Bohs in financial trouble - FAI Licencing called into question again?

[HulaHoop]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/0812/bohemians.html


Bohemians held a meeting of club members on Thursday night to outline proposals that will see the 2009 Premier Division champions cut their expenditure in the short and long-term.

A second-round qualifying exit from the Champions League has brought financial uncertainty to Dalymount Park.

Bohs directors have appealed to members for support after informing them of measures already taken to reduce costs.

A Bohemians statement read: 'Members were told that lower-than-expected commercial and gate income along with expenditure above target meant that the club faced continuing cashflow difficulties.

'The club has informed employees and the FAI of its current position.

'Proposals to consolidate the club's position in preparation for next season and for the longer-term move to a new stadium will be drafted in the coming weeks.'

The Gypsies could revert to a part-time operation next season and the possibility of wage cuts and players departing before the end of the 2010 campaign still remains.

They didn't budget for european success remember :dazed:

On a serious note, does this once more call into question the FAI's licencing process? Remember Bohs had a transfer embargo on them that the FAI lifted and allowed them to sign 7 new players before the season started.

[PartySaint]

So come on Rovers fans, what was said in the meeting??

[The Lep]

Its not a suprise that the thread was started by a Rovers head :)

[Doomofman]

Things don't seem too bad for Bohs judging by this... Yeah they'll have to go part time and let some players go but it's by no means a Derry/Cork/Shels situation

[peadar1987]

Its not a suprise that the thread was started by a Rovers head :)

To be fair, whenever there's a divot on the pitch in Tallaght, there'll be someone from either Phibsboro or Sligo mocking Shams and their rented home!

[Mario]

Things don't seem too bad for Bohs judging by this... Yeah they'll have to go part time and let some players go but it's by no means a Derry/Cork/Shels situation

Would missing the SCP not mean relegation or failing to a premier license for next year?

[de bowez]

Cash flow problems and SCP are 2 entirely different things.

[Doomofman]

The way I see it... There's been rumours since the SCP was brought in that Bohs didn't meet it and the worst that happened was a transfer embargo that was lifted in time for them to sign players... I can't imagine the FAI will do anything more this time... Don't forget the FAI APPROVED Bohs budget for this season

[Mario]

Cash flow problems and SCP are 2 entirely different things.

Whatever is spent on wages ... 35/65 times that has to be spent elsewhere, so if there are problems finding money for wages, then hard to see how the corresponding money to be spent elsewhere will be found too!

[Mr A]

Cash flow problems and SCP are 2 entirely different things.

True, but based on this:


A Bohemians statement read: 'Members were told that lower-than-expected commercial and gate income along with expenditure above target meant that the club faced continuing cashflow difficulties.

Income being below projections for sure and expenditure being up possibly (could be money spent on other than wages) are obviously going to have an impact on the SCP. Whether it pushes you over the limit or not is another matter but you're certainly going to be worse off than projected.

[Mario]

Don't forget the FAI APPROVED Bohs budget for this season

Their projections were approved, from then its up to all clubs to meet the SCP over the course of the season, having your projected budget approved doesnt give any club carte blanche to run amok financially after that ...

[PartySaint]

Don't forget the FAI APPROVED Bohs budget for this season

Thats the worst thing about this whole thing, Bohs ar totally messed up because of the TNS game yet the FAI saw their budget before the season started so how did they let them gamble on one tie??

[Mario]

Thats the worst thing about this whole thing, Bohs ar totally messed up because of the TNS game yet the FAI saw their budget before the season started so how did they let them gamble on one tie??

Bohs probably projected / guessed higher average gates at the start of the season!

[PartySaint]

How much higher?? 4,000 at every game

[de bowez]

Whatever is spent on wages ... 35/65 times that has to be spent elsewhere, so if there are problems finding money for wages, then hard to see how the corresponding money to be spent elsewhere will be found too!

Different argument, we could be an amateur club and still have cash flow problems, it would have no bearing on the SCP.

[hoops1]

This news both saddens and shocks me.

[Dodge]

Surely I can't be first to call Rovers fans bitter, obsessed or jealous? maybe the whole site (sic) is out to get Bohs?

[Ciaran W]

Every single thread seem to turn into a fight between rovers bohs and Sligo fans :D

[hoops1]

But Bohs are Invincible it cant be true

[Rasputin]

Surely I can't be first to call Rovers fans bitter, obsessed or jealous? maybe the whole site (sic) is out to get Bohs?
Well played dodge.

