Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[Stuttgart88]

Sounds like Stephen Ward, fairly tame stuff.
Fairly tame an assistant manager going out of his way to insult and pick a fight with two senior squad members? Effing and blinding and calling one a c*** and that if he had his way he wouldn't be picked? That's brutal management, sorry. I know industrial language is used in football but it's the tone and the intent that's the issue here.

[TrapAPony]

What is Keane adding to the setup? There is obviously a toxic environment in the camp right now. Funny that his bullyboy tactics might have worked with Arter but he wasn't long backing down from Walters. Keane should be got rid of asap.

[shakermaker1982]

Harry Arter wouldn’t last long in Oasis.

[Fixer82]

That’s definitely Ward alright.
There’s no way that’s acceptable.
Roy needs to apologise if he’s to last in that set up.
Otherwise it undermines the whole management team nd creates a bad atmosphere.

[osarusan]

If that is really Ward, this audio will prompt a lot of questions of O'Neill, Keane, Arter, and Walters.

And if the bones of it are verified, you'd have to wonder if Keane can even stay on.

[Fixer82]

There’s no question in my mind that that’s Stephen Ward.

[jbyrne]

There’s no question in my mind that that’s Stephen Ward.

recorded and sent around to the squads whatsapp group apparently

[Fixer82]

recorded and sent around to the squads whatsapp group apparently

Ooh who’s the rat?! 🐀

[Deckydee]

McGeady - Jefkin and Daryl Murphy involved 2 years ago..

https://twitter.com/i/status/1039151508602798081


Off the Ball > https://twitter.com/i/status/1039099172631314432

[Diggs246]

I just checked there and I don't think Ward was in the squad for any of the summer game Turkey/ Frnace/ USA

Is that correct?

[tetsujin1979]

I just checked there and I don't think Ward was in the squad for any of the summer game Turkey/ Frnace/ USA

Is that correct?
Correct, he wasn't named in the squad for Turkey - http://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/ireland-squad-finalised-for-turkey-friendly -

Defenders: Seamus Coleman (Everton), Cyrus Christie (Fulham), Matt Doherty (Wolverhampton Wanderers), Declan Rice (West Ham United), John Egan (Brentford), Shane Duffy (Brighton & Hove Albion), Ciaran Clark (Newcastle United), Kevin Long (Burnley), Alex Pearce (Derby County), Darragh Lenihan, Derrick Williams (Blackburn Rovers), Greg Cunningham (Preston North End), Enda Stevens (Sheffield United)


or the end of season friendlies http://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/ireland-squad-confirmed-for-friendly-games

Defenders: Seamus Coleman, Matt Doherty, John Egan, Shane Duffy, Kevin Long, Darragh Lenihan, Declan Rice, John O'Shea, Enda Stevens, Derrick Williams, Greg Cunningham

[shakermaker1982]

Think of the children. We really are a laughing stock.

This should have been sorted out behind doors. Like normal adults do. Instead you’ve got a leaked audio from a player and the press rubbing their hands together because our team is so bad the only interesting thing they can talk about is Keane (again).

This is going to rumble on for months.

Why you would make an audio about something when you weren’t even present is beyond me. Good job Ward has gone home.

[shakermaker1982]

Roy Keane also needs to also get some anger management under his belt. Then again surely the FAI knew what they were getting when they appointed him? This is surely not a surprise to anybody that he loses it?

He needs to step aside now otherwise this will overshadow the whole campaign.

[OwlsFan]

On the positive side, if there can be a positive in such things, there doesn't seem to be anything about the players' nationality being questioned which was the rumour.

[Stuttgart88]

O'Neill was discussing things in a press conference earlier. Sky Sports News was showing it. I only caught 2 mins but I presume they'll show more later. Key points here
https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2018/0910/992887-oneill-keane-arter-walters-whatsapp-row/

[Fixer82]

On the positive side, if there can be a positive in such things, there doesn't seem to be anything about the players' nationality being questioned which was the rumour.

