Stephen Kenny

[tetsujin1979]

James McClean wasted a superb opportunity to pick a square ball for a [Shane Long?] tap-in but he pulled it back to the pen spot instead. There was quite a bit of debate about it at the time but one camera angle showed just how easy a pass it was and just how poor it was that McClean didn't see it.
Was that the chance that Daryl Murphy had? He slid in for a low cross from McClean, but it went beyond him

[DCWA]

McClean shot didn’t he as opposed to looking for Murphy who would have been hard to miss had James lifted his head iirc.

[Exgrad]

James McClean wasted a superb opportunity to pick a square ball for a [Shane Long?] tap-in but he pulled it back to the pen spot instead. There was quite a bit of debate about it at the time but one camera angle showed just how easy a pass it was and just how poor it was that McClean didn't see it.

Yeah remember that one, i think McClean had a shot rather than pulling it back though? Either way it should have been a simple pass and tap in for Long. Think that was at 2-1 to France.

[Stuttgart88]

Murphy, that's it. Thanks.

[Exgrad]

had to go and have a look!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhJC4tOsRWs

at 7.20. McClean tries to pull it back to penalty spot for Long, Murphy was on for the tap in if he squared it.

[DCWA]

had to go and have a look!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhJC4tOsRWs

at 7.20. McClean tries to pull it back to penalty spot for Long, Murphy was on for the tap in if he squared it.

Funny how the memory plays up I could have sworn the chance was to make it 0-2 and actually I thought it was a lot worse from McClean than it actually is. Still not great mind you.

Wrong all round!

[Fixer82]

On 5 mins we had a good chance where McClean crossed into danger area and Murphy almost got a toe to it.
France's second goal was Duffy's fault. Got drawn towards the ball and caught in no-man's land, leaving Griezmann totally open to score.
They had been all over us for about 15-20 mins at that stage

[paul_oshea]

No for our Waterford man murphy.

Interestingly the independent goes with the idea that we were on top for an hour.

"When Murphy brought a save from Lloris at full stretch in the midst of the first half, the Irish contingent sang: “We’re going to beat the French.” It was not to be. The Irish fans will always have the memory of that hour’s inconceivable supremacy against the French. It may just take them a while to appreciate the fact."


And then to elatedscums point:
"And then a series of circumstances collided. The heat of the afternoon sun. Ireland’s mere three days’ preparation time, against France’s full week. The technical superiority of the opposition. That side’s depth of tactical options. It was a perfect storm that Ireland could not contend with, allowing France to restore parity and finish their challengers off in the space of nine brutal minutes. By the end, Ireland were listing desperately and, you had to imagine, ready for it all to come to an end."

6 or 7 unnecessary posts where I'd already said it was Murphy.

[Fixer82]

Sean McLoughlin won Hull a city POTM. Does he even have his own thread on here?

[Kingdom]

Sean McLoughlin won Hull a city POTM. Does he even have his own thread on here?

It shows how decent our strength in depth at CB is that someone who has by all accounts had a very good season for Hull including a POTM award, isn't even in the conversation for squad consideration. When you think of it in those terms, and looking at Darragh Lenihan who has constantly been good at that level, I do wonder when I hear Duffy being discussed as a possible option to start, when in reality he's lucky to be in the conversation for a squad place.

[Razors left peg]

It shows how decent our strength in depth at CB is that someone who has by all accounts had a very good season for Hull including a POTM award, isn't even in the conversation for squad consideration. When you think of it in those terms, and looking at Darragh Lenihan who has constantly been good at that level, I do wonder when I hear Duffy being discussed as a possible option to start, when in reality he's lucky to be in the conversation for a squad place.

Duffy shouldnt even be talked about as a squad option right now. He hasnt played any football in an age.

[Fixer82]

Duffy shouldnt even be talked about as a squad option right now. He hasnt played any football in an age.

