James McClean M Wrexham b.1989

[gastric]

I wish he had worn a poppy after all of this!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except there are numerous other countries who've suffered at the hands of the British state.
What about their sensitivities?

And Armistice Day should be about all who died. Not about the detached notion of any individual "Nation's Fallen"...

[Not Brazil]

Except there are numerous other countries who've suffered at the hands of the British state.
What about their sensitivities?


Many have suffered at the hands of the British State. And the British State has suffered at the hands of many others too.

Those of us within the United Kingdom are perfectly at liberty to show our respect to The Fallen - Clubs/Players should be free, within the United Kingdom, to show their respects for the sacrifices made on behalf of the Nation if they so wish. They should also be free not to join in if they don't want too.

[tricky_colour]

I think the best way to honour the memory of soldiers past would be to stop voting in governments that will enthusiastically send future generations out to war. But that's just me :)

Not easy to do when all the available options offer basically more of the status quo.

[jinxy lilywhite]

last night when i read the news i felt that James made the wrong decision to do this. afterall he lives there and makes a living for doing something that he truely loves and thats playing football. But after seeing the reaction from some ill informed people I really admire his stance in this, sorry his decision not to wear one. You have to admire him for doing so. it wasnt easy for him to do so and we live in a democracy where people are allowed to do so.
ideas of everyone wearing a poppy on their shirt, reminds me of a regime that had people wearing red bangages on their sleeves with a white circle and a black swastica, who know maybe they'll get james to wear a gold star of david for his remaining matches

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair enough NB. The latter part makes sense. But Armistice Day, as in November 11, should be about remembering all the dead from mainly pointless wars.

My only quibble would be that far more people have suffered at the hands of Britain than they or their citizens ever have.

[Not Brazil]

My only quibble would be that far more people have suffered at the hands of Britain than they or their citizens ever have.

Not sure of the maths of that one AB, but through the sacrifices made by our Armied Forces, we did help to win two World Wars against evil - The Fallen in WW1 included circa 35,000 from this island alone. I salute them, and am indebted to them for the freedom I enjoy today.

We Were Brothers.

[DannyInvincible]

Not sure of the maths of that one AB, but through the sacrifices made by our Armied Forces, we did help to win two World Wars against evil - The Fallen in WW1 included circa 35,000 from this island alone. I salute them, and am indebted to them for the freedom I enjoy today.

We Were Brothers.

Indeed, as that old saying goes, if it weren't for them, we Irish would all be speaking German instead of... erm, English. ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

I too respect those that died in WWI & II. On all sides, albeit with some exceptions...
Though winning or losing WWI had a pretty limited effect in this part of Europe.

However that pales into massive insignificance if you account for all those who died over the centuries up to modern times resisting the establishment of the British state and Empire.
Including many Irish, Scots and Welsh ironically. And a good few English people to be fair.

[gastric]

This is turning into a lovefest! After all the years of us arguing some points of agreement!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yes. You can thank James...
;)

[Not Brazil]

I too respect those that died in WWI & II. On all sides, albeit with some exceptions...
Though winning or losing WWI had a pretty limited effect in this part of Europe.


Oh, I don't know - if that War hadn't have been won, you and me wouldn't have the freedom to argue about our identities.

Maybe James McClean wouldn't have had the freedom to choose what things he commemorates, and what he doesn't.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Or anyone else for that matter...

Including many British citizens, famous or not.

[Paddy Garcia]

. Mcclean comes over rather bitter and uneducated.

You might not agree with his decision - and he may be rash in his decision making - however there is nothing to suggest he is uneducated - the opposite in fact.

[bennocelt]

Hears an idea, dont watch English football on an English TV channel then.

I dont!!! God, death to the person who goes against the grain, tsk:rolleyes:

[bennocelt]

His "statement" is ill-informed if he believes the poppy is specifically and exclusively supportive of the British Army and that is his reason for not wearing it. His decision seems unnecessarily provocative.