And he never questioned McCarthy’s nationality in 2002. He did, however, say he didn’t rate him as a player so perhaps that’s his go-to insult.

Apparently Roy has already spoken to Ward on the matter.

[seanfhear]

Roy Keane is a Dinosaur with no tactical nous .

Martin O’Neill is ; Daddy Dinosaur .

[Cuyahoga]

On Soccer Republic tonight Dave Barry was asked about the row between Arter and Keane but he dodged it, talking about the performance in Cardiff instead. I knew he wasnt going to say anything against his fellow Cork man. Fabio was the other
guest who was critical of Keane but seemed afraid to argue with Dave Barry.

[Closed Account 2]

This is a circus and MON is the ringmaster. We have been tactically terrible since the Euros (remember the Danish manager saying "thanks very much for not marking Eriksen"). We no have players falling out with the management team, players not wanting to play for us anymore. It's beyond parody, time to get someone new.

[geysir]

Kudos to Walters, a man's man, it probably took about 7 players to hold him back while Roy slithered away.

Pity though he didn't get to actually decking Roy.

[brine3]

Monkeano have to go, this is beyond a farce.

We don't need to pay two tactical dinosaurs millions so that they can pretend to be a 1980s Brian Clough.

Just give the job to Michael O'Neill already.

[tricky_colour]

FULL TRANSCRIPT OF STEPHEN WARD'S WHATSAPP MESSAGE 'So basically lads, Roy was getting on to the lads for not training three days in a row. Johnny's got a bad knee so he can't train all the time.
'They were at the training ground and him and Harry were just sitting on the bench, just relaxing and icing themselves and stuff. Roy walked over and was like, 'Why aren't you lads training?' and he blatantly knew why they weren't training because the manager would have told him and they were like, 'We can't do three days in a row'. 'What are you guys? Professional footballers? That's a shambles that is'. The both didn't say anything and Roy walked off and came back over again, 'So when are you going to train, I'm sick of people pulling out with injuries, what the f** is wrong with ya?' and the lads were like, 'Listen, we've got problems, we do it at our clubs, we can't do it'. Roy said something under his breath about Johnny and walked off.
'Johnny lost his head, jumped off the bench and walked after him, grabbed his arm and said, 'What's the story Roy? If you've got a problem say it to my face, don't f**king walk off' and he was like, 'I do have a problem, you're not training, you're getting soft, it's no wonder Dyche doesn't play ya, you're f**king always looking for an argument like you are now' and he was like, 'No Roy, you are the one trying to start an argument', and apparently they were squaring off to each other and having it off and had to be pulled off each other. All the lads were grabbing Johnny away from him... Johnny was going to kill him.
'Roy brought up something about when they were at Ipswich together, they had like a falling out as well. 'You're threatening me again Jon, like you did at Ipswich', and Johnny was like, 'Yeah, are you going to be a s**thouse again and send me my fine in the post rather than say it to my face?'.
'It blew over for a few days and then they flew out to France and Johnny apparently just text Roy was like, 'Listen Roy, I'm in room whatever, if you wanna come up, you've obviously got something on your mind that ****es you off about me because it's causing tension in the squad, let's talk it out'. Apparently Roy just wrote back, 'Nah, I'm just here to help players. People like you... stay out of each other's way. You don't need to reply to this message', and that was that.
'They got back from France and Harry felt his quad in training again. So he wasn't training. Apparently he was getting treatment in the treatment room and Roy walked in and was like, 'When are you going to train you ****ing *****?' and Harry was like, 'What?', and he was like, 'Any chance of you training?'. He explained the situation again and Roy was going off going, 'You're a f**king pr**k, you're a c**t, you don't even care, you don't wanna train', and Harry was just going, 'Roy, I'm not speaking to you like this. I'm not listening to you. You're not the manager. You can't say anything to me'.
'Apparently Roy was going mad getting worse and worse and Harry got up off the treatment bed and was walking back to his room. As he was walking back Roy was shouting down the corridor, 'You're a f**king pr**k, you're a c**t you've been all your life' and that was really it lads.
'It didn't come to blows but basically just Roy losing his head.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6151879/Stephen-Wards-voice-notes-leaked-Roy-Keanes-explosive-rows-Ireland-camp.html

Not the best preparation for the Wales game really was it?

