Stephen Kenny

[Paddy Garcia]

I remember being at Wembley September 1976 - Giles was player manager and we drew 1-1; for me that was like when we beat USSR 3-0 in 1973 another brilliant performance by a Giles managed team and he was light years ahead of Kenny when it came to management ( all based on a style of ball retention rather than lashing it up the pitch , which at the time wasn’t appreciated).

May not of been a Messiah ( albeit would of except for corrupt decisions mentioned previously) , so in my book I’d rate him as best manager since Tuohy was installed as our first manager back in the early 1970s…… and I’d rate Kenny as our worst ( he pips Staunton).

My first international - wonderful performance. I recall Highway terrorised them down the wing.

[JR89]

Wonder would he consider coaching roles rather than management. Not sure what his family situation is like (young kids), but outside of a LOI managers job I doubt he'll get another managers job.

[third policeman]

I remember being at Wembley September 1976 - Giles was player manager and we drew 1-1; for me that was like when we beat USSR 3-0 in 1973 another brilliant performance by a Giles managed team and he was light years ahead of Kenny when it came to management ( all based on a style of ball retention rather than lashing it up the pitch , which at the time wasn’t appreciated).

May not of been a Messiah ( albeit would of except for corrupt decisions mentioned previously) , so in my book I’d rate him as best manager since Tuohy was installed as our first manager back in the early 1970s…… and I’d rate Kenny as our worst ( he pips Staunton).

Remember that game as well. He played the team that should have been our preferred starting 11 with Brady, himself and Gerry Daly in midfield, with Heighway, Conroy and Givens up front. Played England off the park. For whatever reason he generally preferred Mick Martin to Daly and Treacy to Conroy around that time. Two functional players generally got the nod ahead of two footballers, which may be a bit of an insight into Giles' pragmatic instincts.

[ontheotherhand]

Derry far more likely than Dundalk I’d say,more finances available up there….


That's where I see him going as well but it probably depends on what happens next season. If Higgins has them top of the league early on then they won't sack him and I'm not sure I see it happening in the off season. I did think they might at one point but they seem to like Higgins up there and the league will be there for them next year. That said, if Higgins is struggling after the first series of games and Kenny is available......

Kenny has strengths that we can hopefully utilize but I'm not sure where. I doubt the FAI will want to keep him on in any role. But who knows what they might do.

He seems a decent skin anyway so I hope he takes some time off and finds a role that's less in the spotlight at some point (just not at Rovers....). This must have been tough on him and his family.

Of course he isn't even gone yet!

[Razors left peg]

If he had any love for the national team/country he'd walk. He can't fail to see he is destroying the team.

At this point he knows he'll never see a paycheck as big as what hes getting again so he has to keep earning!

[CSAD]

At this point he knows he'll never see a paycheck as big as what hes getting again so he has to keep earning!


I don't what logic there is in him staying until next month, he know's there is no chance he's getting a new deal and odds are the play off possibility will be off the table after tonight. Surely it would be better from his perspective to leave on his own terms rather than just being kicked like he will be after next months games?

[CSAD]

That's where I see him going as well but it probably depends on what happens next season. If Higgins has them top of the league early on then they won't sack him and I'm not sure I see it happening in the off season. I did think they might at one point but they seem to like Higgins up there and the league will be there for them next year. That said, if Higgins is struggling after the first series of games and Kenny is available......

Kenny has strengths that we can hopefully utilize but I'm not sure where. I doubt the FAI will want to keep him on in any role. But who knows what they might do.

He seems a decent skin anyway so I hope he takes some time off and finds a role that's less in the spotlight at some point (just not at Rovers....). This must have been tough on him and his family.

Of course he isn't even gone yet!

The thing is I actually would like for him to have a role in the FAI to some degree, just not has the Irish coach.

[Jolly Red Giant]

The problem with your analysis is that you're only looking at tournament winners. It was a far more even period for sure, so you did have winners from a wider range of countries. But the advantage of the coefficient is that it shows a wider range of performances, and in that regard it shows the English league as a whole had more strength in depth.

Your coefficients are utter boll*cks - Wales - with one team that never got beyond the third round of any tournament (3 first rounds and out, and a second round and out) is ranked higher than Spain with 5 teams (including Athletico in the European Cup Final and Real Madrid in the Cup Winners Cup Final) - and 7 places higher than Greece that had 4 teams including Panathinaikos who got to the European Cup Final.


It certainly wasn't the case that every player in the world had an ambition to play in it like the Premier League - though no-one's claiming that - but to play in it was to play in the top league in European football at the time. Ajax and Bayern were great teams, but the English top flight was the best league.
The nature of club contracts pre-Bosman largely prohibited players moving clubs unless the clubs wanted them out. Up to Bosman players were treated like bonded labour.

But if England were the top league then how come they spectacularly failed to break the Dutch and then German dominance of European football until the great Liverpool team of the late 1970s? and how come English team failed to qualify of tournaments throughout the 1970s?


England's non-qualification in that time was remarkable even at the time - in 1978 they won five of their six games but lost to Italy on goal difference, when only one team qualified. 1974 they battered Poland but Tomaszewski wrote himself into the record books. In 1976 they were second behind the eventual champions. These things could happen when only one team qualified; they were still one of the top teams in the world at this time. Barely outside the top ten in the world throughout that period in fact (https://eloratings.net/England), and mostly in the top five.

