View Full Version : James McClean M Wrexham b.1989
Gather round
05/04/2013, 2:12 PM
Like gassing the weak? What was it she called them, mopers or something like that?
She must have been a OWC lurker to pick up that one.
ArdeeBhoy
05/04/2013, 2:17 PM
??
:rolleyes:
paul_oshea
05/04/2013, 3:29 PM
Like gassing the weak? What was it she called them, mopers or something like that?
What about Sheryl Sandberg?
Stuttgart88
05/04/2013, 3:57 PM
Actually it was moochers.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/us-election-2012/49100/mitt-romney-and-moochers-it%E2%80%99s-all-down-ayn-rand
DannyInvincible
05/04/2013, 5:47 PM
My point is that Facism has produced some of the world's greatest scumbags, but then again so as Communism. Communism could never work because of the faults of human beings, but it is a lovely ideology.
If I'm not mistaken, the vast bulk of prescriptive communist theory advocates the discriminate and violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie in order to establish a dictatorship of the proletariat, although, in spite of this, and like Stutts, I do still view communism as a morally superior ideology (and greatly admire purely descriptive Marxian thought along with the Marxist critique of capitalist society) to the various brands of fascism in the sense that communism discriminates on a material basis rather than on a natural, ethnic or racial basis like, say, Nazism. Communism is very much egalitarian in theory, but, as you say, realising such doesn't appear compatible with our self-interested human nature. Perhaps communism's rosy theoretical guise is it's fundamental and unwitting danger in that it attempts to convince us that it is possible to put what is essentially a form of straitjacket fundamentalism (even if it is seemingly humane, benevolent and well-intentioned) into practice. It is nigh impossible to impose ideologies upon entire populations without resorting to coercion, systematic violence and the suppression of dissident threats and thoughts.
Men like Mao and Stalin were communists in name but certainly didn't practice what they preach, but then again you could argue if you were using the same viewpoint that all the scumbag priests and bishops in the Catholic Church were only Catholic in name
Seems an odd thought, but to fascism's "credit", at least it is honest. It doesn't attempt to gloss over or cloak its totalitarian ambitions or practical nature with the deception of theoretical spin and faux-liberal sweetness. Not that its brutal honesty or lack of disingenuousness as to its means, methods and aims makes it any more palatable, but take the apparently benign and moderate UK Labour Party as an example of the contrary; seemingly benign and moderate because of their deceptive mastery. A few years ago Tony Blair lied through his teeth to the public in order to wage a war for Middle Eastern oil, yet he's still generally viewed with respect by the British establishment and certainly isn't deemed a disgraced politician by the broad British public in spite of going against the wishes of a majority of the population and the considerable amount of blood on his hands. His and his party's manipulation of the public was done with incredibly dangerous, destructive and reprehensible motives - millions of Iraqis still suffer as a consequence of his lies - but nobody would bat an eyelid if a Premier League manager declared he was a Labour voter. A manager announcing he supported the invasion of Iraq might stir a public response, sure, but I don't think it would be treated as anywhere near as scandalous as Paulo Di Canio having previously declared himself a fascist. And then there's the reverend Catholic Church, despite all its crimes and its exploitation of Christian thought as a cover in order to validate or legitimise its self-fulfilling criminal and morally corrupt endeavours.
thing is that ideology and religion is seperate to football and should always be. It shouldn't be important whether Paolo respects Mussolini, but whether the man can manage.
I'd tend to agree with your second point; that's his private business. However, Di Canio's politics, whatever they may be, make him who he is. His eccentric footballing persona is obviously influenced by his political or overall nature and vice versa. Neither exist in isolation of the other. A footballing appreciation for discipline, order, work ethic and team camaraderie should come as little surprise given what we know about his political self.
Likewise, McClean's identity politics were pivotal in his decision to declare for us internationally. And what about Trap's faith; his faith in God? Jesus, his faith in thon system?! There is no doubt that Trap's conservative Catholic values influence his managerial decisions and his expectations of players and their behaviour. It would be interesting to ascertain whether or not they bear an influence over his stubborn tactical ways...
