View Full Version : Bohs in financial trouble - FAI Licencing called into question again?
There's no guarantee he'll actually go the Hibs though. He'll need a fairly good wage to have to leave I'd imagine.
Nutsy? He'd go in a heartbeat.
Too much going on behind the scenes in Dalymount.
Its win/win for everyone though. He wants to go, Bohs want him off the wagebill. Hibs get a good manager
Charlie Darwin
24/11/2011, 10:03 AM
Why wouldn't he be offered a good wage? Even average SPL clubs have Sky money that no LOI club could match, even Bohs at their most delusional.
nigel-harps1954
24/11/2011, 10:59 AM
Not saying they won't give him a good wage, but sure look at Paul Cook from Sligo, turned down St.Johnstone. I'll agree it'll most likely happen, but there is always the possibility it won't.
TiocfaidhArmani
24/11/2011, 11:01 AM
Why wouldn't he be offered a good wage? Even average SPL clubs have Sky money that no LOI club could match, even Bohs at their most delusional.
The new SKY/ESPN deal gives them approx €2.3 million a year, which is nearly what Rovers turnover a year. The rumour is he's being offered in the range of £150/200k a year with a house rented for him and a new car, although the car is standard for a new manager coming in from abroad.
A nice 20k stadium, crowds over double what the biggest club in Ireland get even though they're struggling and a nearly new £6 million top class training facility to train his players in. The little shiite has bankrupted more clubs (not entirely his fault I know) and always seems to land on his feet.
pateen
24/11/2011, 11:10 AM
Any compo for the Boez?
nigel-harps1954
24/11/2011, 11:15 AM
Any compo for the Boez?
Hmm..
0
Dunny
24/11/2011, 11:28 AM
Any compo for the Boez?
No.
If you believe whats being said
culloty82
24/11/2011, 1:21 PM
The Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2011/11/24/bohemians-boss-pat-fenlon-set-to-be-appointed-as-hibs-new-manager-86908-23584404/) seem to think the main terms of the deal have been agreed - nothing revealed about salary before tomorrow, it seems.
No.
If you believe whats being said
I believe what is being said - the board is very believable - but the fact the Bohs board pointed out that they had to give him permission to speak with Hibs suggests that he remains under contract and what the implications of that, in the absence of a clause or agreement to the contrary, is compensation.
That said, i personally dont want compensation - Nutsys daily slog and commitment to our club over the last few years has been compensation enough - and i really hope that the Board isnt going for it (i dont think they are).
askmehoop
25/11/2011, 5:43 PM
The new SKY/ESPN deal gives them approx €2.3 million a year, which is nearly what Rovers turnover a year. The rumour is he's being offered in the range of £150/200k a year with a house rented for him and a new car, although the car is standard for a new manager coming in from abroad.
A nice 20k stadium, crowds over double what the biggest club in Ireland get even though they're struggling and a nearly new £6 million top class training facility to train his players in. The little shiite has bankrupted more clubs (not entirely his fault I know) and always seems to land on his feet.
didnt realise he had financial control at shels
peadar1987
27/11/2011, 3:43 PM
The new SKY/ESPN deal gives them approx €2.3 million a year, which is nearly what Rovers turnover a year. The rumour is he's being offered in the range of £150/200k a year with a house rented for him and a new car, although the car is standard for a new manager coming in from abroad.
A nice 20k stadium, crowds over double what the biggest club in Ireland get even though they're struggling and a nearly new £6 million top class training facility to train his players in. The little shiite has bankrupted more clubs (not entirely his fault I know) and always seems to land on his feet.
