James McClean M Wrexham b.1989

[ArdeeBhoy]

Whatever the poppy stood for in the past has been long on the wane.

Sadly now it's been exploited by the Brit.establishment purely for propaganda reasons.
Not that there's any logic now in commemorating any of their forces who've died since 1945 anyway...

[IsMiseSean]

Interesting article which I came across on twitter
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

[cavan_fan]

Interesting article which I came across on twitter
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

Yeah Im sure thats why he wasnt wearing it, he is clearly a keen student of modern history!

Look he doesnt have to wear one at home but hes playing in England, happy to take the money so he should adopt local practices.

By doing this he has made a very active specific point that he has an issue with the vast majority of the people in the country where he works. If this is his view he needs to move back to Ireland or to another country.

[Charlie Darwin]

I wasn't remotely suggesting that Sunderland fans would take note of what happens on the BBC rugby show.

Why is it that certain players are targeted for abuse?
Today there's an article in the Guardian about Neil Lennon "he has been regularly caricatured in the Scottish press as an immature hothead and a loose cannon who was somehow partly responsible for the vicissitudes he has encountered. One former Scotland international, writing in a Sunday newspaper, even suggested Lennon had brought the death threats upon himself because of his edgy demeanor. As they flock to praise him now they adopt a supercilious tone in the manner of a headmaster handing over the best-pupil prize to a classroom miscreant who has changed his ways."

Here we have similar opinions expressed about McClean not just from the press but from Irish fans as well.
More or less that he should shut up, he should wear the poppy, he hasn't the brains to have an conscious rational objection to not wearing the poppy, he brings all this vicissitude upon himself, he is a moron.
But he is a moron.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Your opinion CD.

He may think likewise?
;)


Look he doesnt have to wear one at home but hes playing in England, happy to take the money so he should adopt local practices.

By doing this he has made a very active specific point that he has an issue with the vast majority of the people in the country where he works. If this is his view he needs to move back to Ireland or to another country.
Complete nonsense.

Besides the fact that everyone in Britain has the freedom of choice on this matter, including many British/English people who don't wear one or fall for this propaganda, it's not as if every ethnic group adapts local practices of their host countries in very many instances...

[SwanVsDalton]

By doing this he has made a very active specific point that he has an issue with the vast majority of the people in the country where he works. If this is his view he needs to move back to Ireland or to another country.

But that's nonsense. Walk around the streets of London, see how many are wearing poppies - maybe 50 per cent. Walk around Liverpool - even less. Regardless of where he works, he doesn't have to adopt anything he doesn't feel comfortable with. Poppy wearing is, and should be voluntary. That 'happy to take the money' point is crazy.

[Charlie Darwin]

If he's happy enough to take their money then he should be happy enough to speak in an English accent. Sick of people moving and not adopting the local practices.

[osarusan]

More of that military poppy crap before today's games. Some old soldiers in uniform shaking hands with the players before kickoff.

I'm sure that the soldier shaking John Terry's hand was thinking that paying a scumbag racist hundreds of thousands of pounds to kick a ball around was the kind of future he and his mates fought and often died for.

[cavan_fan]

If he's happy enough to take their money then he should be happy enough to speak in an English accent. Sick of people moving and not adopting the local practices.

At its heart hes not wearing one because he doesnt like the British. I dont object to this but if he feels like that he should live somewhere else. This is not a personal thing, he wasnt walking around the streets. He was as far as I am aware the only premiership player yesterday who decided to do this (including Ashkan Dejagah from Iran). In conjunction with his previous statements its hard to avoid the idea that he just doesnt like Britain. Thats not an issue but its a bit rich to then work there.

[cavan_fan]

Hears an idea, dont watch English football on an English TV channel then.

[Charlie Darwin]

At its heart hes not wearing one because he doesnt like the British. I dont object to this but if he feels like that he should live somewhere else. This is not a personal thing, he wasnt walking around the streets. He was as far as I am aware the only premiership player yesterday who decided to do this (including Ashkan Dejagah from Iran). In conjunction with his previous statements its hard to avoid the idea that he just doesnt like Britain. Thats not an issue but its a bit rich to then work there.
He's not wearing him because he doesn't like the British Army or what it stands for. I'm sure he has as many or more British mates than any of us.

