Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[CraftyToePoke]

I said McCarthy, currently propping up the Championships would see it as an attractive proposition.

What ?

[geysir]

What ?
False stat.

[seanfhear]

As well as who do we want we also have to consider who would take it.

I said McCarthy, currently propping up the Championships would see it as an attractive proposition.

Kenny might not be so Keane (pun intended ;)).Is that an Architect-ual Position ?

[peadar1987]

As well as who do we want we also have to consider who would take it.

I said McCarthy, currently propping up the Championships would see it as an attractive proposition.

Kenny might not be so Keane (pun intended ;)).

Mick left Ipswich at the end of last season when they had finished (I believe) comfortably mid-table. Whether he can be blamed for their subsequent crash would take a closer follower of English football than me to say.

[TrapAPony]

Matt Doherty was interviewed on RTE2FM a little earlier and was asked about the setup. He said, 'When you played with Ireland, you didn't really have that much coaching. It was more go and play a little five-a-side game or an eleven side game and then that would be it. So you could lead all the way up to the game, maybe the day before a game and you would do a few set-pieces here and there and then you would go into a game and you were thinking to yourself 'what shape we are going to play.'

You'd have a few players thinking, 'aw, I think we are going to play this shape' or you might have someone else thinking 'I think it might be this one.' You can't really have that, especially at international football, people not really sure on what their role is the next day.'

[brine3]

Two million a year

[Fixer82]

Doherty’s few sound bites a few months ago suggested he was pi$$ed off with O’Neill anyway.
But if this is true, then it’s really bad for the money O’Neill was getting.
Makes me wonder how he produced such big performances up to and including the Euros.

[Stuttgart88]

Is it fair to assume now that O'Neill knew Doherty thought he was a spoofer and didn't rate his methods, and that goes a long way to explaining why he was always so slow to pick him? I suppose Doherty didn't really have much exposure to MON until recently though because he was rarely even picked for the final squads.

[ifk101]

Would be interested to hear what Cyrus Christie has to say. Was stuck by his performance for the first 10 minutes or so against Denmark, totally lost - evidently given no direction. And as said elsewhere, the "tactics" on Monday were retreat and retreating on mass. There was no discernible defensive organisation - just a haphazard, winging it approach.

The highlights of MON time in charge got played up yesterday - Brady's goal against Italy in particular. That goal was created by a pass out of defence into midfield, where the midfielder turned and played a forward pass out to the wing, which was subsequently crossed into the box. No linkage like that was done against Denmark ie ball from defence, and subsequent forward pass and momentum from midfield.

[liamoo11]

Really hope Roy takes whatever championship or league one job comes up. He needs to get back in and show he has learned get the head down and graft get some respect back. None of this waiting for the right job nonsense that ship has sailed

[Fixer82]

Doherty comes across as fierce cocky in that interview. Doesn’t endear himself to the fans

[liamoo11]

Doherty comes across as fierce cocky in that interview. Doesn’t endear himself to the fans

Yeah Doherty has alot to say for himself. O'Neill is gone now what does it matter no need to jump on his grave. If the next manager comes in and spends hours on shape and tactics I'm sure Doherty will also have something to whinge about.

[Kingdom]

I've not liked the narrative that's been around the ONeill tenure in the last few hours. "Best ever performance at a Euro's" - wrong. "Denmark defeat turning point" - wrong.

