View Full Version : James McClean M Wrexham b.1989
TheOneWhoKnocks
20/07/2015, 12:16 PM
James McClean's snub to England's flag was disgraceful - if he hates it so much, he should leave the Premier League
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/west-bromwich-albion/11750741/James-McCleans-snub-to-Englands-flag-was-disgraceful-if-he-hates-it-so-much-he-should-leave-the-Premier-League.html
Elsewhere, an article written in defense of McClean has vanished from Eurosport.
Charlie Darwin
20/07/2015, 12:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvG1vcyUP88
Not sure if it took a big deflection or not, but some goal from McClean last night. Something I haven't seen enough from him in England, cutting in and trying his luck from around the box as it was always a strength of his at Derry.
Eminence Grise
20/07/2015, 12:53 PM
James McClean's snub to England's flag was disgraceful - if he hates it so much, he should leave the Premier League
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/west-bromwich-albion/11750741/James-McCleans-snub-to-Englands-flag-was-disgraceful-if-he-hates-it-so-much-he-should-leave-the-Premier-League.html
Not unreasonable from the Torygraph. McClean has admirable principles, but he's a head the ball for doing this kind of thing. There are ways of dissenting without being offensive. I've been at formal events where there was a toast to the Queen - I'm Rossie bred but Manchester born so I don't have a problem with toasting her in her own country. At one I was beside a Scot, who liftedhis glass across the table so it passed over his water glass. Scots nationalists, he told me, from the time of Bonnie Prince Charlie toast the king across the water during the royal toast. Subtle.
McClean could have faced the flag, lowered and turned his head to one side and hummed Come Out Ye Black and Tans - and nobody would have been any the wiser. True to himself and point made, but with enough sublety for it to pass unremarked. To be honest, I'm losing a bit of patience with his unnecessarily provocative nationalism.
seanfhear
20/07/2015, 1:08 PM
Even if was Lionel Messi and behaving like this people would be getting fed up of it.
He ain't no Lionel Messi and had better produce some football to ever get another contract in English Football.
Charlie Darwin
20/07/2015, 1:11 PM
Even if was Lionel Messi and behaving like this people would be getting fed up of it.
He ain't no Lionel Messi and had better produce some football to ever get another contract in English Football.
He's been doing things like this for years and clubs keep giving him contracts, even though we're supposed to believe he's not very good at football. Whatever people think about his politics or whatever, his talent has got him where he is.
BonnieShels
20/07/2015, 2:10 PM
The arguments against him are making me more steadfast in my support of what he did.
The disconnect in that article is such that equating gerrard turning is back on the Stars and Stripes is the same thing as what McClean did.
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James McClean’s refusal to turn and face the English flag as the national anthem was sang ahead of West Bromwich Albion’s pre-season friendly in America was insulting, stupid and hypocritical.
Perhaps he should have turned. But would we have still had the same outcry if he kept his head bowed? Like hell we would have!
The equating of England and Britain is a subtle but important thing mentioned here.
It was an act of defiance that asks the question, if you do not like the British so much, because that is what your behaviour suggests, why have you spent the vast majority of your career living and working in England, the country at the heart of Britain’s 'colonial power'?
McClean was trying to make a political point and while I would defend everybody’s right to protest, as well as their freedom of expression, this was a disrespectful act that hints at something ugly in his views.
It was an act of defiance to an anthem which means so much more to some people than others. I even have a tough time bearing that dirge, imagine if I was from Derry?
Barely the majority eh? It just so happens that as an Irish soccer player it's the next rung on the ladder for him. He is lucky enough to be good enough to play there. If he wasn't he'd probably have moved to Scotland now or be back in the LOI. Simple really.
The ugly part of his views are that that song represents something wholly unacceptable in his eyes and he finds it difficult to stand there representing that song as it happens.
If Luke edwards suppports everybody's right to freedom of expression then surely there is no need for this article criticising him?
McClean's behaviour was designed to show he believes the British should get out of Northern Ireland.
Hardly designed and hardly unknown in any quarters what his views are.
He is free to hold those views, but in refusing to acknowledge the England flag while playing for a British/English team, which is supported by British/English people, while he plays alongside British/English teammates, McClean has gone too far. It was an insult.
He is free to hold those views. As so often he is told in October/November every year, "people have fought for those right".
Isn't the Telegraph one of the more vocal British members of the "No-one has a right to be offended brigade". Take yer oil.
I do not believe you should insult the flag of any country that you visit, let alone one that has welcomed you and one where you have made your home.
A country that has welcomed him? Isn't the Telgraph a Unionist rag? Surely he is no more welcomed than any citizen.
