Bohs in financial trouble - FAI Licencing called into question again? [Archive] - Page 24

Spudulika

15/02/2011, 4:43 PM

Average crowds of about 1300? 1300 @ E10 x 20 home games = E260k.

Yes, there's prize money, sponsorship, membership, etc, but there's also debt to be paid off. It's a massive leap to suggest that Bohs could realistically budget for E1m.

If you put in a couple of "glamour" friendlies you're adding E100k to the pot too, though as a club with a pretty good fanbase they should be at least budgeting for the million euro mark. Is the debt related to the actual submission or under re-structuring is it separate? Though for the licence it's realistic expectations so the gate average would be up around 2,000, sponsorships over E200k, glamour friendlies E100k, dues and others E100k and prizemoney up near E200k. It then boils down to how much are their repayments on debt.

Dodge

15/02/2011, 4:48 PM

If you put in a couple of "glamour" friendlies you're adding E100k to the pot too,
HOw many of them have happened in recent times and you want Bohs to get 2 a season?

Though for the licence it's realistic expectations so the gate average would be up around 2,000
They got about 200 less than that when they won the league.

dues and others E100k
LOL

and prizemoney up near E200k.
So they'd have to win the league twice

Jicked

15/02/2011, 4:50 PM

Okay so Bayly was on a small wedge last year. Id venture he's on a small wedge again this year. Your post also suggests that Rovers are paying above the odds as they are a league challenging team again this year. Not really sure where your going with that, either he was on a small wage or he was not.

Where have i made fun of Bayly and Price by the way? In fact i singled them out as two signings with honours.

Also, you failed to acknowledge the fact that, more than ever before, this season is a clubs market. That will have had a huge bearing on the contracts that ALL clubs are offering.

I stated that we have to be able to field a team. We made some astute signings of youngsters who will be on a very small wedge, a very young loanee and 3 of your so called players with "experience and plenty of honours". Seeing as though you seem to know how much Monaghan, Bray and Drogs are going to be spending, could you please share that information so i can share that with the Bohs members for comparison sake? Thanks.

We have actually restructured our debt. We have retructured our budget and are now focussed on the season ahead and the long term challenges we still face. Nothing has changed except 6 new signings and a loanee.

There's not really much point to this. You think I'm having a go at Bohs because I'm a Rovers fan, fair enough, but that's not my intention. The point I'm making is that Bohs are supposedly in a fiscal crisis, but are spending money on players they don't need to spend. No, Boccer wont be one of the highest paid players in the league, but I'm sure you can see that Bohs have gone and signed players for more money than what Drogheda/UCD/Bray/Monaghan have or will be spending this year. If your financial woes are as serious as as has been made out, then that's crazy in a season where no-one may be relegated. You're being facetious in asking me to provide figures for what UCD or whoever spend, especially when I'm sure you can admit that that's a better and more expensive squad than those clubs mentioned. The money you're working hard to raise via 24 hour fasts etc could be just as easily raised by employing a squad of players on a similar cost to Bray, but it seems like the Bohs board and Fenlon would rather continue as normal and let the fans do the fund raising.

de bowez

15/02/2011, 4:51 PM

We did have 2 or 3 last season, Wolves are hardly glamorous but we did sell Matt Doherty out of it so I'd expect we'll do similar this year.

osarusan

15/02/2011, 4:53 PM

Though for the licence it's realistic expectations so the gate average would be up around 2,000, sponsorships over E200k, glamour friendlies E100k, dues and others E100k and prizemoney up near E200k.
Those figures are far from realistic expectations. For a start, winning the league, cup and league cup would only get them 160k.

SkStu

15/02/2011, 4:56 PM

sorry Spud - youre miles off there. If we budget for 1m-1.3m i will do a Maxi on Dalymount. That sort of money just does not exist in the league. Im sure Sligo and Shams will take issue with what you've put out there for them too. By the way i dont think the FAI allows glamour friendlies anymore!!

Louth4sam

15/02/2011, 4:56 PM

From what I saw Bohs have some half decent under-20 and A team players, so they will be good squad players with a couple well able to step up. It's very interesting to see that everyone seems to know what everyone is earning, especially when it comes to cheapshotting other clubs. Bohs could realistically budget for 1-1.3million as they have the earning capacity to do so. Rovers, apparently, are budgeting for closer to 2million, while Sligo Rovers somewhere in between. As it stands it's a 2 horse race again, unless Dundalk, Pats and Monaghan can put up a good show (tongue removed from cheek after last sentences).