[horton]

Didn't Dara O'Briain get a lot of stick about not wearing the Poppy before he relented? I used to live in Manchester, and quite a few locals told me they were glad the IRA bombed the town, they got a brand new city centre because of it! Can't see what the fuss is about, everyone harps on about WW1+2, most of the money raised by the British Legion goes to fund the families of (ex/)service men and woman who got injured in Iraq/Afghanistan/wherever else the BA went that they weren't wanted. They died for "our" freedom of speech and opinion, which James will only get as long as it conforms to political correctness

[DannyInvincible]

While you'd commend someone taking a stand against this all-pervasive poppy onslaught in recent years.... the kid has invited a world of sectarian pain upon himself at a time when his career is at a critical point....

Does that make him responsible or negate the culpability of moronic bigots and these so-called poppy fascists who are set on vilifying and abusing him? If people have a problem with his identity, what's he to do? Stop being himself and submit to doing something he doesn't want to? He's a free man living within the law.


Post #1296 continues to apply...

http://foot.ie/threads/160177-James-McClean?p=1639164&viewfull=1#post1639164

But he hasn't made any statement on the "issue" at all. If anything, wasn't it those who'd opted to wear a poppy-printed jersey, as opposed to the usual poppyless jerseys they wear every week, that were making the active statement?


Perhaps but do you think he knows it's to honour conscripted soldiers who had no choice in the matter and were sent to be slaughtered in vain to keep rich Englishmen happy? I really don't think he's the type who does nuance very well.

I'm not saying he was wrong to choose not to wear it, I just don't think he understands why.

But the poppy has different connotations for different people. It's status as a symbol of contention isn't confined to just Ireland. I'm sure James fully understands what the British army got up to in Derry; that's the meaning he attributes to it. And, so what then of the stance of the more refined, articulate and enlightened Martin O'Neill? Did he similarly misunderstand?


Yeah Im sure thats why he wasnt wearing it, he is clearly a keen student of modern history!

Look he doesnt have to wear one at home but hes playing in England, happy to take the money so he should adopt local practices.

By doing this he has made a very active specific point that he has an issue with the vast majority of the people in the country where he works. If this is his view he needs to move back to Ireland or to another country.

Ye wha'?! :confused: Failure to don a poppy now equates to harbouring antipathy towards the English people? What a load of absolute ********. My English girlfriend respects my non-wearing of the symbol. In fact, she doesn't even wear one herself!

What other "local practices" should James be obliged to adopt under this totalitarian English social contract of yours because he's "happy to take the money"? I suppose I'll have to do the same too...

[DannyInvincible]

At its heart hes not wearing one because he doesnt like the British. I dont object to this but if he feels like that he should live somewhere else.

Where'd you get the impression he doesn't like the British?

[paul_oshea]

He's not wearing him because he doesn't like the British Army or what it stands for. I'm sure he has as many or more British mates than any of us.


Of course he would he is from Northern Ireland.

[cavan_fan]

There is a huge difference between individual choice and being part of a team. Teams decide to make statements like this all the time, they wear black armbands and the whole team wears them. There are minutes silences. The point is that every other player from every other country managed to wear theirs. There is a difference between your personal view and representing your club. Sunderland decided they would do this, they are a public orgainsation representing the people of Sunderland, the vast majority of whom support wearing poppys.

I wouldnt have so much of an issue if he was English, but when you go to live in a foreign country you do so knowing you will have to adapt. It reminds me of British people going to live in Saudi and complaining they cant drink.

I agree this is based on McCleans quite understandable dislike of the British army, what I dont understand is why given that, did he decide to live in England, where there is a large (and growing) support for that organisation.