Oh - rubbish - 'things could happen when only one team qualified' - well they happened over and over again. You go on about them 'battering' Poland - yet the dye was cast way earlier - when they drew at home against Wales and lost in Poland. England won one game in that qualifying group. And this is where your 'rankings' fall down - England ranked 5th won one game - Ireland, ranked 34th beat France at home and drew with them away. You go on about how unlucky England were in 1978 - Ireland were robbed of qualification but a corrupt referee and linesman (and that was after previously having a perfectly good goal from Frank Stapleton ruled out for offside against France in Paris). The French manager was at the game in Sofia and said "it was impossible to beat Bulgaria with that kind of referee, Ireland were robbed and I saw nothing wrong with Giles' goal." The breakthrough for Irish football should have happened in 1978 - and with the players at his disposal in subsequent years, Giles could have had Ireland qualifying for every tournament throughout the 1980's.

Now all of this is a bit of a sideshow - The Irish teams of the early 1970s punched way above their weight because they had a manager who knew what he was doing and how to get the best out of the players. They were disciplined, organised, they knew how to defend. Giles has famously said football is a simple game - pick your best players and get them to do what they do best. Kenny's team has just as much quality as Giles had in 1974 - but they are disorganised, they lack discipline, they can't defend and Kenny has them trying to do stuff they (at least at this moment) cannot do.

[CraftyToePoke]

Oh, this is gonna be fcukin epic. I predict a four day typing rumble at least.
Pineappler, I am picturing you doing some warm up stretches and would advise a plentiful supply of energy bars.

PM me for odds on the combatants lads, I will take bets on who has the last word here, JRG a slight favourite in the early stages.

[Razors left peg]

I don't what logic there is in him staying until next month, he know's there is no chance he's getting a new deal and odds are the play off possibility will be off the table after tonight. Surely it would be better from his perspective to leave on his own terms rather than just being kicked like he will be after next months games?

Hes not getting a new deal, and I cant remember how much hes on annually, but lets say he makes 600K per year, that would mean a months wages is $50K... for a man whos not a multimillionaire ex footballer thats a lot of money to leave behind if he resigned

[pineapple stu]

Your coefficients are utter boll*cks
UEFA's coefficients, not mine. Same ones they use today


Wales is ranked higher than Spain with 5 teams
Countries with one team will skew it; just the way averages work. Same as no-one will argue that Liechtenstein league is 38th today. No point using unusual exceptions to argue a point; stats don't work that way.



But if England were the top league then how come they spectacularly failed to break the Dutch and then German dominance of European football until the great Liverpool team of the late 1970s? and how come English team failed to qualify of tournaments throughout the 1970s?
I've already answered that. There's a difference between the strongest team (Ajax/Bayern) and the strongest league (which looks at strength in depth, which is more relevant here). And Leeds fans will tell you they were screwed by the ref in 75 European Cup final against Bayern.

I'm not arguing Giles isn't a better manager than Kenny so I'm not sure what you think you're gaining with the comparison there. What I (and others) are arguing is that the English league back then wasn't as bad as you made out. In fact, in terms of strength in depth, it was probably the strongest in Europe.

[CSAD]

Hes not getting a new deal, and I cant remember how much hes on annually, but lets say he makes 600K per year, that would mean a months wages is $50K... for a man whos not a multimillionaire ex footballer thats a lot of money to leave behind if he resigned

The FAI and Kenny can come to some agreement I'm sure, maybe mutual consent. I do think he cares too much to stay on just for money especially when its only 50k, him staying doesnt do him or Ireland any good so the best thing for everyone would be he moves on after tonight.

[TonyD]

I don't what logic there is in him staying until next month, he know's there is no chance he's getting a new deal and odds are the play off possibility will be off the table after tonight. Surely it would be better from his perspective to leave on his own terms rather than just being kicked like he will be after next months games?

I’d tend to agree, and I was of the “give him time” view, but it’s over now, and I sincerely doubt that he doesn’t realise that. I don’t like some of the vitriolic comments, things like saying he had any love for the team he’d walk now. That’s unwarranted in my view. He clearly cares deeply, and was visibly devastated after the Dutch game . I really wanted him to succeed, but ultimately it just hasn’t worked. I think the main failure is that the team just has such a soft centre. As Didi Hamman said, they always find a way to lose. Will be interesting to see if the new manager can address that.

[CSAD]

I’d tend to agree, and I was of the “give him time” view, but it’s over now, and I sincerely doubt that he doesn’t realise that. I don’t like some of the vitriolic comments, things like saying he had any love for the team he’d walk now. That’s unwarranted in my view. He clearly cares deeply, and was visibly devastated after the Dutch game . I really wanted him to succeed, but ultimately it just hasn’t worked. I think the main failure is that the team just has such a soft centre. As Didi Hamman said, they always find a way to lose. Will be interesting to see if the new manager can address that.

I was aswell and I'm both sad for my ego as ive been proven wrong but also for Kenny as I really liked what he was trying to do but sadly it just wasnt meant to be unfortunately. I do think he cares deeply and that's why I dont want to stick the boot in on him but at some point we have to draw the line and I felt the Dutch game was that line, I also believe because he cares so deeply that if Ireland's chances are done tonight he will walk as I think he cares too much about this team to string them along next month just for a pay out.