The turning point was the first game of the World cup qualifiers. The spin coming out of Euro2016 was that we were back, we are playing good football, and are ready to march again. As ever with football, there are asterixes beside all the opinions whether its an amateur opinion or a pro opinion. We got the ideal start away in the type of fixture that we've always struggled in. This time we were playing a team on their knees confidence wise, and we buckled. We buckled because despite the ****e that's been thrown about in platitudes in the last 12 hours, we were never encouraged to do the basics in football and retain possession. It's broken out on occasion, but generally it's been route one. Don't forget having played two of the tough games in the group and come away with 4 points, we were leading the group coming out of 2016. Everyone seems to have lost sight of that, and focussed on the Denmark game in Lansdowne. It unravelled in the Spring and summer, when with a nice run of games, we completely shut down and capitulated. Wales, Austria and Serbia at home were three of the worst home performances by an Irish side in a long time. The win away to Wales was super, but it wasn't a masterclass or anything like it. We defended deep, gave Wales no space in behind, and snatched our only real opportunity. You have to respect a defensive performance when it's required, but what we did away to Wales, and what we did in those German games, was what we've always hated from weaker teams doing to us, showing no interest in engaging in football and stifling the opposition and hoping for a lucky break.
I would have no problem in doing that against a much superior team, but the problem is that has become our norm, our standard, so that when faced with teams who are not superior, that when we have to take the initiative, we are unable to do so. That this hasn't been highlighted seriously bugs me, as if crowd numbers should be the deciding point on a managers tenure. Irish sports "fans" are fickle mofo's. Generally it's all about the event. Ask me b

[OwlsFan]

Best performance at a Euros ? That has to be 1988.

Anyway, I salute Martin O'Neill. If he is responsible for the current bad times then I have to thank him for some of the greatest moments he has given me when following Ireland:

Shane Long's goal against Germany resulting in the victory.
John O'Shea's last minute goal for the draw in Gelsenkirchen.
The win over Italy in the Euros.
The long awaited away win in Austria.
The win in Cardiff.

These are amazing achievements/moments which I will carry with me to my grave. While his time had come, I will also remember (dementia aside) the good.

Amusing tribute on Gift Grub this am https://www.todayfm.com/podcasts/93409/Gift-Grub---Martin-&-Roy-Sing-Farewell (I love the bit: MON "We each had our roles". RK "How do you like your tea, Mayortin ?" :)

[DeLorean]

Doherty comes across as fierce cocky in that interview. Doesn’t endear himself to the fans

Unfortunately it does endear him to an awful lot of the fans that want to throw as much sh!t at MON as possible. Realistically he isn't saying anything that we didn't already know or assume though. It wasn't good enough but, like you, I'd have a lot more respect for Doherty if he was seen and not heard.

[seanfhear]

In fairness to Doherty he was treated very shabbily by Martin O’Neill and Roy Keane . It was a mystery to fans here why he was ignored time and time again .

It just did not make any sense when you consider the lack of strength and depth we have .

It was just one of many bizarre actions by the O’Neill /Keane team . You may get away with bizarre if you have success but bizarre is just bizarre when you are not getting results .

Roy Keane was a disastrous Assistant for O’ Neill . He was just too much like O’ Neill without the Charm (lol) . If as a manger you are not going to do the coaching you surely need an assistant that will do it .

[DeLorean]

In fairness to Doherty he was treated very shabbily by Martin O’Neill and Roy Keane . It was a mystery to fans here why he was ignored time and time again .

I agree with that and have been as perplexed as anybody with the way he was pretty much ignored for so long. I just think there's a classy and not so classy way of dealing with these things and, for me, Doherty has chosen the latter.

[seanfhear]

I agree with that and have been as perplexed as anybody with the way he was pretty much ignored for so long. I just think there's a classy and not so classy way of dealing with these things and, for me, Doherty has chosen the latter.
He quite possibly could have 10/15 more Caps for Ireland . Maybe he is quite rightly pi$$ed off about it . I know I would be . O’Neill /Keane treated him very badly .

[Fixer82]

He quite possibly could have 10/15 more Caps for Ireland . Maybe he is quite rightly pi$$ed off about it . I know I would be . O’Neill /Keane treated him very badly .

They didn’t really treat him badly.
They just didn’t pick him when he merited being picked. He trained with them. Some managers just don’t fancy certain players for their team. And a team is often more than the sum of its parts, a mix of the players skills as well as the right personalities to get the right blend of spirit and skill.

Maybe they felt he wasn’t a team player. Maybe they were right judging by his comments.