And to be honest, I don't particularly care about arguing anymore about this issue with a group of posters who only usually surface with opinions on subjects related to the relationships between ireland, northern Ireland and Britain.

Says the guy in far away Saskatchewan, lol :rolleyes:

[OMTY]

we did help to win two World Wars against evil -

.

Obviously you are correct about the second World War, but I've never heard WW1 described as a fight against "evil" before.

[Roberto]

Did anyone notice Colin Murray's 'dig' at McClean on Match of the Day 2 last night? He finished the programme with the comment 'on a day when ALMOST everyone footballer chose to wear the poppy'. The guy should stick to objective presentation as I am sure he is not being paid to have a go at footballers.

Without attempting to start a debate on the 'irish question' and who did what to who, do people honestly think that people in nationalist Derry wore poppies over the weekend? Why would a young lad from Derry choose to wear one in England then. And don't spout this rubbish about him earning a living over there. If it was a choice between upsetting his family and friends back home (let's not foget get the British army's record in his native city) by wearing one or upsetting some media hacks like Colin Murray and racist soccer supporters (just have a look at some english soccer forums that are spewing out their anti Irishness today) by not wearing one I know which one I would choose.

And if you are questioning McClean's intelligence because he didn't wear a poppy perhaps an IQ test is in order for yourself.

[peadar1987]

It probably wasn't a dig, presenters often make a nudge at some controversial issue without it being an attack.

[DannyInvincible]

It probably wasn't a dig, presenters often make a nudge at some controversial issue without it being an attack.

Murray and McClean have what you might call history. It sounds like a cheap shot and I wouldn't have thought it Murray's business to pass judgment on the private decision of a player, but I haven't seen it, so difficult to judge.

[Roberto]

It probably wasn't a dig, presenters often make a nudge at some controversial issue without it being an attack.

I'd say it was a dig alright in view of the previous history between the 2 of them (i.e. McClean taking offence to Murray's description on him as 'northern irish'.

[DannyInvincible]

Obviously you are correct about the second World War, but I've never heard WW1 described as a fight against "evil" before.

They'll justify them to us by telling us they're fought against "evil" or to protect/spread "freedom", but, ultimately, wars are fought for power. ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

All part of the propaganda to justify it.

History after all is written by the 'winners'.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Trap clearly thinks so?

Trap backs McClean over poppy protest
Ireland manager Giovanni Trapattoni has defended James McClean’s decision not to wear a poppy during Sunderland’s Premier League game on Saturday.

McClean, 23, opted not to wear a custom-made shirt with the emblem during Sunderland’s 2-1 defeat at Everton.

McClean was brought up on the Creggan estate in Derry, which had six people killed in the Bloody Sunday massacre in 1972, and Trap says that McClean has the right to make his own decision.

“This is his choice, the mentality, the habit,” he said.

“I think it’s a personal choice and obviously I will defend the player. Maybe it’s not over until now, the situation with the Irish people, the north and south people.”

Trap suggested that McClean’s attitude may soften as he grows older.

“Players are young, they are kids,” he continued. “I am sure in five to 10 years, they become old, they will have more experience in life and can think more about every situation.”

Manager Martin O’Neill, who is also from Derry, wore a poppy in post-match interviews, as did Manchester City’s Argentinian contingent of Carlos Tevez, Pablo Zabaleto and Sergio Aguero in Sunday’s game with Tottenham at Eastlands. Argentina and the United Kingdom have a strained diplomatic relationship since the Falklands War in 1982.

A Premier League spokesperson said that every player had the right to refuse to wear the shirts.

“We have great support from the clubs. It is a matter of choice whether people wore the poppy,” he said.

[Dodge]

As an aside McClean is auctioning off his jersey from Saturday for charity. You can find more info here;

http://irishnewsreview.net/2012/11/12/ex-derry-city-stars-auction-off-poppyless-mcclean-jersey/

[tetsujin1979]

All part of the propaganda to justify it.

