James McClean M Wrexham b.1989

[paul_oshea]

Context, DI. Context.

[youngirish]

As an Irishman living in England I find this British mentality regarding their military to be still firmly rooted in Victorian times when their armed forces were the prime means of achieving their expansionist goals. This attitude that they fought to preserve our freedom and thus deserve our deep appreciation and gratitude is all well and good but it belies the fact that they have far more often than not been used throughout the world as an instrument of oppression and imperialistic expansionism than to protect any particular nation's freedom. As an Irish person they certainly have never fought for my freedom but have more often than not been used to oppress the likes of me. I've met many young lads who have served for the British armed forces and to me they often appear to be fairly simple and often misguided young men, maybe worthy of pity but not of any great respect - blowing up poverty stricken tribal people from 3 miles up in the air is certainly something that deserves none of my respect. Let's put it like this - none of them are going to solve the nuclear fusion input to output ratio energy problem anytime soon.

The exception to the rule is World War 2 where they did fight against an oppressive and dangerous regime. However so did Stalin and his politburo. World War 1 was simply the result of an unchecked military build up with Germany. There was no right or wrong and Britain certainly were not fighting for anybody's freedom (Belgium included) they were fighting to check Germany's growth which posed a danger to their great Empire under which they themselves were oppressing hundreds of millions of Indians, Australian Aborigines, Zulus, Bantus, Irish, Chinese - the list is endless. Their other wars over the past century or so - Iraq, Afghanistan, Suez, the Boer War, the Anglo Zulu wars, the Anglo Irish war have been wars of oppression and expansion and not wars to extend people's freedoms by any historical analysis.

To sum up it's the 21st century isn't it about time Britain ditched this Victorian Imperialistic tripe praising their great armed forces and replace it with something more deserving - a remembrance day for people who went out to Africa to dig wells for starving children for example. Much more worthy of my respect than some naive teenager with an SA-80 in one hand and a hard on in the other.

If James McClean doesn't want to wear a poppy then fair play to him. He has that right to do so today whereas the British military may well have been used to whip him into submission if he refused to do so 100 years ago. That's progress.

[peadar1987]

Good post youngirish, but that said, although the British Army has generally been used to further the agenda of those in power in Britain, be that securing resources, making money, or getting reelected, the people who join often do out of a sense of loyalty and duty. If someone sincerely believes that the British army is needed in Afghanistan, that they can make a real difference, that they can help to bring much-needed stability and peace to the region, and they get blown up by an IED, I still respect them for that.

[Wolfman]

Except they can't and won't win any campaign in Afghanistan. Both the Russians and US left without winning. The British won't be any different.

As YI says it would be much better if they and all the countries in WW1 and 2 all concentrated on humanitarian efforts rather than pointless poppies.

[youngirish]

Good post youngirish, but that said, although the British Army has generally been used to further the agenda of those in power in Britain, be that securing resources, making money, or getting reelected, the people who join often do out of a sense of loyalty and duty. If someone sincerely believes that the British army is needed in Afghanistan, that they can make a real difference, that they can help to bring much-needed stability and peace to the region, and they get blown up by an IED, I still respect them for that.

Fair point Peader but I'd imagine most of the rank and file of the SS truly believed they were protecting and indeed promoting the well being of Germany during World War 2. Few would have seen themselves as the fanatical and aggressive threat they undoubtedly were. If young lads are stupid enough to believe they are protecting one of the most powerful countries in the world from danger by fighting Pashtun tribesmen in the remote hills of Afghanistan whos way of life has changed little in hundreds of years then I'm not sure they deserve much respect. Pity perhaps but not respect and far less pity than the innocents caught up in the fighting. This poppy thing will be ditched by the British in time anyway. Most young people here think of it in similar means as I do a leftover of a bygone age best consigned to the past - it's the crusty nosed toffs in the establishment that keep these ideas alive but fortunately most of these will be dead in the next few decades anyway.

