View Full Version : Bohs in financial trouble - FAI Licencing called into question again?
WoodquayBoy
13/01/2011, 2:55 PM
the implications of an attempt by 2 individuals (and only 2) to wipe this all out!
You mean 3 individuals, as McGuinness is, from what I can see, encouraging them to take this action.
There is fault on both sides, the 2 players for taking such legal yet drastic action over unpaid wages, and the club for allowing the situation arise where such a relatively small amnount of money threatens its very existence.
Can see the players' point of view, they obviously feel they have exhausted every other avenue, but there are apparently 8 others who are owed money and are not going down the route the Dayler Duo are, so maybe the last resort of High Court action doesn't need to be activated yet?
I despair as to how Bohs fans can feel that their club is hard done by when the players gave them plenty of opportunity to sort things..
can somebody explain to me what the bolded part here means? Ive read this quite a bit over the last couple of pages and im struggling to figure out what these opportunities are. Applying to have the club wound up is not providing the club with plent of opportunity, its actually reducing the amount of opportunity the club has.
And, looking at the facts, there are only 8 out of 10 players willing to give the club the opportunity to sort this out to both sides satisfaction. This issue is about 2 players, not all.
pineapple stu
13/01/2011, 3:07 PM
The players told the club three weeks ago they'd take this action if they weren't paid by yesterday. So the club had three weeks to raise and pay what you claim is a small amount. Despite all the fundraising going on at Bohs, including receiving cash from the FAI, and despite how they can, it appears, pay Paddy Madden (cos otherwise they couldn't be looking for a fee for him), Bohs didn't pay these players.
The players told the club three weeks ago they'd take this action if they weren't paid by yesterday. So the club had three weeks to raise and pay what you claim is a small amount. Despite all the fundraising going on at Bohs, including receiving cash from the FAI, and despite how they can, it appears, pay Paddy Madden (cos otherwise they couldn't be looking for a fee for him), Bohs didn't pay these players.
I take issue with your constant assertion that we "received cash" from the FAI.It's called prizemoney not a dig out.
No one has questioned why it only seems to be two of the ten that are unsatisfied with the clubs attempts to resolve the situation.Ever think these two might be a little trigger happy.
Not sure if you are in business Stu but if I threatended to wind up a company every time they didn't pay me for 6 weeks then I would spend a hell of a lot of time int he High Court.There are procedures for these things and these two players (and again I stresss just two) have jumped from step 1 to the final step by issuing this order.
OneForTheFuture
13/01/2011, 3:12 PM
How much time should Bohs be given to settle those debts?
If I was behind on my mortgage because my employers failed to pay me I don't think I could wait 6 or 12 months for it.
The players told the club three weeks ago they'd take this action if they weren't paid by yesterday. So the club had three weeks to raise and pay what you claim is a small amount. Despite all the fundraising going on at Bohs, including receiving cash from the FAI, and despite how they can, it appears, pay Paddy Madden (cos otherwise they couldn't be looking for a fee for him), Bohs didn't pay these players.
Im not claiming it is a small amount. Stephen McGuinness made that claim.
Of all the fundraising going on at Bohs the amount of money received from the FAI would, i believe, only be a fraction of that. To highlight that is doing a disservice to the efforts of the fans and members and club over the last 3 months. Only you know whether that is deliberate or not.
And i still dont see how Shelley and Grey applying for the club to be wound up has given the club "plenty of opportunity" as is claimed by some. As i said previously it is actually the total opposite.
OneForTheFuture
13/01/2011, 3:15 PM
They ARE just 2 blokes not trading companies!?!
pineapple stu
13/01/2011, 3:16 PM
I take issue with your constant assertion that we "received cash" from the FAI.It's called prizemoney not a dig out.
What does it matter what it's called? You received cash; that's what's important.
Not sure if you are in business Stu but if I threatended to wind up a company every time they didn't pay me for 6 weeks then I would spend a hell of a lot of time int he High Court.
How often have you been left six weeks without pay then?
How much time sholu Bohs be given to settle those debts?
that is something that the group of players gets to decide, notwithstanding that there is a license issue at play also. For 2 players to break ranks so they could have their money before travelling to Australia is not what a Unionised environment is about.
pineapple stu
13/01/2011, 3:18 PM
And i still dont see how Shelley and Grey applying for the club to be wound up has given the club "plenty of opportunity" as is claimed by some. As i said previously it is actually the total opposite.
Because you still keep ignoring the fact that the players threatened this three weeks ago. So there's three weeks' notice to pay for starters. Not to mention that signing the contract back at the start of last year should have been notice enough.