McClean does not believe he is British, which is fine.
Phew. I was worried there.
He elected to play for the Republic of Ireland rather than the North, which under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement is his right. I fully support him in that decision.
Danny, it's okay. We all see it too.
He has already made it clear where his allegiance lies and what his political views are. He refused to wear a poppy on his shirt because he felt it was a military symbol. Again, I supported him because I agree that, for all the positive connotations of the poppy, it can be perceived as a symbol commemorating those who have fought in armed conflicts for Britain, of which Northern Ireland is one.
Fair enough.
Yes, it commemorates those who have died on both sides of the conflict, but for McClean and many like him in Derry, it holds a different meaning. I was not one of those who argued he should have been forced to wear it. I respected his beliefs, and it was abhorrent that he was sent death threats because of it.
GSTQ can have the same weight as the Poppy.
However, to insult a nation’s flag and anthem is to insult a nation. And before anyone claims this makes me some sort of rabid nationalist, I would say the same thing about any national flag. I hate it when national anthems are booed in sport.
Maybe England could do with a new anthem so?
Imagine if Steven Gerrard refused to acknowledge the American flag while playing for LA Galaxy because he disapproved of American Imperialism and interference in global affairs?
Mon dieu. We all remember that SEALs raid on Whiston in the early 80s.
Imagine if any footballer playing abroad, from any country in the world, did what McClean did to the national flag of his host nation?
In case we forget, McClean lives and works in a country where the national flag is either the cross of St George or the Union flag and the national anthem is God Save the Queen. He is apparently more than happy to do so given he has played for three different English clubs - Sunderland, Wigan and now West Brom.
Imagine any footballer ever, coming from a city which was subject to some brutal assaults by its "own" armed forces.
Bar some Balkan or African situation I couldn't think of anything. It was hardly a "Boban moment".
If he finds the sight of the flag so abhorrent, why is he here?
Because this is where he works. And he has every right to be in his "own" State. I mean that's what the Telegraph would normally say about someone from Stroke City who has obvious Nationalist leanings.
If he hates the national anthem so much, if it stands for something he is so hostile to, why would he want to make his home in a country where his neighbours, friends and employers are loyal to that flag?
Can he not be friends with people ouotside of his "own-kind"? Surely the trick here is to understand "why" he finds the anthem and flag so ghastly? It wouldn't kill people to bone up on a wee bit of history.
I know plenty of people who are anti-Monarchy, but I do not know anyone who recoils at the sight of the England flag.
I doubt he had any issue with the George's Cross. GSTQ on the other hand.
The British and English flag means different things to different people.
They sure do.
To me they represent the NHS, a country that welcomes people of all religions, colours, faiths and creeds. It is a country that believes in democracy and freedom. It represents my country, despite all its faults, ills and blemishes.
And it is not James McClean's.
It is the national flag of the country that has welcomed McClean and he has insulted it to make a crude political point.
How charitable.
Interestingly, when the Republic of Ireland played England in an international friendly back in June, I don’t remember McClean refusing to face the flag while the English (and British) national anthem was played, which is the protocol for international matches at the Aviva Stadium.
Might it have been because he faced the Tricolour, ya know, his flag?
Quite rightly, England fans were repeatedly warned not to sing the stupid, ugly, insulting and out-dated “no surrender to the IRA” song ahead of that game. But for me, McClean’s behaviour is just as bad as the idiots who sing that confrontational chant in the name of patriotism.
The ability of English people doing the right thing fills me full of proud [sic].
McClean did not have to look up at the flag, he certainly did not have to sing the national anthem, just as the many other players from different nations in the WBA team did not, but he deliberately refused to turn and face it. He was deliberately disrespectful.
He might think otherwise. He might think it is disrespectful to force people to do things that make them uncomfortable and are out of sync with their beliefs.
Would he have done the same thing had Albion reached the FA Cup or Capital One Cup final, where the national anthem is played and the Union flag and English flags fly? Would he refuse to play in those games?
Who knows. Maybe we'll wait til he gets there with them.
McClean’s behaviour hints at someone who is not willing to move on, to forgive or forget.
It might be tough for some people to forgive and forget when they come from a place that was directly affected by the Troubles.
It points to someone who does not believe Northern Ireland’s troubles are over.
Yeah. Everything is hunky dory in the North alright.
The Twelfth passed without incident and all... :rolleyes:
It suggests he holds anti-British/English views, yet he pays vast amount of taxes in England as a result of his handsome living as a Premier League footballer that go towards the up-keep of, among other things, the British Armed forces.
It might suggest that. But that is to take it that his Nationalist views are purely black and white. I would wager like everyone ever, that there's a fair amount of subtlety and grey within.