History after all is written by the 'winners'.
and I want my say..

[Humpy Gussy]

Not sure if mentioned already but McClean has auctioned off his poppy-less shirt for a cancer charity. Nice gesture I reckon.

[peadar1987]

They'll justify them to us by telling us they're fought against "evil" or to protect/spread "freedom", but, ultimately, wars are fought for power. ;)

I'd tend to agree. World War 2 might have rid the world of an incredibly evil and destructive regime, but the reason it was fought was not because Britain was protecting the freedom of small nations, it was because they were concerned about the rise of Germany threatening their own power. And the less said about the Americans the better. "We saved your asses in WW2?". Sure, you helped, but only after you were attacked yourselves. The help was much appreciated and very valuable, but don't act like you did it out of the goodness of your hearts!

[ArdeeBhoy]

and I want my say..

Of what?

[geysir]

I'd tend to agree. World War 2 might have rid the world of an incredibly evil and destructive regime, but the reason it was fought was not because Britain was protecting the freedom of small nations, it was because they were concerned about the rise of Germany threatening their own power.

Sure any war which threatened the British Empire was a force of evil :rolleyes:
Ultimately, WW2 for the British Empire was a disaster, despite their best efforts to commit huge resources to defend their imperial interests and forcefully suppress independence movements. WW2 was the death knell to the British Empire. Hundreds of millions of people now enjoy the freedom to live their lives away from the pernicious yoke of the British Empire.
Yes, one can say WW2 rid parts of the the world of an incredibly evil and destructive regime.

Back to James, now living and working in the so called land of freedom :rolleyes: which in reality means when one has a rational independent opinion, one has to bear the brunt of popular ignorance, intolerance, ridicule and the specter of a growing level of popular fascism.

[tetsujin1979]

All part of the propaganda to justify it.

History after all is written by the 'winners'.


and I want my say..


Of what?

listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnBIA8q7QO8
from 2:33

(bit obscure I know)

[ArdeeBhoy]

You're not wrong!


popular fascism.

Don't you mean 'poppy fascism'...
;)

[Stuttgart88]

All part of the propaganda to justify it.

History after all is written by the 'winners'.Did we meet on Saturday? It was the sentence construction that gave it away, plus a clue you dropped here involving my name about a year ago that made the penny drop.

Although there is a huge degree of poppy fascism over here and there are strong (UK) nationalist overtones to the whole thing, I
think it's pretty easy to disaggregate the nationalist overtones from the general sentiment of respecting the dead - mostly young men, probably apolitical, and mostly all died in grim circumstances. I wear a poppy although I didn't when I first came over here. I'd think myself a bit churlish not to, but each to his own.

[peadar1987]

I don't wear a poppy because I don't want to support the British army, but I will bow my head for the two minutes silence because I have the greatest of respect for the sacrifice made by many of its members. I don't think there's a conflict there.

Going back the the FAI Cup final analogy, for me, wearing the poppy is equivalent to putting your hand on your heart during the national anthem. No reason anyone not from Ireland should be expected to do that, although fair play to them if they want to.

[Fixer82]

Either way, I'd be stunned if McClean made the decision himself. I'm sure his "mates" from Derry made sure he was in the dark about the real meaning and made it a simple "don't support the brits" situation. He's not the brightest is our James.

What is the real meaning?
The poppy is for all British soldiers who died in all wars. That includes soldiers involved in the Troubles and soldiers who burnt Cork to the ground in the War of Independence.
I'm delighted he made a stand and it has always galled me that nobody has stood up to this poppy fascism.
I say fair play to him! I know if I was a premiership footballer I would be hugely uncomfortable wearing it.
I think sport should stay out of this kind of thing.
What if all LOI clubs wore a lily on their jerseys during Easter? It would be just embarrassing and possibly uncomfortable for any English players playing here.