[awec]

Every year a club down here gets into money problems it seems ffs. No harm to you all, but you'd think you'd have realised that you're doing something wrong by now.

[Charlie Darwin]

Much as I dislike Bohs this is not good news.

[peadar1987]

Every year a club down here gets into money problems it seems ffs. No harm to you all, but you'd think you'd have realised that you're doing something wrong by now.
The only thing they've realised is that they can get away with it!

[Charlie Darwin]

No harm to you all, but you'd think you'd have realised that you're doing something wrong by now.
A few more years down south and you'll realise how ridiculous what you just said is.

[dcfc_1928]

Football clubs in financial trouble isn't just a problem in the LOI - it's a problem throughout football, including the Irish League:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/8798512.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/8430911.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/6745983.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_Town_F.C.


Every year a club down here gets into money problems it seems ffs. No harm to you all, but you'd think you'd have realised that you're doing something wrong by now.

[Macy]

On a serious note, does this once more call into question the FAI's licencing process? Remember Bohs had a transfer embargo on them that the FAI lifted and allowed them to sign 7 new players before the season started.
Licencing has zero credibility. They've managed to prove this several times every season.

Bohs situation can't be that much of a shock - Fenlon was flagging this straight after TNS. Timing is quite funny, given the last few days on here though.

[OneRedArmy]

Cashflow problems are small beer in Bohsland. I wonder how long its going to take for NAMA to pursue them through the Courts for selling land they didn't own?

[BohsPartisan]

SCP isn't an issue. To answer the Pats fan who claimed we were above the SCP every year, we were in compliance by the end of every season.

[hoopy]

SCP isn't an issue. To answer the Pats fan who claimed we were above the SCP every year, we were in compliance by the endof every season.

And that's why the SCP is a joke. You can cheat all year long so long as it's alright on the last week. So Bohs options to raise funds are to try to sell players for as much as possible and get members to pay in. Not sure how much that'll bring in.

[Captain2007]

No relegation again this year, thanks to elite clubs abusing finances, the FAI are a farce....must be the only league in Europe where ye just can not get relegated...

[dong]

SCP isn't an issue. To answer the Pats fan who claimed we were above the SCP every year, we were in compliance by the end of every season.

Here we go!!
It's head in the sand time again!!
Why can't fans of clubs on this forum or in general ever admit to the fact that their clubs have made huge mistakes and are up sh1t creek? This is too little, too late for Bohs and we see it all the time. Cork and Derry for years watching what was going on and not accepting the problem even existed until it was painfully obvious to everybody and too late to do anything about it anyways except reform and get relegated. Even ourselves at the start of last season. So many people trying to argue that there was nothing wrong when the club was going around with the hands out looking for a thousands to keep the show on the road. Last season with the transfer embargo and still Bohs fans were trying (and still are obviously) to defend it and say everything is okay. Then what happens, we see that their budget could not be sustained!! Why can't people be a bit more honest and less self protecting at all costs and face the realities?
Sure lets keep up with the petty point scoring and jibing and blame the FAI, sure it's great craic and we never have to accept our own problems.

[hoopy]

No relegation again this year, thanks to elite clubs abusing finances, the FAI are a farce....must be the only league in Europe where ye just can not get relegated...

Like ourselves clubs have been deservedly docked points over the last few years. Bohs have been warned this season and more than once last season about their finances by the FAI and zilch. And some Bohs fans come on here saying the FAI let us away with murder.

[Dodge]

still Bohs fans were trying (and still are obviously) to defend it and say everything is okay. Then what happens, we see that their budget could not be sustained!! Why can't people be a bit more honest and less self protecting at all costs and face the realities?

In fairness he didn't say there wasn't problems. He said the SCP wasn't an issue.

Bohs fans were told last night they are way, way under the SCP

[HulaHoop]

In fairness he didn't say there wasn't problems. He said the SCP wasn't an issue.

Bohs fans were told last night they are way, way under the SCP


Way under the 65% SCP yet struggling for cash to pay the wages. Something is not right with that, an indication perhaps that the income showing on their accounts for SCP purposes isn't actually income at all. Cookery books galore at the big club it seems.