If that’s what it is based on then Cyrus Christie must be the ultimate team player.

[seanfhear]

Not picking you when you are ( ok , opinions ) good enough is bad treatment .I hope every Irish Player rates themselves . Its a tough competitive game , Self Belief is vitally important .

I suggest that Doherty thinks that they treated him badly by not picking him . I agree with him .

[Fixer82]

Not picking you when you are ( ok , opinions ) good enough is bad treatment .I hope every Irish Player rates themselves . Its a tough competitive game , Self Belief is vitally important .

I suggest that Doherty thinks that they treated him badly by not picking him . I agree with him .

Yeah I get the point. But he was brought into the set up before and they obviously didn’t think he fit in.

And I understand him feeling aggrieved. Any player with self worth should do so. But I think he’s overly cocky in his few interviews when he doesn’t need to be.
Maybe I’m wrong and I hope I am.

[mark12345]

I've not liked the narrative that's been around the ONeill tenure in the last few hours. "Best ever performance at a Euro's" - wrong. "Denmark defeat turning point" - wrong.

The turning point was the first game of the World cup qualifiers. The spin coming out of Euro2016 was that we were back, we are playing good football, and are ready to march again. As ever with football, there are asterixes beside all the opinions whether its an amateur opinion or a pro opinion. We got the ideal start away in the type of fixture that we've always struggled in. This time we were playing a team on their knees confidence wise, and we buckled. We buckled because despite the ****e that's been thrown about in platitudes in the last 12 hours, we were never encouraged to do the basics in football and retain possession. It's broken out on occasion, but generally it's been route one. Don't forget having played two of the tough games in the group and come away with 4 points, we were leading the group coming out of 2016. Everyone seems to have lost sight of that, and focussed on the Denmark game in Lansdowne. It unravelled in the Spring and summer, when with a nice run of games, we completely shut down and capitulated. Wales, Austria and Serbia at home were three of the worst home performances by an Irish side in a long time. The win away to Wales was super, but it wasn't a masterclass or anything like it. We defended deep, gave Wales no space in behind, and snatched our only real opportunity. You have to respect a defensive performance when it's required, but what we did away to Wales, and what we did in those German games, was what we've always hated from weaker teams doing to us, showing no interest in engaging in football and stifling the opposition and hoping for a lucky break.
I would have no problem in doing that against a much superior team, but the problem is that has become our norm, our standard, so that when faced with teams who are not superior, that when we have to take the initiative, we are unable to do so. That this hasn't been highlighted seriously bugs me, as if crowd numbers should be the deciding point on a managers tenure. Irish sports "fans" are fickle mofo's. Generally it's all about the event. Ask me b

Very good points all. We talk ad nauseum about the Denmark game. It all went pear shaped way before that, when Austria came to town. In the history of Austrian football the team that visited the Aviva must have been the weakest side they ever put out. They were there, not for the taking, but for a real hiding from Ireland, that is if we set about it the right way. But of course we didn't and when MON decided to not to start Wes Hoolahan, it was one of the worst decisions of his tenure. He had the chance to correct his mistake at half time, but inexplicably he didn't. What happened when Wes came on with 20 minutes left? The game was totally transformed. We equalized and had Austria on the rack before putting a second ball in the net only for it to be ruled out for offside. Bad to worse in Georgia a few months later - the most despicable performance I have ever seen from any team. And it was all over when Serbia visited. And you are correct Kingdom - we have no interest anymore in engaging other teams but instead just look for a lucky break. We have fallen down that hole and it seems we are not able to get out.

[Charlie Darwin]

In the history of Austrian football the team that visited the Aviva must have been the weakest side they ever put out.
Ah, look, it was a poor Austria team no doubt but they've had some shocking teams. There's no need to exaggerate to say Ireland missed an open goal.

[Stuttgart88]

David Walshe quite good in today's Sunday Times, an insight into O'Neill's *****ly character.