I don't see what relevance the proportion of cash raised the FAI amount has to your post. It's all cash; it all helps.
History and tradtition mean a lot at a club like Bohs but then again maybe a UCD "fan" might not understand the implications of an attempt by 2 individuals (and only 2) to wipe this all out!
You can’t seriously think they actually want to wipe you out? They want their money. They get that, they don’t care.
No one has questioned why it only seems to be two of the ten that are unsatisfied with the clubs attempts to resolve the situation.Ever think these two might be a little trigger happy.
Not sure if you are in business Stu but if I threatended to wind up a company every time they didn't pay me for 6 weeks then I would spend a hell of a lot of time int he High Court.There are procedures for these things and these two players (and again I stresss just two) have jumped from step 1 to the final step by issuing this order.
Of course they’re trigger happy. But its pretty clear that they’ve every reason in the world not to give Bohs even more time. Step 1 – ask for payment on time step 2 – request it again a month later step 3 – ask again another month later step 4 – threaten to sue hoping to embarrass them into it. What step is missing?
Jesus lads, stop trying to make out like it’s a mad conspiracy. The players are owed money and the deserve to get paid by Bohs. Everything else is waffle
Bohs have been stalling the players for 3 months so its hardly the players fault.
geezer
13/01/2011, 3:21 PM
there are a lot of people bleeding the game dry for supplemental income not the good of the game. They all claim to be whiter than white and they do if for the jersey, club, community or whatever such ****** its for the shillings and nothing else. No one should go without if its due but the salaries, expenses in this league for administrators, referees, players and coaches are in certain cases sheer lunacy when you look at the income.
pineapple stu
13/01/2011, 3:24 PM
They all claim to be whiter than white and they do if for the jersey, club, community or whatever such ******
Who claimed that?
Because you still keep ignoring the fact that the players threatened this three weeks ago. So there's three weeks' notice to pay for starters. Not to mention that signing the contract back at the start of last year should have been notice enough..
No. You are ignoring the very simple fact that setting a deadline for payment within 3 weeks is not "giving every opportunity" as some here have claimed.
Did the Cork players apply to have Cork wound up by the way does anyone know? When they werent getting paid and yet still being expected to play? I know they threatened strike action at the time but i dont remember McGuinness encouraging them to apply for a winding up order then.
pineapple stu
13/01/2011, 3:33 PM
Did you read Dodge's post as well? Bohs are in absolutely no position whatsoever to be complaining.
Bohs have been stalling the players for 3 months so its hardly the players fault.
They are due 6 weeks pay not 3 months.
How often have you been left six weeks without pay then?
Quite often actually.It's called being self employed.If you get paid for a job within 6 weeks its a surprise.
Footballers are effectively self employed with all the benefits of a PAYE worker.
anyway this way off the original point I wanted to make.I agree the players deserve to be paid.We made the contracts with them we should honour them.My issue is that these guys are pulling the trigger on a business without giving it the requisite time to meet it obligations.Don't try to tell me 6 weeks is a sufficient time period to give them because anyone who knows anything about business knows its not.
My final point is this.If these two are so right to be doing as they are doing, why then isnt this the stance of all ten.Why haven't they put up a united front on this?Simple answer is because the other 8 are reasonable and understand they will get paid but it will just take a little longer than previously hoped.
eelmonster
13/01/2011, 3:39 PM
They are due 6 weeks pay not 3 months.
When was the last time they were paid? Bohs are completely in the wrong here, they haven't a leg to stand on, you've got to pay your players, coaches and barmen chaps.
When was the last time they were paid? Bohs
They were paid on Nov 30th.
Did you read Dodge's post as well? Bohs are in absolutely no position whatsoever to be complaining.
i dont think the club is complaining very much at all. Theyve just asked to be given time to raise all the money for all the players.
I am complaining though. Definitely.
When was the last time they were paid? Bohs are completely in the wrong here, they haven't a leg to stand on, you've got to pay your players, coaches and barmen chaps.
yep. We know that and we are going to. Thanks for the advice though.
anyone got an answer on the Cork question? I genuinely dont know if the players who werent paid ever issued winding up notice..
eelmonster
13/01/2011, 3:46 PM
yep. We know that and we are going to. Thanks for the advice though.