[paul_oshea]

I was going to comment about a connection between those industrial cities and working class areas who would have produced the majority of recruits for the British Army from centuries gone and until recent. The connection between those and soccer is fairly obvious. So I don't feel the need to make the point. But these same people wouldn't have a clue about Northern Ireland and I would wonder how many know what the original poppy symbolised across Europe, not just Britain. Anyway I heard today some General - btw i worked for a company whose former main man was General Sir Mike Jackson(the derry folk will know him well), I never wore the poppy nor did I feel I had to/should and if they did I would have done exactly as James had done, granted with far less reasoning or feeling - say how its a symbol of all those who gave their life for the freedom we all enjoy today, that they provided freedom and saved many lives not limited to the two Great wars. That was enough for me really, that's what it has come to symbolise over here - the British Army.

[DannyInvincible]

There is a huge difference between individual choice and being part of a team. Teams decide to make statements like this all the time, they wear black armbands and the whole team wears them. There are minutes silences. The point is that every other player from every other country managed to wear theirs. There is a difference between your personal view and representing your club. Sunderland decided they would do this, they are a public orgainsation representing the people of Sunderland, the vast majority of whom support wearing poppys.

But Sunderland made clear in a public statement that James had a personal choice.


It reminds me of British people going to live in Saudi and complaining they cant drink.

Well, no, because that's the law in Saudi Arabia. No law in the UK obliges anyone to wear a poppy.


I agree this is based on McCleans quite understandable dislike of the British army, what I dont understand is why given that, did he decide to live in England, where there is a large (and growing) support for that organisation.

Eh? He moved to England to earn a living. Why would it be of any concern to him that other people also living in England might hold positive sentiment for the British army? Why should that dictate his conduct?

[SkStu]

But he hasn't made any statement on the "issue" at all. If anything, wasn't it those who'd opted to wear a poppy-printed jersey, as opposed to the usual poppyless jerseys they wear every week, that were making the active statement?

No. In the case of McLean, being the only player in a team that is not wearing the poppy, he then becomes the one making the active statement. I dont give a sh!t about the poppy or whatever but I stand by my post, he seems to actively court controversy at every opportunity. Actually, he comes across as a complete pr!ck if I'm being honest.

[horton]

So he should follow suit if the rest of the team opt to do something? surely the point of the poppy is to wear it to show support for a particular cause. Wouldn't him wearing it when he doesn't agree with it kinda defeat the purpose of the thing in the first place?

[ArdeeBhoy]

At its heart hes not wearing one because he doesnt like the British. I dont object to this but if he feels like that he should live somewhere else.
In conjunction with his previous statements its hard to avoid the idea that he just doesnt like Britain. Thats not an issue but its a bit rich to then work there.
If you apply that rule of logic, to say everyone in the EU, you're talking a lot of people. Sorry, but that's just rubbish.

Also there is no 'large (and growing) support' for the British Army.

To be fair, not least in Britain itself.
:rolleyes:

[cavan_fan]

So let me give an example. Before the FAI cup final they play the national anthem. One of the teams has an English player who had a relative killed by the IRA. He decides not to stand for the anthem but goes to do some warm ups. What would the reaction be?

1 - He has a free choice and it is up to him. His reaction is understandable as the anthem signifies Irish nationalism which has caused him person pain.
2 - If he doesnt like the anthem he shouldnt play in Ireland?

McClean actively decided to offend a huge proportion of the population of the country in which he lives.

[DannyInvincible]

Anyway I heard today some General ... say how its a symbol of all those who gave their life for the freedom we all enjoy today, that they provided freedom and saved many lives not limited to the two Great wars.

It's odd to hear some speak of this and then condemn those who avail of such freedom in their decision not to wear a poppy.

[nigel-harps1954]

McClean actively decided to offend a huge proportion of the population of the country in which he lives.

And I'm pretty sure that's exactly what was running through his mind when he chose not to wear it.

"Today, for a bit of craic, I'm going to p*ss off half the UK where I live and work and am greatly exposed to the media".

Good job James.

[SkStu]

So he should follow suit if the rest of the team opt to do something?

yes..

In fact, that's exactly what it boils down to.

[DannyInvincible]

So let me give an example. Before the FAI cup final they play the national anthem. One of the teams has an English player who had a relative killed by the IRA. He decides not to stand for the anthem but goes to do some warm ups. What would the reaction be?