That's my main issue and why I wanted change, while we may be easier on the eye we have lost our toughness as a result which to be was the best characteristics of this side. I would like a manager that finds a balance between playing good football, not neccessarily tiki taka stuff but just something that doesnt put be to sleep, and being tough which I feel is definetly possible with the right man. Who is that man, well that's the question and the sooner we start looking the sooner we'll have our answer.

[Razors left peg]

I’d tend to agree, and I was of the “give him time” view, but it’s over now, and I sincerely doubt that he doesn’t realise that. I don’t like some of the vitriolic comments, things like saying he had any love for the team he’d walk now. That’s unwarranted in my view. He clearly cares deeply, and was visibly devastated after the Dutch game . I really wanted him to succeed, but ultimately it just hasn’t worked. I think the main failure is that the team just has such a soft centre. As Didi Hamman said, they always find a way to lose. Will be interesting to see if the new manager can address that.

Im with you Tony, I gave him longer than I probably would other because I thought he had a huge job to change the age profile of the team, but unfortunately he just wasnt up to taking it further and in the end I think he lost his bottle with younger players tbh.

I still the bones of a decent side are there, especially with a few more additions from current u21s. Next manager is vital to be able to build a team around Ferguson and get the best out of him I believe.

[Colbert Report]

The FAI and Kenny can come to some agreement I'm sure, maybe mutual consent. I do think he cares too much to stay on just for money especially when its only 50k, him staying doesnt do him or Ireland any good so the best thing for everyone would be he moves on after tonight.

Kenny will be lucky to make fifty grand a season in football management. He's headed straight back to the LoI and will likely never get a gig elsewhere. Fifty grand is huge money to him. He's entitled to it, and the FAI are in no position to pay him off. That's the only reason he's been allowed to stay on so long.

[seanfhear]

Kenny will be lucky to make fifty grand a season in football management. He's headed straight back to the LoI and will likely never get a gig elsewhere. Fifty grand is huge money to him. He's entitled to it, and the FAI are in no position to pay him off. That's the only reason he's been allowed to stay on so long.
Sure that was small change when the Celtic Tiger roared ! ! !

[osarusan]

How absurd is it that a team in Ireland's form are still in with a chance of a playoff.

[Jolly Red Giant]

UEFA's coefficients, not mine. Same ones they use today
And they are still boll*cks



Countries with one team will skew it; just the way averages work. Same as no-one will argue that Liechtenstein league is 38th today. No point using unusual exceptions to argue a point; stats don't work that way.
And clearly if one team can skew the results then the results are useless - stats don't work that way.



I've already answered that. There's a difference between the strongest team (Ajax/Bayern) and the strongest league (which looks at strength in depth, which is more relevant here). And Leeds fans will tell you they were screwed by the ref in 75 European Cup final against Bayern.
Yes - Leeds were screwed over in the 75 final - but that still does not negate the fact that the Dutch and Germans (well about 2/3 of the Germans) dominated European football in the early 1970s. Remember Holland is country that had a population of 13million in 1970 - England's population was more than four times that.

And by the way - I didn't argue that the English League was not a strong league - I argued that it was not the dominant league that it is today - to quote 'In 1974 the standard of English football wasn't anywhere close to its position in Europe now and few if any foreign players played in England' - today almost 70% of the players in the PL are foreign - and that is going to directly impact where and with which clubs Irish players play in England. Furthermore, there were only a handful of black players plying in the top division in England at the time - institutionalised racism existed in English football. The first black player to play for England was Viv Anderson in 1978.


I'm not arguing Giles isn't a better manager than Kenny so I'm not sure what you think you're gaining with the comparison there. What I (and others) are arguing is that the English league back then wasn't as bad as you made out. In fact, in terms of strength in depth, it was probably the strongest in Europe.
1. the comparison is clear - the argument being made is that we have poorer quality players than in times past - that is simply not true - and it demonstrates not that Kenny is not as good as Giles - but that he is absolutely atrocious as an international manager. He is the worst ever manager of the Irish team (and worse than the FAI committee who picked the teams pre-1960s) - and probably one of the worst international managers ever in European football.
2. I have demonstrated that your coefficients are boll*cks and that your arguments do not hold water when it comes to English football in the early 1970s. Now if we were arguing about the late 1970s and early 1980s it would be a different story - then you had English teams that were dominating in Europe and you had a domestic league that was of a significantly higher standard than 4-5 years earlier (including a WBA team that Giles got promoted and built to be a top 8 team in England - while he was doubling up as Irish manager - laying the foundations for Ron Atkinson who followed him as manager).

[John83]

Pineapple and Jolly, this is off topic and should be taken to PMs.

[EalingGreen]

And [the statistics] are still boll*cksBecause you say so?

I am reminded of the old Chico Marx line: "Who ya gonna believe, me or the evidence of your own eyes?"



Yes - Leeds were screwed over in the 75 final - but that still does not negate the fact that the Dutch and Germans (well about 2/3 of the Germans) dominated European football in the early 1970s. Remember Holland is country that had a population of 13million in 1970 - England's population was more than four times that.
You have consistently cited 1974 as your (continental) high water mark, so 1975 is hardly that far off. And in any case, the question is which was the strongest league back then, not which league happened to have the strongest club (Ajax, Bayern etc).

And since a string of top teams don't spontaneously emerge out of nowhere, how do you explain the Football League's run in the European Cup after Leeds i.e. 6 successive wins by 3 different teams? Someone suddenly sprinkiling magic dust around?