He pays vasts amount of tax as a resident of a country. He has no control where that goes.
McClean will argue the Union flag is a symbol of oppression where he comes from...,
It is.
...but it was the England flag he refused to face in America.
Again, I would reckon GSTQ was where he was aiming his ire. I don't know for sure. But history suggests as much.
He will argue he was raised to believe the British national anthem belongs to an enemy...
Will he argue that?
[1/2]
TrapAPony
20/07/2015, 2:10 PM
God save our James McClean
Long live our James McClean
God save McClean
Send us victorious
His tricks are glorious
Long to score goals for us
God save McClean
BonnieShels
20/07/2015, 2:10 PM
...but does this sort of language have any place in modern Northern Ireland any more?
He's living in England at the minute anyway. And a modern "Northern Ireland"? Hmmmmmmm...
Is it the right sort of behaviour for a Premier League footballer to adopt?
Perhaps not. But being a role-model is not his job.
This is the language of the Sectarian troubles.
What is the language?
This is the language used before the Good Friday Agreement and power sharing in Northern Ireland.
Stormont, the bastion of good governance.
More importantly, McClean has insulted many of those who support West Bromwich Albion, as well as those who play for them. It was stupid.
I bet they wept into their pillows last night.
If McClean hates the national anthem so much, if he finds the flag so abhorrent, maybe he should go and play in a country where he does not have to listen to or see either.
Like Northern Ireland perhaps?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/west-bromwich-albion/11750741/James-McCleans-snub-to-Englands-flag-was-disgraceful-if-he-hates-it-so-much-he-should-leave-the-Premier-League.html
---
Flegory Campbell of course had a measured response...
"James McClean is a highly paid footballer playing in the English Premiership, so if he's going to continue behaving like this he needs to reconsider who he's playing for," Mr Campbell said.
"He should reconsider who his paymasters are or move elsewhere so there isn't a problem.
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"He needs to keep his head down and play football, but what he shouldn't do while earning money from the UK is set himself up as a controversial pseudo-political figure, which is what he's doing.
"If he didn't want to sing the national anthem I don't think anybody would have complained, but he should have had the courtesy and respect to simply stand there.
"It is time for his manager to take him in hand and have a word with him. It is only a few months until Remembrance Day and we'll have a problem with the poppy and McClean again."
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/james-mcclean-turns-his-back-for-national-anthem-igniting-calls-for-him-to-quit-english-football-31388031.html
---
This was the lead story on the Bellylaugh's website as well: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/hundreds-flock-to-belfast-for-fight-between-teenage-girls-31388767.html
There is no hope.
[2/2]
BonnieShels
20/07/2015, 2:11 PM
God save our James McClean
Long live our James McClean
God save McClean
Send us victorious
His tricks are glorious
Long to score goals for us
God save McClean
Stolen from Pure Derry?
TrapAPony
20/07/2015, 2:13 PM
Stolen from Pure Derry?
Nope. Just saw it today on breakingnews:D
BonnieShels
20/07/2015, 2:14 PM
Who probably stole it from Pure Derry.
Charlie Darwin
20/07/2015, 2:16 PM
I thought it was a West Brom fan who made it up. Might be wrong though.
BonnieShels
20/07/2015, 2:17 PM
I thought it was a West Brom fan who made it up. Might be wrong though.
It was, yeah.
But given I saw it on PD first and I would never give Breaking News, Joe, Balls or the Journal any credit so I had to make sure.
Crosby87
20/07/2015, 5:15 PM
James is a pea brain, insists at least one journalist.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/premier-league/stupid-and-insulting-english-journalist-slams-james-mcclean-for-anthem-snub-31390146.html
Charlie Darwin
20/07/2015, 5:22 PM
Oh for ****'s sake, an article about another article.
Crosby87
20/07/2015, 7:58 PM
What do you think about the WBA fans reactions chaps?
http://boards.footymad.net/forum.php?tno=550&fid=255&sty=2&act=1&mid=2109918336&page=1
SwanVsDalton
20/07/2015, 8:07 PM
This McClean thing has really driven me mad. Two thoughts:
a) He's an idiot. He shouldn't have done it. It's a facile 'protest' (if it could even be called that) and has pretty much no impact other than to bring his brain power once again into disrepute. If I was a West Brom fan, I'd be rightly furious.
b) Any variation of the argument that runs 'well if he hates Britain so much, why doesn't he just leave/why does he accept sterling wages?', as suggested by Ken Early et al, deserves to go in the bin. It's a complete nonsense.
This whole argument is a sad old infuriating state of affairs.