He has. I saw him recently against Sunderland. He played great

[Razors left peg]

He has. I saw him recently against Sunderland. He played great

Fair enough, didn't see that but he's still not playing enough when we have so many options

[third policeman]

Interesting

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/england-job-carsley-gerrard-lampard-29459337

[tetsujin1979]

Brian Kerr asked about Seamus Coleman's injury on virgin media, and instead launches into Kenny's management
1639349254715224064

[Razors left peg]

The "experienced" players he listed as not being there are exactly why I still want Kenny to do well. He's been brave to cut the deadwood that other guys like Kerr would have kept. Randolph would prob still be our keeper if it was up to Kerr

[tetsujin1979]

The "experienced" players he listed as not being there are exactly why I still want Kenny to do well. He's been brave to cut the deadwood that other guys like Kerr would have kept. Randolph would prob still be our keeper if it was up to Kerr
Duffy is injured, and that 's the first time anyone has said Hourihane should be in the squad since the Armenia game

[Jd2793]

brian is talking through his hoop.

[TonyD]

The "experienced" players he listed as not being there are exactly why I still want Kenny to do well. He's been brave to cut the deadwood that other guys like Kerr would have kept. Randolph would prob still be our keeper if it was up to Kerr

Yeah, as much as I love Brian, he does seem to have issues with Stephen Kenny. Apart from Seamus Coleman, I cant think of any other experienced players we’re missing. Couldn’t believe it when he mentioned Hourihane.

On the French game. Scary stuff so far. This could end up a real thumping. Still, we might actually be better if France romp through the group, maybe give us a shot at taking the Dutch ?

[Razors left peg]

What's wrong here? All he said that was directly at Kenny was about him wanting experience(players) in the team and he doesn't believe "the manager" does. I think most of what he said was fair and objective.

It might be fair if the experienced players he mentioned weren't all the players we are delighted we've moved on from. I think collectively the pro Kenny and anti Kenny lads would all agree that the players Kerr listed were part of the problem and Kenny was right to move on from them

[pineapple stu]

When you say "It might be fair if..." - the reason you've then given is why the comments are fair, no?

[Razors left peg]

I've no idea what you mean but let me explain my point further. Kerr listed Duffy, Hourihane, Robinson, McGoldrick and Brady as experienced players left out. Kerr thinks we need more experience. Does anyone think we are missing these players? Or was Kenny right to move on.

Apart from the lad who was calling for the return of Jack Charlton and would probably play Duffy as a striker, I think most here are glad we have moves to a younger squad. The "experienced players" left out are deadwood that we are glad we have moved on from

[SkStu]

No, we’re not. Plus one retired three years ago and another is injured and not available. We have experience covering the others (Egan for Duffy and McClean for Brady). Hourihane is a joke. It was an absolutely rubbish point from Kerr.

[pineapple stu]

I've no idea what you mean but let me explain my point further. Kerr listed Duffy, Hourihane, Robinson, McGoldrick and Brady as experienced players left out. Kerr thinks we need more experience. Does anyone think we are missing these players? Or was Kenny right to move on.
But Kerr himself says "That needed to be done" of those guys. The point then is that when you cull experience like that, what experienced players you have left become more important.

He then concludes by saying that because of this, it's "important that some of the experienced guys play [on Monday]" - referring to Coleman and Doherty in particular - "but I'm not sure the manager thinks it's important that experienced players play in this game"

That all sounds reasonable to me?

[Razors left peg]

Coleman is injured,McClean, Hendrick and Egan all came on the other day and Doherty started. Doherty and Egan will start vs France, McClean might and we'll see what story is with Colemans injury.

So Kenny does use experienced players, Kerr is talking out his ar$e

[pineapple stu]

Well that's a different point to what you were arguing originally in fairness!

[SkStu]

But Kerr himself says "That needed to be done" of those guys. The point then is that when you cull experience like that, what experienced players you have left become more important.

He then concludes by saying that because of this, it's "important that some of the experienced guys play [on Monday]" - referring to Coleman and Doherty in particular - "but I'm not sure the manager thinks it's important that experienced players play in this game"

That all sounds reasonable to me?

It was his last line that bothered me. “I’m not sure the manager thinks it’s important that very experienced players play” - he didn’t end it with “in this game” though it may have been his reference. I had referred that back to his initial point about Kenny leaving out experienced players therefore not valuing experience in general. Either way, it was a dig and he made his point about Kenny not valuing experience fairly poorly whatever way he intended it.

[Razors left peg]

Well that's a different point to what you were arguing originally in fairness!
It really isn't, I don't understand why this is even being argued to be honest.My point is that the players Kerr listed as being left out needed to be left out. He said that Kenny doesn't believe in experience, untrue, but he is rebuilding a squad with young players.

