View Full Version : Bohs in financial trouble - FAI Licencing called into question again?
my understanding is once there is a settlement on the future portion of the contracts (and arrears), all the players become free agents.
Once they sign with someone else, they no longer are entitled to the future portion (no loss of earnings) but would still be entitled to arrears to date. That is what Shelley and Grey are looking for as they want to move. But they also want to be part of the settlement for the future portion of the contract, hence Shelleys denial in the press yesterday that he had signed which is why i claimed it as shady.
Both sides are playing a game but it will be sorted out.
Given the groundswell against me should clarify that i do think Shelley and Grey are entitled to choose this route (i never said otherwise), they may be right from their own perspective about what they have done but, as a Bohs fan, i am disappointed in Shelley to do this. I am disgusted with Grey. Despite the rights or wrongs of the issue, i dont have to like it.
Never claimed that.Just questioned the MO of the two boys as compared to the other 8.
They want their money now, the others are prepared to wait. Not that hard to understand
They want their money now, the others are prepared to wait. Not that hard to understand
Do you understand what MO means?
It's not their goal I question, it their methods of achieving their goal I am questioning.
osarusan
14/01/2011, 2:41 PM
Both sides are playing a game but it will be sorted out.
This is certainly true, but I can't understand why Bohs are playing this game. What have they got to gain from deciding not to pay the two players who aren't willing to wait? I can't see how the current approach benefits them at all.
Longfordian
14/01/2011, 2:44 PM
I can see why Bohs would be in no mood to help out Shelley or Gray ahead of the rest but once they've gone to court I can't see any way you're not going to be stuck with their legal fees, probably another couple of grand on top of what you owe them at this stage, more if there's more than one court date.
Do you understand what MO means?
It's not their goal I question, it their methods of achieving their goal I am questioning.
And I'm making the point that the method is immaterial. Bosh owe the money, and they want it. As simple as that
Bohs statement tells you exactly why they're unwilling to settle with these 2
They money raised through recent debenture scheme is beig held in escrow until a) an agreement is reached with all players and b) the get a premier division license.
Suggests that there's no cash available to Bohs. Also would scare the bejesus out of me if I was a Bohs fan. basically putting the future of the club in the hands of licensing?
Ezeikial
14/01/2011, 2:58 PM
Bohs statement tells you exactly why they're unwilling to settle with these 2
Are you refering to this statement on the Bohs website?[/URL] http://www.bohemians.ie/images/M_images/emailButton.png (http://www.bohemians.ie/news/4-club-news/1030-club-update-for-members-and-supporters.html)
[url]http://www.bohemians.ie/news/4-club-news/1030-club-update-for-members-and-supporters.html
Club update for members and supporter (http://www.bohemians.ie/news/4-club-news/1030-club-update-for-members-and-supporters.html)
Bohemian FC wishes to clarify that it is not the subject of an order of the High Court winding up the club.
Media reports have today (14th January) disclosed the identity of the parties in a possible action against Bohemian FC. The club can similarly confirm that the parties concerned are Mr Steven Gray and Mr Brian Shelley.
We can also confirm that we are in a position to vehemently defend any potential action to place the club into liquidation. Both the PFAI and the parties' legal representative have been informed of this.
Bohemian FC has taken legal advice from Warren Parkes Solicitors on this matter. For obvious reasons, it would be imprudent for the club to make any further comment at this juncture. We would also appeal to our supporters to exercise similar restraint in their comments.
Bohemian FC expresses its sincere thanks to all members and supporters who have 'dug deep' to help the club at this difficult time. The recently marketed loan scheme (http://www.bohemians.ie/news/4-club-news/1025-loan-scheme-revised.html) was formed to assist the club and we are very optimistic that your continued support will address those difficulties and help us to build a solid foundation for the future of the club.
As you may be aware, in the interests of both the lenders and the club, loans given by members and supporters are being paid directly into a solicitor's client account. These funds will become available to the club if and when the preconditions, as set out in the terms and conditions of the loan scheme agreement, are met.
Please note that funds will not be made available to the club until these conditions are met. If the requisites are not met, the funds will be returned to the lenders under the terms of the loan agreement.