Context as ever, is important, and while I don't think McClean should've done it, the gesture is a curiously northern one (possibly north western one). People have mentioned Sammy Morrow already, who did the same before the FAI Cup final in 2008 (the same season McClean made his Derry debut).
Likewise some 'nationalist' players in the NI underage system (the system McClean emerged through) have done the same before internationals. Don't think these facts are coincidental.
Stuttgart88
20/07/2015, 9:13 PM
McClean's reaction can also be seen in the light of the rise of Islamic extremism in UK, the parallel being they are both part of a large set of disaffected minorities - albeit only one now seen as a very real threat to security. My point isn't that McClean is not justified in his beliefs but it is very insensitive to be publicly disrespectful of the English anthem or flag at the same time as the UK government is, rightly in my opinion, fighting a tough battle against a far more serious strand of disaffection and its protagonists' failure to connect with their country of residence / upbringing.
MeathDrog
20/07/2015, 11:23 PM
McClean's reaction can also be seen in the light of the rise of Islamic extremism in UK, the parallel being they are both part of a large set of disaffected minorities - albeit only one now seen as a very real threat to security. My point isn't that McClean is not justified in his beliefs but it is very insensitive to be publicly disrespectful of the English anthem or flag at the same time as the UK government is, rightly in my opinion, fighting a tough battle against a far more serious strand of disaffection and its protagonists' failure to connect with their country of residence / upbringing.
I think that's more of a fault of the British Government rather than the disengaged migrants themselves, but that's another topic altogether.
Crosby87
21/07/2015, 12:00 AM
Maybe James is really Mi6 and trying to throw said disaffected groups off....while spying on them from the pitch? Kind of like in the English Patient.
tricky_colour
21/07/2015, 1:14 AM
As Charleston is in a souther US State they should have played the confederate anthem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3UUS1kx5oE
Nice tune!
DannyInvincible
21/07/2015, 1:21 AM
Sweet Lord.
Thank God you responded to that before I saw it. You've saved me a suspension! :p
This McClean thing has really driven me mad. Two thoughts:
a) He's an idiot. He shouldn't have done it. It's a facile 'protest' (if it could even be called that) and has pretty much no impact other than to bring his brain power once again into disrepute. If I was a West Brom fan, I'd be rightly furious.
b) Any variation of the argument that runs 'well if he hates Britain so much, why doesn't he just leave/why does he accept sterling wages?', as suggested by Ken Early et al, deserves to go in the bin. It's a complete nonsense.
This whole argument is a sad old infuriating state of affairs.
Context as ever, is important, and while I don't think McClean should've done it, the gesture is a curiously northern one (possibly north western one). People have mentioned Sammy Morrow already, who did the same before the FAI Cup final in 2008 (the same season McClean made his Derry debut).
Likewise some 'nationalist' players in the NI underage system (the system McClean emerged through) have done the same before internationals. Don't think these facts are coincidental.
It's very much a northern thing, but obviously rooted in the heightened or loaded significance (and contentious nature) of various symbols to the communities in the north. Symbols represent the very essence of the (past-)conflicting or clashing identities. Whether he's right or wrong, I would imagine James felt that to exhibit deference to 'GSTQ' would be tantamount to an approval of a sentiment with which he is not comfortable or would be interpreted as a display of subservience to the ideology of unionism/loyalism. In this context, his reaction wasn't all that surprising. It's only natural that an Irish nationalist/republican would be instinctively reluctant to appear subservient to unionist/loyalist symbolism; in a general way, he was culturally responding or reacting, as an Irish nationalist/republican, to the perception of (him/his community) being imperiously told in recent history, "this is your flag/anthem, and you better revere it", and saying, "no it's not, so I'm going to opt out", a bit like what Paddy Barnes did at the Commonwealth Games (https://vine.co/v/M9uUdBbr9ZP), except not as vocally. Maybe that's indicative of a cultural or communal insecurity, or maybe it's just national pride and self-regard/respect; either way, I think it should be respected. What sort of society are we living in when people are being ordered to pay deference to particular symbols, or being asked to leave (in the mainstream media) for their alleged transgression?
Many may not agree with James' interpretation of such a spectacle (that being the playing of a national anthem and the displaying of a national flag), but different symbols have very different meanings for different people and, in the north, many symbols were once literally matters of life and death. No need to go into a full-on history lesson on how the actions of the British army in Derry and elsewhere might have coloured many inhabitants' pretty raw view of the British flag - or the "Butcher's Apron" as it was referred to, somewhat poetically I suppose, in darker days - but when you grow up seeing tattered Union flags flying from lamp-posts next to UVF flags and the like, it's difficult to erase such vivid and intimidating imagery from your mind. (Personally, I'm not sure I agree that observing such a spectacle would necessarily have to be interpreted as an expression of explicit or complete political approval of everything that might be historically associated with a flag, but I'm not in James' boots and I can see where he's coming from nevertheless.)