Spudulika you defended Fingal to the hilt when everybody else was criticising their business model now your doing the same with Bohs. What gives?

I am absolutely baffled that you think that Bohs could budget for €1.3 million

John83

15/02/2011, 5:04 PM

If you put in a couple of "glamour" friendlies you're adding E100k to the pot too, though as a club with a pretty good fanbase they should be at least budgeting for the million euro mark. Is the debt related to the actual submission or under re-structuring is it separate? Though for the licence it's realistic expectations so the gate average would be up around 2,000, sponsorships over E200k, glamour friendlies E100k, dues and others E100k and prizemoney up near E200k. It then boils down to how much are their repayments on debt.
You're not Padraig Smith, are you? It'd explain a lot.

SkStu

15/02/2011, 5:06 PM

There's not really much point to this. You think I'm having a go at Bohs because I'm a Rovers fan, fair enough, but that's not my intention. The point I'm making is that Bohs are supposedly in a fiscal crisis, but are spending money on players they don't need to spend. No, Boccer wont be one of the highest paid players in the league, but I'm sure you can see that Bohs have gone and signed players for more money than what Drogheda/UCD/Bray/Monaghan have or will be spending this year. If your financial woes are as serious as as has been made out, then that's crazy in a season where no-one may be relegated. You're being facetious in asking me to provide figures for what UCD or whoever spend, especially when I'm sure you can admit that that's a better and more expensive squad than those clubs mentioned. The money you're working hard to raise via 24 hour fasts etc could be just as easily raised by employing a squad of players on a similar cost to Bray, but it seems like the Bohs board and Fenlon would rather continue as normal and let the fans do the fund raising.

No Jicked, if it was any fan putting the same points forward i would make the same points in reply. I admit that we likely have a more expensive squad than the three clubs you mentioned but i also think we have more income potential than those same clubs so i dont see a huge problem. The problem before was a playing and coaching budget that far exceeded our income. I think we have addressed that and by my estimation have assembled a squad shrewdly.. if you disagree and think it is a disgrace then so be it, i cant change your mind.

Jicked

15/02/2011, 5:12 PM

But what's the return on this investment in these players? It's a good squad, but like Pats or Dundalk last season it wont be able to sustain a title challenge. There's no danger of that squad being relegated, but since it's almost impossible to get relegated next season, why bother spending this money to finish 5th/6th and not just pocket the money and add that to the fundraising efforts?

The only possible arguments for spending the money are that by finishing 5th/6th you'll attract substantially bigger crowds then if you were challenging Bray for 8th/9th. But after last season's attendances when you dropped off the pace a bit, I think it's pretty fair to say that regardless of if you're 5th or 9th your attendances will be down, and probably down to the hardcore element of fans. The other reason for spending that money would be in the hope of winning a round or two in Europe if you got a lucky draw, but surely even the Bohs board aren't still considering that.

Fans are working their balls off to raise a few hundred grand, and now it's being blown on a decent, but not honours challenging, squad. I just can't understand why the board don't write off this season to try to raise more money for the future.

de bowez

15/02/2011, 5:15 PM

Why does any club anywhere spend if they're still not going to challenge for the title?

1st time post

15/02/2011, 5:16 PM

From what I saw Bohs have some half decent under-20 and A team players, so they will be good squad players with a couple well able to step up. It's very interesting to see that everyone seems to know what everyone is earning, especially when it comes to cheapshotting other clubs. Bohs could realistically budget for 1-1.3million as they have the earning capacity to do so. Rovers, apparently, are budgeting for closer to 2million, while Sligo Rovers somewhere in between. As it stands it's a 2 horse race again, unless Dundalk, Pats and Monaghan can put up a good show (tongue removed from cheek after last sentences).

Your absolutely off your nut you think our budget would be anthing near 1.5/1.6 million. I dont know anything bout Shams finances but id be shocked if they were budgeting for 2 million aswell.

Jicked

15/02/2011, 5:18 PM

Why does any club anywhere spend if they're still not going to challenge for the title?