No probs, you should have given me a shout in November and you could have avoided this nasty business altogether.
we'll know where to go next time! ;)
Spudulika
13/01/2011, 3:48 PM
I was concerned about this matter to start with for the sake of a club that I had always seen as local - I went to school just down from Dalymount and have been a regular visitor to the ground since I was 3 years old. However the attitude of some "fans" of the club here and on the Bohs forum just drags away any positive feeling a well meaning neutral can have for them. I can honestly claim to come from an angle that few others who seem bent on railing against. I played for an Irish club's reserve side (in the old LOI Reserve League) and was diddled out of expenses because they were too cheap and sneaky to be honest. I went to play professionally abroad and the club I went to went bust the month before I arrived. I had a full 2 year contract with them and like other players was offered the chance to become a free agent or take compensation. Instead I went to play for a 1/6th of the wage and coached the side as we struggled to stay alive. I was then transferred to a full pro side in the same country who absolutely betrayed my goodwill and used me as a makeweight in a deal to give more money to another player. I ended up spending 3 nights sleeping in a bus station and then thumbing lifts back to my adopted home town as I was too broke to afford the price of a coffee and too embarrassed and ashamed to admit I'd been ripped off so badly. I had no recourse to make them pa up my legally signed contract or even my owed wages.
Since then I've been acutely aware of not busting the bank to make something happen when others are involved, and have always stood for players/athletes rights, within reason. Last season in the club I worked at I saw players go without wages for months and be made feel like they should be grateful to "wear the sacred shirt", well I'm sorry, but this is crap. If you want to carry on like this go sign for a junior C hurling side, don't pretend that just because of history and success that a club deserves to survive just because of a name. And do not make out that players are jumping the gun, pulling the trigger early or betraying the cause by asking for what they're due. And most sickening of all, do not claim that the players want their money before they go to Australia or elsewhere. What the heck has this to do with anything? They're entitled to this, they went out playing for your club and putting in the hours so why shouldn't they be paid.
"Fans" are always ready to rant about players being greedy, but this is nonsense. If they sign a contract, honour it. Warning signs were there last year when Bohs went on a signing spree. They gambled, they lost, they're to be treated like any other business who did the same. I do not want to see any club go under, especially a club which mean so much to Irish football, though history and sentiment needs to be removed from it all. The club didn't pay their bills on time, they've received money that is theirs and their supporters are raising funds to help the club survive. Now it's up to the administrators to take a hard decision. If they can't pay, face the consequences, don't target those who are without as being the cause.
anyone got an answer on the Cork question? I genuinely dont know if the players who werent paid ever issued winding up notice..
I seem to recall that Gareth Farrelly lobbed one in at some stage?
Bit unfair Spudulika, can I refer you to the above
anyway this way off the original point I wanted to make.I agree the players deserve to be paid.We made the contracts with them we should honour them.
pineapple stu
13/01/2011, 3:59 PM
Quite often actually.It's called being self employed.If you get paid for a job within 6 weeks its a surprise.
If you invoice people and say that invoices are due within 30 days, then that's a different matter to being told you'll be paid each week/month, and planning financially on that basis. Do you think the players' banks are saying "Sure hold off on the mortgage/credit card payments; we know Bohs are just waiting for the money"
SkStu - if you seem to agree that Bohs have no right to complain, I hardly see how you personally have a right to complain. Like it or not, the fans - of any club - are probably the least affected in these scenarios, though they like to think they're more important than they really are at times.
shantykelly
13/01/2011, 4:06 PM
Stu, whether the cork players at the time threatened a winding up order is irrelevant. these two players didnt and dont play for cork; they aren't bound by any precedent. and some folks seem so sure that mcguinness pushed these two into the legal route - any evidence? they're big lads, they could have decided it themselves.
whether he agrees with it or nor, mcguinness is their union rep and if they are paid up members, then he has to support them in their (admittedly not nice but still justifiable) grievance action against their employer.
if bohs goes tits up, it isnt really shelley and grey's fault, they only signed the contracts, they didnt write them. and if that happens, then im sure you could expect to see mcguinness representing the other members of the union. its not logical, but then little about sport and politics is, especially in ireland.
two employees of an under pressure company want paid for the previous 6 weeks. thats a long time if you're getting paid weekly, and if it was me, i would follow whatever recourse i felt was necessary. they arent fans or supporters, they're employees of the club. you mightnt like the stance that they are taking, but the actions of the club have made it a perfectly legitimate course of action to follow.
quick question as i genuinely don't know - did the bohs players also take a pay cut during the year? or am i getting confused (again)?
pineapple stu
13/01/2011, 4:10 PM
quick question as i genuinely don't know - did the bohs players also take a pay cut during the year? or am i getting confused (again)?