Players from nationalist backgrounds (not just those from the north-west; see Chris Baird from Rasharkin, Antrim and Niall McGinn from Dungannon below) have done the exact same thing when they've played for NI (at senior level) but there's been little fuss made over it, and that's how it should be:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKXW5gzWUAAaqf4.png
Likewise for Sammy Morrow; as a Protestant from Limavady, he was under no duty whatsoever to turn around and face the tricolour in 2008. No doubt, doing so would have made him feel culturally uncomfortable too. He didn't start booing, insulting or gesturing in protest; he just opted out like James did. And fair enough, I say. By the way, TheBoss suggested that a few Derry players didn't turn around to face the tricolour that day but I'm pretty sure Morrow was the only one because he stood out like a sore thumb, unless my memory fails me. I don't recall there being that much outrage though.
I've seen the video from the WBA game and James clearly looked to be in an uncomfortable situation as he realised what was about to commence, so probably thought quickly and did what he has long seen players from nationalist backgrounds do; he disengaged and opted out of observance.
I think it's just another tiresome pseudo-controversy, to be honest, and there's a great piece on it here: http://surrealfootball.com/post/124501199807/james-mcclean-should-be-respected-for-his
tricky_colour
21/07/2015, 1:41 AM
It was inter club not international, was stupid to play national anthems.
On the subject of National Anthems, it seems Scotland does not have one, but Wales does, and then interestingly England does not have a national anthem,
God Save the Q is the British national anthem.
So a bit strange that really, you would think there would be different anthems for GB, England Wales Scotland and NI, it's odd
to use GSTQ for both England and GB or UK or whatever.
Charlie Darwin
21/07/2015, 1:43 AM
None of them have official anthems because they're not states, so GSTQ is all their anthem. Scotland have Flower of Scotland and Wales Bread of Heaven, and NI seem to use Danny Boy in some situations.
DannyInvincible
21/07/2015, 1:44 AM
See Niall McGinn's comment here on the playing of 'GSTQ' for context: http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1619124&viewfull=1#post1619124
Just put your head down and try to get through it ... Just keep it down. I mean you have boys like Michael O'Connor and Sammy Clingan who are Catholic boys from Belfast and they just keep their heads really low so as not to make a scene but also to show that as Catholics they must be respected.
DannyInvincible
21/07/2015, 5:21 AM
Similar often happens when Arab Israelis line out for Israel. See Beram Kayal (number 7) below bowing his head and refraining from singing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWg4KKl8_fs
Right-wing commentators in Israel have often criticised (http://www.scotsman.com/news/world/hard-line-proposal-over-israeli-anthem-branded-outrageous-1-1952862) the Arab members of the team for their refusal to participate.
Adem Ljacić, an ethnic Bosniak Muslim, was also suspended by the Serbian association (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/may/28/serbia-adem-ljajic-suspended-spain-friendly) for having not sung the Serbian anthem before a game. Siniša Mihajlović had a policy that Serbian players should sing the anthem at the time and so Ljacić didn't play for Serbia again until Mihajlović was replaced (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adem_Ljaji%C4%87#International_career).
Olé Olé
21/07/2015, 8:45 AM
See Niall McGinn's comment here on the playing of 'GSTQ' for context: http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1619124&viewfull=1#post1619124
Just completely out of interest, why does Baird have his knees bent? If it were just a random stance of his it wouldn't have piqued my interest, but you can see McGinn's knees are bent somewhat also but just not as pronounced as Baird's. Or is it just completely coincidental?
I think McClean would have been best served just bowing his head like Baird and McGinn, don't you think? Almost turning his back on the flag comes across to me as ignorance, as opposed to deference. Maybe ignorance is too harsh a word but it's a more pronounced position than having just the head bowed.
Again, I'm filled with admiration for McClean. The outrage expressed by some is steeped in xenophobia, as far as I'm concerned and is oblivious to the fact that McClean isn't intentionally disrespecting England or his employers but that he is refusing to embrace a particular strand of English/British society (probably not the right word, culture? history?) and some of the messages this anthem carries.
What about this for a loaded verse:
O Lord our God arise
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall
Confound their politics
Frustrate their knavish tricks
On Thee our hopes we fix
God save us all
DannyInvincible
21/07/2015, 9:08 AM
Just completely out of interest, why does Baird have his knees bent? If it were just a random stance of his it wouldn't have piqued my interest, but you can see McGinn's knees are bent somewhat also but just not as pronounced as Baird's. Or is it just completely coincidental?