1 - He has a free choice and it is up to him. His reaction is understandable as the anthem signifies Irish nationalism which has caused him person pain.
2 - If he doesnt like the anthem he shouldnt play in Ireland?

McClean actively decided to offend a huge proportion of the population of the country in which he lives.

Funnily enough, Sammy Morrow stood out before the 2008 FAI Cup final as the only Derry player who opted not to face the tricolour during the anthem. Why should that be the business of anyone else?


No. In the case of McLean, being the only player in a team that is not wearing the poppy, he then becomes the one making the active statement. I dont give a sh!t about the poppy or whatever but I stand by my post, he seems to actively court controversy at every opportunity. Actually, he comes across as a complete pr!ck if I'm being honest.

Hmm, I don't agree. Sunderland opted to make a statement and gave their players the choice to conform if they wished. James didn't and wore the same jersey he does every other week. He opted out of making a statement. I thought you'd commend him for that! :)

And what of his manager's "statement"?

[SkStu]

I don't agree with your interpretation of his approach to the issue and I'd imagine that, deep down, you don't either. :)

[tricky_colour]

There are many problems with the poppy, I think when they sold off council housing to
private speculators they should have ditched the remembrance day lark, it's clear they don't remember anything, it's just a charade.
Even today they have some priority thing for soldiers or those who chose to work as slaves get priority in council
housing, but that misses the point in that they should provide housing for all who need it.
After all is it word fighting for a country that fails to provide housing for it's own people?

[Charlie Darwin]

I think the best way to honour the memory of soldiers past would be to stop voting in governments that will enthusiastically send future generations out to war. But that's just me :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

McClean actively decided to offend a huge proportion of the population of the country in which he lives.

The same huge proportion of the population who don't even follow soccer.
Let alone Sunderland or James McClean.
And who are blissfully unaware of both.

And even they were, wouldn't care anyway.

[paul_oshea]

the ira is not our army.you cant possibly compare the two.nor could some player in that situarion were it ever to arise.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't agree with your interpretation of his approach to the issue and I'd imagine that, deep down, you don't either. :)

I've seen many people wearing a poppy around Manchester this week. I haven't worn one. Am I the one making the statement?

[Not Brazil]

McClean made it quite clear his reasons for not wearing the Poppy - out of respect for those killed at the hands of the British Army in his home City.

Those that fought in two World Wars, from Great Britain & Ireland, did so that people like McClean should have the freedom to make choices like whether or not they wanted to wear a Poppy.

I proudly wear my Poppy ( a little lapel one just like Sir Alex Ferguson) for a few days each year at this time as a mark of respect to our Glorious Dead - if that offends anyone, too bad. I respect the right of anyone, for whatever their reasons, not to wear a Poppy.

I was delighted to see The Taoiseach and The Tánaiste attend Remembrance Day Services in Enniskillen ( a particularly sombre occassion on the 25th Anniversary of the bombing at The Cenotaph there) and Belfast today. They were there to pay their respects to those from this island who paid the ultimate sacrifice in the World Wars. They displayed an understanding of our shared history.

"We Were Brothers"

[SkStu]

I've seen many people wearing a poppy around Manchester this week. I haven't worn one. Am I the one making the statement?

I don't know, are you?

[DannyInvincible]

McClean made it quite clear his reasons for not wearing the Poppy - out of respect for those killed at the hands of the British Army in his home City.

Did he, or are you assuming his reasoning?

There's a lot of rich talk on the bustling OWC McClean thread at the minute. What ever happened to keeping politics out of football, eh?...


I don't know, are you?

Not at all. Just like James, no?

[Andyh]

Why would a foreigner wear something in commemoration of a foreign army which in the past fought against his country? Perhaps some wish to out of respect for the country they're playing in but there should be no pressure on them to do so, the british are really strange about this poppy business.

Maybe because a 'foreign' football club pays him hundreds of thousands of pounds a year to play football. He should at least be respectful of the people in the country in which he now lives/works. The Argentine players managed to do this. Mcclean comes over rather bitter and uneducated.

[SkStu]

Did he, or are you assuming his reasoning?

There's a lot of rich talk on the bustling OWC McClean thread at the minute. What ever happened to keeping politics out of football, eh?...