[backstothewall]

This is ridiculous. We need to clear the decks. They both have to go.

[Eminence Grise]

It's pretty obvious that there's a lack of respect on both sides at this stage. Once players start briefing against the management team it's end game stuff. Whether it's a swift break or a lingering one is the only unknown.

[jbyrne]

Just give the job to Michael O'Neill already.

just a tad arrogant thinking he would leave the north for us

[backstothewall]

just a tad arrogant thinking he would leave the north for us

He was very close to taking the Scotland job. I reckon he would take it. But Big Mick is available, obviously wants it and is a C&D winner.

[tetsujin1979]

The North's results over the last 12 months have been along the same lines as our own, and they're facing similar issues with an aging squad.

[Real ale Madrid]

Artur is a bit precious isn't he - since when did an assistant football manager call the shots. Players never take heed of what the assistant thinks. Roy had a go off Walters as well - Walters told him where to go. Mountain out of a molehill. Artur should have shown up last week - ridiculous that he didn't.

[jbyrne]

He was very close to taking the Scotland job. I reckon he would take it. But Big Mick is available, obviously wants it and is a C&D winner.

he lives in Scotland so different. also, nobody really knows how close he was to taking it.... maybe used to get a better NI deal or similar.


The North's results over the last 12 months have been along the same lines as our own, and they're facing similar issues with an aging squad.

saw the norths game saturday.... very unlucky to lose

[tetsujin1979]

saw the norths game saturday.... very unlucky to lose
I saw bits of it myself, and I'd agree with that. I stand by my statement that their recent record isn't much different to ours - only one win in the last 12 months and that was a friendly against South Korea in March. Granted, they had a five game winning streak before that, but three of those were against New Zealand, Azerbaijan and San Marino. The others were a 2-0 win against Norway, and an admittedly impressive 2-0 win against the Czech Republic

[jbyrne]

I saw bits of it myself, and I'd agree with that. I stand by my statement that their recent record isn't much different to ours - only one win in the last 12 months and that was a friendly against South Korea in March. Granted, they had a five game winning streak before that, but three of those were against New Zealand, Azerbaijan and San Marino. The others were a 2-0 win against Norway, and an admittedly impressive 2-0 win against the Czech Republic

yes, would agree with all that although the Czechs are in a bigger mess than us at the moment.... hammered 5-1 against russia last night.

[Fixer82]

Artur is a bit precious isn't he - since when did an assistant football manager call the shots. Players never take heed of what the assistant thinks. Roy had a go off Walters as well - Walters told him where to go. Mountain out of a molehill. Artur should have shown up last week - ridiculous that he didn't.

You would like to think a player would be turning up to prove the assistant manager wrong.
But perhaps there’s more to it.
Disappointing how Keane gets so personal.
Perhaps Harry has stuff going on at home and is just thinking ‘I don’t need this ****.’ He’s had a heavy couple of years and those things don’t disappear overnight.

[osarusan]

Artur is a bit precious isn't he - since when did an assistant football manager call the shots. Players never take heed of what the assistant thinks. Roy had a go off Walters as well - Walters told him where to go. Mountain out of a molehill. Artur should have shown up last week - ridiculous that he didn't.

Harsh I think.

If the FAI medical team are telling a player not to train, the assistant manager has no business criticising/bollocking them over it.

And if players never take heed of what an assistant thinks, you have to wonder what the assistant is doing there.

In this case, I think you could actually ask that question of both the manager and the assistant - what do they actually do there? We hear about what they don't do...so what do they do?

[tetsujin1979]

Artur is a bit precious isn't he - since when did an assistant football manager call the shots. Players never take heed of what the assistant thinks. Roy had a go off Walters as well - Walters told him where to go. Mountain out of a molehill. Artur should have shown up last week - ridiculous that he didn't.