Maybe squatting out of awkwardness - it looks like textbook displacement - in the hope a hole in the ground will eat them up and save them from what must be a pretty excrutiating few minutes?
I think McClean would have been best served just bowing his head like Baird and McGinn, don't you think? Almost turning his back on the flag comes across to me as ignorance, as opposed to deference. Maybe ignorance is too harsh a word but it's a more pronounced position than having just the head bowed.
To be fair, he didn't quite turn his back on the flag. He returned to facing the main stand at a 45 degree angle from the flag, in line with how both teams had originally been standing.
GypsyBlackCat
21/07/2015, 9:25 AM
IMO, if Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley can work together in a joint power agreement and if McGuinness can shake the Queen's hand and Prince Charles can shake McGuinness hand, then James McClean can stand and pretend to look interested during GSTQ for 3 mins.
If he wants people to respect his politics and views he should show respect back. He didn't just insult the Crown and the British Empire, he insulted West Bromwich Albion Football Club. WBA are a English club, who have English fans, staff and players. His clubs name, Albion, is ancient Greek for Britain. It was two fingers in their direction. He was representing WBA, an English club in America, their club. He should have known that.
His club should sent him to one of those FA education course. It would do him no harm to visit Warrington and go to the Tim Parry Foundation Centre in the town. He would learn that it wasn't just Catholics and Republicans that lost loved ones. The Parry family lost their two sons during an IRA attack. Rather that being twisted and let hate consume them, they did the opposite. They set up a Peace Fund in the hope of uniting communities so their sons deaths weren't in vain and something good and positive came out of it.
McClean is in last chance saloon. His career at Sunderland nose dived with some terrible displays. He went to Wigan and hardly set the world alight. Now he's got a great chance at a good club, with a loyal fan base under a top class manager. He might just have blown it already?!
GypsyBlackCat
21/07/2015, 9:31 AM
He's been doing things like this for years and clubs keep giving him contracts, even though we're supposed to believe he's not very good at football. Whatever people think about his politics or whatever, his talent has got him where he is.
Sunderland, Wigan and West Brom.
It's hardly like Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal are tripping over themselves to sign him!
DannyInvincible
21/07/2015, 9:47 AM
So WBA are a good club or not then?
McClean is in last chance saloon. His career at Sunderland nose dived with some terrible displays. He went to Wigan and hardly set the world alight. Now he's got a great chance at a good club, with a loyal fan base under a top class manager. He might just have blown it already?!
He was voted Wigan's 'player of the season' last year and has moved from the Championship back into the Premiership; the very opposite of nose-diving.
GypsyBlackCat
21/07/2015, 10:02 AM
So WBA are a good club or not then?
He was voted Wigan's 'player of the season' last year and has moved from the Championship back into the Premiership; the very opposite of nose-diving.
West Brom are a good club. We a good history and tradition. A lot of WBA fans were disappointed with the signing as they felt he is a Championship player and won't improve the team. I have to agree. I seen enough of him in his second season at Sunderland. He gets the ball and runs at the defender then loses it. He'll keep doing it and doing it. I'm sorry if it upsets you but I don't think he's a good player.
Olé Olé
21/07/2015, 10:05 AM
Maybe squatting out of awkwardness - it looks like textbook displacement - in the hope a hole in the ground will eat them up and save them from what must be a pretty excrutiating few minutes?
True. It does look like terrible awkwardness. I was just wondering was there some other point behind it but perhaps it's just coincidental.
To be fair, he didn't quite turn his back on the flag. He returned to facing the main stand at a 45 degree angle from the flag, in line with how both teams had originally been standing.
Well, I mean he was out of sync with the direction everyone else had their bodies positioned towards. If you look at Baird and McGinn, they are facing the exact same direction as their teammates but bow their heads and it's a less pronounced gesture.
Olé Olé
21/07/2015, 10:10 AM
West Brom are a good club. We a good history and tradition. A lot of WBA fans were disappointed with the signing as they felt he is a Championship player and won't improve the team. I have to agree. I seen enough of him in his second season at Sunderland. He gets the ball and runs at the defender then loses it. He'll keep doing it and doing it. I'm sorry if it upsets you but I don't think he's a good player.
It's very easy to infer a consensus among WBA fans here. He was obviously very good at a poor Wigan side last season and I think he deserves a chance to prove himself again. Obviously, you're a big Sunderland supporter and you have previously stated that you were completely unimpressed with the behaviour of McClean in the run-up to his exit from your club but it appears to me as though this clouds you views on McClean a bit too frequently.