[A N Mouse]

Are we starting all over again Danny?

I'm not in the public eye, haven't gone against the rest of my team and haven't been involved in highly publicized, politically sensitive, Internet arguments.

Thank you and SolitudeRed for the education. It's a symbol that has been hijacked by loyalism and British nationalist institutions. Didn't know that. Would have saved a lot of hassle for someone to just have explained it early on without me having to ask the question.

But either he had the choice, same as yourself, or he didn't.

Others have supplied the context - he was in a no win situation. He chose principles - no matter how misguided some may view them - over expedience.

[Spudulika]

Except they can't and won't win any campaign in Afghanistan. Both the Russians and US left without winning. The British won't be any different.

As YI says it would be much better if they and all the countries in WW1 and 2 all concentrated on humanitarian efforts rather than pointless poppies.

The British were beaten before also, when they were ruling the world.

[geysir]

But either he had the choice, same as yourself, or he didn't.

Others have supplied the context - he was in a no win situation. He chose principles - no matter how misguided some may view them - over expedience.

Nah, some people think he's too dumb to have principles:rolleyes:
Otherwise, if James is supposed to be a likeness to his caricature, then where does that leave his detractors, if it does turn out to be that a brainless twerp like James has principles, in a situation where his detractors wouldn't have 1% of the courage it would take to stand up for that principal.

One can go around in circles, meandering about this and that, but essentially one has to appreciate that it was a principal for him and it took guts. Unless you have stood up for something, alone, against the grain, in a cesspit of opposition, then I'd suggest the opinion of the detractor is less than worthless.

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=SkStu;1642840]A
It's a symbol that has been hijacked by loyalism and British nationalist institutions. Didn't know that.QUOTE]

It hasn't.

Millions of people, throughout the World, with no connection to "loyalism" and "British nationalist institutions" (whatever they are?) wear a Poppy with pride.

That's like me saying the noble National Flag of the Republic Of Ireland has been hijacked by Republican terrorists and criminal gangs, such as those who slaughtered Mr Black only a couple of weeks ago.

The Poppy is there as a symbol of Remembrance for those that choose to donate to the Poppy Appeals - nobody should be forced to wear one. Please don't attempt to besmirch those of us who choose to wear one on account of "loyalism" "hijacking" it. I am Loyal to my Queen and Nation - that does not make me an intolerant bigot.

[Not Brazil]

If young lads are stupid enough to believe they are protecting one of the most powerful countries in the world from danger by fighting Pashtun tribesmen in the remote hills of Afghanistan whos way of life has changed little in hundreds of years then I'm not sure they deserve much respect.

I thought and prayed yesterday for the family and friends of Channing Day, a brave young women from Comber, Co Down who was laid to rest last week having paid the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan, unselfishly doing a job she loved. I have nothing but the utmost respect for her. Whether I believe she should have had to serve in Afghanistan is irrelevant. I don't need to support the War, to respect and remember those that give their lives through service in my Nation's Armed Forces.

I also respect your right to think differently.

I do believe that your fanciful notion that Citizens of the United Kingdom will ever forget the sacrifices of our Fallen is mere wishful thinking. They will never be forgotten. Not ever.

[The Fly]

I am Loyal to my Queen and Nation - that does not make me an intolerant bigot.

I thought the war ended such Edwardian sentiments? :p

[Not Brazil]

As YI says it would be much better if they and all the countries in WW1 and 2 all concentrated on humanitarian efforts rather than pointless poppies.

It is your absolute right to consider Poppies "pointless".

However, I can assure you that millions of people throughout the World do not consider them pointless. Poignant possibly, but far from piontless.

All the "Brit Bashing" in the world will not stop millions wearing their Poppy in proud and solemn remembrance of The Fallen.

