Stephen Kenny

[Eirambler]

It occured to me earlier that we all - or nearly all - have our head in the sand re kenny, we are so desperate for him to succeed. It's only when he is bounced out that we'll realise what a mess his time in charge has been. We're kicking the can down the road as long as he is at the helm unfortunately.

I would suggest though that unless he pulls things together in short order this is his final campaign. I hope he manages it.

In fairness quite a few of us have been of that view since about the second game of the World Cup campaign.

I think in time his supporters will seek to frame his legacy around how many players he brought through, and there's merit in that to be fair. But, other than a short stint at the end of the last campaign - which may or may not have been more to do with Barry than Kenny - and the Scotland home game - which always felt like a bit of a one off derby game - it has largely been a complete mess.

[samhaydenjr]

It occured to me earlier that we all - or nearly all - have our head in the sand re kenny, we are so desperate for him to succeed. It's only when he is bounced out that we'll realise what a mess his time in charge has been. We're kicking the can down the road as long as he is at the helm unfortunately.

I would suggest though that unless he pulls things together in short order this is his final campaign. I hope he manages it.

To paraphrase Glengarry Glen Ross: "The good new is: You're Fired! The bad news is: you've one campaign to win your job back"

[tetsujin1979]

In fairness quite a few of us have been of that view since about the second game of the World Cup campaign.

I think in time his supporters will seek to frame his legacy around how many players he brought through, and there's merit in that to be fair. But, other than a short stint at the end of the last campaign - which may or may not have been more to do with Barry than Kenny - and the Scotland home game - which always felt like a bit of a one off derby game - it has largely been a complete mess.
I've been saying for a while now that the players he gave a debut to may very well be his legacy, but I'm hardly a supporter

[Eirambler]

It's true in some respects, but it's always felt to me like he brought through "his" players first and foremost. Mainly the ones he worked with and favoured at Under 21 level - O'Shea, Molumby, Knight, Parrott, Idah etc.

He was a lot slower to bring through the likes of Cullen, mostly ignoring him during the first NL campaign in favour of Arter or his absolutely off the wall notion that Hourihane could be a deep lying midfielder for us (which of course he tried again to similarly disastrous effect more recently against Armenia). Similarly McNamara as mentioned has been completely ignored despite two seasons of good form for Millwall that has brought EPL interest and most of our other right wing back options being the wrong side of 30. Also with Manning at left wing back, he's never been given a fair crack I don't think. He has also been slow to bring through Smallbone, who wasn't one of his preferred players at Under 21 level (when asked about him in a press conference once he chose to turn the conversation to another Southampton player at that time, Will Ferry, instead).

It just feels to me that, once he brought his own favourites in he shut the door a bit for others that have come along since - Evan Ferguson excepted. So, for me, any praise of his blooding of players will always be caveated by that to some extent.

[elatedscum]

It just feels to me that, once he brought his own favourites in he shut the door a bit for others that have come along since - Evan Ferguson excepted. So, for me, any praise of his blooding of players will always be caveated by that to some extent.

Andrew Omobamidele, Gavin Bazunu, Michael Obafemi and Nathan Collins say hello

[Eirambler]

I think there would have been grounds to dismiss him on the spot if he didn't bring those lads in - those four plus Ferguson are probably our five best prospects for the next 10 years!

[nigel-harps1954]

I think there would have been grounds to dismiss him on the spot if he didn't bring those lads in - those four plus Ferguson are probably our five best prospects for the next 10 years!

But it completely contradicts your previous statement.

[elatedscum]

I think there would have been grounds to dismiss him on the spot if he didn't bring those lads in - those four plus Ferguson are probably our five best prospects for the next 10 years!
i don't see the players who he hasn't called up really.


Smallbone did his cruciate as a 20 year old when he was probably on the cusp of a call up. Last season, he played 228 minutes across all comps (excluding u23s) and watching him play for ireland's 21s, he didn't really look right until June (it didn't help that Crawford played him on the right wing sometimes). Got a loan move and regular game time this summer and got his first call up in November.


Apart from him, from the 2000/2001 class, Conor Coventry is the only other person you could make a case for - but I don’t think he’s played enough until his loan move in January to be a viable contender. Certainly possible he’s called up in March and he has been called up as an injury replacement in the past.