Details of the loan scheme are available here (http://www.bohemians.ie/news/4-club-news/1025-loan-scheme-revised.html). We encourage all supporters of the club to participate.
The club is committed to keeping its supporters up-to-date regarding any developments in this matter. We will post further information here on bohemians.ie at regular intervals.
marinobohs
14/01/2011, 3:02 PM
That's fair enough, I've been wrong in my post.
But as pointed out, the players can't sue over a buyout of their contract, only for wages owed. That, apparently, is around 4 grand (each, or altogether, I don't know). Are you really telling me Bohs don't have that much to pay these two players and make the winding-up order go away?
If 8,000 would settle it believe you me it would have been settled long ago. For reasons of confidentiality I dont want to go into details about the discussions still ongoing (unlike that clown Mc Guinness) but it is definite that the players are seeking more than the pay due to date.
If bohs had the resources to resolve this why would they not do so ? Given our past form (worse form than we have at SDCC stadium :rolleyes:) the last place we would want to end up in would be the courts. Suffice to say I expect the issue will be finalised prior to any court hearing unfortunately not so sure what that ending will be.
By the way I understand the two players (Shelley and Grey) are having a press conference on Monday to put across "their" point of view.
Ezeikial
14/01/2011, 3:03 PM
This bit gave me a chuckle....
For obvious reasons, it would be imprudent for the club to make any further comment at this juncture. We would also appeal to our supporters to exercise similar restraint in their comments.
pineapple stu
14/01/2011, 3:07 PM
So Bohs can't get a licence until they pay players' wages, and can't pay players' wages until they get a licence?
First time we've seen such circular logic since...well, Cork this time last year. What a great league!
marinobohs
14/01/2011, 3:07 PM
This bit gave me a chuckle....
....Lets hope the two boys dont go for a pint around D7 over the weekend :cool:
marinobohs
14/01/2011, 3:10 PM
So Bohs can't get a licence until they pay players' wages, and can't pay players' wages until they get a licence?
First time we've seen such circular logic since...well, Cork this time last year. What a great league!
Clubs dont need to have paid players to apply for a licence (or indeed get one) simply have reached agreement with the players. But dont let the facts..........:rolleyes:
pineapple stu
14/01/2011, 3:11 PM
It's fairly clear there won't be any agreement reached while you don't have any money.
It's fairly clear there won't be any agreement reached while you don't have any money.
really? Explain that to me.
pineapple stu
14/01/2011, 3:35 PM
Bohs have made an offer and aren't moving. The players want more and aren't moving. Bohs don't have more. Not really that difficult.
Also, Bohs saying they're not subject to a winding-up order? Is this Comical Ali on speed, or what happened yesterday?
They're right though. The winding up order hasn't been made. Maybe they're reacting to people who contacted them thinking it was.
Spudulika
14/01/2011, 3:53 PM
Is it just me or might we see Bohs going the way of Cork City? The leadership of both clubs (not just the recognised lead face) left/leaves a massive amount to be desired, which can only point to melt down. I hope to goodness I'm wrong, seriously wrong.
Ezeikial
14/01/2011, 4:44 PM
So Bohs can't get a licence until they pay players' wages, and can't pay players' wages until they get a licence?
Is this actually the case? If the cut off period is to end November in relation to football debts, and Bohs have paid everyone up to that point.........
Bohs have made an offer and aren't moving. The players want more and aren't moving. Bohs don't have more. Not really that difficult.
you said we dont have any money. We do. Read the statement again. Then you say we made an offer (just after saying we dont have any money).
Given that you now have conceded that we do have money, just because the offer is not enough for what the players are looking for doesnt mean that a deal wont be made in the future i.e. the club offers more money or the players accept the latest offer.