[Not Brazil]

I thought the war ended such Edwardian sentiments? :p

Not at all Mr Fly - it will only change when we have a King.:o

[The Fly]

Not at all Mr Fly - it will only change when we have a King.:o

Do you have misgivings surrounding Charles' accession to the throne?

[Not Brazil]

Do you have misgivings surrounding Charles' accession to the throne?

Not at all - my loyalty will then be to King and Nation, not Queen and Nation.

[The Fly]

I suspected that was what you meant, but I thought I'd stir the pot anyway.

Are you happy with the future Queen Consort as well?

[ArdeeBhoy]

A
It's a symbol that has been hijacked by loyalism and British nationalist institutions. Didn't know that.

It hasn't.

Except it has been. See Solitude's post as a very small example. And the far right in Britain enthusiastically embrace Remembrance Day and associated symbols annually....
eg. http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/2327/45-years-of-disgrace

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/news/general/legion-statement-on-donations-from-political-parties


Millions of people, throughout the World, with no connection to "loyalism" and "British nationalist institutions" (whatever they are?) wear a Poppy with pride.
Ok, so there are some in Canada, but be amazed if it runs to 'millions' more...


That's like me saying the noble National Flag of the Republic Of Ireland has been hijacked by Republican terrorists and criminal gangs, such as those who slaughtered Mr Black only a couple of weeks ago.
A curious association to make.


I thought and prayed yesterday for the family and friends of Channing Day, a brave young women from Comber, Co Down who was laid to rest last week having paid the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan, unselfishly doing a job she loved. I have nothing but the utmost respect for her. Whether I believe she should have had to serve in Afghanistan is irrelevant. I don't need to support the War, to respect and remember those that give their lives through service in my Nation's Armed Forces.

Sad that people are dying, but there's limited point in such pride when the whole conflict is so pointless.
My sympathy though is far more with the people who've been invaded.


I do believe that your fanciful notion that Citizens of the United Kingdom will ever forget the sacrifices of our Fallen is mere wishful thinking. They will never be forgotten. Not ever.

Except that plenty of British people of my acquaintance (and not), beyond the suffering both inflicted or received, don't care for their armed forces at all. And would have no great appreciation of 'our fallen' since 1945, which sounds antiquated at best.


However, I can assure you that millions of people throughout the World do not consider them pointless. Poignant possibly, but far from piontless.

All the "Brit Bashing" in the world will not stop millions wearing their Poppy in proud and solemn remembrance of The Fallen.
And I can assure many British people will no longer buy poppies as they don't want to be associated with illegal wars or the far-right, as per above...
Guessing this figure too, would also run into 'millions'...

[Sullivinho]

Do you have misgivings surrounding Charles' accession to the throne?

Ah he's hardly at an age yet where anyone has to worry about him making the upstairs loo in time.

...

Apologies, I thought you said ascension. Carry on.

[youngirish]

I thought and prayed yesterday for the family and friends of Channing Day, a brave young women from Comber, Co Down who was laid to rest last week having paid the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan, unselfishly doing a job she loved. I have nothing but the utmost respect for her. Whether I believe she should have had to serve in Afghanistan is irrelevant. I don't need to support the War, to respect and remember those that give their lives through service in my Nation's Armed Forces.

I also respect your right to think differently.

I do believe that your fanciful notion that Citizens of the United Kingdom will ever forget the sacrifices of our Fallen is mere wishful thinking. They will never be forgotten. Not ever.
How many prayers have you said for the countless women and children who have been caught up and killed in the fighting in the country the armed forces that you and she supported are occupying? People who were already desperately impoverished and vulnerable before they got caught up in yet another war, the third such major conflict Afghanistan has been involved in in the last 30 years. Did you have a remembrance day for them?

Its people like you and your ridiculous patriotic nonsense that allow these politicians to send these young, misguided individuals to these countries on the pretext of protecting their nation from some unseen, unquantifiable danger. The call of people to arms for many centuries. As Herman Goering said in Nuremberg "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

What job did she love? Invading third world countries under a false pretext? Propping up corrupt puppet regimes? Stealing those countries natural resources where available?