EDIT: Everyone can infer a consensus to back up their own views: http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2015/07/20/west-brom-fans-react-to-mccleans-performance-against-richmond-ki/
DannyInvincible
21/07/2015, 10:11 AM
West Brom are a good club. We a good history and tradition. A lot of WBA fans were disappointed with the signing as they felt he is a Championship player and won't improve the team. I have to agree. I seen enough of him in his second season at Sunderland. He gets the ball and runs at the defender then loses it. He'll keep doing it and doing it. I'm sorry if it upsets you but I don't think he's a good player.
It doesn't upset me. You just seemed to contradict yourself by calling WBA a good club before seemingly dismissing them in order to make the point that McClean is actually a poor player. Anyway, the vast majority of Wigan fans and at least one Premier League manager appears to disagree with your position with regard to his abilities. Make of that what you will.
And I don't see reason to interpret what he did as an intended insult rooted in hate. I thought liberal democracy was alive and well but you want him sent off for correction for thoughtcrime. Crikey.
DannyInvincible
21/07/2015, 10:27 AM
Well, I mean he was out of sync with the direction everyone else had their bodies positioned towards. If you look at Baird and McGinn, they are facing the exact same direction as their teammates but bow their heads and it's a less pronounced gesture.
That's true, but in Baird/McGinn's situation, the whole team remained facing forward anyway in what I suppose you could call the default position as they either weren't facing a flag or it was in front of them. Had there been a flag to the side, the rest of the team might well have turned that way with Baird/McGinn remaining facing forward and out of sync. Who's to know? Nevertheless, I see the two situations as pretty similar in the sense all parties are opting out of observance/deference. As SvD alluded to earlier, all three parties are acting from the exact same tradition or school of thought, if you could call it that.
Wolfman
21/07/2015, 10:28 AM
IMO, if Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley can work together in a joint power agreement and if McGuinness can shake the Queen's hand and Prince Charles can shake McGuinness hand, then James McClean can stand and pretend to look interested during GSTQ for 3 mins.
If he wants people to respect his politics and views he should show respect back. He didn't just insult the Crown and the British Empire, he insulted West Bromwich Albion Football Club. WBA are a English club, who have English fans, staff and players. His clubs name, Albion, is ancient Greek for Britain. It was two fingers in their direction. He was representing WBA, an English club in America, their club. He should have known that.
His club should sent him to one of those FA education course. It would do him no harm to visit Warrington and go to the Tim Parry Foundation Centre in the town. He would learn that it wasn't just Catholics and Republicans that lost loved ones. The Parry family lost their two sons during an IRA attack. Rather that being twisted and let hate consume them, they did the opposite. They set up a Peace Fund in the hope of uniting communities so their sons deaths weren't in vain and something good and positive came out of it.
McClean is in last chance saloon. His career at Sunderland nose dived with some terrible displays. He went to Wigan and hardly set the world alight. Now he's got a great chance at a good club, with a loyal fan base under a top class manager. He might just have blown it already?!
Do you also read the Daily Mail?
DeLorean
21/07/2015, 10:39 AM
Any photo/footage of the Derry City player at the FAI Cup final?
GypsyBlackCat
21/07/2015, 10:44 AM
It doesn't upset me. You just seemed to contradict yourself by calling WBA a good club before seemingly dismissing them in order to make the point that McClean is actually a poor player. Anyway, the vast majority of Wigan fans and at least one Premier League manager appears to disagree with your position with regard to his abilities. Make of that what you will.
And I don't see reason to interpret what he did as an intended insult rooted in hate. I thought liberal democracy was alive and well but you want him sent off for correction for thoughtcrime. Crikey.
Good clubs and good managers sign bad players even Ferguson done it. Tony Pulis is in a better position to judge than me. But I'm sorry I don't rate him as a player. His an average Championship player IMO. And I haven't dismissed WBA as a club, if you read what I said, I pointed out that Sunderland Wigan and WBA offered him deals not the likes of Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea.
Secondly, I never said it was rooted in hate. It was childish and insulting towards his club and the country were he earns his trade. If wants to keep all that bitterness about the past and towards Britain that's fine because it's only harming himself. But maybe if he educated himself he'd see the big picture and it would benefit him.
GypsyBlackCat
21/07/2015, 10:45 AM
Do you also read the Daily Mail?
What did I say was wrong?
Gather round
21/07/2015, 10:59 AM
A local writes:
Albion fan' reaction is mixed. Some exaggerated outrage, sone support, more mildly irritated indifference. He's seen as a squad player of D2 standard really, so few strong feelings about whether he fits in or not.