As I've said before, Fenlon will have been given a budget at every club he has managed. It's not his job to decide it, or question it, and if he had suddenly decided that he wasn't going to spend the cash that the money-men were throwing his way, they would quickly have replaced him with someone who would. Fenlon should be judged on his skills as a football manager, not on what went on in the boardrooms of clubs he happened to be managing.
askmehoop
27/11/2011, 11:49 PM
As I've said before, Fenlon will have been given a budget at every club he has managed. It's not his job to decide it, or question it, and if he had suddenly decided that he wasn't going to spend the cash that the money-men were throwing his way, they would quickly have replaced him with someone who would. Fenlon should be judged on his skills as a football manager, not on what went on in the boardrooms of clubs he happened to be managing.
exactly, the only person responsible for the financial mess shels found themselves in is Oillie Byrne and at Bohs the blame falls to the members , Fenlon worked on the budget agreed at board level
Hibs4Ever
28/11/2011, 8:34 AM
Fenlon worked on the budget agreed at board level
Did Fenlon not go over the budget agreed last season? Resulting in someone resigning when they found out?
As I've said before, Fenlon will have been given a budget at every club he has managed. It's not his job to decide it, or question it, and if he had suddenly decided that he wasn't going to spend the cash that the money-men were throwing his way, they would quickly have replaced him with someone who would. Fenlon should be judged on his skills as a football manager, not on what went on in the boardrooms of clubs he happened to be managing.
To a degree, but managers can't just use "they gave me the budget"/ "I'll just bury my head in the sand" excuses forever. If fans at the club, and fans in the league in general, can see there's sustainability issues around the budget, is it right to give the manager a total free pass?
citybone
28/11/2011, 9:01 AM
To a degree, but managers can't just use "they gave me the budget"/ "I'll just bury my head in the sand" excuses forever. If fans at the club, and fans in the league in general, can see there's sustainability issues around the budget, is it right to give the manager a total free pass?
Rico decided not to spend money with Cork City after the league win cos he knew we could not afford too and was right to do so. but 2006 was a disappointing season as a cork city fan in the league.
askmehoop
28/11/2011, 9:24 AM
Did Fenlon not go over the budget agreed last season? Resulting in someone resigning when they found out?
Did he have the final say on who gets what? I'm sure every financial decision has to be sanctioned by the board, every manager will ask for a few quid extra its up to the people in charge to say yes or no. I'd imagine the guy at bohs resigned due to the deciosions made by his fellow boardmembers.
marinobohs
28/11/2011, 9:30 AM
Did Fenlon not go over the budget agreed last season? Resulting in someone resigning when they found out?
No, Nutsey requested an increased budget which was signed off by the Board in the absense of the Financial Director who was on holidays. On his return he (Financial Director) felt obliged to step down. There was a number of other factors in the whole debacle but thats the nub of what happened.
Boards decide budgets and while every manager wants to maximise his budget the decision (and responsibility) is with the Board (or owner in Shels case)
horton
28/11/2011, 10:31 AM
How did last night go for ya's? any idea how much was raised?
Jofspring
28/11/2011, 11:35 AM
It may have had to be sanctioned by the board but surely Fenlon should have known himself that with the financial constraints already on the club he should never have even asked. The board member may have felt pressured to grant it.
TiocfaidhArmani
28/11/2011, 11:40 AM
Nutsy requested an increase? Would the word 'demanded' describe his request more accurately?
askmehoop
28/11/2011, 12:31 PM
Nutsy requested an increase? Would the word 'demanded' describe his request more accurately?
Sorry, didnt realise you were there. or are you just assuming he demanded it?
Nedser
29/11/2011, 12:00 AM
I agree the buck stops with the board, but it's ridiculous to suggest that Fenlon bears no responsibility whatsoever, in particular given that he requested a budget increase at a time when every man and his dog knew the club was effectively insolvent. Fenlon surely knew better than most that even the current budget was completely unsustainable, and any increase was only likely to bring the demise of our great club even closer. So even asking for an increase was outrageous. But I suppose if your main ambition is to secure a bigger job in Britain, then short term results are more important than long term stability of the club. Looks like all's well that end's well for Pat.
