "historical context". That's not, as you say, "a video about Anglo-Irish relations". It's a world apart. It could be 30 seconds of "Ireland unfree shall never be at peace" - harmless stuff which would just get a bit of a gee-up going.

I agree with you though that history can't really be offensive. It is stuff that actually happened.

[pineapple stu]

- Do the players need motivation for a match vs England?
Why not? Every extra bit helps surely?


- Did Kenny not think, "Humm this could backfire if we lose"?
You'd never get anything done if you spent the whole time wondering about what someone was going to be offended by.


- Would it not have been better to show technical videos showing weaknesses within the English team and how we might exploit them (e.g. poor defence out wide etc, keeper's off form in terms of saving long shots)?
Why can't you show both? But I can well imagine you finish prep off with something light - one final team-bonding session before heading for the dressing room. Rebel songs on the bus to Stuttgart, or a shout of "We'll do them for yiz today" That's not the time for heavy tactical analysis (which will be recapped in the dressing room)


- If this is Kenny's motivational strategy how would it work against non-UK teams? It's a bit one dimensional. What could he show for other opponents? Henry's handball if we play France? A video of Cascarino getting attacked on the pitch in Bursa if we play Turkey?
The Henry handball would be a great one to show before a game against France I think. As I put in the WC qualifying thread (and the topic has seeped into two threads, but best keep it here I think), when UCD played Dudelange in the Europa League, there was print-outs of the various negative social media against UCD in the lead-up to the match. Before the Slovan game, there was a motivational video featuring the players' best contributions during the season (to show them they had earned the right to play against Slovan and shouldn't be overawed by them). This sort of stuff can take many forms. Against the old enemy, then the goals from previous matches sounds perfect, and 30 seconds of "800 years, etc" sounds a fairly harmless addition at the end.

If the English are that offended by history, they probably shouldn't have made it.

(All subject of course to what was actually on the video)

[seanfhear]

The English started it ! Why didn’t they just stay in England ?

[seanfhear]

Since the story broke last night, it has devolved from anti-English political message to a three minute video featuring clips from previous games, and some details from the Easter rising.
It sounds like it was only one member of staff, who is English-born, that was offended by it. No player has made a statement yet.
The bigger story is why it was leaked in the first page, and to the Daily Mail, of all papers.
Much ado about nothing ~ ~ who ever leaked this should be sacked ~ ~ Is it just a ploy to undermine Kenny ?

[lofty9]

My favourite take on this is from those giving Kenny abuse for doing this 'motivational video' for a meaningless/bounce game against England are the same ones shouting loudest at the 3 -0 defeat and performance.

[zero]

My favourite take on this is from those giving Kenny abuse for doing this 'motivational video' for a meaningless/bounce game against England are the same ones shouting loudest at the 3 -0 defeat and performance.

I thought the performance v England (and most of our performances under Kenny to be fair) was woeful but this is a non-story. I expect it will all blow over by the weekend.

Seems to me 99% of people either have no issue with the video or think it was a bit amateurish at worst.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I have no inherent objections to such things being used as a motivator, as long is there is no straying over into territory we might call "inciting hatred". If pitched right I'm sure they can be useful. It's just it was a friendly in an empty stadium against the England B-team. For that reason I would think a bit much, even, at the risk of sounding harsh, a little pathetic, to be referencing such things ahead of such a match. If it was a do-or-die qualifier or a tournament match, that would be something else.

We're kind of unable to say more of use without knowing exactly what that 30 seconds is, I see all sorts of claims flying around (I'm seeing 1916 referenced a lot, but no concrete details). But if it is, as some think, some reference to England's historical record in Ireland, well, the truth can hurt. Stuff happened. If the English are displeased about it being brought up, well, imagine how the Irish felt at the time.

I mean, we've all experienced/heard stories about crazy things being said in dressing rooms as motivation. It should stay there. For it to be leaked like this is disquieting. "Lost the dressing room" talk isn't far away, and that's a death knell.