And by the way - I didn't argue that the English League was not a strong league - I argued that it was not the dominant league that it is today - to quote 'In 1974 the standard of English football wasn't anywhere close to its position in Europe now and few if any foreign players played in England' - today almost 70% of the players in the PL are foreign - and that is going to directly impact where and with which clubs Irish players play in England.
And how many overseas players were playing eg in the Bundesliga or the Eredvisie back then?




Furthermore, there were only a handful of black players plying in the top division in England at the time - institutionalised racism existed in English football. The first black player to play for England was Viv Anderson in 1978.
"And your point is, caller?"

For information, the first black player to represent eg West Germany was Kostedde, against Malta in 1974, and the first capped eg by Spain was da Silva in 1994.

While every single player in the two starting line-ups in the 1974 World Cup Final was white. That was the Final between (ahem) Netherlands and West Germany btw, with Ajax and Bayern well represented.

As for Viv Anderson, regardless of his international career, fact is he was also contributing directly to the strength of English club football at the time. Or was it a different Viv Anderson who won two European Cup winners medals in succeeding seasons?

We can all cherry pick one or two individual points to try to back up a particular theory, but if you ignore the bigger picture, including all the available evidence to back it up, including statistics, then your theory is liable to be misplaced.



1. the comparison is clear - the argument being made is that we have poorer quality players than in times past - that is simply not true - and it demonstrates not that Kenny is not as good as Giles - but that he is absolutely atrocious as an international manager. He is the worst ever manager of the Irish team (and worse than the FAI committee who picked the teams pre-1960s) - and probably one of the worst international managers ever in European football.
It is hardly contradictory to believe that the standard of ROI players is lower than it was in former times AND that SK is not up to international management.

This observer, who also remembers the 1970's, would agree with both.



I have demonstrated that your coefficients are boll*cks and that your arguments do not hold water when it comes to English football in the early 1970s. Now if we were arguing about the late 1970s and early 1980s it would be a different story - then you had English teams that were dominating in Europe and you had a domestic league that was of a significantly higher standard than 4-5 years earlier (including a WBA team that Giles got promoted and built to be a top 8 team in England - while he was doubling up as Irish manager - laying the foundations for Ron Atkinson who followed him as manager).Not to this poster, you haven't.

How or why can you explain how the Football League suddenly went from being mediocre in 1974 to being dominant by 1977? Did they suddenly start importing foreign players in the meantime? Or forget to be racist? Did they have another couple of Brian Cloughs that we have somehow forgotten about?

I mean, you cite racism and xenophobia as causes for the (relative) weakness of English football in the early-mid 70's, but as late as 1982, Aston Villa won the European Cup with a team managed by Tony Barton (no Rinus Michels or Helmut Schon he) and consisting of 8 Englishmen and 3 Scots, all of them white. While their opponents, Bayern, fielded 11 white German players too (though their manager was Hungarian, I'll give you that.)

EDIT: Oops! Just noticed John83's post, above. Sorry.

[OwlsFan]

I remember being at Wembley September 1976 - Giles was player manager and we drew 1-1; for me that was like when we beat USSR 3-0 in 1973 another brilliant performance by a Giles managed team and he was light years ahead of Kenny when it came to management ( all based on a style of ball retention rather than lashing it up the pitch , which at the time wasn’t appreciated).

May not of been a Messiah ( albeit would of except for corrupt decisions mentioned previously) , so in my book I’d rate him as best manager since Tuohy was installed as our first manager back in the early 1970s…… and I’d rate Kenny as our worst ( he pips Staunton).

Giles the best manager since Tuohy ? His record is:

John Giles’ Record as Irish Manager

Played Won Drew Lost
37------14-----9---14

against Charlton's

Played Won Drew Lost
94------47---30----17

They bear no comparison and Charlton was appointed only 5 years after Giles. The latter had some great players in their prime including Brady, Heighway, Stapleton and others before we talk about squad strength. Even O'Neill and Trappatoni had better records. No denying some very good results but when push came to shove, he failed. I remember a draw in Turkey in particular and that loss in Switzerland.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Giles the best manager since Tuohy ? His record is:

John Giles’ Record as Irish Manager

Played Won Drew Lost
37------14-----9---14

against Charlton's

Played Won Drew Lost
94------47---30----17

They bear no comparison and Charlton was appointed only 5 years after Giles. The latter had some great players in their prime including Brady, Heighway, Stapleton and others before we talk about squad strength. Even O'Neill and Trappatoni had better records. No denying some very good results but when push came to shove, he failed. I remember a draw in Turkey in particular and that loss in Switzerland.
Liam Touhy had the potential to be one of the best managers ever - but never got a proper opportunity by anybody - and was screwed over by the FAI - twice. He did an incredible job with Ireland with very limited resources - while also holding down a full-time job to feed his family.

As for the comparison between Giles - and Charlton, Trap and O'Neill - you are not comparing like with like. To start with, Ireland during the Giles era rarely played friendlies - they were always in the bottom pot for three and occasionally four team groups. - there were no Gibralters, San Marinos, Faroes, Lichensteins, Andorras (or any of the smaller former Soviet satellite countries or former Yugoslavia countries). The 1960s and 1970s were notorious at international level for the bigger countries to get all the referring decisions - games in Eastern Europe were always under a cloud of bribery and corruption. Under Giles Ireland could have qualified for the 1974 WC with fair refereeing - the 1976 Euros were it not for a corrupt referee in Russia - and they were absolutely, and literally, robbed of qualification for the 1978 WC because of corrupt matchday officials.