I think they took a pay cut in exchange for a contract extension at the start of last season.
SkStu - if you seem to agree that Bohs have no right to complain, I hardly see how you personally have a right to complain. Like it or not, the fans - of any club - are probably the least affected in these scenarios, though they like to think they're more important than they really are at times.
Of course we, fans, are the least affected by all such matters but surely we are allowed to complain even when we mightnt be fully right in doing so - complain about bad decisions, bad defending, bad goals, bad players, bad owners, bad managers etc etc. I thought thats what alot of being a fan was about.
but, i should probably just go back to being silent on this thread as i did for the past few weeks/months and allow everything to go unchallenged.
pineapple stu
13/01/2011, 4:17 PM
Of course we, fans, are the least affected by all such matters but surely we are allowed to complain even when we mightnt be fully right in doing so - complain about bad decisions, bad defending, bad goals, bad players, bad owners, bad managers etc etc. I thought thats what alot of being a fan was about.
Being a fan doesn't involve complaining about absolutely everything. Sometimes it involves looking at the bigger picture. As Dodge outlined more succinctly than I did, the players have acted perfectly reasonably. I think it's a disgrace that you're complaining about players looking for what they're due in the current day and age. The players are still technically in employment, so I'd imagine they can't even sign on. They've gone since before Christmas without pay, which presumably affected their holiday period. It's utterly, utterly selfish of you to complain about the players looking out for themselves at the expense of a club which has long been so incompetently managed.
Stu, whether the cork players at the time threatened a winding up order is irrelevant. these two players didnt and dont play for cork; they aren't bound by any precedent. and some folks seem so sure that mcguinness pushed these two into the legal route - any evidence? they're big lads, they could have decided it themselves.
whether he agrees with it or nor, mcguinness is their union rep and if they are paid up members, then he has to support them in their (admittedly not nice but still justifiable) grievance action against their employer.
if bohs goes tits up, it isnt really shelley and grey's fault, they only signed the contracts, they didnt write them. and if that happens, then im sure you could expect to see mcguinness representing the other members of the union. its not logical, but then little about sport and politics is, especially in ireland.
two employees of an under pressure company want paid for the previous 6 weeks. thats a long time if you're getting paid weekly, and if it was me, i would follow whatever recourse i felt was necessary. they arent fans or supporters, they're employees of the club. you mightnt like the stance that they are taking, but the actions of the club have made it a perfectly legitimate course of action to follow.
like btid1, i dont disagree that the players arent entitled to their wages. We cannot honour the contracts for these 10 players for next season therefore we are trying to buy them out of their contracts and allow them to sign elsewhere without losing too much.
Of course the 2 players are entitled to do what they have done but i dont like it and i dont think it is right. I dont like that McGuinness has encouraged them to do this to the possible detriment to the other 8 or to the possible detriment of the 2 in question. By encouraging and/or endorsing the approach of Shelley and Grey he has failed his duty as a union rep to look after and bargain the best deal for the collective.
Being a fan doesn't involve complaining about absolutely everything. Sometimes it involves looking at the bigger picture. As Dodge outlined more succinctly than I did, the players have acted perfectly reasonably. I think it's a disgrace that you're complaining about players looking for what they're due in the current day and age. The players are still technically in employment, so I'd imagine they can't even sign on. They've gone since before Christmas without pay, which presumably affected their holiday period. It's utterly, utterly selfish of you to complain about the players looking out for themselves at the expense of a club which has long been so incompetently managed.
cool.
horton
13/01/2011, 4:22 PM
How come Bohs got their league money but Derry didn't a year ago?was it just because we had dual contracts were as Bohs have a simple cashflow problem? (Genuine question, not trying to bait anyone)
Spudulika
13/01/2011, 4:23 PM
Bit unfair Spudulika, can I refer you to the above
Pint taken Stu, but overall (not just on the rather more fanatic fans forum) the sentiment is against everyone, as well as the club administration. As a former pro I respect the players for doing what they're doing, if more players did, and were open about it, then you'd find that clubs would soon start copping on and trying to pay proper wages (ie lower) that are more realistic. At least I'd like to think so. Bohs can make themselves a standard bearer in this regard.
Pint taken Stu, but overall (not just on the rather more fanatic fans forum) the sentiment is against everyone, as well as the club administration. As a former pro I respect the players for doing what they're doing, if more players did, and were open about it, then you'd find that clubs would soon start copping on and trying to pay proper wages (ie lower) that are more realistic. At least I'd like to think so. Bohs can make themselves a standard bearer in this regard.
but if more players did it, Spud, there wouldnt be many clubs left. And really it should only be done as a very last resort in my opinion. And these players werent open about it. How and ever, i dont want to keep repeating myself and i get that there is another argument on the side of the players.