Di Canio has been pretty clear about what he admires in fascism, which is its bull**** adherence to the virtues of order and discipline
Believing in bullsh*t isn't too smart, but what's so reprehensible about Di Canio's bullsh*t that it ought to stir a moral outcry in Sunderland? His dubious comment in relation to Jews was wholly objectionable, I admit, but it's not as if British society doesn't value order and discipline either. Otherwise, there'd be no law; no schools, prisons or institutions of that mould. If he is indeed of a thinking-intellectual political persuasion, although he denies that he is, perhaps he would advocate greater restrictions in civic freedom than what we might expect one to enjoy in a liberal democratic society (don't plenty "liberal democratic" politicians support freedom-restricting legislation too, mind?), but he's not condoned anything as reprehensible as murder or genocide, to the best of my knowledge.
his decision to start flashing fascist salutes in public is another matter entirely and he can't just cower in the corner and hope it goes away as he is currently doing.
That's dependent upon the intent behind it and our subsequent interpretation of it. A fascist salute performed by an Italian on on Italian soil isn't necessarily the same as, say, a Hitler/Nazi salute performed in front of an audience of Jews.
But being a Catholic does not entail an acceptance or approval of the awful actions of the church, whereas endorsing fascism is more or less an admission that you're a racial purist.
Is it though? Is racial theory an inherent necessity of fascist thought?
Italian fascism was based less on racial purity than Nazism, yes, and the Italian fascists had to modify their antisemitic platform as it wasn't popular among the masses. Small consolation to the thousands of Jews who were exported to death camps, mind you.
Let's make sure we're being historically-factual rather than relying on our Anglophone preconceptions here. Were they wittingly exported by the Italian authorities to death camps for extermination, or perhaps the Italian authorities were under the impression they were being sent to labour/concentration camps? I don't know for sure; just asking whether or not we can say for certain. Not that the latter, if it had been the case, would provide a blessing vindication, nor would it mean one could be classified as "good" whilst the other "bad", but there would be a moral distinction.
In fact, this article suggests the 8,000 Italian Jews who were exterminated in Nazi death camps were deported from Italy after the 1943 fall of the fascist government and Mussolini's re-imposition as nothing more than Hitler's puppet: http://www.jewishjournal.com/los_angeles/article/italian_holocaust_victims_remembered
If Italian fascists were such suckers for full-blown Nazi racist ideology, why weren't Italian Jews rounded up for extermination when Mussolini held genuine power in Italy between the late 1930s and 1943?
I have no doubt that Di Canio is just a moron with a hard-on for authority, but you can't just whitewash the racist element of fascism to suit an argument.
fascism is ... a charter for psychopaths and thugs at the very least. The "order" and "control" it seeks can only be arrived at by coercion.
The imposition of most, if not all, ideologies (even the "good" ones like communism) will require coercion because, by their very nature, their stewards must try to fit people around them rather than pragmatically mould the doctrines to fit people.
I agree with both of you though in that I suspect Di Canio's fascistic fellow-travelling may well be a symptom of his rather eccentric nature and hard-man attitude; a result of thoughtlessness as opposed to any significant degree of serious consideration.
DannyInvincible
05/04/2013, 5:48 PM
Great to see discussion like this on a football site. I'm no advocate of 'football and politics do not mix' and it reminds me that I should look up foot.ie a little more often.
Come on in and join the party; the water's plenty warm!: http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay :p
On the mixing of the inseparable football and politics - a contentious issue for many, for some reason; "politics" need not necessarily be synonymous with malignancy - neither operate in isolation or within their separate bubbles. Football can never be free from socio-cultural or political influence for the very reason that it is run by, played by and supported by inherently political beings. Politics and ideology pervade footballing rivalries. International football wouldn't exist if it weren't for identity politics. Our lives are politics and politics define our relationships, social interactions and us as people, so it's only inevitable that politics will colour our interest in sport.
If football was mere tactics and strategies, I'm not so sure I'd find it half as compelling or fascinating as I do. Is that a surprise? :p Politics add colour, humanity and personality to what otherwise would be purely mechanical. I don't see why politics in sport should be shunned as shameful or why some people are so afraid to admit that their own political characters might influence their engagement with the sport. Politics in sport don't necessarily have to be of the nasty breed; communitarian tribalism can do a good job in spicing up matters in a healthy way.