[DCWA]

1) It's a shame with everything going on in the world that we have created a sh*tstorm which serves to augment any negative opinions held in England about us as a people;


Why exactly is this a shame and how exactly is it anything to do with us ?

[Olé Olé]

Why exactly is this a shame and how exactly is it anything to do with us ?
It's needless. Who does it serve?

[Olé Olé]

Have we created a ****storm?

Or have the English media created it?

Look at yer man MacKenzie on Twitter for example - that's him creating it.

Why doesn't the Guardian mention what RTÉ reports - that of a 3-minute video, there was 2½ minutes of goals from previous Ireland v England games, and 30 seconds of "historical context". That's not, as you say, "a video about Anglo-Irish relations". It's a world apart. It could be 30 seconds of "Ireland unfree shall never be at peace" - harmless stuff which would just get a bit of a gee-up going.

I agree with you though that history can't really be offensive. It is stuff that actually happened.

I agree with all your points. I am just a little disappointed that the FAI couldn't deal with it in-house instead of creating the story by issuing a statement and RTE being able to run with it. It's low-hanging fruit for the British media and even the Irish media.

[pineapple stu]

Well it seems it was the Daily Mail who broke the story, presumably because someone leaked it to them. Once that had happened, the FAI couldn't keep it in-house. (And I'm assuming it wasn't someone in the FAI who leaked it of course)

[Closed Account 2]

You'd never get anything done if you spent the whole time wondering about what someone was going to be offended by.

The issue isn't necessarily that someone is going to be offended by it. It's more that it was a potentially naive and ultimately ineffective approach. Stephen Kenny lacks significant high level experience in management, he has looked out of his depth, the idea of showing a political video was risky (other members of the management team apparently tried to dissuade him). Doherty alluded to the players lacking motivation in a post match interview, so the video doesn't seem to have worked. The whole incident looks like it is re-enforcing the idea of an amateurish management approach, making bad decision after bad decision.


Why can't you show both? But I can well imagine you finish prep off with something light - one final team-bonding session before heading for the dressing room.

For me the tactical stuff, the strengths and weaknesses of our own team, the analysis of the style of play of opposition should come first. If that has all been done and the players are fully attuned to the tactical side, and then, and only then, the manager wants to show what sounds like a Mike Bassett-esque tub-thumping video then OK.



The Henry handball would be a great one to show before a game against France I think.

Agree, as perhaps can be gleaned from my signature. I think a brief mention of this is ok, as it points out a few things (1) we more than matched a world class team away from home relatively recently, (2) we were good enough to have qualified for the world cup, (3) dubious behaviour *on the pitch* by a French player prevented us from reaching the world cup (4) it's not a point about wider political history.

But one problem with this approach is it is only possible versus a handful of teams against whom we have experienced similar issues. What other teams could you do something similar for? Maybe Wales over the Coleman tackle? It doesn't work for that many opponents as there isn't too much on-field history.


When UCD played Dudelange in the Europa League, there was print-outs of the various negative social media against UCD in the lead-up to the match.

I think that's a bit different to this England video. The UCD approach is essentially, "These people don't think you're good enough, prove them wrong". UCD weren't deconstructing Luxembourgish history to motivate the players.


Before the Slovan game, there was a motivational video featuring the players' best contributions during the season (to show them they had earned the right to play against Slovan and shouldn't be overawed by them).

Again that is different, it's positive self-based motivation. It doesn't reference anything about the opposition (or political/historical stuff about Slovakia). Arguably it's tactical as well, showing what the players did well, what tactics were most effective etc. I think it would be a sensible and rational approach for any coach to do this.

[Straightstory]

Kenny showing the video was unwise and counter-productive, but I reckon probably inoffensive.
What's more alarming is the jingoistic, old-school anti-Englishness which is evident on this thread, even from some posters who I thought would know better. I'd really thought we'd gone beyond that. Very depressing.