Never? I'd say they do, particularly one that's as involved in the management setup as Keane is. I can't remember any other assistant taking a press conference, I think Tardelli took one with Brady when Trapattoni was taken to hospital, but certainly not as often as Keane has.

I've worked with people who could take harsh criticism, and with people who needed a bit more of the arm around the shoulder, you can do better, type approach, and the best managers were the ones who knew what approach to use on each employee. Keane, by contrast, seems to have one approach that he uses on everyone. If any manager spoke to me the way he spoke to Ward, I'd have reported him and expected severe consequences.

[tetsujin1979]

We could all do with a laugh: https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2018/sep/11/david-squires-on-the-nations-league-and-ireland-roy-keane-row

[Stuttgart88]

Liam Brady wouldn't tolerate Keane's verbals (among other criticisms):

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/roy-keane-whatsapp-harry-arter-row-fight-republic-of-ireland-martin-o-neill-a8532111.html

And Miguel Delaney quotes Keane saying he regrets his old school "play through injury" approach, and saying that in hindsight players like Van Nistelrooy were right not to play when not 100%.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/roy-keane-whatsapp-harry-arter-row-fight-republic-of-ireland-martin-o-neill-a8532111.html

[Real ale Madrid]

Harsh I think.

If the FAI medical team are telling a player not to train, the assistant manager has no business criticising/bollocking them over it.

And if players never take heed of what an assistant thinks, you have to wonder what the assistant is doing there.

In this case, I think you could actually ask that question of both the manager and the assistant - what do they actually do there? We hear about what they don't do...so what do they do?

True, but at the end of the day Keane isn't the boss - he can get hot under the collar all he wants but he is not calling the shots - Artur should have told him to take it up with the Manager if he had a problem - I don't see it as a quitting issue. If Martin was happy with him then that is all that matters.

As for Keane's role - Brian Kerr gave a good description on it last night on TV Virgin Media BE Sport 3 (or whatever the hell the channel is called now). Keane should be taking most of the training, scouting, giving his opinion on personnel on tactics when asked etc. He can voice is displeasure if he wants but the buck stops with O'Neill, which leads me to think that there is more to this - otherwise Artur needs to puff his chest out and get on with it. You either want to play for your country or not.

[seanfhear]

Its not as if Roy Keane is a master tactician . He is more trouble than his worth and god knows Martin O’ Neill needs a John Robertson .

O’Neill without John Robertson ain’t al that anyway .

Is O’Neill just to set in his ways ? Living off the past .

[geysir]

Liam Brady wouldn't tolerate Keane's verbals (among other criticisms):

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/roy-keane-whatsapp-harry-arter-row-fight-republic-of-ireland-martin-o-neill-a8532111.html

And Miguel Delaney quotes Keane saying he regrets his old school "play through injury" approach, and saying that in hindsight players like Van Nistelrooy were right not to play when not 100%.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/roy-keane-whatsapp-harry-arter-row-fight-republic-of-ireland-martin-o-neill-a8532111.html

Probably you intended to post a link to the article quoting Brady (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/i-dont-think-id-be-showing-up-liam-brady-defends-harry-arters-decision-to-stay-away-after-roy-keane-row-37304524.html) in the Indo

[Olé Olé]

Didn't the Indo say last week that Rice will make an announcement over his international future today? The wait is on.

[tetsujin1979]

That was the rumour on Twitter last week

[marinobohs]

Liam Brady wouldn't tolerate Keane's verbals (among other criticisms):

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/roy-keane-whatsapp-harry-arter-row-fight-republic-of-ireland-martin-o-neill-a8532111.html

And Miguel Delaney quotes Keane saying he regrets his old school "play through injury" approach, and saying that in hindsight players like Van Nistelrooy were right not to play when not 100%.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/roy-keane-whatsapp-harry-arter-row-fight-republic-of-ireland-martin-o-neill-a8532111.html

Did Van Nistelrooy dodge friendlies ?