The 2002 kids, Festy Ebosele got a call-up as a 19 year old (when he couldn’t get into Jim Crawford’s 21s team) - didn’t play but got his first call up and made the bench. Signed in Italy a few weeks later and stopped playing football.


Joe Hodge could have been called up in November, I would have called him up - I’d also probably not call him up for March, based on his lack of playing time. He’s a guy who had another incredibly serious injury and only made his first senior club appearance in October.


As for the 98/99 lads, I’d have called up McNamara by now, I’d also have used Connor Ronan (who is definitely in the list of ‘Kenny favourites from his 21s days’)


I agree that Cullen wasn’t used as quickly as he should have been - but in fairness, Harry Arter was a regular for the team that won the championship that season. If we’re going that old, there’s also the likes of Ogbene and McGrath to consider who were probably given call-ups and playing time over expectation.


So you’re talking about nitpicking a handful of players when probably close to 20 lads have been brought through

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

It went so bad for Kenny that his supporters can only point to him calling up some of our most promising players in decades as his only positive contribution.

Even McCarthy called up Parrott and Connolly and he was actually competing to qualify for a major tournament!

[tetsujin1979]

Nobody has said it's his only positive

[SkStu]

In addition to bringing through 20 or so players to the squad and team, I'll throw in the faith he shows in our players ability to play a better brand of football than we have under the last three managers as something that he should be proud of and that hopefully will endure when he goes. We have had a succession of managers tell us that we dont have the players to string more than two passes together which totally undermined our players and sucked the life out of the fan base (apart from the showing in 2016 and to be fair to MON his brand was direct but not dour). I'll never forgive Trappatoni for some of his comments and our showing in 2012 was nothing short of a disgrace. Instilling a bit of confidence in the squad and the fanbase that we actually can and should expect more is something that i think is a legacy for Kenny. Hopefully something that will be reflected in the decision that will be made about our next manager.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Nobody has said it's his only positive

I think even the hardcore Kennyites are struggling to come up with many. None that can be easily disproven anyway.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

In addition to bringing through 20 or so players to the squad and team, I'll throw in the faith he shows in our players ability to play a better brand of football than we have under the last three managers as something that he should be proud of and that hopefully will endure when he goes. We have had a succession of managers tell us that we dont have the players to string more than two passes together which totally undermined our players and sucked the life out of the fan base (apart from the showing in 2016 and to be fair to MON his brand was direct but not dour). I'll never forgive Trappatoni for some of his comments and our showing in 2012 was nothing short of a disgrace. Instilling a bit of confidence in the squad and the fanbase that we actually can and should expect more is something that i think is a legacy for Kenny. Hopefully something that will be reflected in the decision that will be made about our next manager.

2 of the regular Kenny myths here in this post. Some of the dourest, dullest performances in our history have been under Kenny, especially when he didn't have a coach doing tactics for him. Kenny has stated that we shouldn't expect to compete with teams like Serbia and Portugal, basically throwing out players under a bus to try to defend his own miserable failings. Has he ever taken any personal responsibility for the rubbish served up under his reign?

[SkStu]

I love how reasonable and balanced you are. The forum needs more of this and less of the hyperbole and antics that we get from some.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I love how reasonable and balanced you are. The forum needs more of this and less of the hyperbole and antics that we get from some.

I suppose your failure to engage with any points raised or answer any questions is to be expected at this stage.

[John83]

Mod warning: if ye can't disagree politely, disagree in private.

[SkStu]

I suppose your failure to engage with any points raised or answer any questions is to be expected at this stage.

No, its just a lesson learned from before. It is absolutely pointless and a complete waste of the internet and everyone's time.


Mod warning: if ye can't disagree politely, disagree in private.

Totally fair. I plan to leave it at the above.

[Snapshot]

In addition to bringing through 20 or so players to the squad and team, I'll throw in the faith he shows in our players ability to play a better brand of football than we have under the last three managers as something that he should be proud of and that hopefully will endure when he goes. We have had a succession of managers tell us that we dont have the players to string more than two passes together which totally undermined our players and sucked the life out of the fan base (apart from the showing in 2016 and to be fair to MON his brand was direct but not dour). I'll never forgive Trappatoni for some of his comments and our showing in 2012 was nothing short of a disgrace. Instilling a bit of confidence in the squad and the fanbase that we actually can and should expect more is something that i think is a legacy for Kenny. Hopefully something that will be reflected in the decision that will be made about our next manager.
The warm embrace of failure.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Mod warning: if ye can't disagree politely, disagree in private.