Arguable that James is guilty of bringing further political issues into football as a result of his stance.


Not at all. Just like James, no?

No and I've explained why. Did you make a conscious decision to go against what your teammates were doing? Once he did this he is the one making the statement. And a really ill informed one at that.

[Not Brazil]

Mcclean comes over rather bitter and uneducated.

I wonder how he gets on with Conor Wickham...I'd guess there would be some interesting differences in opinion in that relationship.

[DannyInvincible]

Maybe because a 'foreign' football club pays him hundreds of thousands of pounds a year to play football.

But they gave their players the choice.


He should at least be respectful of the people in the country in which he now lives/works.

Says who? And he has to do that by donning a poppy? Plenty of English people don't wear a poppy. Are they being disrespectful? :confused:


Arguable that James is guilty of bringing further political issues into football as a result of his stance.

My tongue was firmly wedged in cheek, but that's football and politics for you. What do you expect when football is politicised?


No and I've explained why. Did you make a conscious decision to go against what your teammates were doing? Once he did this he is the one making the statement. And a really ill informed one at that.

Why should it matter what his team-mates were doing? The club decided to make a political statement and McClean opted out of it. There was no obligation placed upon him to wear a poppy. He fell foul of no rule, law or policy. What was ill-informed about such a decision?

[The Fly]

No and I've explained why. Did you make a conscious decision to go against what your teammates were doing? Once he did this he is the one making the statement. And a really ill informed one at that.

Please explain how his decision is ill-informed.

[SkStu]

His "statement" is ill-informed if he believes the poppy is specifically and exclusively supportive of the British Army and that is his reason for not wearing it. His decision seems unnecessarily provocative.

And to be honest, I don't particularly care about arguing anymore about this issue with a group of posters who only usually surface with opinions on subjects related to the relationships between ireland, northern Ireland and Britain.

[SwanVsDalton]

McClean actively decided to offend a huge proportion of the population of the country in which he lives.

But how? Millions of people don't wear a poppy in the UK. Millions don't care about that cause whatsoever. If anything McClean would be more likely to offend a huge proportion of a community in his place of birth (Northern Ireland) than where he currently lives, given his previous stance on various things - and I'm not sure how that fits with your 'when in Rome' theory.

You haven't offered anything analogous to what McClean did - it's nowhere near the same as ex-pats in the Middle East or elsewhere.

Oh and...does anyone think he'll start Wednesday?

[Insidetherock]

Yeah Im sure thats why he wasnt wearing it, he is clearly a keen student of modern history!

Look he doesnt have to wear one at home but hes playing in England, happy to take the money so he should adopt local practices.

By doing this he has made a very active specific point that he has an issue with the vast majority of the people in the country where he works. If this is his view he needs to move back to Ireland or to another country.

Adopt local practices ?

Do you reckon that Eamon Zayed, whilst playing in Iran, should get himself involved in a few stonings of women or hangings of homosexuals ?

Maybe a few American/British flag burnings ?

Let's be completely honest here.. the wearing of the poppy has become politicised in recent years, and how many of us believe that politics and sport shouldn't mix.

I abhor the notion that players should have to "conform" to something they might not believe in, just to satisfy someone else.

In fact, I believe FIFA should step in and stop the FA "forcing" football teams to partake in "poppy" politics. It's my belief that all political symbols should be removed from sports jersies.

Now, you might argue that the players were honouring their fallen relatives. Well, what would you have said if Per Mertasacker or Lucas Podolski had worn a swastika yesterday to honour a dead relative of theirs ?

Mc Clean was right to say no yesterday. And all poppies should be removed from jersies in the future, so this stupid argument wouldn't have to take place.

[Insidetherock]

His "statement" is ill-informed if he believes the poppy is specifically and exclusively supportive of the British Army and that is his reason for not wearing it. His decision seems unnecessarily provocative.

And to be honest, I don't particularly care about arguing anymore about this issue with a group of posters who only usually surface with opinions on subjects related to the relationships between ireland, northern Ireland and Britain.

If it isn't supportive of the British Army, who is it supportive of ?