[Fixer82]

At its heart hes not wearing one because he doesnt like the British. I dont object to this but if he feels like that he should live somewhere else.

That's a ridiculous thing to say. How do you know he dislikes 'The British'.?
I honestly don't think he'd continue playing with British team-mates if he was a small-minded racist like you suggest.
He may not, like all republicans, be too fond of the practices of the British Establishment in his country for the last number of years but that does not make him a racist.
Why should he have to wear a poppy and buy in to the propaganda surrounding it? I salute him for taking a stand!

[paul_oshea]

Did we meet on Saturday? It was the sentence construction that gave it away, plus a clue you dropped here involving my name about a year ago that made the penny drop.

Although there is a huge degree of poppy fascism over here and there are strong (UK) nationalist overtones to the whole thing, I
think it's pretty easy to disaggregate the nationalist overtones from the general sentiment of respecting the dead - mostly young men, probably apolitical, and mostly all died in grim circumstances. I wear a poppy although I didn't when I first came over here. I'd think myself a bit churlish not to, but each to his own.

I've been here almost 10 years, i haven't worn one, I still don't feel the need to wear one to fit in. Its funny I was going to ask if you wore one, but I assumed you did.

The only thing I have found uncomfortable was when we had to obey a 2 minute silence, I didn't intentionally speak out but it happened.

Oh ya and this sport and politics crap, whoever keeps saying stop mixing the two, is a dope of the highest order. It is inevitably mixed even if some like to live in the clouds and think it isn't.

[Charlie Darwin]

Arguable that James is guilty of bringing further political issues into football as a result of his stance.
I can see what you mean, but in this case he was kind of railroaded into making a decision where both wearing and not wearing the poppy would have been some form of political statement, one of which he's not comfortable with.

[CraftyToePoke]

I've been here almost 10 years, i haven't worn one, I still don't feel the need to wear one to fit in. Its funny I was going to ask if you wore one, but I assumed you did.

Do you reckon I wear one Paul ? To poppy or not to poppy?

Also with McClean, I feel choice has to be respected and this is a young guy, albeit maybe one who reacts a little bit too quickly at times, but who's people back home wouldn't like to see him don a poppy, he would receive ribbing or even be shunned by some of them, and who of us at that age would not have half an eye on that. Not wishing to give the impression he has gone to England, is taking the good money and forgotten all about the community that forged him and where he still calls home, is perfectly understandable and I admire that he didn't swap that for convenience.

[paul_oshea]

I don't think you think too much about what you wear, so I doubt you even think about wearing a poppy :P

Even though you are working directly with English and your partner is English, and you are more entrenched in middle(class/location) England, I don't think you do, no. Or as the case may be, to copy or not to copy....

[CraftyToePoke]

I don't think you think too much about what you wear, so I doubt you even think about wearing a poppy :P

Even though you are working directly with English and your partner is English, and you are more entrenched in middle(class/location) England, I don't think you do, no. Or as the case may be, to copy or not to copy....

I am probably a little bit less entrenched than the men the poppy is for though Paul, to be fair. Lovely choice of word though. Super.

[paul_oshea]

Ya, I purposely chose it given the context of the last few pages of James' thread.

[SkStu]

Says the guy in far away Saskatchewan, lol :rolleyes:

What the hell has that got to do with anything I posted? Or the bit that you quoted me? Poor form, very poor.

[SkStu]

What is the real meaning?
The poppy is for all British soldiers who died in all wars.

Maybe this is why I'm struggling with the opinions of a lot of posters on this issue. The poppy is worn here in Canada too and it is used to commemorate all fallen soldiers from around the world, not exclusively Canadian and certainly not British though a lot of the official ceremonies involve Canadian veterans as would be expected. Isn't this the same in England? Either way, I just think there's other things to get worked up over. The poppy symbolism seems kind of harmless to me.