Of course, the latter paragraphs are in no way an apology for racist and homophobic politics in football. Certain supporter behaviours should be rightfully shunned.
Danny;posted those links belatedly back up thread.
Post #1968
Cheers, AB! He has done and said some idiotic things and, upon being accorded an opportunity to explain himself after the salute, that Jewish-related comment quoted in geysir's post #1990 above only dug a deeper hole for himself. I was simply reporting his recent claim that he isn't actually a fascist; that he had been previously misquoted: http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/22017645
"I am not political, I do not affiliate myself to any organisation," he said. "I am not a racist. I do not support the ideology of fascism."
He added: "I respect everyone. I am a football man. This and my family are my focus. Now I will speak only of football."
...
Di Canio was also reported to have said he was "a fascist, not a racist", although he has since claimed he was misquoted.
My interest was also in ascertaining whether "fascist" means the same thing to Di Canio as it does to the Anglophone public. I'd still imagine not. I am under the impression that fascism is more marginalised, stigmatised, demonised and discredited in the Anglosphere than it would be in Italy, where the word is unlikely to immediately connote notions of racial nastiness or stimulate visions of Hitler saluting to the Aryan masses. I'm not implying it might find itself within mainstream Italian politics, but perhaps it is more tolerable to Italians in their conception of it than it is to us in our conception of it. Perhaps, as Charlie put it, it is something that is seen as being more for hard-men who get a boner for authority, order and regimentation rather than something that is associated with genocidal racial purists?
ArdeeBhoy
05/04/2013, 5:56 PM
Glad you took the time to read those.
Not many seem to take the time;tried having the same argument elsewhere and was dismissed as not allowing PDC his right to express his views. Which would readily accept if it was not the case that the basic ethos of those very views is to deny the right to express such views...
DannyInvincible
06/04/2013, 12:20 AM
Simon Kuper gives his opinion on what Di Canio's political identification might mean to him from 1:30 onward: http://www.rte.ie/sport/player/813/380013/
You may have to scroll down the page or go to page 2 to select the specific clip depending on new additions to the top of the list.
Stuttgart88
07/04/2013, 11:28 AM
...and Simon Kuper in print
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c2ed538c-9d43-11e2-a8db-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2PmADE0jL
Football’s little problem on the right wing
By Simon Kuper
In Paolo Di Canio’s autobiography, published in 2000, the Italian footballer says he is “fascinated by Benito Mussolini”. The late fascist dictator is the person he would most like to have a “one-on-one” with. “I own dozens of Mussolini biographies,” Di Canio continues. “I think he was a deeply misunderstood individual.” The footballer admires Mussolini for rallying “an entire country behind him”, and trying to save Italy. Admittedly Mussolini wasn’t perfect: “He deceived people, his actions were often vile or calculated. But all this was motivated by a higher purpose. At stake was the fate of a nation.” Di Canio acquired tattoos honouring Mussolini on his back and right arm, and while playing for Lazio of Rome gave several on-field fascist salutes.
All this has now become a touch embarrassing. After Sunderland appointed Di Canio manager last Sunday, David Miliband, the UK’s former foreign secretary, resigned from the club’s board “in light of the new manager’s past political statements”. Britons have long debated racial issues through football, and The Sun printed a Di Canio salute over its front page.
There is confusion because Di Canio’s fascism means different things in three different contexts: in the UK, in Italian politics and in 1970s Rome where he grew up.
In Britain, politicians subscribe to two basic propositions: fascism and racism are terrible; and immigration is terrible. When the singer Billy Bragg said, “well, I’ve got a message for you, Mr Di Canio: all you fascists are bound to lose”, no one was going to disagree. In the UK, opposing fascism is a no-lose proposition, like opposing cannibalism.
It’s different in Italy. Probably no other European country, perhaps not even the US, is so polarised between right and left. Much of the Italian squabble is over fascism. John Foot, professor of modern Italian history at University College London and an authority on Italian football, says: “The idea that Mussolini was basically OK until the anti-semitic laws in 1938 has quite a wide political constituency in Italy.”