Charlie Darwin
29/11/2011, 12:51 AM
Does anyone know how much Fenlon asked for the budget to be increased? The club finished one place off qualifying for Europe so a small increase wasn't necessarily an imprudent investment. In any case, it's not the manager's job to watch the club's accounts and it seems petty to criticise Fenlon for doing what every other manager in the league does.
he requested a budget increase at a time when every man and his dog knew the club was effectively insolvent.
The club clearly wasn't effectively insolvent. If the club was insolvent, they should never have started the season in the first place and any request to increase the budget would be irrelevant.
Does anyone know how much Fenlon asked for the budget to be increased? The club finished one place off qualifying for Europe so a small increase wasn't necessarily an imprudent investment.
oh boy! I'd like to see if people here would have thought it a prudent investment at the time if it had been approved!! Unfortunately you cant predict the future precisely and when Bohs takes a chance it tends to get scorched - the board made the right decision in saying no. Otherwise youre spot on.
I think Fenlon simply just asked for more by the way, dont recall specifics...
Nedser
29/11/2011, 5:16 AM
Does anyone know how much Fenlon asked for the budget to be increased?
I don't know the figure. But as I said, the previously approved budget was way too high, so he should at the very least have been prepared to live with that.
The club finished one place off qualifying for Europe so a small increase wasn't necessarily an imprudent investment. In any case, it's not the manager's job to watch the club's accounts and it seems petty to criticise Fenlon for doing what every other manager in the league does.
Are you suggesting that Bohs increasing their budget so recently might have been "prudent"? Seriously?
The club clearly wasn't effectively insolvent. If the club was insolvent, they should never have started the season in the first place and any request to increase the budget would be irrelevant.
Players only got paid at the end of last season as a result of loans from supporters. We have no way of clearing a large debt with Zurich when it becomes due in a few months, without selling our main asset, and at present the general consensus is it can't be sold. That's effectively insolvency. In any case, I have no interest in getting into a semantic argument about financial terminology. The point is, as I assume you know, Bohs are in a whole world of financial trouble and have been for a quite a while now.
oh boy! I'd like to see if people here would have thought it a prudent investment at the time if it had been approved!! Unfortunately you cant predict the future precisely and when Bohs takes a chance it tends to get scorched - the board made the right decision in saying no.
Eh, I'm not an insider, but it seems to be generally accepted that the board said yes! (Although they clearly should have said no).
In any case, it's not the manager's job to watch the club's accounts and it seems petty to criticise Fenlon for doing what every other manager in the league does.
I would've thought it should be part of the managers job to be concerned about the health of the club in general though. Of course ultimate responsibility is with the board, and the manager is way down the list of those culpable, it's just the total escape of any blame is what I don't agree with. Just because most managers are like that, doesn't make it right.
pineapple stu
29/11/2011, 11:58 AM
I would've thought it should be part of the managers job to be concerned about the health of the club in general though.
Yep. That's why he's called a manager (and not a head coach).
Charlie Darwin
29/11/2011, 12:44 PM
Are you suggesting that Bohs increasing their budget so recently might have been "prudent"? Seriously?
Well, like I said, it depends on what the numbers were. A small budget increase could be the difference between a league place, getting the last European spot, getting to a cup final...
A small budget increase could be the difference between a league place, getting the last European spot, getting to a cup final...
... or tipping a club over the edge...
Charlie Darwin
29/11/2011, 1:02 PM
Like I said, it depends on the numbers involved. If Bohs were concerned with mere survival they'd have slashed their budget far more than they did, but clearly that's not what the fans or the board wanted.
MMVIII
29/11/2011, 1:37 PM
Nutsy requested an increase? Would the word 'demanded' describe his request more accurately?
Do you ever have any solid proof to your accusations and rumours or do you just talk nonsense the whole time?
TiocfaidhArmani
29/11/2011, 2:43 PM
Just what I heard down the grapevine, like how a lot of people get their info on here.
Schumi
29/11/2011, 9:32 PM
Well, like I said, it depends on what the numbers were. A small budget increase could be the difference between a league place, getting the last European spot, getting to a cup final......, qualifying for the Champions' League groups...