[paul_oshea]

Do you wear one Skstu? I think i see where benno is coming from but it wasn't very clear.

Without sounding rude here, I dont think you fully understand, and are seeing it purely from inside the box - the Canadian one in this case.

[SkStu]

No, I don't wear one.

What don't I understand? That its majorly pro-Brit symbolism? If that's the case then just say it. I know that if it was majorly pro-Brit, it would probably **** me off hearing about it between bouts of Coronation Street and Eastenders. I actually don't have much of an opinion on the wearing or non-wearing of a poppy despite what the last few pages would suggest. And im all for personal choice in most circumstances. I just think that McCleans actions are a bit immature and self indulgent. He knows from his twitter abuse that this is easy pickings for those that want it to be and he just goes ahead and gives them what they want. We should be talking about his performances, not this sh!te.

I still don't understand what bennocelt was getting at.

[DannyInvincible]

What the hell has that got to do with anything I posted? Or the bit that you quoted me? Poor form, very poor.

Probably as irrelevent to the general discussion as your remark about the posting habits of others, eh? ;)


Maybe this is why I'm struggling with the opinions of a lot of posters on this issue. The poppy is worn here in Canada too and it is used to commemorate all fallen soldiers from around the world, not exclusively Canadian and certainly not British though a lot of the official ceremonies involve Canadian veterans as would be expected. Isn't this the same in England? Either way, I just think there's other things to get worked up over. The poppy symbolism seems kind of harmless to me.

The Poppy Appeal is run by the Royal British Legion in the UK, a charity organisation affiliated to the British Armed Forces. I'm not certain if the link is formal or official, but there is an undoubted and undeniable association between the symbol and the British Army that, for many, will amount to a stigma due to their own circumstances.

[SolitudeRed]

Maybe this is why I'm struggling with the opinions of a lot of posters on this issue. The poppy is worn here in Canada too and it is used to commemorate all fallen soldiers from around the world, not exclusively Canadian and certainly not British though a lot of the official ceremonies involve Canadian veterans as would be expected. Isn't this the same in England? Either way, I just think there's other things to get worked up over. The poppy symbolism seems kind of harmless to me.


Well I always was told that in the UK it was for serving British soldiers and veterans of all its wars not exclusively the world wars and that it specifically does not commemorate all combatants and innocents who have died in war I believe its only the white poppy that does that. I can see why it is confusing that people would get so worked up over this Its different if your a Nationalist living in the North I suppose and I feel the poppy is used by some sections here as more of a symbol of loyalism rather than a pure act of remembrance. For example in recent months at an supermarket in North Belfast a former UVF member who worked there committed suicide and the local community who would be overwhelmingly loyalist saw fit to commemorate the man by tying numerous NI flags,union jacks and UVF flags and 'lest we forget' poppy scarves on the fence and the local UVF unit placed a poppy wreath in his honour at the front of the store given the backdrop of the poppy and how it is used by some here I don't find it surprising that some would be opposed to wearing it although McClean has acted somewhat naively here I feel as he is only going to bring himself more hassle because of it and he should be concentrating on his football but at the same time whats the point of saying people have freedom of choice if they are not allowed to use it. It seems to be a sign of insecurity and uncertainty over national identity that this has become such a prominent issue and seemingly portrayed as something central to Englishness/Britishness but I suppose this is not surprising given the deepening racial divides that have been evident in England.

[DannyInvincible]

No, I don't wear one.

Just like James McClean then, except he's being an outspoken idiot when he chooses not to wear one whilst you're not making any statement at all presumably?

[SkStu]

Are we starting all over again Danny?

I'm not in the public eye, haven't gone against the rest of my team and haven't been involved in highly publicized, politically sensitive, Internet arguments.

Thank you and SolitudeRed for the education. It's a symbol that has been hijacked by loyalism and British nationalist institutions. Didn't know that. Would have saved a lot of hassle for someone to just have explained it early on without me having to ask the question.