Pretty simple i would have thought.
sundance kid
14/01/2011, 6:21 PM
Serious question for Bohs fans,
If all of this carry on that has occured recently (and try to put aside who's right, wrong etc)was able to happen because of a few weeks wages and a couple of disgruntled employees, how confident can you possibly be that the people running bohs will be able to handle things, when the really big boys come looking for their money? Looking from the outside, and obviously i have no access to the full picture, i'd really fear for your future. There's only so many times roddy can sell his medal, and kevin hunt can donate a jersey etc, and as we all know this country is on its knees financially.
no one is under any illusions SK. All Bohs fans are very fearful for our future but we've made our bed and now have just got to get on with getting on as best as we can. We cant just be doom and gloom and give up. Nor should the Board stop fighting for the best outcomes it can get from each challenge. The Board presented a staged strategy to the members to get out of this and put ourselves on solid ground and then build again. I hope it works. Thats all i can say about the matter. Even if it does work, its going to be YEARS before we are a force again but as long as we survive ill be happy.
Regarding the latest matter, the press release explains why the players cannot and have not yet received the money they are owed.
osarusan
14/01/2011, 7:32 PM
Regarding the latest matter, the press release explains why the players cannot and have not yet received the money they are owed.
For convenience, the latest press release says this:
The recently marketed loan scheme was formed to assist the club and we are very optimistic that your continued support will address those difficulties and help us to build a solid foundation for the future of the club.
As you may be aware, in the interests of both the lenders and the club, loans given by members and supporters are being paid directly into a solicitor's client account. These funds will become available to the club if and when the preconditions, as set out in the terms and conditions of the loan scheme agreement, are met.
Please note that funds will not be made available to the club until these conditions are met. If the requisites are not met, the funds will be returned to the lenders under the terms of the loan agreement.
And the terms that need to be met are these:
Funds received will only be released to Bohemian FC if:
1. We have accumulated sufficient funds to meet the requirements to fund the buy-out of player contracts and pre-fund the contracts of remaining players under contract (currently estimated at approx. €300,000).
2. Agreed deal with players secures the club a licence to play in the Airtricity Premier Division in 2011.
In the event that both 1. and 2. above are not achieved, all funds will be returned to lenders.
Enruoblehs
14/01/2011, 9:21 PM
Am I correct in reading this as a warning to the League that, unless Bohs get a Premier Division licence, that the players will not get paid?
.
pineapple stu
14/01/2011, 9:51 PM
That raises a load of questions.
Who imposed those conditions?
Is the 300k Bohs' estimate of the severance or the players'? The players want twice what the club want to give (26 wks v 13 wks)
Does the condition apply only to the loan offer secured against the ground? If so, is all the fundraising money and alleged FAI money gone? (McGuinness seems to imply Bohs got money from elsewhere - wouldn't deny it was the FAI - which he wants his members paid from.
If Bohs are running on empty, and the 300k is to clear the players, how do they plan on their proposed budget of E1.2m next season?
What happens if the 300k target isn't met?
SkStu
15/01/2011, 12:00 AM
off the top of my head. Not to be taken as gospel obviously.
Who imposed those conditions? Not sure. The club/members i presume. Dont see how they are controversial.
Is the 300k Bohs' estimate of the severance or the players'? Ours. Dont know why it would be otherwise.
Does the condition apply only to the loan offer secured against the ground? Yes
If so, is all the fundraising money and alleged FAI money gone? No.
If Bohs are running on empty, and the 300k is to clear the players, how do they plan on their proposed budget of E1.2m next season? Point me to our proposed budget of e1.2m for next season please. A leap in logic will not suffice, link please.
What happens if the 300k target isn't met? Then we cant settle with the players, as per the statement, the funds are returned to the contributors, we could then make all players redundant for next to nothing, go amateur and drop a few divisions and so be it.
SwanVsDalton
15/01/2011, 1:07 AM
Given the groundswell against me should clarify that i do think Shelley and Grey are entitled to choose this route (i never said otherwise), they may be right from their own perspective about what they have done but, as a Bohs fan, i am disappointed in Shelley to do this. I am disgusted with Grey. Despite the rights or wrongs of the issue, i dont have to like it.
Just out of curiousity - why more disgust with one player than another?
Longfordian
15/01/2011, 1:21 AM
I suppose it's a natural enough supporter reaction, you're thinking that the club has only got 4 games out of him or whatever it is and he's been paid every week, until recently yet he's one of the first to go to the High Court. It's not logical as he, presumably, has been genuinely injured but when your club is being threatened the blinkers come on.