Sorry about that. I know I shouldn't have responded to a post like that. I'm just going to put that poster on ignore for everyone's benefit.

Only a month to the Latvia game with France soon after. Exciting times!!

BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!!

[tetsujin1979]

In one month, the Euro ’24 qualifiers begin for Ireland – eight games that will define Stephen Kenny’s reign
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/in-one-month-the-euro-24-qualifiers-begin-for-ireland-eight-games-that-will-define-stephen-kennys-reign-42360985.html

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Let's hope he somehow turns things around and we come close to qualification at least.

[pineapple stu]

I know it's just a newspaper headline, but these eight games won't define Kenny's regime. One way or another, there's too many games like Luxembourg (H), Azerbaijan (H), Lithuania (H), Malta (A), Armenia (H and A) to be over-ridden by the upcoming campaign.

[tetsujin1979]

"Define" might not be the right word, "decide" maybe?

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, that's better alright, although I can still see a situation where we get nine points (two wins v Gibraltar and one v Greece, and we lose the rest) and things are still up in the air.

I hope it doesn't come to that; we need to see some progress this campaign for another contract renewal.

[liamoo11]

Yeah, that's better alright, although I can still see a situation where we get nine points (two wins v Gibraltar and one v Greece, and we lose the rest) and things are still up in the air.

I hope it doesn't come to that; we need to see some progress this campaign for another contract renewal.

I think we need to qualify for him to stay I think he has used up alot of the goodwill that only qualification however it is achieved will get back. Obviously that is going to be difficult but you have to qualify at some stage to keep your job

[SkStu]

Yeah, that's better alright, although I can still see a situation where we get nine points (two wins v Gibraltar and one v Greece, and we lose the rest) and things are still up in the air.

I hope it doesn't come to that; we need to see some progress this campaign for another contract renewal.

Exactly the problem i see too with this campaign and his ongoing viability.

Something else I saw over the weekend was Graham Potter's comments after Chelsea's defeat yesterday. He talked about something of the effect that he cant keep relying on support (from the club) to keep himself in a job, basically that he has got to find a way for the team to perform to the level they're accustomed to. I thought it was admirable and, in some ways, brave but there is such a fine line between bravery and foolishness. There's an honesty to it that i think some would like to see more of from SK. While we obviously hope we wont need to, I think this is the campaign that we'd need to hear the self-reflection more resoundingly than we have to date.

[Eirambler]

Yeah, that's better alright, although I can still see a situation where we get nine points (two wins v Gibraltar and one v Greece, and we lose the rest) and things are still up in the air.

I hope it doesn't come to that; we need to see some progress this campaign for another contract renewal.

If that's all we get he'll be gone. In fact, he won't see out the eight games. The Gibraltar points are worthless, so that's basically a return of three points from a possible 18. That will definitely mean goodbye to Stephen.

[elatedscum]

I think we need to qualify for him to stay I think he has used up alot of the goodwill that only qualification however it is achieved will get back. Obviously that is going to be difficult but you have to qualify at some stage to keep your job

I think it all depends how it goes within the campaign.

Imagine we beat France and Netherlands at home, beat Greece and Gibraltar home and away. All three sides end up on 18 points and we come third on goal difference. Then, we win our playoff semi final against Sweden and get to the playoff final where we face either England or Italy and lose to them on penalties.

We don't qualify. Can't imagine many sane people would be calling for the sack in those circumstances. It does illustrate how ridiculously difficult the draw was and how near impossible the draw was. We're gonna have to get a lot of points off two of the five best teams in the world (probably 6 or 7 points in 4 games) - Northern Ireland as 5th seeds got (Denmark, Finland, Slovakia, Kazakstan, NI, San Marino). And there's probably a 50/50 chance that we face one elite team in playoffs like England, if we do make the playoffs.