But most clubs aren't also doing big fundraising drives, fans doing 24 hours fasts, gigs being organised, Save Our Bohs programmes being launched. It's either a case of you not needing to that stuff to actually save the club, or you're wasting that money on finishing 5th instead of 9th.

Ezeikial

15/02/2011, 5:22 PM

CSFShels

15/02/2011, 5:27 PM

Its just far too strong a squad so far for a club meant to be fighting to overcome a gigantic debt. By all means Fenlon should be looking to sign good players, but his job right now is to find good players that everyone else doesn't know already are good players, because those players command more wages, and would be stupid not to do so as there are still plenty of clubs out there looking for players. To suggest Burns, Price, Flood and Bayly could not have gotten a decent contract elsewhere would be insanity.

Bohs aren't learning their lessons, they're saying they are, they're able to say what the lesson they've learned is, but when it comes down to it, again they're spending money on a squad hoping it will bring in finance through success. Granted, the success they're chasing is no longer Champions League group stage. But realistically Bohs aim should have been sign a squad cheap enough to stay in the Premier Division this year and no more expensive than that. Just because a club survives one year after financial issues, doesn't mean they're out of the mire. Galway and Drogheda should be a lesson of that. Cork before them. Bohs are making the same mistakes on a lesser scale and the results will probably work out something similar, while the fans will be much less enthusiastic about forking out wads of cash to save the club again.

SkStu

15/02/2011, 5:28 PM

i had a response typed out for you jicked but this website has been hanging on me occasionally for about two weeks now (anyone else having this problem?).

Anyway, the jist of it was i dont think there will be a huge difference in budgets outside the top 3 clubs (presumably you, Sligo and Dundalk). The next 4 or 5 will all have equivalent budgets. I also said that i think that at crowds of 1600-2200 we are already down to our hardcore. (clarify: 1600-2200 is attendances, not just Bohs fans)

If we had signed 3 young players like Fagan or Joyce instead of Burns, Bayly and Price would you still be having a go? I suspect you would irerspective of who we signed. Where also has it been stated that there will be no relegation this year?

I also understand that you dont get what we are doing. Thats fine. You may be proven right. Is there much point in continuing this?

Nesta99

15/02/2011, 5:34 PM

Is there much point in continuing this?

No not really until it is dragged up some time next year to gloat in Bohemians possible future demise!

SkStu

15/02/2011, 5:36 PM

No not really until it is dragged up some time next year to gloat in Bohemians possible future demise!

haha - i have a feeling this thread will still be on the first page of the forum at that stage anyway! :)

Spudulika

15/02/2011, 5:37 PM

Spudulika you defended Fingal to the hilt when everybody else was criticising their business model now your doing the same with Bohs. What gives?

I am absolutely baffled that you think that Bohs could budget for �1.3 million

l4s, how did I defend SF to the hilt? Asking for balance to the debate is not backing to the hilt. Likewise people claiming they know exact figures is also open to question. I think that's quite clear, right?

Skstu, everyone else is making guesses and estimates, though I agree the higher amount is probably a stretch too far. Osarusan (+Dodge), you also have to factor in UEFA money, I forget the minimum though it's probably in the region of 100k. "Glamour" friendlies are still allowed, though only 2.

We can all guesstimate what each club is shelling out, though unless club secretaries start posting up exact figures then it's all pie in the sky.

CSFShels

15/02/2011, 5:37 PM

If we had signed 3 young players like Fagan or Joyce instead of Burns, Bayly and Price would you still be having a go? I suspect you would irerspective of who we signed. Where also has it been stated that there will be no relegation this year?
Doubt it. Either way we wouldn't know if Bohs hadn't splashed out on players not in keeping with the budget of a club who is trying to merely survive. Bray have that kind of budget, their squad reflects this. UCD the same. Drogheda the same. Monaghan will also have the same. Bohs seem to have decided that since they will have a bigger income than these clubs (and they're right, they will have) that this should automatically go into the playing budget, which given Bohs situation seems absolute madness.

Spudulika

15/02/2011, 5:40 PM

Your absolutely off your nut you think our budget would be anthing near 1.5/1.6 million. I dont know anything bout Shams finances but id be shocked if they were budgeting for 2 million aswell.

Please note "apparently", you'd be completely off your nut not to notice the word. Sligo and Rovers would have more a chance of raising in excess of a million because of their home attendances and prizemoney, though it would be a surprise if it were that amount.