I suppose it's a natural enough supporter reaction, you're thinking that the club has only got 4 games out of him or whatever it is and he's been paid every week, until recently yet he's one of the first to go to the High Court. It's not logical as he, presumably, has been genuinely injured but when your club is being threatened the blinkers come on.
add to that the fact that he was absolute gash when he played and thats pretty much why. Its just despicable - in my opinion... i challenge any fan to put themselves in a similar position, as a fan, and not feel the same way.
Ezeikial
15/01/2011, 1:32 AM
Funds received will only be released to Bohemian FC if:
1. We have accumulated sufficient funds to meet the requirements to fund the buy-out of player contracts and pre-fund the contracts of remaining players under contract (currently estimated at approx. €300,000).
2. Agreed deal with players secures the club a licence to play in the Airtricity Premier Division in 2011.If these two conditions must both be met for these funds to be used, then it appears that the granting of the PD licence must be assured or granted concurrent with players being paid off.
If Bohs are actually taking that line with the FAI / ILC and are making PD licence a requirement for honouring/settling contracts, then the licence application should be rejected out of hand
Longfordian
15/01/2011, 1:42 AM
add to that the fact that he was absolute gash when he played and thats pretty much why. Its just despicable - in my opinion... i challenge any fan to put themselves in a similar position, as a fan, and not feel the same way.
I've not been an expert on the Premier Division for oh three years or so but wasn't he pretty gash and/or injury prone for Derry? On your other point I've felt the same myself despite best efforts to look at it from a logical POV, passion > logic it's one of the side effects of caring about a club.
Charlie Darwin
15/01/2011, 1:49 AM
add to that the fact that he was absolute gash when he played and thats pretty much why. Its just despicable - in my opinion... i challenge any fan to put themselves in a similar position, as a fan, and not feel the same way.
Surely he's worked as hard or harder than any other player at the club, considering he's been trying to recover from injury?
I've not been an expert on the Premier Division for oh three years or so but wasn't he pretty gash and/or injury prone for Derry? On your other point I've felt the same myself despite best efforts to look at it from a logical POV, passion > logic it's one of the side effects of caring about a club.
i only ever saw him play for Drogheda and he was good.
Surely he's worked as hard or harder than any other player at the club, considering he's been trying to recover from injury?
possibly, possibly not. From what i have been told he didnt bust his balls and his attitude at the club was bad from the start but, hey, youre allowed to speculate.
The Lep
15/01/2011, 2:16 AM
add to that the fact that he was absolute gash when he played and thats pretty much why. Its just despicable - in my opinion... i challenge any fan to put themselves in a similar position, as a fan, and not feel the same way.
Regardless of how good he was, he is still entitled to be paid .
If these two conditions must both be met for these funds to be used, then it appears that the granting of the PD licence must be assured or granted concurrent with players being paid off.
If Bohs are actually taking that line with the FAI / ILC and are making PD licence a requirement for honouring/settling contracts, then the licence application should be rejected out of hand
I dont think its the gun to the head that youre describing, Ezekial. I see it as practical. Why release funds to pay for services that you dont and wont require if you dont get a PD license? If we dont get a license, only any arrears are paid, none of the pre-funded players are re-signed, we go amateur and play Cobh for a few years. Also, reaching a settlement isnt dependent on the license. Payment might be. In fact, a license is dependent on, amongst other things, a settlement (in our case). Again, im speculating. Im not a member.
If it is the way you are describing then i also have no problem with Bohs taking that approach if it is within the rules. If that is the strategy and it backfires and they reject our application out of hand then we go amateur.
Regardless of how good he was, he is still entitled to be paid .
i never said he wasnt. Ever.
osarusan
15/01/2011, 7:47 AM
If we dont get a license, only any arrears are paid, none of the pre-funded players are re-signed, we go amateur and play Cobh for a few years.
From that statement, it seems that if you don't get the PD licence, all the money raised will be returned to the people who were interested in loaning it to Bohs.