Charlton was a major success with Ireland - but was only appointed after deep splits on the FAI executive and chaos around the voting - both Giles and Liam Touhy were on the short-list with Charlton and all three got three votes each - Bob Paisley got nine votes. Liam Touhy got screwed over and was the name dropped from the second round of ballots - before eventually Charlton was appointed ahead of Paisley on a 10-8 vote. Now - I would argue that potentially - all of the other three candidates would have done as good a job - if not a better job - than Charlton. But that is in the realm of 'what ifs'. But Charton had the benefit of a powerful squad - and Charlton, Trap and O'Neill had the benefit of games against 'minnows' and a large number of friendlies. It took Giles 8 years to get to 37 games - Charlton got his 94 games in ten years - Trap got to 64 in five years - and O'Neill got to 55 in five years. Kenny has 38 games in not much over three years.

It is not a like-for-like comparison.

[Trequartista20]

Down to 58 in the latest FIFA rankings - a full 25 positions lower than when Kenny took over.

Wales, with a squad arguably no better than ours, are up to 28th place, having recently defeated Croatia.

[seanfhear]

Down to 58 in the latest FIFA rankings - a full 25 positions lower than when Kenny took over.

Wales, with a squad arguably no better than ours, are up to 28th place, having recently defeated Croatia.
Kenny has been a disaster as Irish football manager.

[Demesne Lad]

Down to 58 in the latest FIFA rankings - a full 25 positions lower than when Kenny took over.

Wales, with a squad arguably no better than ours, are up to 28th place, having recently defeated Croatia.

I looked at the Transfermarkt lists of goal-scorers in the Premier League and EFL Championship for 2022/23. I have omitted omitted underage caps and 'eligible but not yet selected' players. These figures may not be 100% accurate but they are pretty close.

Premiership goals 22/23: Wales 17, Ireland 8 (thanks to Ferguson's 6)

Championship goals 22/23: Wales 61, Ireland 71.

Can't make a valid comparison with Scotland, given the (declining) importance of the SPL, but for what it's worth: Premiership goals: 10, Championship 66

[Razors left peg]

Its Stephen Kennys birthday today. Im sure everyone on here agrees it would be the perfect time to award him the new contract he has earned in this campaign......

[SkStu]

Happy Birthday Stephen! After RLP's post, i decided to look to the stars for answers...


Scorpio (October 23 - November 21)
Scorpio is one of the most misunderstood signs of the zodiac. Because of its incredible passion and power, Scorpio is often mistaken for a fire sign. In fact, Scorpio is a water sign that derives its strength from the psychic, emotional realm. Like fellow water signs, Cancer and Pisces, Scorpio is extremely clairvoyant (hahahaaaa) and intuitive.

What makes this water sign unique is its distinctive venomous sting (think we're all feeling a bit stung alright). Like their celestial spirit animal, the scorpion, Scorpios lie in wait and strike when least expected (still waiting TBF). Life is a game of chess (more like drafts in this case) for these calculating water signs, who are constantly plotting several steps ahead (I wish) in order to orchestrate an eventual checkmate. This doesn't mean their intentions are necessarily nefarious. Scorpios simply know what they want and aren't afraid to work hard and play the long game (very long game obv) to get it.

They never show their cards and their enigmatic nature is what makes them so seductive and beguiling (LOL). Scorpio is the sign most closely associated with sex: The part of the body that Scorpio governs is the genital area. Sex isn't solely about pleasure for these sensual scorpions. They also crave the physical closeness, spiritual illumination, and emotional intimacy sex can provide. (his poor wife)

Scorpio is ruled by Pluto, the planet that governs both destruction and transformation (or destruction thru transformation in our case). On a good day, Scorpion energy is ambitious and enticing. On a bad day, however, the shadowy side of Scorpio is fueled by a relentless desire for control. Power-hungry Scorpios must remember that if controlled by their egos, they are at risk of poisoning themselves. This sign is at its best when that intrinsic intensity is applied to deep, soulful connections with friends and lovers. When they build trust with others, Scorpios demonstrate unparalleled empathy, depth, and commitment that brighten even the darkest parts of Scorpio’s magical psyche.(star signs are hard work)

Scorpio governs the genitals. I think we can all agree he's made a balls of things.

[joey B]

1727396571854131378

Confirmation of his departure,the best for everyone I think.

[CraftyToePoke]

1727396571854131378

Confirmation of his departure,the best for everyone I think.


Will I have to get a new signature underneath my posts as well now ?

[legendz]

Was the board meeting review originally supposed to be next week? With funding being withheld from the FAI, are they utilising Kenny's departure to put up a smokescreen?

[Diggs246]

The national nightmare is over!

[Razors left peg]

Kennys time has come, but Im not celebrating him leaving like I did Trap and O'Neill leaving. They had been far more successful, but they also seemed to have a massive superiority complex and gave the impression that little old Ireland were lucky to have them.

Kenny from the beginning felt like one of us. Everyone on here is passionate about Irish football, and Kenny is the same. His interviews coming into the job laid out a potentially exciting future. He railed against the previous ideas that Irish players couldnt play football and just werent good enough.

It didnt work out, but I still think the core ideas were right and I think we can have a bright future. I'm glad we are now moving on, but for me there is a sadness of how it went.

