Bohs in financial trouble - FAI Licencing called into question again?

[Dodge]

But the benefits are there. They might not be worth a whole lot financially, but they are there.

I'd never argue that clubs, and individuals, don't benefit from european success. But Pats games in Europe didn't help the LOI at all. They helped us, and Fahey, and Fabio and a handful of players. But the league didn't benefit.

[pineapple stu]

So he's making some attempt acknowledge the bigger picture, while all the time [rightly] pointing out that his own primary concern has to be his wages...
The point is that his wages are the problem. You can have Shels-esque success and go broke cos of the cost of it, but you can't act all surprised when the bubble does go pop.

[legendz]

If you look at most of the Europa League groups today, if an LoI club was there, they'd get fair amount of coverage with all the games.

[pineapple stu]

Shels got loads of coverage when they played Depor. What good did that do the league?

European progression as a panacea is very much overrated.

[dcfcsteve]

The frustrating thing about Boh's is, had they beaten TNS and been defeated by Anderlecht, they would've given CSKA Sofia a good game in the Europa League Play-offs. Would've been some amount of games as well to raise the profile of the LoO.

Bohs wouldn't definitely have got CSKA though if it had been their name in the draw rather than TNS, so it's rather moot.

[legendz]

Shels got loads of coverage when they played Depor. What good did that do the league?

European progression as a panacea is very much overrated.
That's true. It's a once off again though. There needs to be consistency of season after season. Many clubs have had one good season. It takes a few for people to sit up and take notice.

[John83]

That's true. It's a once off again though. There needs to be consistency of season after season. Many clubs have had one good season. It takes a few for people to sit up and take notice.
Which can't happen while we have the ridiculous situation where every team that wins the league goes pop within a couple of years.

[Charlie Darwin]

Shels got loads of coverage when they played Depor. What good did that do the league?

European progression as a panacea is very much overrated.
Probably depends on what club it is too. Shelbourne don't have any fans, and didn't even when they were winning things. If Derry, Cork or Rovers got into the EL they might actually have a reasonable chance of repeating the success the next year, and that would be more likely to have a knock-on effect.

I agree it's no panacea though.

[PartySaint]

So its the amount of fans you have that makes you more successful?? Naming 2 first divison clubs and a club who havent won the league in 16 years doesnt bcak up your argument well there

[hoops1]

Well if we are not the best this year we will next year. As Bohs will be part time and we will have a few of your better players.

[Charlie Darwin]

So its the amount of fans you have that makes you more successful?? Naming 2 first divison clubs and a club who havent won the league in 16 years doesnt bcak up your argument well there
Well Rovers have had hardly any fans* until recently too. I'm just saying that all three clubs have more or less the largest current fanbases and arguably the largest effective catchment areas for blow-ins, which would set them on course for sustainability at a higher level. Like I said, it's not a panacea, but those are the clubs with the greatest capacity for growth.

*let's say "active" fans

[PartySaint]

Yep im the arrogant one

[passerrby]

Have to say you're a little arrogant there Party boy, the point being made is that the ability of clubs without a decent fan base to win competitions by running themselves into the ground is symptomatic of what is wrong with our league and the way to combat it is for the well supported clubs who tried to emulate this, to be well and truly kicked up the arse and build from basics while maintaining their loyal core support.

not all clubs with a low fan base run themselves into the ground in their race for success however i can name you a few clubs with a large fan base who have done just that... any spring to mind maseanjo
the way to combat this is for these clubs to take a lesson from the smaller clubs in financial prudance

[Dodge]

Have to say you're a little arrogant there Party boy

You don't get rhetorical, do you?

[passerrby]

, the point being made is that the ability of clubs without a decent fan base to win competitions by running themselves into the ground is symptomatic of what is wrong with our league .

this is the part of your post i was replying too. which i think is whooly wrong ,my point is that the clubs with large fan bases are the ones who continously bring the game into disrepute

[Rasputin]

this is the part of your post i was replying too. which i think is whooly wrong ,my point is that the clubs with large fan bases are the ones who continously bring the game into disrepute
Dublin City, Kildare County, Kilkenny, St Francis, St James's gate etc etc?
While Sporting Franchise will be the next on that list.