In today’s Italian culture wars, rightwingers often affirm their folksy anticommunist credentials by praising Mussolini. Silvio Berlusconi, speaking at a ceremony on Holocaust Memorial day this January for Jews killed by the Nazis, said that despite the regrettable racial laws, Mussolini “in so many other ways did well”. Gianfranco Fini, Mr Berlusconi’s former deputy prime minister, once named Mussolini as the “greatest statesman of the century” (before disowning the view years later). During this winter’s election campaign, comedian-turned-politician Beppe Grillo flirted with the fascist-inspired “CasaPound” movement. Di Canio’s view of Mussolini as “basically a very principled, ethical individual” seems ordinary in this company.
Yet the footballer’s beliefs go beyond Italy’s mainstream right. Clearly he is a fascist, albeit a fascist in the sense the word had in the Rome of his childhood.
Italy in the 1970s was consumed by far-left and far-right violence. Prof Foot says: “People were getting killed for their beliefs because they were walking down the street with the wrong newspaper under their arm.” Di Canio was a hardcore fan of Lazio, and like most hardcore Lazio fans chose the far-right option. Many of them scarcely distinguished between the words “fascist” and “Lazio fan”. Football symbols were more meaningful than political symbols. Some would not have recognised a real fascist if one had tortured them in a prison cell. Fascism for them was a badge of local macho belonging, like a gang tattoo. Within Roman fan culture, Di Canio’s salutes (to the saluting fans) meant: “I love Lazio, just like you.”
Still, he understood he was using historical fascist symbols. Challenged on this, he once responded: “I’m a fascist, not a racist.” Given fascist Italy’s anti-semitic laws, colonial massacres in Africa and axis with Adolf Hitler, that may appear a hairsplitting distinction. Grumbling about Italian politicians in 2002, he said: “With Mussolini I’m sure we would have had a better situation,” but added that he wasn’t a fascist. This isn’t a coherent political philosophy. It’s just ugly.
Now he is pretending it never happened. He began this week insisting his statements about fascism had been misquoted (including in his autobiography?). He said some of his best friends were black. However, on Wednesday, he said: “I do not support the ideology of fascism.” Prof Foot says: “I would have respected him more if he’d said, ‘I am a fascist’. But he ducked it. It was very unhardmanish.”
Di Canio’s spinning is strangely reminiscent of Woody Allen’s sketch Remembering Needleman, a mock defence of a fictional Jewish philosopher who briefly supported Nazism. “It is easy to criticise his position on Hitler at first,” Allen writes, “but one must take into account his own philosophical writings ... Needleman’s intellectual integrity convinced him that he didn’t exist, his friends didn’t exist and the only thing that was real was his IOU to the bank for 6m marks. Hence, he was charmed by the National Socialist’s philosophy of power, or as Needleman put it, ‘I have the kind of eyes that are set off by a brown shirt’.”
Di Canio’s political thought is about as sensible as Needleman’s. Thankfully this fascist sympathiser is just a harmless football manager rather than, say, a leading politician in a troubled European country.
Charlie Darwin
07/04/2013, 11:59 AM
That more or less hits it on the head. I don't think anyone seriously believes Di Canio is a racist, but he lived outside of England long enough to understand what he was doing, and now he's trying to forget it ever happened.
DannyInvincible
07/04/2013, 2:52 PM
Whatever about the offensive potential of Di Canio's politics, have you seen his jumper-tie combo today?!
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/dicanio_zps70c1edd4.png
tricky_colour
07/04/2013, 3:35 PM
At the risk of dragging the thread away from discussing Nazi theory, Jame McClean started on the bench today
he came on at about 70 mins, Sunderland had been a goal up before than but then went a goal down before
McClean came on.
James has not had much luck so far, not setting the Thames on fire, the right back or whatever is coping well
with him. Sill another 14 mins+ left.
Former Chelsea striker Clive Allen at Stamford Bridge: "I think McClean made a massive impact when he first burst onto the scene but one or two people have worked him out this season. He's a good attacking player and if anyone can get him going again then I'm sure Di Canio can."
horton
07/04/2013, 5:09 PM
Has his court case been sorted yet or is that still pending?