If these misguided souls weren't willing to go to these countries in the first place there would be no such invasions. In the many wars that Britain have been involved in over the last 150 years, totaling up all the people their armed forces have killed, how many were in reality a threat to the average British person's way of life? The Nazis are the only ones I can think of in all that time. The Falklands could possibly also be justified as a measured defence against a foreign aggressor to British territory but these are the exceptions to the rule in the two dozen or so wars fought by the British in that time.

As mentioned earlier they deserve neither my respect nor remembrance. If you go to prop up corrupt regimes in other people's countries whilst also working to expand your own countries national interests then you are by all means choosing to put yourself in the line of fire. I'll reserve my respect and remembrance for the civilians caught in the crossfire and the red cross workers trying to help the most vulnerable people in such scenarios. Not the instruments of war and oppression.

Regarding your last point, you my friend existing in that bubble of reality called Northern Ireland are a dinosaur of a bygone age. The average English person where I live in the South East who's considerably less than pensionable age has no great vested interest in remembrance day or the current plight of their armed forces. They have similar opinions to me on the matter than you which will come as no great surprise to anyone who's lived over here.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well said YI. War is normally a pointless diversion from other more serious domestic issues.

At no time since 1945 have Britain or the US been under direct threat within their own domestic territory in any conflict.

[The Fly]

Except it has been. See Solitude's post as a very small example. And the far right in Britain enthusiastically embrace Remembrance Day and associated symbols annually....
eg. http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/2327/45-years-of-disgrace

Of course it hasn't been hijacked by the far-right. Come on AB.



Do they really? Out of curiosity, who outside Britain?

See Skstu's posts earlier. It is worn widely in Canada, for example.


-------------------


I think it's time for this whole discussion to be continued in a new thread in the current affairs section.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hope Not Hate would beg to differ. If people must wear poppies, why not the white ones?

And Canada, yes. But who else? On any widespread scale?

I prefer what Robert Fisk says.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

[SkStu]

Australia, NZ and Northern Ireland.

[SkStu]

Just doing a bit of research (er Wikipedia) and I'm going to be wearing the purple poppy next year.

[The Fly]

Hope Not Hate would beg to differ. If people must wear poppies, why not the white ones?

I wouldn't be averse to wearing the white poppy.



And Canada, yes. But who else? On any widespread scale?


I imagine it's worn in many of the former and current Commonwealth countries. I couldn't really comment as to the scale of its use though.

Perhaps some of our posters in the land down under can help?

[Not Brazil]

Of course it hasn't been hijacked by the far-right. Come on AB.

See Skstu's posts earlier. It is worn widely in Canada, for example.

Don't worry about AB Mr Fly - let him display his ignorance until his heart is content.

Suffice to say, the far right haven't "hijacked" anything from me. They never will. Those from Right, Left and Centre in politics wear the Poppy with Pride.

It's worn by millions throughout The Commonwealth in proud Remembrance.

The Fallen will never be forgotten, no matter how much "Brit Bashers" wish it would not be so.

[ArdeeBhoy]

What ignorance?
You mean you don't agree...
;)

[The Fly]

Just found this online - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-10/brits-protest-poppy-pressure/4365180

[ArdeeBhoy]

Anyway, people should make up their own minds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_poppy

Nothing to do with "Brit Bashing". After all many of their own citizens don't agree, for the reasons cited. Good on them.

[tetsujin1979]

so, we're in agreement then
his second season has been poor, mainly due to the high standards from the impact he made after breaking into the first team

[Not Brazil]

Are you happy with the future Queen Consort as well?

I'm not unhappy about it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That 'difficult second season'.

Starting to think MO'N has started to lose the plot a wee bit too...

[The Fly]

I'm not unhappy about it.