[Lim till i die]

EVERY club, bar maybe Monaghan, will invariably bring the game into disrepute a half dozen or so times each per season.

[de bowez]

this is the part of your post i was replying too. which i think is whooly wrong ,my point is that the clubs with large fan bases are the ones who continously bring the game into disrepute

No Irish club has a large fanbase.

[dcfcsteve]

Dublin City, Kildare County, Kilkenny, St Francis, St James's gate etc etc?
While Sporting Franchise will be the next on that list.

What did Kildare Co, Kilkenny City, St Francis or St James's Gate do to bring the game into disrepute ?

Unless you count an anonymous outfit fizzling out of existence without anyone really noticing being 'disrepute'....

[Model Club]

What did Kildare Co, Kilkenny City, St Francis or St James's Gate do to bring the game into disrepute ?

Unless you count an anonymous outfit fizzling out of existence without anyone really noticing being 'disrepute'....

Whatever about Kildare which imo was a failed experiment,St Francis(albeit in junior football),Kilkenny(E.M.F.A.) and especially Jame's Gate all had a decent history or at least enough not to be regarded as "anonymous outfits".

[dcfcsteve]

Whatever about Kildare which imo was a failed experiment,St Francis(albeit in junior football),Kilkenny(E.M.F.A.) and especially Jame's Gate all had a decent history or at least enough not to be regarded as "anonymous outfits".

Someone should have told that to the soccer going public in Kilkenny and Dublin then.... :D

History Schmistory - the 3 clubs had dreadful crowds, which showed that no-one really cared. They certainly didn't care enough to try to save them. Francis and Gate in particular are missed by no-one (except perhaps SoccerC... ).

[Model Club]

Someone should have told that to the soccer going public in Kilkenny and Dublin then.... :D

History Schmistory - the 3 clubs had dreadful crowds, which showed that no-one really cared. They certainly didn't care enough to try to save them. Francis and Gate in particular are missed by no-one (except perhaps SoccerC... ).

Your first point could be relevent for every city,town,hamlet in the country.No club can say they are happy with attendances-Some are just less bad than others.
I agree on your second point I just felf it historically unfair to put Kildare in with clubs who at least had a history or at least a few at one stage who gave a damn!

Dont dis history steve.For some football fans its all we have;)

[dcfcsteve]

Your first point could be relevent for every city,town,hamlet in the country.No club can say they are happy with attendances-Some are just less bad than others.
I agree on your second point I just felf it historically unfair to put Kildare in with clubs who at least had a history or at least a few at one stage who gave a damn!

Dont dis history steve.For some football fans its all we have;)

I'll never diss history MC ! I'm just not convinced St Francis or Kilkenny City had much of it to speak of :D

[Spudulika]

The biggest mistake St. Francis did was be bullied/enticed/lured into the LOI, they were a solid club with good fan base and realistic ambitions, far too good for the LOI. Kilkenny is a good football town but just didn't have the numbers to make it work, it shows now when there is still abundant football there that it may have worked somehow. Kildare County showed that just because there's lots of football being played locally doesn't mean that there will be a transition into pro or semi-pro football. I remember playing against Kildare schoolboy teams and while they were rough as sandpaper, they were fanatical, same up in the Junior ranks, but there seemed to be a disconnect when County kicked off. It at least dampened the calls for LOI teams to be put in Navan and Mullingar, for now!

[peadar1987]

Shels got loads of coverage when they played Depor. What good did that do the league?

European progression as a panacea is very much overrated.

Something doesn't have to be a panacea to be of benefit though. European progression won't hurt the league so long as the clubs don't run themselves into the ground chasing it

[pineapple stu]

No, that's true. Its benefits get way overstated though. I'll claim poetic licence on that one.