However, as soon as this mess sorts itself out, and i believe it will, and if we survive the rest of the messes ahead i am really hopeful that we will become the standard bearers you talk about. There is no other viable option for any club.
The players should be paid what they were promised. If they end up getting ripped off by even one cent then they are entitled and correct to do whatever they can to get what they are owed.
pineapple stu
13/01/2011, 4:43 PM
but if more players did it, Spud, there wouldnt be many clubs left.
You realise clubs going broke and not being able to pay wages isn't the norm, yeah? It's more common than it ought to be, but it's far from the norm.
PartySaint
13/01/2011, 5:00 PM
From Dan McDonnells twitter
'It's out there now that Brian Shelley and Stephen Gray are the two players pursuing action against Bohs...'
The Lep
13/01/2011, 5:12 PM
Whats happened to the money raised so far? Thought there was over €200000 raised . Has that money been spent on something else? why couldnt all the players be paid out of that money first? Is the board still being paid a wage ?
Magicme
13/01/2011, 5:36 PM
but if more players did it, Spud, there wouldnt be many clubs left. And really it should only be done as a very last resort in my opinion. And these players werent open about it. How and ever, i dont want to keep repeating myself and i get that there is another argument on the side of the players.
However, as soon as this mess sorts itself out, and i believe it will, and if we survive the rest of the messes ahead i am really hopeful that we will become the standard bearers you talk about. There is no other viable option for any club.
Hold the phone but the bit highlighted is bull. They are doing it as a last resort and they were open about it. They declared weeks ago to the club and it was put in the public domain that they were going to take court action if the matter wasnt resovled. How in the name of Jehovah is that not being open?
Before you accuse me of dancing at the wake, it pains me greatly to see any club in trouble. I have said time and again that all clubs are one big fecker of a bill away from facing similar problems. Every clubs level of what would push them into this kinda scenario is different but there is no room for anyone to gloat. That said, Bohs have had an opportunity some weeks ago and even before the players started pushing for their wages, they should have seen this situation arising and prepared for it and sorted things before it got this far.
Confirmation that the court proceedings have been initiated: http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/2011/0113/1224287470078.html
danthesaint
13/01/2011, 5:48 PM
How are budgets for 2011 season done??
Is it based on money forecasted for the 2011 season or money received from the 2010 season?
bingoballs
13/01/2011, 5:50 PM
Like it or not, the fans - of any club - are probably the least affected in these scenarios, though they like to think they're more important than they really are at times.
Football is nothing without fans
Hold the phone but the bit highlighted is bull. They are doing it as a last resort and they were open about it. They declared weeks ago to the club and it was put in the public domain that they were going to take court action if the matter wasnt resovled. How in the name of Jehovah is that not being open?
huh? maybe because they wouldnt allow their names to be released. That is not being open. And that is what Spudulika seemed to be referring to.
Also, it is not the last resort for 8/10 of the players who are owed so what makes these two so special? Perhaps a bit of spending money before they get paid for their new jobs in Australia ( http://www.thecourier.com.au/news/local/sport/general/ballarat-red-devils-sign-irish-premier-league-player/2046042.aspx ). Oh no wait, he just released a statement saying he actually DIDNT have a new job in Australia. Shady.
Magicme
13/01/2011, 5:54 PM
I dont blame them for not wanting their names in the public domain but the matter was open. As for the other players, maybe they have managed to secure other means of paying their bills and are not under so much pressure, or maybe they decided to let the other 2 pave the way. It was obviously a last resort for the 2 lads who chose this route coz they are unlikely to put themselves in this position, and possibly ruin their chances of playing in Ireland again, if they had no choice.
Captain2007
13/01/2011, 6:00 PM
How are budgets for 2011 season done??
Is it based on money forecasted for the 2011 season or money received from the 2010 season?
Lotto Numbers, Chairman picks any number and promises the sun, moon and stars to the Manager & Players, UEFA Licence a load of b.....x. when it comes to LOI.
The Lep
13/01/2011, 6:03 PM
If any bohs fans on here wasnt being paid the right wage in their employment ,they wouldnt hesitate in bringing a case to the Labour court through their union so i cant see why they should have an issue with any player going down the same route. Blame the powers that be at Bohemian Fc and not the players who havent been paid the money they are owed and have bills to pay like the rest of us.
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