Former Chelsea striker Clive Allen at Stamford Bridge: "I think McClean made a massive impact when he first burst onto the scene but one or two people have worked him out this season. He's a good attacking player and if anyone can get him going again then I'm sure Di Canio can."
Thats fair enough. Alot of players struggle in their second season, just look at Seamus Coleman. But he has managed to turn it around, learn from it and is now one of the very best RBs in the PL.
McClean would some guidance and support could do the same. For me, his performances for Ireland have steadily improved, despite his relatively poor form at club level this year.
peadar1987
09/04/2013, 11:51 AM
My God Stutts you must hate Ayn Rand. ;)
I find it supremely ironic and satisfying that she spent the last few years of her life claiming benefits from the government.
Stuttgart88
09/04/2013, 1:05 PM
Most of these extreme libertarian thinkers have never even worked for the private sector. Some colleagues here in London were asking if Maggie'd have a state funeral. I joked that surely it should be provided by the private sector with a public procurement process to provide security among private providers?
BonnieShels
09/04/2013, 1:40 PM
Most of these extreme libertarian thinkers have never even worked for the private sector. Some colleagues here in London were asking if Maggie'd have a state funeral. I joked that surely it should be provided by the private sector with a public procurement process to provide security among private providers?
This is the smuggest joke ever. I applaud thee.
paul_oshea
09/04/2013, 2:36 PM
Most of these extreme libertarian thinkers have never even worked for the private sector. Some colleagues here in London were asking if Maggie'd have a state funeral. I joked that surely it should be provided by the private sector with a public procurement process to provide security among private providers?
Ken Loach got there before you, or maybe you know that ;)
Stuttgart88
09/04/2013, 2:52 PM
Maybe I am Ken Loach?
geysir
09/04/2013, 2:56 PM
You can't be, I'm Ken Loach.
You're Glenn Whelan
Stuttgart88
09/04/2013, 9:17 PM
I gave up being Glenn Whelan about ten games ago. If you outed me as Keith Andrews I'd start feeling twitchy.
gastric
10/04/2013, 7:58 AM
McClean won't be able to attend Maggie's funeral now, he'll be sad I imagine!
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/republic-of-ireland-star-mcclean-gets-driving-ban-29185846.html
DannyInvincible
10/04/2013, 9:11 AM
McClean won't be able to attend Maggie's funeral now, he'll be sad I imagine!
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/republic-of-ireland-star-mcclean-gets-driving-ban-29185846.html
Was he caught speeding in his Kia Provo or just with his provo licence?
TrapAPony
14/04/2013, 10:34 AM
Starting v Newcastle
geysir
14/04/2013, 11:43 AM
An assist for McClean. Paola erupts.
ArdeeBhoy
14/04/2013, 12:53 PM
Shame it gives the Italian fascist any credit.
paul_oshea
14/04/2013, 1:24 PM
An assist for McClean. Paola erupts.
when did he have the sex op and the nationality change?
geysir
14/04/2013, 3:34 PM
when did he have the sex op and the nationality change?
??
A. You woke up the computer, hit the keyboard at random, made a few grammatical interventions and pressed send?
or
B. You spent last night under Charing Cross Bridge (again) and what we read in this post is a flashback of a conversation you had with your pavement neighbour?
paul_oshea
15/04/2013, 10:01 AM
Read again your post. Paola is spanish. Paola is the Spanish of Paula. Generally male/female proceeded by "a" or "o". ; ) You're welcome.
geysir
15/04/2013, 10:06 AM
Read again your post. Paola is spanish. Paola is the Spanish of Paula. Generally male/female proceeded by "a" or "o". ; ) You're welcome.
I see your condition was worse than I previously thought. :)
Crosby87
15/04/2013, 11:32 AM
If we make the World Cup you two need to call a truce and watch each others backs in Brazil. People already getting smoked just going to test events at the stadia. I would hate to have to assign Nigel Harps to either one of you as body double.
http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/world/story/two-fans-killed-before-test-event-at-world-cup-stadium-041413
paul_oshea
15/04/2013, 11:40 AM
Don't worry Crosby there is no chance of that happening.