SkStu

15/02/2011, 5:42 PM

CSFShels

15/02/2011, 5:46 PM

no CSF - that is my assumption. Bohs havent decided anything other than, after restrtucturing our debt and getting rid of most of our squad, to sign a certain number of players within a certain budget. Like every other club in the league and with all due consideration to its other obligations.
Like every other club in the league that eventually couldn't manage the budget. With very little due consideration to their other obligations.

SwanVsDalton

15/02/2011, 5:51 PM

We can all guesstimate what each club is shelling out, though unless club secretaries start posting up exact figures then it's all pie in the sky.

To be fair Spud, your pie wasn't so much in the sky as taking one giant leap for pastry on the moon's surface.

SwanVsDalton

15/02/2011, 5:54 PM

no CSF - that is my assumption. Bohs havent decided anything other than, after restrtucturing our debt and getting rid of most of our squad, to sign a certain number of players within a certain budget. Like every other club in the league and with all due consideration to its other obligations.

Stu - the only thing that really strikes me, that I'm not sure you or other Bohs fans have addressed (don't think so anyway), is how do the fans feel about their earnest fundraising efforts going on a budget that seems far from desperate?

de bowez

15/02/2011, 5:57 PM

Stu - the only thing that really strikes me, that I'm not sure you or other Bohs fans have addressed (don't think so anyway), is how do the fans feel about their earnest fundraising efforts going on a budget that seems far from desperate?

If its sustainable, happy days. If they come back after an early European exit begging bowl in hand I'd happily join a lynch mob.

Spudulika

15/02/2011, 5:58 PM

To be fair Spud, your pie wasn't so much in the sky as taking one giant leap for pastry on the moon's surface.

You're too kind :-) I was going to say it was the first of two words, the second being hole, that posters who know for sure what other clubs have or haven't discuss the matter through :-) Not excluding anyone including myself :-)

It may have been a step too far for humanity, and my apologies for not including the mega money the Candystripes are ploughing into players and staff, made worse by currency exchange rates, of course!

SkStu

15/02/2011, 6:02 PM

Stu - the only thing that really strikes me, that I'm not sure you or other Bohs fans have addressed (don't think so anyway), is how do the fans feel about their earnest fundraising efforts going on a budget that seems far from desperate?

the fundraising/loan scheme was to pay off the players and to pay towards a significant chunk of the squad costs for this year. We knew what we were doing it for. The one thing i do agree with CSFShels is that if this does all go pear shaped again, there is no more money there for the Board. I will not give another iota to the club if this happens again. twice bitten and all that...

Question for Ezekial and Jicked. Oman (Rovers) and Byrne (Dundalk) were two huge earners for Bohs last season. On massive money. What sort of money did you offer them to sign for you?

Jicked

15/02/2011, 6:05 PM

Question for Ezekial and Jicked. Oman (Rovers) and Byrne (Dundalk) were two huge earners for Bohs last season. On massive money. What sort of money did you offer them to sign for you?

I'm not at home in Dublin and wont be for a few weeks, at the AGM we'll have an idea of what players are on. But we offered a Oman a wage that he turned down to sign with Fingal, so it's not like we were desperate to sign him at any cost, and whatever price it is it'll be less than what Fingal had offered to pay him, which in turn would have been less than he was at at Bohs.

SkStu

15/02/2011, 6:07 PM

thanks. I just wanted to show that the high earners are not earning as much or nearly as much as they did previously.

SwanVsDalton

15/02/2011, 6:15 PM

If its sustainable, happy days. If they come back after an early European exit begging bowl in hand I'd happily join a lynch mob.

the fundraising/loan scheme was to pay off the players and to pay towards a significant chunk of the squad costs for this year. We knew what we were doing it for. The one thing i do agree with CSFShels is that if this does all go pear shaped again, there is no more money there for the Board. I will not give another iota to the club if this happens again. twice bitten and all that...

Fair enough so, but have seen Derry go down that round enough times and I've a feeling you guys might want to keep the pitchforks handy...

It may have been a step too far for humanity, and my apologies for not including the mega money the Candystripes are ploughing into players and staff, made worse by currency exchange rates, of course!

Glad we're flying under the radar for once...! Probably jinxed it now though...

Jicked

15/02/2011, 6:16 PM

thanks. I just wanted to show that the high earners are not earning as much or nearly as much as they did previously.