Charlie Darwin
21/07/2015, 11:19 AM
IMO, if Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley can work together in a joint power agreement and if McGuinness can shake the Queen's hand and Prince Charles can shake McGuinness hand, then James McClean can stand and pretend to look interested during GSTQ for 3 mins.
So your criticism basically boils down to why couldn't he just be a good little boy and suppress his deeply-held views? That might work for you but not everybody is so passive and obedient to authority.
Sunderland, Wigan and West Brom.
It's hardly like Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal are tripping over themselves to sign him!
I never said they are. Please explain what relevance this has to anything.
Wolfman
21/07/2015, 11:27 AM
What did I say was wrong?
Pretty much all of it.
Olé Olé
21/07/2015, 11:34 AM
A local writes:
Albion fan' reaction is mixed. Some exaggerated outrage, sone support, more mildly irritated indifference. He's seen as a squad player of D2 standard really, so few strong feelings about whether he fits in or not.
The exaggerated outrage is always going to be the loudest.
I think he was signed as a squad player but Pulis referred to his start for Sunderland so he might be hoping for a similar impact. I mean, Walters was a lower league journeyman with a sterling work ethic. Under Pulis he became an integral player for a mid-table PL side. At an outlay of £1.5m and with a decent international career and relatively good age, there's little risk involved with the signing of McClean and the potential for resale if it doesn't work out.
GypsyBlackCat
21/07/2015, 11:59 AM
So your criticism basically boils down to why couldn't he just be a good little boy and suppress his deeply-held views? That might work for you but not everybody is so passive and obedient to authority.
I never said they are. Please explain what relevance this has to anything.
He doesn't have to obey authority just show respect. Not to the Queen or Britain but to his teammates, fans and club. It made him look childish. Pulis wasn't too happy about it and has warned him not to do it again. So he must be like me then.
The relevance is he isn't a top player at one of one of the top teams. If he keeps making headlines for the wrong reasons clubs won't want him.
GypsyBlackCat
21/07/2015, 12:10 PM
Pretty much all of it.
Well most WBA fans feel insulted and they are an English club. Reading some of the comments from their fans.
Players have been called up by the FA over incidents involving, politics, gender, race, religion and sexuality. ie. Rio Ferdinand and Robbie Fowler.
Innocent civilians on both sides were killed. Some people like to heal the wounds (like the Parry's) others want to keep them open. People like McClean only want to hear their side of the story but they're two.
Charlie Darwin
21/07/2015, 12:28 PM
He doesn't have to obey authority just show respect. Not to the Queen or Britain but to his teammates, fans and club. It made him look childish. Pulis wasn't too happy about it and has warned him not to do it again. So he must be like me then.
The relevance is he isn't a top player at one of one of the top teams. If he keeps making headlines for the wrong reasons clubs won't want him.
Showing respect in this instance is putting your head down (ironically) and suppressing your own objections. Like I said, that might be what you'd do, but when you do have strong feelings you don't just suppress them to keep up appearances.
SwanVsDalton
21/07/2015, 12:40 PM
Any photo/footage of the Derry City player at the FAI Cup final?
Haven't seen any, but here's a bit of contemporaneous reporting from the Sentinel (http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/morrow-disappointed-by-some-city-fans-1-2094314).
GypsyBlackCat
21/07/2015, 12:50 PM
Showing respect in this instance is putting your head down (ironically) and suppressing your own objections. Like I said, that might be what you'd do, but when you do have strong feelings you don't just suppress them to keep up appearances.
If he feels that strongly why didn't he move to New York? He does realize that he pays taxes to the crown which go towards the armed forces? He's entitled to his views and beliefs. But he must know that people will not agree with him and call him a hypocrite? I'm sure he knows that innocent people on both sides died (21 in Birmingham) and this is seen as supporting the IRA?He mightn't be?! It's sad that people still feel this way and still like upon Britain as the enemy. It looks like some people will refuse to move and halt progress.
Charlie Darwin
21/07/2015, 1:07 PM
If he feels that strongly why didn't he move to New York? He does realize that he pays taxes to the crown which go towards the armed forces? He's entitled to his views and beliefs. But he must know that people will not agree with him and call him a hypocrite? I'm sure he knows that innocent people on both sides died (21 in Birmingham) and this is seen as supporting the IRA?He mightn't be?! It's sad that people still feel this way and still like upon Britain as the enemy. It looks like some people will refuse to move and halt progress.
Because you don't have to move halfway around the world whenever you disagree with something? I think the Irish state and establishment has been and continues to be abhorrent on many levels. It doesn't make me a hypocrite to still live here. If you stopped seeing things in black and white for a moment you might realise protesting the institutions of state doesn't amount to a rejection of the entire country and all of its inhabitants.
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