Alternatively, we could lose home and away against everyone except Gibraltar and luck into a handy playoff draw where we beat Albania in the semi and Montenegro in the final. In that scenario, we'd satisfy the qualification criteria but I'd have far more doubts over Kenny and the team

[liamoo11]

I think it all depends how it goes within the campaign.

Imagine we beat France and Netherlands at home, beat Greece and Gibraltar home and away. All three sides end up on 18 points and we come third on goal difference. Then, we win our playoff semi final against Sweden and get to the playoff final where we face either England or Italy and lose to them on penalties.

We don't qualify. Can't imagine many sane people would be calling for the sack in those circumstances. It does illustrate how ridiculously difficult the draw was and how near impossible the draw was. We're gonna have to get a lot of points off two of the five best teams in the world (probably 6 or 7 points in 4 games) - Northern Ireland as 5th seeds got (Denmark, Finland, Slovakia, Kazakstan, NI, San Marino). And there's probably a 50/50 chance that we face one elite team in playoffs like England, if we do make the playoffs.

Alternatively, we could lose home and away against everyone except Gibraltar and luck into a handy playoff draw where we beat Albania in the semi and Montenegro in the final. In that scenario, we'd satisfy the qualification criteria but I'd have far more doubts over Kenny and the team

If the extreme case you outlined on.optoon A happens then I agree he will keep his job . I think though failure to qualify will require something very close to what you outlined for him to survive. His difficulty is as I said he has used up so much goodwill and has not taken advantage of reasonably winnable opposition and better prospects of qualification than awaits us now.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I think it all depends how it goes within the campaign.

Imagine we beat France and Netherlands at home, beat Greece and Gibraltar home and away. All three sides end up on 18 points and we come third on goal difference. Then, we win our playoff semi final against Sweden and get to the playoff final where we face either England or Italy and lose to them on penalties.

We don't qualify. Can't imagine many sane people would be calling for the sack in those circumstances. It does illustrate how ridiculously difficult the draw was and how near impossible the draw was. We're gonna have to get a lot of points off two of the five best teams in the world (probably 6 or 7 points in 4 games) - Northern Ireland as 5th seeds got (Denmark, Finland, Slovakia, Kazakstan, NI, San Marino). And there's probably a 50/50 chance that we face one elite team in playoffs like England, if we do make the playoffs.

Alternatively, we could lose home and away against everyone except Gibraltar and luck into a handy playoff draw where we beat Albania in the semi and Montenegro in the final. In that scenario, we'd satisfy the qualification criteria but I'd have far more doubts over Kenny and the team

Could we have got a better draw if results were better over the last two years? We mightn't even get a playoff, isn't that down to recent results also?

[SkStu]

The Pineapple Stu scenario is the middle ground option between both the scenarios in ES post. If he is trending to less than that 9 point middle ground, he doesn't get the lucky outcome that is possible in ES second option. If he is trending to it (or even slightly better than), what is the outcome? It is truly hard to say but I think it is likely that interpretation of performances in the big games are the kicker in what decision is made. I'm struggling to see a scenario along those lines where he is given more time but it is not impossible he is staying on with some mid-ground results. That all assumes he makes it past the first round of games relatively unscathed...

[paul_oshea]

Not many managers have had the opportunity of 2/3 failed campaigns and then still leading into the next one. I think he'd be very lucky to have that opportunity. But I really dont trust the current FAI board. Money people not football people.

[Razors left peg]

IF we finish 3rd, is there chance of playoffs based on Nations League? Kinda like what happened last time, where we were crap in group and nations league but still managed to get playoff against Slovakia?

[elatedscum]

Could we have got a better draw if results were better over the last two years? We mightn't even get a playoff, isn't that down to recent results also?

Yes and no... going back to NI's group - they're 5th seeds and they got that ridiculous group. The 4th seeds in that group Kazakstan are guaranteed a playoff, probably against Turkey, Greece and Georgia (unless any were to qualify directly, in which case Luxembourg would be the next team up)

So had we done worse, say got relegated instead of Bulgaria, and won the group with Georgia, Gibraltar and Macedonia, we'd possibly be in a better position re the playoffs and, as luck would have it, in the groups too. So yeah, if we'd done better or worse, we'd probably have gotten a better draw.