[Model Club]

The biggest mistake St. Francis did was be bullied/enticed/lured into the LOI, they were a solid club with good fan base and realistic ambitions, far too good for the LOI. Kilkenny is a good football town but just didn't have the numbers to make it work, it shows now when there is still abundant football there that it may have worked somehow. Kildare County showed that just because there's lots of football being played locally doesn't mean that there will be a transition into pro or semi-pro football. I remember playing against Kildare schoolboy teams and while they were rough as sandpaper, they were fanatical, same up in the Junior ranks, but there seemed to be a disconnect when County kicked off. It at least dampened the calls for LOI teams to be put in Navan and Mullingar, for now!

Great post Spudulika!

I had a soft spot for Francis since my old man used to ref the AUL and they seemed to sweep up every trophy possible for years.
The also wore the right colours and when the won a certain semi-final in 1990,well..........How could a Rovers fan not like them.

Then they sold their soul to Pats and the rest is...................

[Roo69]

EVERY club, bar maybe Monaghan, will invariably bring the game into disrepute a half dozen or so times each per season.

False.

I would say in their entire history UCD have not brought the game into dispreute half a dozen times, Bray wouldn't be far off it either in their history. Several other clubs go about their business in correct manner too and are never in the news making the wrong headlines or invariably bring the game into disrepute a half dozen or so times each per season as stated.

[Spudulika]

Great post Spudulika!

I had a soft spot for Francis since my old man used to ref the AUL and they seemed to sweep up every trophy possible for years.
The also wore the right colours and when the won a certain semi-final in 1990,well..........How could a Rovers fan not like them.

Then they sold their soul to Pats and the rest is...................

Thanks Model Club, St. Francis should never have come into the league, they were like some team from the North that I cannot for the life of me remember their name, they're amateur or semi-pro and really strong below IL level, but they've knocked back invites to step up into the top ranks as they just don't want to risk it financially. St. Francis are still going, and there are lots of other sides like them who could have done a job in the league but held back (thank goodness Ashtownvilla, as they were then, didn't jump into the LOI, though I still wish Tolka Rovers had taken a chance in the late 80's when they had a few of the Dubs playing for them).

[pineapple stu]

Bohs' accounts have been filed with the CRO. The highlights -


Loss for last season of E1.9m (compared to 2008 of E1.1m). The main difference is not getting any money from the sale of the property.
Wages for players are down E250k on 2008, and are 66% of turnover - E1.7m compared to turnover of E2.5m. Wages for management and technical staff were up E10k to E435k. I thought this was being brought under the SCP last year?
Staff numbers rose from 36 to 41; an extra 3 players, 6 admin staff and 4 fewer coaches
Income is up E500k - E200k extra prize money, E140k extra from gate receipts and E200k extra from commercial activities including sponsorship and, I think, transfer fee receipts of E100k (other operating income was down E60k). This doesn't count income from the sale of Dalyer, which went from E1m to E150k
Short-term creditors rose E800k, pretty much all of which went to trade creditors, which were E1.4m at the year end.
Long-term creditors - the Zurich bank loan - rose E800k in the year. They owed E400k of PAYE at the year end, which could well be just the annual P30. But basically they've funded the year by borrowing more from Zurich, not paying creditors and seeing cash reduce from E350k to E75k. There was a legal bill of E820k
Bank interest was E130k (down from 140k last year). Zurich interest was up E50k; investor loans interest was down E35k to nil, while interest on overdue tax was down E20k to E10k.
Cost of running the underage teams rose by E40k to E170k
Bar wages were down E10k to E95k
Bad debts were E40k (E35k last year). Sundry costs were E70k (E35k last year). Audit was E28k (same as last year). Repairs were E85k (E37k last year). Medical expenses were E95k (E83k last year). Player and staff kits cost E21k (E35k last year). Still seems to be some serious cost-pruning doable.

There's a note that the millions Danninger have paid to date are non-refundable and suggests Bohs could sue for moneys outstanding (good luck with sueing an insolvent company). It also says that "The directors have prepared detailed budgets and forecasts for 2009/10 which have been submitted to the FAI for licencing requirements. Their proposed strategy to increase expansion of the club in European competitions, while cutting costs, with specific focus on player costs, will allow Bohemians to remain viable and become profitable within 1-2 years". So that's out the window straight away.