[Fixer82]

Very good points all. We talk ad nauseum about the Denmark game. It all went pear shaped way before that, when Austria came to town. In the history of Austrian football the team that visited the Aviva must have been the weakest side they ever put out. They were there, not for the taking, but for a real hiding from Ireland, that is if we set about it the right way. But of course we didn't and when MON decided to not to start Wes Hoolahan, it was one of the worst decisions of his tenure. He had the chance to correct his mistake at half time, but inexplicably he didn't. What happened when Wes came on with 20 minutes left? The game was totally transformed. We equalized and had Austria on the rack before putting a second ball in the net only for it to be ruled out for offside. Bad to worse in Georgia a few months later - the most despicable performance I have ever seen from any team. And it was all over when Serbia visited. And you are correct Kingdom - we have no interest anymore in engaging other teams but instead just look for a lucky break. We have fallen down that hole and it seems we are not able to get out.


I also remember Wes coming on against Denmark in the 5-1 game and setting Shane Long up with a beautiful ball to make it 3-2 or 4-2 (game was up anyway) and Long made a mess of it.

It was frustrating seeing Wes not start games when he always created something

[geysir]

David Walshe quite good in today's Sunday Times, an insight into O'Neill's *****ly character.
Any chance of posting up the article for us plebs who can't afford such luxuries? ie if Tets is ok with that.

[Stuttgart88]

I read it in my local cafe. I'm not a subscriber. Basically DW said he criticised MON and Ireland's play after the 1-1 at home to Scotland, saying Scotland looked the better side, more cohesive etc. MON rang him to complain, thinking the criticism wasn't fair and was over the top. DW said he was not trying to be unfair, just writing what he thought. MON said, watch my words, we'll qualify. DW said and if we do I'll be the first to congratulate you. Two days after we qualified DW rang O'Neill several times and left several messages and eventually texted his congratulations, asking when would be a good time for him to call. MON ignored all the calls and texts.

The rest of the article was simply that O'Neill is very old school. He occasionally looked on in training and really only got involved to give players extra shuttle runs if he felt they weren't putting in the required effort in training. The rest was left to the coaches who themselves were hands off and old school.

[geysir]

I guess MON must be a subscriber then?

[tetsujin1979]

article is here: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/old-school-approach-cost-martin-o-neill-his-job-qwcr9dm35
You can register to read three free articles a week.

[Stuttgart88]

I guess MON must be a subscriber then?No, he also goes to Costa Coffee on Sundays.

[geysir]

article is here: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/old-school-approach-cost-martin-o-neill-his-job-qwcr9dm35
You can register to read three free articles a week.
I only see an option for a free 30 day trial, then £5/month. No path to register for the limited free access.

[tetsujin1979]

It's actually only two free articles a week, click register and you'll get access

[tetsujin1979]

I read the article yesterday, basically O'Neill told Walsh after the 1-1 with Scotland that we would still qualify, Walsh said if we did then he's be the first to congratulate the manager.
Following the play off, Walsh rang and sent a text to congratulate O'Neill on qualification, and he never called back or replied.

[Diggs246]

I read the article yesterday, basically O'Neill told Walsh after the 1-1 with Scotland that we would still qualify, Walsh said if we did then he's be the first to congratulate the manager.
Following the play off, Walsh rang and sent a text to congratulate O'Neill on qualification, and he never called back or replied.

Its classic bully behavior, I'm so glad we have moved on

[geysir]

It's actually only two free articles a week, click register and you'll get access
As I wrote, there is no register option, only subscribe.

[tetsujin1979]

As I wrote, there is no register option, only subscribe.

Sorry, posted that from my phone
click the "Get access" link on the article, register your details and you'll get two free articles a week

[osarusan]

Best of luck to both of them anyway.

I think they stayed too long and have done their reputations a bit of damage over the last few months, but I hope they'll find jobs.

O'Neill should get something, a championship club maybe?

Not sure who would be interested in Keane.