[Macy]

In fairness he didn't say there wasn't problems. He said the SCP wasn't an issue.

Bohs fans were told last night they are way, way under the SCP
That's nearly worse - complying with the SCP and still being in trouble!

[dcfcsteve]

Cork and Derry for years watching what was going on and not accepting the problem even existed until it was painfully obvious to everybody and too late to do anything about it anyways except reform and get relegated.

You're being harsh/inaccurate in relation to City there.

There was no 'watching problems for years' as you suggest. It all really unfolded across last season. Only a few with insider information were in a position to start suggesting that things weren't well, and after the Euro run flushed out the money issues fans did start to raise issues. Then the whole dual-contracts thing came as a genuine surprise to pretty much everyone.

By the time we went pop there were still fans in denial, but also a lot up in arms. But to say that we knew for years what was going on and did nothing is just pure nonesense.

[Dodge]

Way under the 65% SCP yet struggling for cash to pay the wages. Something is not right with that

Not trying to get into it again but do you not see the similarities between Rovers' losses and their spend on wages?

(and before anyone starts bringing Pats into it, I know full well how close we've come to going bust in recent times, and how much we're strugglling for income. The only saving grace for us, as a club, is how we've reduced the playing budget to around a quarter of what it was 2 years ago)

EDIT; Oh and one of my Bohs supporting mates was strangely happy about last night's meeting because he felt it was the first time the baord had faced up to their problems, and admitted some mistakes.

Whatever about internet ********ology, no club's supporters are in any position to be gloating about finances

[pineapple stu]

You're being harsh/inaccurate in relation to City there.

It all really unfolded across last season.
Funny; I recall telling you ye were broke in 2008 when you couldn't pay the Sammon transfer fee. MariborKev was raising questions then too.


That's nearly worse - complying with the SCP and still being in trouble!
I wonder if that deal they did - buy back some land to sell it to another party - counts as an extra E1m of income towards the SCP? So they're way under the SCP, but only because they made up an extra million of income, which obviously is no good when it comes to hard cash.

But sure we'll see soon when the accounts are filed with the CRO.

[dcfcsteve]

Football clubs in financial trouble isn't just a problem in the LOI - it's a problem throughout football, including the Irish League:



You're right that finances are a problem elsewhere in football. That's one of the things that really annoys me about English football - people over here slag off the LOI for its finacial problems, yet they conveniently ignore the fact that football in their beloved English system is in perennial crisis, with clubs regularly in and out of administration. It was only a surprisingly understanding judge that stopped Portsmouth from being wound up last week, but it can't be long before an English club gets the bullet for their financial errors.

The Irish league also has financial issues. However - it would be unfair to put them on a parallel with ours. Omagh Town went bust in 2005. Prior to that, I can't think who the last club to pull out of the Irish League for financial reasons was. In the five years since Omagh Town dropped out, the LOI has lost Kildare County, Kilkenny City, Cobh Ramblers and Dublin City.

No matter what way you look at it, the LOI has an absurdly high level of instability. It's always had chopping and changing - from memory, we haven't had more than 3 seasons in a row since the league founded that there hasn't been some sort of change regarding teams. Some of those changes have just been name changes, and some have been positive like increases in league membership etc, but a lot has also been teams drifting in and out of senior football : Thurles Town, St James Gate (twice), St Francis, EMFA/Kilkenny, Kildare County, Newcastle Utd/West, 12 different Cork Clubs, 4 different Limerick clubs, Bridevile, Drumcondra, Midland Athletic etc etc. The list of clubs who've dropped in and out of senior football in the LOI is huge. In the Irish League its much smaller - pretty much Belfast Celtic, Derry City and Omagh Town in the years since the split.

Why is the IL a much more stable league than ours, despite having less money and support ? I would argue there's three reasons. Firstly, football is much more entrenched in the north than in the south. Secondly, it's only in the last three decades or so that they've had less money/crowds than the LOI. And finally, and most importantly, their clubs haven't gone down the full-time football arms race that we have - spending money they don't have to keep up with the Jones's. That's what's knackered us, and it began with Shels and Ollie Byrne in my view.

[Jicked]

Have their board really faced up to reality if they're still talking about moving to a brand new purpose build stadium. Now I'm no property developer, but if I knew Bohs were up the creek financially, and wanted to buy Dalyer for some bizarre reason in this financial climate, why would I offer them more than the bare minimum? Bohs would be forced to accept a bid for Dalyer that clears their Zurich debt. Why would you give Bohs a few extra million and then build them a stadium for no particular reason?