Another note - "The directors are confident that there is sufficient working capital ability in long-term loans to bridge the gap that will fall in the short-term" - so they plan to continue borrowing more money from Zurich.

So leaving aside the legal fee, they still lost E1m in the year. 2010 can't see a massive improvement income-wise (lost to TNS v lost to Salzburg at the first hurdle in Europe) and they don't look like winning the league, so even allowing for cutting wages a lot, you're looking at a conservative loss of E750k for this year.

Goodnight Bohs.

[Mr A]

Pretty grim reading there. Some serious legal fees.. especially when I don't remember winning any of their cases.

I think the coaches and management didn't come under the SCP until this year though.

It would be interesting to know what the terms of the contract with Danninger were with regard to Bohs being able to make a new deal now that a payment has been missed.

[Roo69]

Goodnight Bohs.

Premier Division.... here we stay

[pineapple stu]

On reflection, I'd say the trade creditors are way up cos they haven't paid the legal fees yet.


It would be interesting to know what the terms of the contract with Danninger were with regard to Bohs being able to make a new deal now that a payment has been missed.
From the Directors' Report - "A contract for an option to buy Dalymount Park has been entered into by BFC in Dec 2009. This will generate income in the coming year and ensure that should Danninger not be able to fulfil on the sale agreement entered into in 2007, that BFC will be in a position to re-sell".

Also says "These moneys [those received from Albion which meant they lost the court case] are currently being repaid by BFC, thus ensuring that the Danninger sale can go ahead."

So their plan seems to be to undo everything done so far and go ahead with either the Danninger deal or a new deal if Danninger go belly up.

You have to take notes like that with a pinch of salt though, as they're purely from Bohs' side and I recall previous notes saying that the directors considered it unlikely they'd lose the court case.

Edit - another classic from the Directors' Report - "The effects of the economic downturn continue to be experienced, which presents challenges to all businesses and this club is no exception. [...] Given the economic situation of the past 12 months, we feel that the actions undertaken to increase income and reduce costs has helped cushion BFC from some of the detrimental market downturn." So it's mostly the recession's fault.

[Mr A]

Cheers for that. Is there a figure for total debts?

Also,... Bohs must have some serious youth teams for that sort of money....

[Schumi]

Wages for players are down E250k on 2008, and are 66% of turnover How is this allowed?

[Celdrog]

Wages for players are down E250k on 2008, and are 66% of turnover - E1.7m compared to turnover of E2.5m.So, they have admitted that they breached the 65% SCP :confused:

[pineapple stu]

Actually, I'd say the E150k from the buy-back and sale of the same piece of land was added to the turnover figure, giving an SCP % of 62.7%.

On Mr A's total debts question, they owe just over E5m.

Edit - the accounts in full are on imageshack linked through the Rovers forum (http://www.srfcultrasforum.com/forum/showthread.php?12381-Bohs-accounts-for-last-season) (where else? :p).

[Mario]

>Cost of running the underage teams rose by E40k to E170k

Great to see Bohs willing to invest so much money into their schoolboy set-up :rolleyes:

Isn't that one of the suspicious points Rovers raised at the end of last season, or was that relating to the previous set of account? I am getting confused now ...

Mario

[Spudulika]

Good to see they've increased spend on the underage structure, scared to see the level of legal fees they have, worried about how this will all turn out. I can't see them going under, however not winning the league this year could be one of the best things that has happened to them. However the loss in potential revenue will be large, I'm not 100% on what the most recent figure is, but don't all league winners receive 350k before they kick a ball? If this is the case then they've got another large lump to get rid of from teh wage bill.

[pineapple stu]

Prize money last year was E625k. I think it's about E250k for winning the league, and something like E150k for second and E100k for third? So there's E150k gone straight away, plus then less prize money for UEFA Cup v Champions' League. So if they come third this year, you could maybe take E250k off their income straight off.