No doubt about it, but even at those reduced rates we outbid our rivals Dundalk, Pats, Sligo for Oman (for arguments sake, I've no idea if those teams were interested in that particular player, but it is fair to say we're going up against those clubs for the top players). On one hand we hear that Bohs aim is to consolidate, stay up, don't care about the competitiveness of the team etc which would make Bray/UCD/Mons/Drogs your rivals, but these signings significantly outbid what those clubs are spending, so if that's the aim you are spending over the odds of what is needed to put together a squad at that level.

On a bit of a side issue, what's Fenlon on for the year, when's his deal up and did he take one of the paycuts the players took that time?

Charlie Darwin

15/02/2011, 6:22 PM

From what I saw Bohs have some half decent under-20 and A team players, so they will be good squad players with a couple well able to step up. It's very interesting to see that everyone seems to know what everyone is earning, especially when it comes to cheapshotting other clubs. Bohs could realistically budget for 1-1.3million as they have the earning capacity to do so. Rovers, apparently, are budgeting for closer to 2million, while Sligo Rovers somewhere in between. As it stands it's a 2 horse race again, unless Dundalk, Pats and Monaghan can put up a good show (tongue removed from cheek after last sentences).
From what I remember of the Bohs accounts that leaked a few months back, Bohs' total current account earnings for '09 were around the 1.3 million mark. Assuming that crowds will be down from the heights of the title-winning seasons and commercial revenue will definitely be down, there's no way they'll be able to budget anything close to that.

horton

15/02/2011, 6:23 PM

Can I throw my 2 cents in here? To be honest, I'm a Derry fan and I'm fed up reading the attacks on Bohs. I assume most people on here are just your run of the mill fans, not privy to the "commercially sensitive" information about the wages of people at a club. Sporting Fingal has hit the wall, Galway may just aswell have it seems. That is two less top employers for a footballer in Ireland. Therefore it is a clubs market. Players have to be alot more flexible just to ensure they get signed. For all we know, Bohs have managed to get these players on seriously reduced wages. If it all goes up the left in a few months time, you can all shout I told ya so at SkStu and every other Bohs fan on here. If the club hasn't learnt it's lesson by now that it can't risk massive budgets, I'm sure most of their fans won't open their wallets to bail them a second time and they can go to the wall.

SkStu

15/02/2011, 6:26 PM

Jicked,

the thing is we are always going to spend more than those clubs. Always. Our aim is to stay up and consolidate. Nothing we have done suggests otherwise. Especially that you acknowledge that we likely are paying a lot less for Burns, Price and Bayly than they previously were paid.

AFAIK Fenlon has taken one pay cut since he joined Bohs. Im not sure of exact figures so i wont post here but i have speculated on the Bohs mb.

legendz

15/02/2011, 10:54 PM

Dodge

15/02/2011, 11:47 PM

Where are Boh's likely to finish this season? With the bottom club set to face a relegation play-off at the end of the season, Boh's should be capable of finishing 8th or 9th, safe enough from relegation?

I said it earlier, I'll be astonished if they don't finish in top 5

Schumi

16/02/2011, 12:36 AM

Where are Boh's likely to finish this season? With the bottom club set to face a relegation play-off at the end of the season, Boh's should be capable of finishing 8th or 9th, safe enough from relegation?They'll be miles ahead of us, Monaghan and Drogheda and should be ahead of Bray too so 6th at a minimum.

Spudulika

16/02/2011, 7:50 AM

Bohs will be pushing for Europe, top 5. It's almost certainly a 2 horse race between Sligo and Rovers, now I'm beginning to wonder if they haven't devised a diabolical east-west cartel with the FAI to have them both breakaway and join the Sky Premier League North (Scotland) to replace Rangers and Celtic when they go to Sky Premier League South next year.

pineapple stu

16/02/2011, 8:54 AM

Jicked,

the thing is we are always going to spend more than those clubs. Always.
I know it's not you making the decisions, but I think comments like this show that you don't really appreciate the situation. When Shels were Shelegated, their budget to start the first was tiny - easily smaller than ours, I'd say. It's grown since then, but they didn't go off signing league winners after going broke. (In fact, they loaned a load of players off us). Bohs have to go the same way, and if it means swallowing your pride and being smaller than poor ickle Bray/UCD/Monaghan for a year or two to ensure that this isn't your last season in senior football, then so be it.