[Eirambler]

Farewell Stephen. Never before has an Irish manager made so many excuses, or had so many made on his behalf.


He railed against the previous ideas that Irish players couldnt play football and just werent good enough.


He may indeed have railed against that, but he also failed, spectacularly, to demonstrate that he was correct in doing so.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Long past time it has to be said. I turned against Kenny big time after Luxembourg, but the quality of play and lack of goals before then had seriously damaged his reputation. The lowest point for me was Greece away. That was a game we went into full of seemingly high morale, special training camp beforehand, confident of getting a result, and they were so thoroughly outplayed in every section of the field it will be interesting to see in accounts of the future if anyone in the FAI considered the chop then.

It astonishes me he was given as much time, leeway and sympathetic treatment from large swaths of the media that he did in the period since it started to go wrong. It was a never-ending tide of "green shoots", "silver linings", "performance was good, the results will come", and it never got any better. The RTE Sport article this morning literally has "green shoots" in the title still! Ireland were being humiliated at home by the likes of Armenia and pundits were suggesting some slight tweaks in midfield, it was like I was on a drug trip watching it. Any benefit from capping young players is completely negated by the seeding/ranking slippage that Kenny oversaw, and the style of football he attempted to introduce didn't work. The players gave up this year, no matter what some of them are saying publically.

A few sliding doors moments played a big factor, like the shoot-out loss or not holding on for that win in Portugal. But the thing that annoyed me the most was how the goalposts kept being moved. It was "working for the next campaign" until we got to that campaign, botched the opening few games, then back to "working for the next campaign", then an awful draw because our seeding was so dreadful, then "working for the next campaign" again. We started Nations League seasons insisting we were looking to top groups, and by the end if them Kenny's tenure was safe if he could just win his last game, even if it was against the likes of Luxembourg. His tenure has been disastrous, and will take years to recover from. I genuinely struggle to find sympathy for the man: his incompetence was so nakedly apparent by the end, I can't help but think he should have done the responsible thing and resigned long before. The LOI beckons whenever an appropriate vacancy pops up: I genuinely don't think anyone else would have him.

[Diggs246]

Long past time it has to be said. I turned against Kenny big time after Luxembourg, but the quality of play and lack of goals before then had seriously damaged his reputation. The lowest point for me was Greece away. That was a game we went into full of seemingly high morale, special training camp beforehand, confident of getting a result, and they were so thoroughly outplayed in every section of the field it will be interesting to see in accounts of the future if anyone in the FAI considered the chop then.

It astonishes me he was given as much time, leeway and sympathetic treatment from large swaths of the media that he did in the period since it started to go wrong. It was a never-ending tide of "green shoots", "silver linings", "performance was good, the results will come", and it never got any better. The RTE Sport article this morning literally has "green shoots" in the title still! Ireland were being humiliated at home by the likes of Armenia and pundits were suggesting some slight tweaks in midfield, it was like I was on a drug trip watching it. Any benefit from capping young players is completely negated by the seeding/ranking slippage that Kenny oversaw, and the style of football he attempted to introduce didn't work. The players gave up this year, no matter what some of them are saying publically.

A few sliding doors moments played a big factor, like the shoot-out loss or not holding on for that win in Portugal. But the thing that annoyed me the most was how the goalposts kept being moved. It was "working for the next campaign" until we got to that campaign, botched the opening few games, then back to "working for the next campaign", then an awful draw because our seeding was so dreadful, then "working for the next campaign" again. We started Nations League seasons insisting we were looking to top groups, and by the end if them Kenny's tenure was safe if he could just win his last game, even if it was against the likes of Luxembourg. His tenure has been disastrous, and will take years to recover from. I genuinely struggle to find sympathy for the man: his incompetence was so nakedly apparent by the end, I can't help but think he should have done the responsible thing and resigned long before. The LOI beckons whenever an appropriate vacancy pops up: I genuinely don't think anyone else would have him.

You're too kind

[LurcherLover]

You're too kindAnd completely factual & correct.

[Diggs246]

Absolutely. It was a good post

[youngirish]

We have witnessed the reign of the poorest Ireland manager by far in living memory. Mick Meagan had a similarly shocking record results wise but he had far fewer games and the quality of the opposition he played back then was generally of a much higher standard. Staunton for all his faults got better results against superior opposition. Good riddance to Kenny. He was out of his depth from day one, took far more money than he deserved and clung on for dear life at the end incessantly splurting out excuse after excuse to justify his failings.

I also don't buy the excuse about the quality of the players. Whilst there are no world beaters (though Ferguson could become one) there are a number of decent Premiership quality players for selection together with some of the better Championship players. Outside the top 6 or 7 teams in Europe its become commonplace to see Championship players in the starting line ups. You would be expecting the next manager to get significantly better results with the same group of players, however due to the damage caused under Kenny's tenure it'll be a long time before we are back in the big time.

[pineapple stu]

Whilst there are no world beaters (though Ferguson could become one) there are a number of decent Premiership quality players together with some of the better Championship players.
Are there?

There's Ferguson obviously. There's Collins, who blows hot and cold for an average team, but we'll count him as decent. There's Kelleher, Omobamidele, Obafemi and Doherty, who don't play. There's Ogbene, Coleman, Egan, Cullen and O'Shea who are already cut adrift at the bottom and who can hardly be called "decent Premiership quality players". And I think that's it.