Eh, I'm not an insider, but it seems to be generally accepted that the board said yes! (Although they clearly should have said no).
I think we might be thinking of different things. Fenlon asked for more cash prior to the season and the board made more available. Wrong decision. Fenlon then complained a number of times and requested even more. The board said no. That was what i was talking about and what i thought the original poster was talking about...
marinobohs
02/12/2011, 9:35 AM
Nutsy requested an increase? Would the word 'demanded' describe his request more accurately?
........ yep, Nutsey raised himself up to all 5" 7 and DEMANDED that 6/7 grown men cave in to his demands. Rumours that automatic weapons were used in the dramtic stand off are, however, a slight exaggeration :rolleyes:
TiocfaidhArmani
06/12/2011, 3:49 PM
........ yep, Nutsey raised himself up to all 5" 7 and DEMANDED that 6/7 grown men cave in to his demands. Rumours that automatic weapons were used in the dramtic stand off are, however, a slight exaggeration :rolleyes:
That's what I heard and all, you must have the same source as me. The plot thickens....:p
marinobohs
08/12/2011, 9:39 AM
That's what I heard and all, you must have the same source as me. The plot thickens....:p
Oh crikey TA, you know the shams mole too ? :cool::cool:
Club statement: Agreement with Zurich Bank (http://www.bohemians.ie/news/4-club-news/1461-2011-12-14-club-statement-re-agreement-with-zurich-bank.html)
http://www.bohemians.ie/images/M_images/emailButton.png (http://www.bohemians.ie/component/mailto/?tmpl=component&link=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5ib2hlbWlhbnMuaWUvbmV3cy80LWNsd WItbmV3cy8xNDYxLTIwMTEtMTItMTQtY2x1Yi1zdGF0ZW1lbnQ tcmUtYWdyZWVtZW50LXdpdGgtenVyaWNoLWJhbmsuaHRtbA%3D %3D)
Bohemian FC has agreed with Zurich Bank a restructuring of the club’s loan. Under this arrangement, interest payments are rolled up into the final payment of the €4 million-plus debt and the date for settlement will be reviewed in June 2012, when the current agreement matures.
Bohemian FC will grant to Zurich Bank a charge on Dalymount Park. This is the third charge on the property and Zurich Bank will be repaid, like the other secured creditors, on the sale of the ground.
If there is a shortfall after the property is sold and the other secured creditors are paid, Zurich Bank will not seek to have Bohemian Football Club wound-up.
Zurich has undertaken to work with the club and its property and legal advisers with a view to managing the disposal of the property in an orderly fashion with minimum disruption to the club’s activities.
“This agreement allows Bohemians to prepare for next season knowing that our largest creditor will not in the short term be seeking payment of the debt to them,” said club president Chris Brien.
“We urge supporters to buy season tickets and membership for 2012 now that this uncertainty has been removed.”
The new arrangements were outlined to club members at a meeting tonight (14th December) and were approved by that meeting.
Last Updated on Wednesday, 14 December 2011 22:15
Longfordian
14/12/2011, 9:37 PM
Allows them to go ahead and plan for next season I guess but in the long run they don't sound too confident of having much left over after the sale of Dalymount, if somebody actually goes ahead and buys it.
mastershake
14/12/2011, 10:39 PM
Long term I think Bohs are in serious trouble.If someone does come in with a bid for dalymount they'll receive very little for it now and they'd have to ground share with the likes of Pats or somethin in the future which would be a disaster.
For both nostalgic and practical reasons I think the FAI must seriously consider bidding for dalymount and develop it as a stadium for both Bohemians and shelbourne (considering they too will be out on the arse) and youth international teams.
I cant see anything else workin here
Longfordian
14/12/2011, 10:42 PM
The FAI have enough trouble meeting their existing commitments never mind taking more on. Can't see them getting involved.
A face
20/12/2011, 9:39 PM
I think football in Ireland needs a civic trust of some sorts to take control on some of the grounds. Losing Dalyer to a property developer is actually unreal when you think about it. The Gerry's at Bohs have alot to answer for.