Louth4sam

16/02/2011, 9:40 AM

we likely are paying a lot less for Burns,

Burns turned down a contract offer at Dundalk as did price so seriously doubt you are paying a lot less than we offered them

FatandLazy

16/02/2011, 10:56 AM

Burns turned down a contract offer at Dundalk as did price so seriously doubt you are paying a lot less than we offered them

And Bolger turned down a contract offer from Bohs after Fingal went bust, yet Dundalk were able to sign him so I guess it's swings and roundabouts and might come down to who a player wants to play for and why?

Lots of players have turned down offers from Bohs and have taken employment elsewhere.

Ezeikial

16/02/2011, 12:28 PM

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/give-me-time-to-get-bohs-firing-fenlon-2542219.html

BOHEMIANS will operate on a budget of approximately �250,000 this season -- 15pc of what they were spending three years ago......

Relax everyone, no need for the big fuss after all. Bohs are operating on a prudent budget of �250k!

Pat Fenlon should immediately be head hunted for the Dept of Finance if he can assemble this squad along with "two or three more players" on that budget

If you assume that he ends up with a small squad of 16 and that the four already under contract are only costing in the region of �3,000 per week over 52 weeks, that leaves an average of �210 per week over 37 weeks for each of the remaining 12 players

New Contracts

Liam Burns
Aidan Price
Ger O�Brien
Chris Fagan
Anto Flood
Robert Bayly .
Daniel Joyce

Gary Burke
Mark Rossiter

Previously under contract

Chris O�Connor
Brian Murphy
Owen Heary
Glenn Cronin

SkStu

16/02/2011, 1:02 PM

I know it's not you making the decisions, but I think comments like this show that you don't really appreciate the situation. When Shels were Shelegated, their budget to start the first was tiny - easily smaller than ours, I'd say. It's grown since then, but they didn't go off signing league winners after going broke. (In fact, they loaned a load of players off us). Bohs have to go the same way, and if it means swallowing your pride and being smaller than poor ickle Bray/UCD/Monaghan for a year or two to ensure that this isn't your last season in senior football, then so be it.

fair enough. I didnt mean it as a dig. I do appreciate the situation, of course i do, but I think you are guilty of ignoring all the other factors i mentioned or else just not giving them any credence and to be honest, thats fine, that your prerogative and you may well be proven right. As an aside, i believe we could have not signed Burns and Flood but the others i have no problem with and again it all depends on how much they are being paid which thankfully, Ezeikial has clarified.

White Horse

16/02/2011, 1:33 PM

And Bolger turned down a contract offer from Bohs after Fingal went bust, yet Dundalk were able to sign him so I guess it's swings and roundabouts and might come down to who a player wants to play for and why?

The lad said that he just wanted stability after the Fingal debacle. Dundalk may not be paying the biggest wages around, but the club is currently financially stable.

marinobohs

16/02/2011, 1:36 PM

The lad said that he just wanted stability after the Fingal debacle. Dundalk may not be paying the biggest wages around, but the club is currently financially stable.

...thus proving the point that players decisions are not always 100% about money (except of course when its Bohs and our honey dripped promises :rolleyes: )

White Horse

16/02/2011, 1:41 PM

...thus proving the point that players decisions are not always 100% about money (except of course when its Bohs and our honey dripped promises :rolleyes: )

True.

Danger-loving, thrill-seeking, adreneline junkies may opt for the financial and emotional rollercoaster in Dalymount Park rather than play elsewhere for better money.

It's entirely possible. ;)

marinobohs

16/02/2011, 1:55 PM

True.

Danger-loving, thrill-seeking, adreneline junkies may opt for the financial and emotional rollercoaster in Dalymount Park rather than play elsewhere for better money.

It's entirely possible. ;)

... or about as likely as player opts to sign for former big club with a record for illegaly sacking players/coaches (oh, sorry they reached a settlement :rolleyes:) and cutting salaries in mid season ? :) despite bigger salary offer.

Persoanlly I think any player depending on LOI for steady income shows masochistic tendencies.

As people on here are questioning our budget does anyone have any real evidence or is this just the usual trawling ? if anyone has any REAL information contridicting what was stated at yesterdays press conference then post it