IF we finish 3rd, is there chance of playoffs based on Nations League? Kinda like what happened last time, where we were crap in group and nations league but still managed to get playoff against Slovakia?
Yep

[Razors left peg]

Yes and no... going back to NI's group - they're 5th seeds and they got that ridiculous group. The 4th seeds in that group Kazakstan are guaranteed a playoff, probably against Turkey, Greece and Georgia (unless any were to qualify directly, in which case Luxembourg would be the next team up)

So had we done worse, say got relegated instead of Bulgaria, and won the group with Georgia, Gibraltar and Macedonia, we'd possibly be in a better position re the playoffs and, as luck would have it, in the groups too. So yeah, if we'd done better or worse, we'd probably have gotten a better draw.




Yep

So if we are crap but qualify based on NL playoff would that be enough for him to keep his job?

[paul_oshea]

Hed still have to win 2(competitive) games in a row. Something he hasnt done so if he achieved that I think he would assuming we dont end up with only 2 wins in the other group.

Put another way if we qualified for the Nations league and didnt lose to Greece and 1 result each of France and Holland I'm sure hed be kept on. Id be happy with that too.

[elatedscum]

So if we are crap but qualify based on NL playoff would that be enough for him to keep his job?

i'd say if we are really crap, he'll probably lose his job during or at the end of the group (like only picking up the 6 points against Gibraltar). Playoffs are in March, so wouldn't be ideal for a new manager's first games to them - but if we come third, i'd be pretty confident he'd at least keep the job until March. Either way, if he qualifies us, he obviously stays for the euros at the very least.

[Razors left peg]

To be honest Im just playing Devils advocate a bit. Finishing 3rd is a minimum for him, and we have to play well in most game. If that gets us a playoff then he will get the chance to keep his job by winning that playoff.

[liamoo11]

To be honest Im just playing Devils advocate a bit. Finishing 3rd is a minimum for him, and we have to play well in most game. If that gets us a playoff then he will get the chance to keep his job by winning that playoff.

Look if he qualifies us through the playoffs he definitely keeps his job and takes us through the world Cup qualifiers . If he qualifies us through the group he gets a 4 year contract through to end of next euros campaign

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Yes and no... going back to NI's group - they're 5th seeds and they got that ridiculous group. The 4th seeds in that group Kazakstan are guaranteed a playoff, probably against Turkey, Greece and Georgia (unless any were to qualify directly, in which case Luxembourg would be the next team up)

So had we done worse, say got relegated instead of Bulgaria, and won the group with Georgia, Gibraltar and Macedonia, we'd possibly be in a better position re the playoffs and, as luck would have it, in the groups too. So yeah, if we'd done better or worse, we'd probably have gotten a better draw.




Yep

But you don't go out to do worse, we did bad enough as it was. What if we topped the group with Ukraine and Scotland? Could we have been second seeds for the Euro draw?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

IF we finish 3rd, is there chance of playoffs based on Nations League? Kinda like what happened last time, where we were crap in group and nations league but still managed to get playoff against Slovakia?

There's a chance we could get a playoff but the chances aren't great because we have dropped down the rankings.

[samhaydenjr]

There seems to be some misunderstanding about whether our performance in the main qualifiers will impact our ability to make it to the playoffs. I just want to clear that up - it almost certainly won't (more on that later) as the play-off participants will be chosen based on the Nations League rankings of the teams left after the main qualifying tournament. The results of the other groups will have more of an effect in determining our fate

We are ranked 26th, Germany qualify as hosts and Estonia, as highest ranked League D team, will be moved into the playoff path of any League that has fewer than four teams left (most likely League A). What this means is that if 20, 19, or 18 of the qualifiers from the main tournament are ranked above us in the Nations League, then we secure a play-off spot. However, if three of the qualifiers are ranked below us (say Turkey, Sweden and Romania), then we are out.

The ideal scenario would see fifteen of the qualifiers come from League A (plus Germany) and five from the League B teams ranked above us. In this case, the other four League B teams above us would form the League B path and we would be moved into the League A path with Estonia, Albania and Montenegro. Alternative scenarios would include us remaining in the League B path with three higher-ranked League B teams or being forced to face two League A teams and Estonia.