[geysir]

Sorry, posted that from my phone
click the "Get access" link on the article, register your details and you'll get two free articles a week

No Get Access link on the article that loads up on my 2 browsers. The access to 2 articles a week must a British Isles ip thing.

[backstothewall]

Best of luck to both of them anyway.

I think they stayed too long and have done their reputations a bit of damage over the last few months, but I hope they'll find jobs.

O'Neill should get something, a championship club maybe?

Not sure who would be interested in Keane.

I'd say there is a good chance they will be back together the next time the Forest job comes up.

[Fixer82]

Just reading Dan McDonnell’s piece about Roy Keane.

‘Keane's sideline manner was abrasive; the Sky microphones picked it up in Aarhus on Monday.’

Missed this. Can anyone enlighten us?

I’d imagine Keane was driven demented by the performances of Irish Central Midfielders

[zero]

Just reading Dan McDonnell’s piece about Roy Keane.

‘Keane's sideline manner was abrasive; the Sky microphones picked it up in Aarhus on Monday.’

Missed this. Can anyone enlighten us?

I’d imagine Keane was driven demented by the performances of Irish Central Midfielders

I heard someone during the game describe a particular misplaced pass as 'f***ing b*******t' but I had assumed it was a fan...

[tetsujin1979]

No Get Access link on the article that loads up on my 2 browsers. The access to 2 articles a week must a British Isles ip thing.must be it

[irishfan86]

Just reading Dan McDonnell’s piece about Roy Keane.

‘Keane's sideline manner was abrasive; the Sky microphones picked it up in Aarhus on Monday.’

Missed this. Can anyone enlighten us?

I’d imagine Keane was driven demented by the performances of Irish Central Midfielders

I actually place a lot of the blame for our midfield failures on Roy. No doubt this is a bad batch of Irish midfielders, but Roy of all people should have been advocating strongly for O'Neill to select a proper defensive/holding midfielder like a Shaun Williams. It is better to play a more limited defensive midfielder in his proper position than to play a superior technician or attacking player like Hourihane or Hendrick in that defensive role. I actually like Hourihane and Hendrick but feel they were played completely out of position.

[SkStu]

I don’t think that it’s a particularly bad batch of midfielders. I just think it’s missing someone who grabs the game by the scruff of the next, missing a “leettle personaliteee” as a previous manager was fond of saying.

As you point out, our midfielders have not been used effectively, as part of a system nor in their best positions by the previous administration. That’s the biggest issue I can see. The players themselves are decent players with potential to be better.

[shakermaker1982]

Keane was supportive on the touch line the other night! You could hear him shouting “well done Cyrus” numerous times. Unless he was being sarcastic?!

[Charlie Darwin]

Keane was supportive on the touch line the other night! You could hear him shouting “well done Cyrus” numerous times. Unless he was being sarcastic?!
Both are possible to be honest.

[SkStu]

Keane was supportive on the touch line the other night! You could hear him shouting “well done Cyrus” numerous times. Unless he was being sarcastic?!

I thought he was screeching “worse than Cyprus” :D ;)

[Stuttgart88]

So either he's an aggressive bully from the sidelines, or his judgement is seriously questionable. It doesn't reflect well on Keane either way!

[Stuttgart88]

I actually place a lot of the blame for our midfield failures on Roy. No doubt this is a bad batch of Irish midfielders, but Roy of all people should have been advocating strongly for O'Neill to select a proper defensive/holding midfielder like a Shaun Williams. It is better to play a more limited defensive midfielder in his proper position than to play a superior technician or attacking player like Hourihane or Hendrick in that defensive role. I actually like Hourihane and Hendrick but feel they were played completely out of position.Exactly. I was thinking that if anyone can understand what a midfield needs to be functional it's Keane. Instead he seems to have proved another theory of mine, that people who found playing the game easy never understand it quite as well as those who had to really figure it out.

[geysir]

I wonder what managerial team interaction could possibly explain and justify the anarchy of the Cyrus midfield role?