I said in previous post that if Kerr was in charge we'd prob still have Randolph in goals. There are things Kenny can be criticized for, Kerrs comments the other day missed the mark completely and I think most here would agree with that

[Crosby87]

Kerr would have Given in goal, forget about Randolph.

[samhaydenjr]

I think the problem with the Kerr point is that he positions it as a choice for Kenny to value experience less than Kerr would, when I think that the current reality is that we have only a handful of players with significant experience playing at the highest level. And now we are reaching a point where the young talent has progressed to a point where their abilities surpass the experience benefits of limited players like Hourihane, Hogan, Keane, Duffy who haven't played that much at the top level. Conversely, when Mick was manager, the young talent hadn't really broken through and he had little choice but to stick with middling players, with more experience (remember, that when Mick took over, Matt Doherty was only in his first Premier League season). So I guess my point is that the pendulum has swung towards putting out the talented youngsters in this campaign and Kenny is just accepting that, moreso than him actively forcing the issue, as Kerr seems to imply he's doing.

In terms of the qualifying and the interest we now have in other groups, there have been a couple of significant results already:
On the positive side:
In Group A, Sweden were soundly beaten 3-0 at home by Belgium: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/65071966 - Austria also got off to a good start with a 4-0 win over Azerbaijan
In Group D, Wales look like they might put up a fight for their spot post-Bale, snatching a late draw in Croatia: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/64997971
In group G, I was a little concerned about the potential for a resurgent Bulgaria to take a qualifying spot ahead of Serbia or Hungary were eased as they lost 1-0 at home to Montenegro (anyone remember when Bulgaria were practically invincible at home?)
In group J, Slovakia and Luxembourg played out a scoreless draw, doing neither of them much good

On the concerning side:
In Group I, Israel got off to a poor start, with a home draw against Kosovo

[pineapple stu]

It really isn't, I don't understand why this is even being argued to be honest.My point is that the players Kerr listed as being left out needed to be left out. He said that Kenny doesn't believe in experience,
But Kerr said that the players Kenny left out of the squad that it "needed to be done", so you can't say Kerr is criticising Kent when he's agreeing with him.

He didn't say Kenny doesn't believe in experience. SkStu has it for me when he says the point is more than Kenny doesn't value experience. Very different to saying he doesn't believe in it.

But the point about Hendrick is fair in response. Egan still seems too young to be "experienced" though I know he's only a year or two younger than Hendrick!

Suggesting Kerr would still have Randolph in nets is a bit silly tbh.

[Insidetherock]

Is there we should be discussing "Kenny v Kerr", or can we not create a second thread and do it over there

This thread should be for discussion about Group B, and what is happening in other Groups that might effect Group B

[Snapshot]

I've no idea what you mean but let me explain my point further. Kerr listed Duffy, Hourihane, Robinson, McGoldrick and Brady as experienced players left out. Kerr thinks we need more experience. Does anyone think we are missing these players? Or was Kenny right to move on.

Apart from the lad who was calling for the return of Jack Charlton and would probably play Duffy as a striker, I think most here are glad we have moves to a younger squad. The "experienced players" left out are deadwood that we are glad we have moved on from
Who called for the return of Jack Charlton? The man is dead, by the way.

[Razors left peg]

Who called for the return of Jack Charlton? The man is dead, by the way.

So is his style of football, some don't want to admit it though

[Snapshot]

So is his style of football, some don't want to admit it though

My call was for a defensive Charlton-style setup against France and not a wholesale return to his mindset. I made no reference whatsoever to Duffy or where he should play. That was your creation, similar to your Hourihane comment for which you were challenged. Ditto your comment on Kerr/Randolph. Also, it's puerile to suggest nil generational change other than with Kenny.

[Razors left peg]

Revert to Big Jack - put them under pressure. Kenny's naive tip-tap equals total disaster.

Right so this was just about the France game and not a wholesale change to our approach going forward. Glad you cleared that up....


Charlton took a little bit of time to implement his mindset, alienating one our greatest ever players in Liam Brady to get what he wanted, it took time but he got results. But you're right, Kenny should throw out everything they have been working on to this point and take an exact opposite approach to how we play in the space of a couple of days.