Now that's loyalism. ;)

[Not Brazil]

Regarding your last point, you my friend existing in that bubble of reality called Northern Ireland are a dinosaur of a bygone age. The average English person where I live in the South East who's considerably less than pensionable age has no great vested interest in remembrance day or the current plight of their armed forces. They have similar opinions to me on the matter than you which will come as no great surprise to anyone who's lived over here.

I am no dinosaur, my friend. That I respect the sacrifices and bravery of our Armed Forces, and uphold your right (and that of anyone else, including young McClean) who chooses to think differently on that issue, does not me a dinasaur make.

If you think, based on your "average English person" (whatever that means?) survey, that the United Kingdom will ever forget The Fallen, you are sadly deluded.

In villages, towns and Cities throughout the South East Of England (and elsewhere in the United Kingdom and further afield) , people will be wearing Poppies in proud Remembrance of The Fallen until well after you and me are dust.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Another take.
http://www.wsc.co.uk/forum-index/28-world/731516-help-for-heroes

See if you can spot the occasional foot.ie poster...

And an apt reflection on the poppy hype.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2012/nov/13/remembrance-day-burning-poppy-cartoon

And a good piece.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/125980

[peadar1987]

Fair point Peader but I'd imagine most of the rank and file of the SS truly believed they were protecting and indeed promoting the well being of Germany during World War 2. Few would have seen themselves as the fanatical and aggressive threat they undoubtedly were. If young lads are stupid enough to believe they are protecting one of the most powerful countries in the world from danger by fighting Pashtun tribesmen in the remote hills of Afghanistan whos way of life has changed little in hundreds of years then I'm not sure they deserve much respect. Pity perhaps but not respect and far less pity than the innocents caught up in the fighting. This poppy thing will be ditched by the British in time anyway. Most young people here think of it in similar means as I do a leftover of a bygone age best consigned to the past - it's the crusty nosed toffs in the establishment that keep these ideas alive but fortunately most of these will be dead in the next few decades anyway.

Swerving wildly off topic here, but I had a good discussion with someone about this the other day. We were talking about the Aztecs, and how immoral human sacrifice was. I sort of reckon if you were an Aztec priest who sincerely believed the sun god was going to make the crops fail, and therefore reluctantly cut the hearts out of peoples' chests, you can't really be considered a bad person. Morals is a really, really complicated issue though. Not really one for a James McClean thread!

[Not Brazil]

We were talking about the Aztecs, and how immoral human sacrifice was.

I was talking to some pals on Saturday about the ANZACS - their sacrifices will always be remembered and respected by those of us who appreciate their enormous contribution to victory in the Great War.

[youngirish]

I was talking to some pals on Saturday about the ANZACS - their sacrifices will always be remembered and respected by those of us who appreciate their enormous contribution to victory in the Great War.

Yes the mindless meat grinder of human flesh that was the Great War. It achieved the enviable goal of amplifying the hatred and bitterness that had existed beforehand and helped pave the way for an even greater war 21 years later. Such noble sacrifice indeed to jump out of a trench into a hail of machine gun bullets at the command of some inbred, aristocratic, idiotic officer with little or no actual combat experience miles behind the lines who achieved his commission because his daddy played cricket on Sunday afternoons with the Prime minister's cousin. Yes that same top brass drawn from the upper echelons of British society who had declared war on Germany in the first place to protect their own vested interests.

What's it like living in 1895? You have about the same understanding of these topics as the average Victorian gnat. Do you ever actually question this tripe you've been spoonfed from birth and tried to formulate anything resembling an opinion of your own on these matters or would that be too much to ask?

For my part I have no interest in Brit bashing. My son is English and most of my friends are English. My objections are noted in quite a fair bit of detail above and centre around the whole ridiculousness of placing people who essentially are trained to kill other people on some sort of pedestal in 21st century society. Its comical to some degree. The fact you don't get the joke makes it even more so.