[geysir]

We, or probably most of us, know Keane can be an utter profane slob, but over recent days the person i'm most disappointed in is O'Neill. Maybe the signs were there along but it never dawned on me to question his quality of character. Since Ward's very vivid audio has entered the public domain (with a bullet), his public actions have been to support Keane 100% and belittle Arter for not returning.
In my perspective this is shameful as he has equal care of duty to all, players and staff, not just the cosy triumvirate
Not only do we have a manager who just cannot coach a team effectively within the international framework but one who belittles players who have been profanely abused by his management
. And in mumbling repeatedly about how it was for him in distant European exploits, he has spectacularly failed to grasp the essentials of the issue.
A crummy draw in Poland does not even have a coat of paint gloss over effect.

[Fixer82]

According to O’Neill, it didn’t quite go down the way Ward told it. There’s far more going on in the background than we will ever know.
Judging by the reaction of players against Poland, I’m more hopeful than before.
I imagine O’Neill will deal with this properly in private while backing his assistant publicly.

[jbyrne]

and belittle Arter for not returning.

i didn't see or hear any MON quotes belittling arter in this regard.
do you have any?

[Diggs246]

In fairness to O"neill he said he "respected Arter decision , but did not agree with it"

[OwlsFan]

Mick McCarthy says what a lot of us are thinking: https://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/soccer/mick-mccarthy-opens-up-about-s-relationship-with-roy-keane-and-bonkers-ireland-set-up-870788.html

[geysir]

i didn't see or hear any MON quotes belittling arter in this regard.
do you have any?
I don't know about quotes but that was the distinct tone of much of O'Neill's reply to the Ward Tapes. It was blatant, caustic - mildly disguised.
He went on for ages giving 100% fulsome extravagant praise to Keane, on the other hand he questioned whether the row with Keane was the full reason for Harry's decision, yet he admitted that his 2nd in command had not tried to reconcile the issue with Arter. O'Neill had not even followed up on that row which he had been made aware of, he couldn't be bothered, for some reason or another to make sure that one key member of the team was offered the respect of fair process due to him by management.

Then, in this stage managed interview with Meyler beside him (Meyler's status suitably being elevated from non-player to key non-player), O'Neill blithely referred to a row he had with Meyler, as if that compared with what went down between Keane and Arter. He was implying that Meyler seems alright so why not Harry? something must be defective with Harry? And in another interview he referred to Walters turning up, so why not Harry.

I got the clear impression that O'Neill supported Keane 100% in everything and it was up to the player to get over the rumpus and if his assistant didn't bother to make amends with Arter, so what, it was still the player's defect and Keane's use of foul belittling abuse is fair game, no apology is needed afterwards.

[tetsujin1979]

On Off The Ball earlier, Kilbane shut down the criticism by Richie McCormack of O'Neill's recent mentions of his European Cup medals brilliantly.

<EDIT>

The clip is here: http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/The_Football_Show_on_Off_The_Ball/235169/Revived_West_Ham_and_Liverpool_evolving

McCormack: I don't know if you know this. Martin O'Neill, during his playing career, won two European Cups. So he might have a thing or two to teach you in the dressing room
Kilbane: Rich, will you stop, honestly.
McCormack: Were you aware of that? Like, he hides his light under a bushel, does Martin O'Neill. Two European Cups. Imagine the knowledge he can impart tomorrow in the dressing room as he tries to send you out with a fire in your belly
Kilbane: Yeah, it's two more than me, he played a lot more at that level than I can ever dream of, so I'd look at it like that Richie
McCormack: If only he didn't keep it so quiet

Fair play to Kilbane for not rising to the bait.

[geysir]

The Indo reports (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/peace-talks-between-roy-keane-and-harry-arter-fail-to-materialise-as-latest-ireland-squad-is-set-to-be-confirmed-37383401.html) (source Do'D?) that the Irish management team failed to make an attempt at reconciliation with Arter.
If true, failing to make an attempt after all that waffle from O'Neill is uninspiring, that type of conduct becomes a management normal standard