[HulaHoop]

Not trying to get into it again but do you not see the similarities between Rovers' losses and their spend on wages?



Not going to go on a big defensive rant but Rovers are fairly cash rich even if the balance sheet showed a loss at the end of the year. Never struggled to pay wages, no revenue debt whatsoever and didn't have to cut the budget and sell players halfway through the season so no I don't see many similarities with the Bohs situation.

[Dodge]

I don't see many similarities with the Bohs situation.

You've operated at a loss every year.

[pineapple stu]

Not going to go on a big defensive rant but Rovers are fairly cash rich even if the balance sheet showed a loss at the end of the year. Never struggled to pay wages, no revenue debt whatsoever and didn't have to cut the budget and sell players halfway through the season so no I don't see many similarities with the Bohs situation.
The balance sheet showed an overdraft of E35k, so I don't see how you can claim to be cash-rich. It also showed a Revenue liability of E100k, so it's untrue to say there was no Revenue debt whatsoever. (I'd say that was probably the 2009 tax return, in which case, it's all under control, but it's on record that ye did have a Revenue debt)

[White Horse]

Why would you give Bohs a few extra million and then build them a stadium for no particular reason?

I know. It's not as if South Dublin County Council is their local authority.

[dong]

In fairness he didn't say there wasn't problems. He said the SCP wasn't an issue.

Bohs fans were told last night they are way, way under the SCP

I was more talking about general attitudes than that specific post Dodge (maybe I shouldn't have quoted that particular post). I still stand by my point.




By the time we went pop there were still fans in denial, but also a lot up in arms. But to say that we knew for years what was going on and did nothing is just pure nonesense.

Okay, that may have been an exaggeration to say "for years" Steve but, again, I was talking about the general attitudes of fans to defend their club at all costs despite what is so patently obvious if they just took the blinkers off for one second and stop being so defensive when issues like this arise.
Happens with the hooligan issue as well constantly. The only club, as far as I can see, that has done anything to eradicate the problem in any real way has been Dundalk and I have seen a few posts from their fans accepting that there is a problem there (no matter how small) and actually accepting it and doing something about it. For most other fans its a case of: "It was only a tiny minority" or "What about what your fans did etc etc".
I understand the nature of supporting a team means that often times we may have tunnel vision and sometimes problems are not made known to the fans until it is too late. But at the same time hold your hands up when its gone pear shaped and accept it while there is still a chance to do something.
I have no knowledge of the intricacies of Bohs finances but the transfer embargo last season, the wages being paid with the crowds they get in Dalymount over the last couple of seasons should have been warning enough that the plan had to change. They could have gotten a bit more realistic and maybe with a bit of prudence avoided the liklihood of going part time now next season.
Around and around we go....

[Jicked]

You've operated at a loss every year.

A rather manageable loss in the LoI scheme of things. Reasons for last year's (first season in Tallaght) loss was explained to members at the AGM, and those reasons suggest the (already relatively meagre) scale of that loss shouldn't repeat itself in future years in Tallaght. The fantastic uptake on season tickets and our European run this season should help no end too.

[Dodge]

A rather manageable loss in the LoI scheme of things

No question, but a loss none the less. And you've accrued losses too. In no way am I saying Rovers' financial woes are anything like those on the sclae of Bohs. I'm just pointing out that every LOI club has to fight constantly just to stay above water.

[HulaHoop]

The balance sheet showed an overdraft of E35k, so I don't see how you can claim to be cash-rich. It also showed a Revenue liability of E100k, so it's untrue to say there was no Revenue debt whatsoever. (I'd say that was probably the 2009 tax return, in which case, it's all under control, but it's on record that ye did have a Revenue debt)

Ah sorry should have explained my information was coming from the Members AGM held in April which is a few months after those 2009 accounts were finalised. Obviously at that stage we were cash rich after selling the guts of 3000 season tickets.

[pineapple stu]

At that stage, maybe, but sure 3000 season tickets just takes what - E30k a match? - off your gate receipts. Doesn't in the least address the question of the E140k loss last year.

[Dodge]

a loss none the less

Just as an aside, I think this may be the worst phrase I've ever posted