[The Fly]

Yes the mindless meat grinder of human flesh that was the Great War. It achieved the enviable goal of amplifying the hatred and bitterness that had existed beforehand and helped pave the way for an even greater war 21 years later. Such noble sacrifice indeed to jump out of a trench into a hail of machine gun bullets at the command of some inbred, aristocratic, idiotic officer with little or no actual combat experience miles behind the lines who achieved his commission because his daddy played cricket on Sunday afternoons with the Prime minister's cousin. Yes that same top brass drawn from the upper echelons of British society who had declared war on Germany in the first place to protect their own vested interests.


What makes those massed ranks of young men particularly worthy of respect and remembrance, is that they were mainly conscripted into the horrors of WWI.

[youngirish]

Not true the majority of British soldiers killed in World War 1 were volunteers. Only after 1916 was conscription introduced. Nobody in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Falklands or any of the other conflicts that Britain have been involved in were conscripts with the exception of World War 2 so this is a fairly inconsequential argument.

[The Fly]

Not true the majority of British soldiers killed in World War 1 were volunteers. Only after 1916 was conscription introduced.

I was referring to the Allied forces as a whole.



Nobody in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Falklands or any of the other conflicts that Britain have been involved in were conscripts with the exception of World War 2 so this is a fairly inconsequential argument.

I know that. I haven't referred to Iraq, Afghanistan or any other conflict/war that Britain has been involved in post-WW2.

[gastric]

I was talking to some pals on Saturday about the ANZACS - their sacrifices will always be remembered and respected by those of us who appreciate their enormous contribution to victory in the Great War.

It is interesting you mention the ANZACs. At no point in any ceremony over here are the sacrifices of anyone outside of Oz and NZ mentioned or acknowledged. They really don't care about the 'Old Country' or any contribution made by anyone else.

And in an attempt to derail the poppy debate, James is auctioning his poppyless top, all proceeds to go to a local cancer ward. Ahh, isn't he wonderful!:) That or Sunderland have a good PR person.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2231801/James-McClean-auctions-poppyless-Sunderland-shirt-raise-cancer-hospital.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[bennocelt]

No, I don't wear one.

What don't I understand? That its majorly pro-Brit symbolism? If that's the case then just say it. I know that if it was majorly pro-Brit, it would probably **** me off hearing about it between bouts of Coronation Street and Eastenders. I actually don't have much of an opinion on the wearing or non-wearing of a poppy despite what the last few pages would suggest. And im all for personal choice in most circumstances. I just think that McCleans actions are a bit immature and self indulgent. He knows from his twitter abuse that this is easy pickings for those that want it to be and he just goes ahead and gives them what they want. We should be talking about his performances, not this sh!te.

I still don't understand what bennocelt was getting at.
Just that you seem to be dishing people who actually live and have friends and family in Britain from your lofty position in Canada........:)

[DannyInvincible]

Are we starting all over again Danny?

I'm not in the public eye, haven't gone against the rest of my team and haven't been involved in highly publicized, politically sensitive, Internet arguments.

Hypothetically-speaking, if you were in the public eye and the trend was to wear a poppy if you so wished, would you wear one, and what would be the reasoning behind your decision? Would it be a statement either way? (I won't suggest you might be involved in highly-publicised, politically-sensitive internet argument! :p)

[DannyInvincible]

It hasn't.

Millions of people, throughout the World, with no connection to "loyalism" and "British nationalist institutions" (whatever they are?) wear a Poppy with pride.

That's like me saying the noble National Flag of the Republic Of Ireland has been hijacked by Republican terrorists and criminal gangs, such as those who slaughtered Mr Black only a couple of weeks ago.