We won't qualify for the World Cup or the qualifiers. :( :D
Stuttgart88
15/04/2013, 1:04 PM
My mate's Italian wife Paola might disagree with you Paul.
paul_oshea
15/04/2013, 1:15 PM
What that its spanish or the gender - id imagine not the gender considering wifey is a "she" :)
Pabla/Paola is paula.
Pablo/Paolo would be the paul.
But Paola unlike pablo crosses the divide.
tricky_colour
16/04/2013, 2:01 AM
So how does Keano fit into all of this?
Or indeed Kinsella?
So how does Keano fit into all of this?
Or indeed Kinsella?
Or pauloshea?
DannyInvincible
22/04/2013, 9:11 AM
Was very pleasing to see James start again and play the full 90 minutes for Di Canio at the weekend. Obviously, Di Canio rates him/has him in his plans. How did he play?
geysir
22/04/2013, 10:06 AM
Defensively he was good, just so so on the offensive. I think Di Canio appreciates his grit in these trying times.
Was very pleasing to see James start again and play the full 90 minutes for Di Canio at the weekend. Obviously, Di Canio rates him/has him in his plans. How did he play?
Di Canio singled him out during the post match interview:
"Look at James McClean. He has to understand that he's a very lucky guy. He probably deserves what he has got, but he is also very lucky to have the position he has and he has to work hard during training sessions and play with team-mates and forget about playing on his own. He made a fantastic performance, but sometimes he does tippy-tappy for showmanship. And also sometimes in training sessions, for one and a half or two hours, it's important to show those habits of passion, dedication and desire. The desire to suffer."
Sounds like Di Canio thinks McClean is a bit of a lazy git and is a bit lucky that there's not much competition for his position.
DannyInvincible
22/04/2013, 10:51 AM
Strange. I don't think McClean has ever been thought of as lazy before. If anything, his determination has been commended by previous managers under whom he's played. Stephen Kenny always had great things to say about his driven nature; in fact, he was warned not to over-train when at Derry.
Crosby87
22/04/2013, 11:28 AM
I didn't get that from the comments. i think he was just saying he needs to focus more in training. Young players probably get bored at times.
Or else he will hang him upside down in the town square along side his mistress.
geysir
22/04/2013, 12:18 PM
Strange. I don't think McClean has ever been thought of as lazy before. If anything, his determination has been commended by previous managers under whom he's played. Stephen Kenny always had great things to say about his driven nature; in fact, he was warned not to over-train when at Derry.
I wouldn't take Di Canio's comments so literally.
He's coming into a relegation threatened team, naturally everybody has to work harder. Di Canio has to squeeze them. Probably if asked about any player he would say similar, 'he's good but he has to do better'.
If Di Canio wasn't satiisfied with McClean's efforts he would have taken him off in the latter part of the game.
Charlie Darwin
22/04/2013, 12:28 PM
I'm sure there's a joke in there about needing to work harder on the right wing, but I won't be the one to make it. To the Daily Mail!
geysir
22/04/2013, 3:07 PM
Except that James is a left winger. Di Canio is a hard taskmaster when it comes to a left winger prancing down the wing doing tippy-tappy.
I note that James hasn't been sent over for a stint on the other side, since the Di Canio coup.
IsMiseSean
22/04/2013, 3:25 PM
James back on twitter just in time for the England game... :rolleyes:
IsMiseSean
22/04/2013, 3:28 PM
*Edit* He's gone again, made to delete another account apparently...
DannyInvincible
22/04/2013, 3:34 PM
Spotted that last night, but can't appear to find his account now. A short-lived revival...
It's his 24th birthday today, by the way.
geysir
22/04/2013, 4:00 PM
Spotted that last night, but can't appear to find his account now. A short-lived revival...
It's his 24th birthday today, by the way.
He probably came on briefly to update his twitter name.
How do you spot these things? stare at a screen 24/7?
paul_oshea
22/04/2013, 4:07 PM
Its whats called an Event based system geysir. Or a publish/subscribe(MV) in this case to be more precise.
So when a user publishes something or becomes active again a message is sent to the subscribers, in this case the written tweet.
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