[Spudulika]

If they finish thrid they'll start a round earlier in Europe, though be seeded. I think Prize money is 90k for appearance, same for the 2nd round of qualifying, then it ramps up, so they might have a tidy run, unless they shed a load of players. I was told before I came away by a friend of my colleague who's a Bohs fan (disaffected) that the players refused to travel to Wales without their bonuses being paid. I scarcely believe it to be more than a rumour, however I just thought, have Bohs always paid on time, which means that at least they're being a professional club - regardless of borrowed monies etc.

[HulaHoop]

Cost of running the underage teams rose by E40k to E170k
Sundry costs were E70k (E35k last year).
Repairs were E85k (E37k last year).

170k for running the underage teams and sundry costs doubled to a whopping 70k and yet Bohs fans still insist they don't cook the books to get within the SCP...

[pineapple stu]

I just thought, have Bohs always paid on time, which means that at least they're being a professional club - regardless of borrowed monies etc.
I don't think paying wages on time is the sole criterion for determining whether a club acts professionally or not.

HulaHoop - there's no evidence to suggest the sundry costs increased because of wages being dumped in there. The underage coaching you could question alright, but unless there's any evidence on the other one, I don't think it's admissable at all.

[Spudulika]

I don't think paying wages on time is the sole criterion for determining whether a club acts professionally or not.

HulaHoop - there's no evidence to suggest the sundry costs increased because of wages being dumped in there. The underage coaching you could question alright, but unless there's any evidence on the other one, I don't think it's admissable at all.

Me either, it's just a departure from the norm for the LOI (that they've been meeting wages as it seems that apart from unsecured creditors players and staff are the first to get hit).

On the issue of underage teams, how many do Bohs run, and does this include the A squad? I could see a large underage structure costing in excess of 150k alright, put in travel, coaches, insurance etc, though how much do kids pay in subs each week does anyone know?

[pineapple stu]

Me either, it's just a departure from the norm for the LOI (that they've been meeting wages as it seems that apart from unsecured creditors players and staff are the first to get hit).
I think the main difference between Bohs and the other clubs is that we can see things happen in much more detail - so there were these kind of rumblings at other clubs before the wages were cut (and obviously without the benefit of a ground to sell in most cases).

But yeah, I see your point alright.

[Mr A]

Always bad to see the Tribune taking an interest in the league: http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/sep/05/losses-double-at-bohs-new-deal-for-dalymount/

Spudulika- there is a separate entry for the A team of 21k.

There is 72k income from the schoolboys though.

Still, that's massive expenditure on the youth section.

[GGAJD]

Cheers for that. Is there a figure for total debts?

Also,... Bohs must have some serious youth teams for that sort of money....

Losses for last year totalled €1,881,037. Accumulated losses carried forward is €5,621,065

Legal and professional fees went up from €64,155 in 2008 to €820,448 in 2009.

Admin and ground staff rose from 3 employees to 9 yet the wage bill dropped from €212,000 down to €202,000:confused:

At least fundraising costs dropped from €94k in '08 to €16k last year:D

They still value the car park at €6,075,000, (they're own valuation mind) must be the only piece of property in the country that hasn't depreciated.

God only knows what sort of losses they've incurred this year with the fall off in attendances. The first instalment on the Zurich loan I believe is due in January, €350-400k, so it would seem quite possible they could forfeit and Zurich will take the car park as their own which would leave boez tangible assets at just under €2 million if this happens.

[Mr A]

There's a note saying they're repaying the earlier money to Albion, yet Albion are down as paying 150k for the option to buy when Danniger go into liquidation.. seems a bit of a weird set up!

[John83]

Always bad to see the Tribune taking an interest in the league: http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/sep/05/losses-double-at-bohs-new-deal-for-dalymount/
And with a large "Death notices" prominently at the top of the page. :tremble:

[Mr A]

The first instalment on the Zurich loan I believe is due in January, €350-400k, so it would seem quite possible they could forfeit and Zurich will take the car park as their own which would leave boez tangible assets at just under €2 million if this happens.

Wouldn't the rest of Dalymount we worth way more than that even without the car park?