Nedser
21/12/2011, 12:31 AM
Losing Dalyer to a property developer is actually unreal when you think about it. The Gerry's at Bohs have alot to answer for.
To be fair, the concept of selling to a developer for a vast amount of money was not in itself a bad idea. I agree it will be sad if/when Dalyer goes, but these things happen, and Bohs just don't have the means to maintain a ground purely based on nostalgia or historical importance. The transaction to sell Dalyer could and should have been completed during the boom years, and if that had happened, and Bohs were now the proud owners of a modern all seater stadium, with a huge amount of cash in the bank, I don't think many would be looking back and saying that it was all a mistake.
The mistakes lay in how it was all handled, which resulted in delays, court cases and ultimately it all collapsing. And of course the biggest mistake of all was spending money before they actually received it.
I think football in Ireland needs a civic trust of some sorts to take control on some of the grounds. Losing Dalyer to a property developer is actually unreal when you think about it. The Gerry's at Bohs have alot to answer for.
In some ways owning an asset is, or at least should be, a control on a club though. No just walking away from debts after an examinership process, which is open to clubs renting ground.
And there wasn't anything really wrong with Bohs plan. It was more the upfront spending they did on the foot of it, which a more robust licencing system could and should be able to tackle.
BonnieShels
21/12/2011, 8:49 AM
I remember when the deal with Liam Carroll was announced and thought that a shrewed Bohs would see it through now that they were set up forever. But of course the Irish mentality kicked in. A shame.
Sean South
21/12/2011, 9:00 AM
I think football in Ireland needs a civic trust of some sorts to take control on some of the grounds. Losing Dalyer to a property developer is actually unreal when you think about it. The Gerry's at Bohs have alot to answer for.
The Showgrounds is held in trust.
I think football in Ireland needs a civic trust of some sorts to take control on some of the grounds. Losing Dalyer to a property developer is actually unreal when you think about it. The Gerry's at Bohs have alot to answer for.
Who would make up the civic trust? Bohs have always been a members' club, and have always made their own decisions.
marinobohs
21/12/2011, 9:55 AM
Who would make up the civic trust? Bohs have always been a members' club, and have always made their own decisions.
Actually, the membership structure at Bohs was probobly a factor in the amateur handling that mucked up the Danninger deal (and possibly Bohs future).
Democracy not a lot of use if those elected withhold information and/or misuse authority (either deliberately or just through stupidly)
Debate for another time but, trust me, membership structure can cause as many problems as it solves.
A face
21/12/2011, 10:03 AM
Who would make up the civic trust?
Well thats the thing, we dont have someone with huge amounts of money waiting in the wings. My thinking is that it should be an aspect of football that clubs dont have to worry about. Clubs should be allowed to focus on running clubs and developing players and staff etc. Having the added stress of losing the ground and more often than not the place where clubs are run from is detracting from the game.
Who would make up the civic trust? Interested parties, stakeholders, it would take a bit of effort if it were just fans etc. but something like NLU would have to do it really, and they make a small percentage for the gates, fund raising and use this to take over the upkeep of the stadiums.
Its obviously wishful thinking because we're miles away from being organised enough to implement something like that, i'm merely pointing it out and suggesting its something that is needed. So many clubs going to the wall and we lose the asset then.
I always thought the idea of a Irish Celebs v Ex Irish Internationals would be a great annual fundraiser and something the trust could run each year in one of the grounds.
Dodge
21/12/2011, 10:32 AM
Who would make up the civic trust? Interested parties, stakeholders, it would take a bit of effort if it were just fans etc.
But who vets these interested parties? PLayers reps? Chairman? Aren't these some of the peopel you hate having a say in Irish football
So many clubs going to the wall and we lose the asset then.
Bohs didn't lose an asset. They sold it (mulitple times) and wasted the proceeds
Debate for another time but, trust me, membership structure can cause as many problems as it solves.
That was exactly my point
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