Whoscored (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/9622/Stages/22080/PlayerStatistics/England-Championship-2023-2024) gives match ratings for all the Championship games, and it has eight Irish players in its top 125 players (with nine games or more). Sammie Szmodmics (#16) and Finn Azaz (29) are uncapped. Alan Browne is #21. Luke McNally (33), Mark McGuinness (37) and Kevin Long (73) aren't in the national squad (kept out by Scales, Collins, O'Shea, Egan). And there's Will Smallbone (94) and Mark Sykes (120), and again I think that's it.

Technically I suppose that does mean we have "some of the better Championship players", and match ratings (like anything else I guess) are an inexact science. But in reality we have to acknowledge there's an awful lot of bog-average to poor Championship players in our squad. There's more Irish players (and more caps) in the bottom 100 - Springett, Hogan, Kelly, Armstrong, Molumby, Christie, Emakhu, Brady, Bazunu, Connolly, Robinson.

That said, I do think we can do better than we have been doing the last three years.

[zero]

Are there?

There's Ferguson obviously. There's Collins, who blows hot and cold for an average team, but we'll count him as decent. There's Kelleher, Omobamidele, Obafemi and Doherty, who don't play. There's Ogbene, Coleman, Egan, Cullen and O'Shea who are already cut adrift at the bottom and who can hardly be called "decent Premiership quality players". And I think that's it.

Whoscored (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/9622/Stages/22080/PlayerStatistics/England-Championship-2023-2024) gives match ratings for all the Championship games, and it has eight Irish players in its top 125 players (with nine games or more). Sammie Szmodmics (#16) and Finn Azaz (29) are uncapped. Alan Browne is #21. Luke McNally (33), Mark McGuinness (37) and Kevin Long (73) aren't in the national squad (kept out by Scales, Collins, O'Shea, Egan). And there's Will Smallbone (94) and Mark Sykes (120), and again I think that's it.

Technically I suppose that does mean we have "some of the better Championship players", and match ratings (like anything else I guess) are an inexact science. But in reality we have to acknowledge there's an awful lot of bog-average to poor Championship players in our squad. There's more Irish players (and more caps) in the bottom 100 - Springett, Hogan, Kelly, Armstrong, Molumby, Christie, Emakhu, Brady, Bazunu, Connolly, Robinson.

That said, I do think we can do better than we have been doing the last three years.

My feeling is the squad is around the same quality as Mick had to work with. Here's the lineup vs Denmark in the 1-1:

Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens, Whelan, Browne, Hendrick, Hourihane, McClean, McGoldrick

You could argue Doherty and possibly Duffy were in better form then, but the rest I am not sure about. Cullen plays the Whelan role, you could argue that's a downgrade but Whelan was 35 or 36 at this stage. I'd rather Knight and Molumby over Hendrick and Hourihane, and Bazunu and Ferguson just ahead of Randolph and McG. Plus Chieo in the form he is in would make the above side. Anyway, you could argue individual merits but overall the standard is roughly similar on average, in my opinion.

[JR89]

That was a game we went into full of seemingly high morale, special training camp beforehand, confident of getting a result, and they were so thoroughly outplayed in every section of the field it will be interesting to see in accounts of the future if anyone in the FAI considered the chop then.

Somewhat sure there was some talk that the people in the FAI were all for it but Canham and Hill talked them around doing it in June because of the women's team preparing for the WC. Then again it might have been Gavin Cummiskey that talked about it and he was the one that was also saying the FAI were gonna move Kenny on after Septembers games.

[pineapple stu]

My feeling is the squad is around the same quality as Mick had to work with. Here's the lineup vs Denmark in the 1-1:

Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens, Whelan, Browne, Hendrick, Hourihane, McClean, McGoldrick

You could argue Doherty and possibly Duffy were in better form then, but the rest I am not sure about. Cullen plays the Whelan role, you could argue that's a downgrade but Whelan was 35 or 36 at this stage. I'd rather Knight and Molumby over Hendrick and Hourihane, and Bazunu and Ferguson just ahead of Randolph and McG. Plus Chieo in the form he is in would make the above side. Anyway, you could argue individual merits but overall the standard is roughly similar on average, in my opinion.

I don't know - I think midfield is our weakest area at the moment so I'm not sure you could have the three current midfielders in there, even allowing for current coaching/setup/not playing to our strengths.

I'd have 2019 Hendrick (a solid Premier player; played in Europe with Burnley the previous season) over any of the current three. Cullen over Whelan I think because (as you say) Whelan was 35 and moving down the leagues. Molumby/Knight v Hourihane - bit meh on all of them. Call it a draw overall? 1½-1½ each?

2019 was much better at full/wing-back but 2023 is much better in the main striker. 2019 shades keeper and centre-half for me, but 2023 shades the supporting attacker roles. 2019 had experience but no youth; 2023 has youth but no experience. Both bad, but 2023 is easier to fix at least.

I think we're still slightly weaker than 2019, even with Ferguson being the biggest difference between the two sides - but that's not hugely different to what you're saying in the end of the day.

I do think though there's too many of the younger players who've not kicked on in the last three years and that needs to change. Parrott is the obvious one - and maybe Armstrong/Moran/Azaz/Szmodmics whoever will just take his place in the squad in the next year or two. But there's lots of others - Knight, Molumby, Idah, Omobamidele, Cullen, Obafemi, even Bazunu/Kelleher - who aren't where we might have thought they'd be three years ago. I don't really know why there's so many. Could also add Joe Hodge or Conor Coventry, as blasts from the past. I'm not sure what a new manager can do about that. If the players can kick on at club level, then we could be doing alright in a couple of years.