Now I did say that our performances in the main qualifying group would almost certainly have no impact. But there is a potential scenario which could have a very interesting effect. If we don't qualify from the group and Greece do, then they become one of the three lower-ranked qualifiers who could block our way to the play-offs. This could create a rather perverse incentive for us. Imagine that Greece shock the Netherlands (who have been below par all tournament) in October to pull three points clear of them, with a final game at home to France, who have already qualified. The Netherlands might need to win both of their final games to prevent Greece from qualifying in second place. Their second-last game is against... guess who? It would actually help us to lose that game, possibly by a lot. So... do we take the chance to give a bunch of debuts to U17 players? Do we stick Obafemi in goal? Or will we be naturally bad enough to achieve this important defeat?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Good stuff Sam, well explained and could be an interesting twist. You know your stuff so can you tell me if we had topped the Nation's League group with Ukraine and Scotland, could we have been second seeds for the Euro 2024 draw? I read some newspaper articles from around that time stating we could but I haven't seen it confirmed.

[pineapple stu]

Well you can't top a group with two other teams.

But Scotland are second seeds so yep, had we won our group outright we'd have been second seeds.

[Eirambler]

Yes, the four Group B winners and the best ranked second placed team were all second seeds in the draw. We missed a massive opportunity there.

Our current problems were basically created in one international window a year ago. Kenny made a complete hames of the Armenia away/Ukraine (second team) at home fixtures. It should have been 6 points, it ended up being zero. His team setup in those games was awful and put us in the mess we're in now in terms of qualification for the Euros. He's paying the price for his errors in this campaign. Unfortunately, so are the rest of us.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Yes, the four Group B winners and the best ranked second placed team were all second seeds in the draw. We missed a massive opportunity there.

Our current problems were basically created in one international window a year ago. Kenny made a complete hames of the Armenia away/Ukraine (second team) at home fixtures. It should have been 6 points, it ended up being zero. His team setup in those games was awful and put us in the mess we're in now in terms of qualification for the Euros. He's paying the price for his errors in this campaign. Unfortunately, so are the rest of us.

So the position we're in was self inflicted then. No real point talking about an unlucky draw when our awful performances have put us in this position. We now have to come ahead of either France or Holland or hope other teams do us a favour to even have a play off to get to the Euros. Why is this manager still in a job again?

[elatedscum]

It is worth noting that Ukraine have Mudryk who Chelsea just bought for £95m, Zabarnyi who Bournemouth just bought for £24m as a 20 year old, Zinchenko who cost Arsenal £30m and Mykolenko who was a steal for Everton at £17m. They also have Lunin, Yarmalenko, Stepanenko, Shaparenko - all quality. There’s not many Irish players that would get into their team and there’s not a god given right to finish above them.

[Eirambler]

Yes, but when we played them at home they were in the early stages of the war, they had just come off a World Cup playoff loss to Scotland and picked a far from full strength team for the Dublin game. They were basically saying to us that night - on you go lads, this game isn't a priority for us, we'll give you it. And we lost to them anyway.

[elatedscum]

it still had Mudryk, Mykolenko, Sharapenko and Lunin - it was a weird night.

I genuinely think the FAI giving 2000 tickets to the ukraine fans, plus the other however many thousand ukraine fans were in the stadium really changed things (i know my section was about 50/50 irish ukraine - and that wasn't the block where they gave 2000 tickets). It genuinely felt like an away game. There was so much positivity towards Ukraine - the ukraine fans were louder, screaming and chanting the whole way through and we were just dead - there was absolutely no atmosphere from us.

[Diggs246]

it still had Mudryk, Mykolenko, Sharapenko and Lunin - it was a weird night.

I genuinely think the FAI giving 2000 tickets to the ukraine fans, plus the other however many thousand ukraine fans were in the stadium really changed things (i know my section was about 50/50 irish ukraine - and that wasn't the block where they gave 2000 tickets). It genuinely felt like an away game. There was so much positivity towards Ukraine - the ukraine fans were louder, screaming and chanting the whole way through and we were just dead - there was absolutely no atmosphere from us.

Would it not be fair to say the atmosphere from us was dire, because our team was dire.

Unfortunately under Stephen poor performances isn't weird