To get any result against the French we are absolutely going to have to work our balls off, but there's nothing to say we can't try keep hold of the ball a bit and not just lump it forward every time. Especially when we don't have a big target man striker like Charlton had in Quinn or Cascarino.... oh and let's not forget that Jack's style of football even stopped working as effectively after 92 when the back pass rule was implemented and his players couldn't get a breather.


Nesta did a great post on another thread about what we are doing as a footballing nation throughout all levels. I'd rather we continue that than revert back to kick and rush that doesn't even work anymore. I can't imagine anything worse than to sit back and continue to give possession to a team with Mbappe.

[elatedscum]

. I can't imagine anything worse than to sit back and continue to give possession to a team with Mbappe.

All bull**** from certain posters aside, that is the real difficulty tomorrow. The only thing worse than giving Mbappe easy possession is giving him loads of space to exploit. You don’t want to need a Dunne v Russia performance (they come about about once a decade) but at the same time nine times out of ten when you overcommit and come out of your shell, that’s when you’re most vulnerable to the pace and skill of Mbappe, Coman, Muani etc.

Thinking of the premier league, brighton are the only ‘small team’ prepared to go head to head with the big boys, everyone else just stays in a shell for 70 mins, tries to break or get something from a set piece and stay in the game long enough to cause a late upset.

In Ireland’s case - I hope we outwork them, I hope the crowd is lively and plays in our favour (ala Germany and Shane Long). I hope every young player involved has the game of their careers. I hope it’s a blend - you’re never gonna be able to outplay France for 90 mins but, if the footballers play, you can create a handful of chances - which you need to take. Combine that with resolute defending and maybe we have a chance. Ferguson can play. Obafemi’s pace can cause anyone problems (same with Ogbene and Johnstone) - hopefully there’s some creativity from the third midfielder, presumably Knight or Smallbone or McGrath.

There’s a reason we’re 10/1 but at the same time, ya gotta believe…

[Snapshot]

Right so this was just about the France game and not a wholesale change to our approach going forward. Glad you cleared that up....


Charlton took a little bit of time to implement his mindset, alienating one our greatest ever players in Liam Brady to get what he wanted, it took time but he got results. But you're right, Kenny should throw out everything they have been working on to this point and take an exact opposite approach to how we play in the space of a couple of days.


To get any result against the French we are absolutely going to have to work our balls off, but there's nothing to say we can't try keep hold of the ball a bit and not just lump it forward every time. Especially when we don't have a big target man striker like Charlton had in Quinn or Cascarino.... oh and let's not forget that Jack's style of football even stopped working as effectively after 92 when the back pass rule was implemented and his players couldn't get a breather.


Nesta did a great post on another thread about what we are doing as a footballing nation throughout all levels. I'd rather we continue that than revert back to kick and rush that doesn't even work anymore. I can't imagine anything worse than to sit back and continue to give possession to a team with Mbappe.

The comment was in reference to the France game plan (though I agree it's loose). Playing the world's second-best team at their own game would be ludicrous. Nevertheless, I believe we can get a draw, albeit an ugly one, but trying to out-France France would be downright naive. Given the choice - and Kenny's diminished credibility - most fans would prefer such a point rather than a pretty 4-0 defeat. Kenny would too and it would be to his credit.

[Razors left peg]

All bull**** from certain posters aside, that is the real difficulty tomorrow. The only thing worse than giving Mbappe easy possession is giving him loads of space to exploit. You don’t want to need a Dunne v Russia performance (they come about about once a decade) but at the same time nine times out of ten when you overcommit and come out of your shell, that’s when you’re most vulnerable to the pace and skill of Mbappe, Coman, Muani etc.

Thinking of the premier league, brighton are the only ‘small team’ prepared to go head to head with the big boys, everyone else just stays in a shell for 70 mins, tries to break or get something from a set piece and stay in the game long enough to cause a late upset.

In Ireland’s case - I hope we outwork them, I hope the crowd is lively and plays in our favour (ala Germany and Shane Long). I hope every young player involved has the game of their careers. I hope it’s a blend - you’re never gonna be able to outplay France for 90 mins but, if the footballers play, you can create a handful of chances - which you need to take. Combine that with resolute defending and maybe we have a chance. Ferguson can play. Obafemi’s pace can cause anyone problems (same with Ogbene and Johnstone) - hopefully there’s some creativity from the third midfielder, presumably Knight or Smallbone or McGrath.