And, on another point, I don't think ex servicemen should have to rely on the British Legion or any other charity to look after them if they fall on hard times, especially if the hard times relate to their time in service. The British Army, and by extension the British Government sent them to war, they should look after them

[Insidetherock]

His "statement" is ill-informed if he believes the poppy is specifically and exclusively supportive of the British Army and that is his reason for not wearing it. His decision seems unnecessarily provocative.<br>
<br>
And to be honest, I don't particularly care about arguing anymore about this issue with a group of posters who only usually surface with opinions on subjects related to the relationships between ireland, northern Ireland and Britain.<br><br>If it isn't supportive of the British Army, who is it supportive of ?<br><br>And, on another point, I don't think ex servicemen should have to rely on the British Legion or any other charity to look after them if they fall on hard times, especially if the hard times relate to their time in service. The British Army, and by extension the British Government sent them to war, they should look after them <br>
<br>

[Not Brazil]

And all poppies should be removed from jersies in the future, so this stupid argument wouldn't have to take place.

I'd rather the argument took place than have Clubs/players have the right to wear a Poppy on their shirt in Remembrance of our Fallen (if they so wish) removed.

[The Fly]

His "statement" is ill-informed if he believes the poppy is specifically and exclusively supportive of the British Army and that is his reason for not wearing it.

His reason for not wearing one is obvious, and hardly needs repeating. I have never worn a poppy, and never will for similar, yet broader, reasons.



His decision seems unnecessarily provocative.

If his decision seems provocative, it is only because it has been made in a time when poppy wearing has become almost ubiquitous in Britain.



And to be honest, I don't particularly care about arguing anymore about this issue with a group of posters who only usually surface with opinions on subjects related to the relationships between ireland, northern Ireland and Britain.

That's me told then. :rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

The Fly, back bang on the issue there.


And to be honest, I don't particularly care about arguing anymore about this issue with a group of posters who only usually surface with opinions on subjects related to the relationships between ireland, northern Ireland and Britain.

So why even get involved then?
:rolleyes:


I'd rather the argument took place than have Clubs/players have the right to wear a Poppy on their shirt in Rememberance of our Fallen (if they so wish) removed.

'Our'? Isn't today supposed to be about everyone who died?
And one rather obvious, erm, typo above, also...

[DannyInvincible]

His "statement" is ill-informed if he believes the poppy is specifically and exclusively supportive of the British Army and that is his reason for not wearing it. His decision seems unnecessarily provocative.

Who said he believed it to be "specifically and exclusively supportive of the British Army"? Would it matter anyway? How do you know what exactly he believes with regard to the symbolism behind the poppy? We all know the connotations of the symbol in Ireland. The poppy, whether rightly or wrongly, has long been perceived as a British political symbol in Ireland - largely a preserve of the unionist community - and its wearing is associated with general supportive sentiment for the British Army. If James doesn't wish to be seen to be expressing such sentiment, perhaps because of the British Army's past activities in his home city, can you fault him? If he's unaware of the fact that the poppy might also stand to remember, say, dead Irishmen who fought for Britain, so what? The former is reason enough for him to object, I should think.


And to be honest, I don't particularly care about arguing anymore about this issue with a group of posters who only usually surface with opinions on subjects related to the relationships between ireland, northern Ireland and Britain.

No need to resort to unwarranted ad hominem attacks either; the opinions expressed by posters disagreeing with you are still as valid as any other.


I'd rather the argument took place than have Clubs/players have the right to wear a Poppy on their shirt in Rememberance of our Fallen (if they so wish) removed.

Should players have the right to wear any political emblems they wish during play?

[Not Brazil]

Should players have the right to wear any political emblems they wish during play?

Not sure on that one - for example, if an Irish Republican wanted to wear an Easter Lily during play at Easter time, I would certainly not be offended.

I do believe, strongly, that Clubs within the United Kingdom (and their players) should have the right to remember the Nation's Fallen by way of wearing a Poppy on their shirt, if they so wish, at this time of year.

I don't think that many Clubs and players in the United Kingdom will stop this honourable act of remembrance and respect on account of the sensitivities of Irish Nationalists/Republicans.