Do you still have the cash to pay the arrears of the other players?
horton
15/01/2011, 8:12 AM
No offence to SkStu but I'm guessing he doesn't have access to Bohs account info therefore how would he know what cash is available? If the club had the funds to pay off, they wouldn't be facing the high court would they?
-Edit- Just realised osarusan is banned. Pointless in me replying then.
Spudulika
15/01/2011, 8:22 AM
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/bohs-get-24-days-to-pay-up-2497192.html
24 days, should be okay.
Dodge
15/01/2011, 10:51 AM
-Edit- Just realised osarusan is banned. Pointless in me replying then.
He's not banned, he jsut has that title next to his name
The Lep
15/01/2011, 11:43 AM
i never said he wasnt. Ever.
You said that he was absolute gash when he played.
Ezeikial
15/01/2011, 12:40 PM
I dont think its the gun to the head that youre describing, Ezekial. I see it as practical. Why release funds to pay for services that you dont and wont require if you dont get a PD license? If we dont get a license, only any arrears are paid, none of the pre-funded players are re-signed, we go amateur and play Cobh for a few years.
What do you mean? Surely going amateur and/or playing First Division / A Championship simply means that while there is no need to sign new professional player contracts,the obligation of arrears on wages to date plus settlements on early termination of current contracts still stand.
Also, reaching a settlement isnt dependent on the license. Payment might be. In fact, a license is dependent on, amongst other things, a settlement (in our case). Again, im speculating. Im not a member.
That is the 'gun to the head' I referred to. No license = no payment to players
If it is the way you are describing then i also have no problem with Bohs taking that approach if it is within the rules. If that is the strategy and it backfires and they reject our application out of hand then we go amateur.
A very risky strategy!
A key issue is if Bohs are currently in breach of licencing requirements by non-payment of players (all players paid up to Nov 30?). If they are in breach then the ILC should not consider the application (i.e. "if you grant me the license, we will then meet the pre-conditions") - but then we all know the rules are applied selectively.
osarusan
15/01/2011, 2:40 PM
Just realised osarusan is banned. Pointless in me replying then.
Osarusan strikes again.
No offence to SkStu but I'm guessing he doesn't have access to Bohs account info therefore how would he know what cash is available? If the club had the funds to pay off, they wouldn't be facing the high court would they?
Maybe he doesn't, I'm just asking.
Osarusan/horton - no, i dont know what cash is available. Im presuming that we would have access to funds to pay arrears. Some of the funds that would be returned to the lenders could be redirected back to the club for that purpose and without conditions attached. That would be one simple way i can think of.
Ezekial - if we changed our status to amateur then the players are no longer required so we can make them redundant or lay them off with zero or minimal compensation (max 4 weeks wages). So the obligation to settle wouldnt stand in that circumstance. Obligation to pay arrears would, i believe (though not with legal certainty), still stand. Sorry if that wasnt clear in my original post. To make it clear, that is an option that has been touted on our mb not something the club wants to do necessarily. The club wants to stay in the League and is negotiating in good faith to compensate the players as well as they can within the mandate they have. Risky strategy? Probably/possibly. But it is up to the FAI to determine that. They dont seem to have any problems walking clubs in trouble through the licensing process so who knows whether they are okay with this. Dont mean to come across as arrogant in any way but i dont think they want Bohs to capitulate and, as such, are likely very well aware of the situation and strategy.
On another note, reinsate Osarusan. :)
You said that he was absolute gash when he played.
but isnt that a very different thing from saying that he shouldnt be paid?
Talk about a lep in logic! ;)
Lim till i die
15/01/2011, 6:19 PM
If somebody else mentions licensing I'll scream.
The licensing process is as meaningless as, well, as a contract with Bohs.
The Lep
15/01/2011, 8:23 PM
but isnt that a very different thing from saying that he shouldnt be paid?
Talk about a lep in logic! ;)
You have your wires crossed again stu :)
Regardless of how good he was, he is still entitled to be paid .
i never said he wasnt. Ever.
You said that he was absolute gash when he played.
but isnt that a very different thing from saying that he shouldnt be paid?
You have your wires crossed again stu :)
how??
The Lep
15/01/2011, 8:31 PM
how??
You said that you didnt say he was gash :)
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