But I would still expect us to be doing better - we should at the very least be putting it up to Greece...

[Insidetherock]

Long past time it has to be said. I turned against Kenny big time after Luxembourg, but the quality of play and lack of goals before then had seriously damaged his reputation. The lowest point for me was Greece away. That was a game we went into full of seemingly high morale, special training camp beforehand, confident of getting a result, and they were so thoroughly outplayed in every section of the field it will be interesting to see in accounts of the future if anyone in the FAI considered the chop then.

It astonishes me he was given as much time, leeway and sympathetic treatment from large swaths of the media that he did in the period since it started to go wrong. It was a never-ending tide of "green shoots", "silver linings", "performance was good, the results will come", and it never got any better. The RTE Sport article this morning literally has "green shoots" in the title still! Ireland were being humiliated at home by the likes of Armenia and pundits were suggesting some slight tweaks in midfield, it was like I was on a drug trip watching it. Any benefit from capping young players is completely negated by the seeding/ranking slippage that Kenny oversaw, and the style of football he attempted to introduce didn't work. The players gave up this year, no matter what some of them are saying publically.

A few sliding doors moments played a big factor, like the shoot-out loss or not holding on for that win in Portugal. But the thing that annoyed me the most was how the goalposts kept being moved. It was "working for the next campaign" until we got to that campaign, botched the opening few games, then back to "working for the next campaign", then an awful draw because our seeding was so dreadful, then "working for the next campaign" again. We started Nations League seasons insisting we were looking to top groups, and by the end if them Kenny's tenure was safe if he could just win his last game, even if it was against the likes of Luxembourg. His tenure has been disastrous, and will take years to recover from. I genuinely struggle to find sympathy for the man: his incompetence was so nakedly apparent by the end, I can't help but think he should have done the responsible thing and resigned long before. The LOI beckons whenever an appropriate vacancy pops up: I genuinely don't think anyone else would have him.

The whole seeding thing is over blown, and anyone who thinks otherwise, doesn't understand how seeding works.

Seeding is now done on Nations League ranking

The first 16 in the A path, take up 10 Pot 1, 6 Pot 2 places...

The 4 winners of the B path, take up the last 4 Pot 2 places...

So, unless we won our Path B group.. which is 3rd seeds going in, would have meant way out performing our ranking.. our seeding got no better or no worse.

We however were unbelievably unlucky with the draw

Holland were actually the top ranked Pot 1 team

France were the best team in Pot 2

Greece were the second best team in Pot 4

[youngirish]

Are there?

There's Ferguson obviously. There's Collins, who blows hot and cold for an average team, but we'll count him as decent. There's Kelleher, Omobamidele, Obafemi and Doherty, who don't play. There's Ogbene, Coleman, Egan, Cullen and O'Shea who are already cut adrift at the bottom and who can hardly be called "decent Premiership quality players". And I think that's it.

Whoscored (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/9622/Stages/22080/PlayerStatistics/England-Championship-2023-2024) gives match ratings for all the Championship games, and it has eight Irish players in its top 125 players (with nine games or more). Sammie Szmodmics (#16) and Finn Azaz (29) are uncapped. Alan Browne is #21. Luke McNally (33), Mark McGuinness (37) and Kevin Long (73) aren't in the national squad (kept out by Scales, Collins, O'Shea, Egan). And there's Will Smallbone (94) and Mark Sykes (120), and again I think that's it.

Technically I suppose that does mean we have "some of the better Championship players", and match ratings (like anything else I guess) are an inexact science. But in reality we have to acknowledge there's an awful lot of bog-average to poor Championship players in our squad. There's more Irish players (and more caps) in the bottom 100 - Springett, Hogan, Kelly, Armstrong, Molumby, Christie, Emakhu, Brady, Bazunu, Connolly, Robinson.

That said, I do think we can do better than we have been doing the last three years.

That's fair enough and maybe we are worse off than suggested but I would argue that McCarthy had poorer players overall with an aging Whelan, Hourihane, McGoldrick (who was decent but no Ferguson), Maguire, McClean, Stevens and Richard Keogh all regularly making appearances for him. All in reality were only Championship level at best.

[Eirambler]

Isn't World Cup qualification seeding done based on the FIFA world rankings? Where we've absolutely tanked under Stephen Kenny?

[JR89]

This months rankings haven't been updated yet but as of last month we're ranked 28th amongst the UEFA teams. Now that the qualifiers will be 12 groups we gotta be outside the top 36 to drop to 4th seeds.

Not sure when the draw is done but a good NLs could see us get into the top 24 and second seeds.

[JR89]

Just to add when Kenny took over we were ranked 20th amongst the UEFA teams. So we were ranked as second seeds before the NLs and think it was mentioned had we won one match in that NL campaign three years ago we'd have been second seeds for the WC qualifiers.

[Eirambler]

Given that there will be 12 groups it would be pretty appalling not to be second seeds. We really do have a bit of a mountain to climb to undo the damage that's been done on that score.

[JR89]

Given that there will be 12 groups it would be pretty appalling not to be second seeds. We really do have a bit of a mountain to climb to undo the damage that's been done on that score.

At the end of 2022 we were the 24th ranked team in UEFA.