There are those north of the border who attach such meaning to the flag of Ireland and who would have trouble "respecting" it for vaguely similar reasons to why James McClean might have had trouble wearing a poppy. As I mentioned already, Sammy Morrow, a Protestant from Limavady, was the only player between the two sides - Derry and Bohs - who opted not to face the Irish tricolour whilst 'Amhrán na bhFiann' was being played before the 2008 FAI Cup final. Given his communal background, his stance may well have related to the (unnofficial) association of the tricolour with (militant) republicanism. Of course, he stood out like a sore thumb and it all looked a little awkward. Indeed, I recall some idiots getting all het up about it at the time, both in the stands and online after the game, but that was Morrow's own personal business; something that was entirely up to him and of none of their concern. Obviously, the tricolour possesses different connotations for Sammy Morrow to the meaning it holds for myself and many others who identify it as our national flag, but I wouldn't call him ignorant or an idiot because he might perceive it differently. It's unfortunate he sees it in a way it was unintended to be seen, but that's reality.

[youngirish]

The British were beaten before also, when they were ruling the world.

This is the British armies fourth war in Afghanistan in 170 years. None of the others achieved anything of lasting significance but considerable loss of life on both sides and the eventual withdrawal and/or defeat of the British. Why anyone thought it would be any different this time is beyond me. Talk about history repeating.

[Not Brazil]

It is interesting you mention the ANZACs. At no point in any ceremony over here are the sacrifices of anyone outside of Oz and NZ mentioned or acknowledged. They really don't care about the 'Old Country' or any contribution made by anyone else.


Maybe when your next in London you should visit The Cenotaph in Whitehall.

[paul_oshea]

I am no dinosaur, my friend. That I respect the sacrifices and bravery of our Armed Forces, and uphold your right (and that of anyone else, including young McClean) who chooses to think differently on that issue, does not me a dinasaur make.

If you think, based on your "average English person" (whatever that means?) survey, that the United Kingdom will ever forget The Fallen, you are sadly deluded.

In villages, towns and Cities throughout the South East Of England (and elsewhere in the United Kingdom and further afield) , people will be wearing Poppies in proud Remembrance of The Fallen until well after you and me are dust.

NB, just a little test, by an individual, and not to be used as a proper survey(less than ~1000 :D) but I've counted on the tube to work every morning how many of those around me are wearing poppies. Its notable by the serious lack of poppy wearing commuters. I would say about 1/5th for the last 10 days or so. There are poppy sellers at many tube stations, so plenty of opportunity, yet so few wear it ( even at work so few people wear them, and on the way to work - from tube to office- I don't see very many either).The demographic of the people is impossible to define, because it is so diverse, the only thing we have in common is we work in Canary Wharf. This is the changing face of Britain. You will have your strongholds in untouched country areas and pockets in the Home Counties.

I'm sure if you were working in MOD or GCHQ then you would see a huge reversal, but sadly these are the only places where its still observed with the patriotism that you believe in.

[youngirish]

NB, just a little test, by an individual, and not to be used as a proper survey(less than ~1000 :D) but I've counted on the tube to work every morning how many of those around me are wearing poppies. Its notable by the serious lack of poppy wearing commuters. I would say about 1/5th for the last 10 days or so. There are poppy sellers at many tube stations, so plenty of opportunity, yet so few wear it ( even at work so few people wear them, and on the way to work - from tube to office- I don't see very many either).The demographic of the people is impossible to define, because it is so diverse, the only thing we have in common is we work in Canary Wharf. This is the changing face of Britain. You will have your strongholds in untouched country areas and pockets in the Home Counties.

I'm sure if you were working in MOD or GCHQ then you would see a huge reversal, but sadly these are the only places where its still observed with the patriotism that you believe in.

Walking around Brighton for the past week or so I have yet to notice anyone wearing one.

[paul_oshea]

For my part I have no interest in Brit bashing. My son is English and most of my friends are English. My objections are noted in quite a fair bit of detail above and centre around the whole ridiculousness of placing people who essentially are trained to kill other people on some sort of pedestal in 21st century society. Its comical to some degree. The fact you don't get the joke makes it even more so.

Your son is English....no way YI!!!