There’s a reason we’re 10/1 but at the same time, ya gotta believe…

Agreed, there is a balance to be struck and we'll also need some luck along the way too, Kenny is due a bit of that.

Worst case scenario is a total hammering where we are dead before we start in the group. I've convinced myself at this stage we might get something. Portugal in the last group is when we played our best and we do tend to rise to the bigger teams.

I'm looking forward to it now.

[texidub]

we'll also need some luck along the way too, Kenny is due a bit of that.

In fairness, that is true. He hasn't had much luck so far... the opposite, in fact.

Who's the ref? A soft penalty or two for Ireland in each half would be fair, I think :)

[paul_oshea]

The comment was in reference to the France game plan (though I agree it's loose). Playing the world's second-best team at their own game would be ludicrous. Nevertheless, I believe we can get a draw, albeit an ugly one, but trying to out-France France would be downright naive. Given the choice - and Kenny's diminished credibility - most fans would prefer such a point rather than a pretty 4-0 defeat. Kenny would too and it would be to his credit.

You've hit the nail on the head here. Kenny would bite your hand off for that now so long as it could be portrayed as not having compromised his playing style. All fans would love a draw regardless of what happens. Some might might (secretly) try and convince themselves otherwise but we'd all take that with any style of play.

[texidub]

but we'd all take that with any style of play.

Agreed. I'd argue that in almost any era since the 80s, regardless of the strength or form of the Irish squad, a draw w/ France would be considered a decent result.

[texidub]

Looked up the ref for the craic. Artur Soares from Portugal. In 92 international matches he has awarded 18 penos to home sides and 7 to away sides.

He is more likely to give fouls against the home team though and home team players are TWICE as likely to get a red card as the away team. https://worldreferee.com/referee/artur_soares_dias/

[pineapple stu]

I don't know if those stats really mean anything tbh. Were the decisions correct? If so, then no point worrying about them. There's a higher chance than usual of a red card for us this evening just because we're playing a much better team who can move us around a lot more than, say, Latvia.

[texidub]

Not worried... just thinking about different angles in the pre-match build-up. :) They don't mean much... but they mean something inasmuch as they indicate that he's a bit harder on home teams. Only indication I would take from it really is for Molumby (and others) to keep their heads on straight with this ref in charge.

[pineapple stu]

but they mean something inasmuch as they indicate that he's a bit harder on home teams.
It doesn't though. If all those decisions are correct, then it just means home teams deserved more red cards in games he was reffing. He could be perfectly fair and still send off no away players.

[Snapshot]

Not worried... just thinking about different angles in the pre-match build-up. :) They don't mean much... but they mean something inasmuch as they indicate that he's a bit harder on home teams. Only indication I would take from it really is for Molumby (and others) to keep their heads on straight with this ref in charge.
It's definitely a worry that Molumby will dive in and be sent off. Tenacious is good but reckless is stupid. His game accommodates both.

[texidub]

That's a big if, but I take your point. Refs do sometimes get it right.

[tetsujin1979]

Especially when we don't have a big target man striker like Charlton had in Quinn or Cascarino.... oh and let's not forget that Jack's style of football even stopped working as effectively after 92 when the back pass rule was implemented and his players couldn't get a breather

There was a bit more to it than that, the team was aging and he hadn't introduced new players to replace the old guard. The team that faced the Dutch in the play off had an average age of 29, including McGrath at 36 and Aldridge at 37 facing the bulk of the team that had won the Champions League with Ajax seven months earlier

[pineapple stu]

It's definitely a worry that Molumby will dive in and be sent off. Tenacious is good but reckless is stupid. His game accommodates both.
Nothing new there unfortunately. He turned the game against Armenia when he had to be subbed off before being sent off. Hourihane came on and was one of those badly at fault for the opening goal, if not both goals (an aimless cross into the box where we had no-one waiting, and Armenia went up the pitch and scored)

Didn't something similar happen in a friendly, where he was subbed off before being sent off too?

If he can get that out of his game he could be a big player for us, but I don't know if he's managed that yet.